DEBATING eshaLegal (FROM Historic_ly) [2021-10-17]

me

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is

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oh

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show

you show you

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hello

um

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you

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is

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oh

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show you

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foreign

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um um

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me

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you

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me

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oh

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is

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gonna be

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um

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oh

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so

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i've been

watching

all of my past repeating

there's no

ending

and when i started

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um

[Applause]

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is

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i've

been watching

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that i will be

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at least

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so

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at least

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is

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me

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you know one of the biggest issues with

infrared

like uh the one number one flaw the

number one achilles yield

is that we're just out in the [ __ ]

open you know like

where the [ __ ]

with a globe you know with the essence

just

opening and being

ripped apart and you just see all the

insides it's like you're looking into

our guts

you know

it's just a ball of chaos

right

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like

see this little ball right here

there is so much

profundity

and so much brilliance inside of here

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you know

but you throw this ball into the world

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[Applause]

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and all you get is [ __ ] stupid

[ __ ] people

you

know but does that make us stupid or

does that make them stupid

you know if you go

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in the middle of a [ __ ] uh

you know

if you go in the middle of a bar

and

start preaching about philosophy

aren't you the stupid one he's just a

bunch of in front of a bunch of drunk

stupid [ __ ] people

you know

i don't know we thought about this

like in the very beginning when we made

this show

we were like

should we give them everything like all

the secrets that were marxist leninist

and

we have this

theory and just this ideological or

should we just be like

the

american patriot show you know but we

knew that people

will try to fill in the blanks and

people want to know about communism they

want to know about marxism

but the truth is

we always considered it a curse

we always thought marxism in a way was a

curse

because

it's like it's it just distracts people

from the real world you know and the

real world is

our

you know cultural and

national

and civilizational realities which are

positive realities but marxism is just a

critical method that just is

meant to help you

traverse

and understand that reality right

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so it puts me in a tough spot where it's

like

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you know

it puts me in a tough spot because it's

like

we have no friends no allies

you know

yeah on the one hand

we're marxists we're communists right

just by being open and honest with you

about that fact

we just isolated ourselves from so many

people who would otherwise be our allies

then on the other hand where marxists

were communists

and those people [ __ ] hate us

and the reason they hate us

is because we don't see marxism

as a way of

hating the world and hating reality

but as a way of delivering us to that

reality in a more clear way

than what was previously possible so the

leftists think oh we're extreme

rightists but the extreme writers think

that we're extreme leftists

so it's like we get hate from all sides

you know or i get hate from all sides

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you know if you look at the history of

of communism

it's always been

a history of

slowly

making it less accessible

to everyday people

and that sounds paradoxical but it's the

truth

communist parties just had the tendency

of just

making themselves more elite

right and more accessible to the

initiated only

and the way in which

um

the development of socialism would find

expression and the way people

participate in it is through things like

people's democracies like you have your

flag your national flag just be a

patriot that's the best way to be a

communist that's what they say in china

that's what they said in the eastern

bloc

look you don't have to know about

marxism you don't have to know about

communism just be a [ __ ] patriot love

your people serve your community serve

your family that's it you don't have to

worry about this communism marxism stuff

because it's just gonna [ __ ] confuse

you

it's just gonna confuse you right

and

one of the things i really struggle with

is like

how do you communicate this to like how

on the one hand do i

show someone the

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brilliance of marxism

without

while at the same time deterring them

from falling into the trap of

ideological fanaticism

and

negation you know

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and i know it's by example that's what

we thought too but

you know

i don't know we just

i'm it's like i'm always under attack

by people who are genuinely [ __ ]

stupid right

people who are genuinely just [ __ ]

stupid and

that's the thing in this world that

depresses me the most is stupid

and ugly people just depress me

it's not that the hate gets to me at a

visceral level

it's that it disappoints me so much

that it makes me lose faith and i'm just

like

[ __ ] people are really this [ __ ]

stupid man

and ugly

people are this ugly and this [ __ ]

stupid

you know

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[ __ ] dumb [ __ ] people man

just always under attack all the [ __ ]

time

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and what kills me inside is that

if most people

genuinely saw where i was coming from

and understood where i was coming from

they would literally cry

tears

for all the hate they threw on me

if people saw where i was coming from

and saw how correct i was

they would [ __ ] cry and beg me to

forgive them

for the [ __ ] they [ __ ] put me through

you know

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[Applause]

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gonna go on in four minutes

and then we're gonna be on

stupid no not what they do

i don't know

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i just wish people could de-link

the people that interact with me i

should add should d-link

you know to me

a person who's actually a marxist

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should be a sage you know a marxist

should be like

it should be like a buddhist monk or

some kind of like sufi

um saints or just some kind of

mystic who's just

has that level of insight otherwise just

don't talk about it don't talk about

marxism and all this stuff

right it's it's of no use to you

just be a patriot and be a good human

being

but if you want to get really into like

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the deeper truth of this world

you should have to be initiated and

follow

you know i always think about how

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the way marxism is taught especially in

the west is just so reckless

you just throw people into it

and then if you look at history whenever

it comes to any type of

um

any type of real deep insight into the

world thank you andrew there's like

layers of initiation and there's

a specific pedagogy that involves you

know

meditation all this kind of

there's all sorts of circles and steps

you have to go through before you can

really say

i am a marxist

and i think today

with china's communist party there's a

kind of informal and formal way in which

that that happens the communist party

has a hierarchy

you need to have a certain level of

experience and no and education and then

that's how you climb through the ranks

um

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you know i always used to think

before i started streaming and [ __ ] i

was like how would i

disseminate this insight to other people

right because i can't just put it all

out there

it's going to confuse them right

so i thought about like should marxism

in the west just be like a

some kind of spiritual order right then

i realized you know that would just be a

cult right

but

you could i don't know

disguise it

to a point where

it isn't but

i think in america

i really can't talk to people who who

don't watch david lynch and understand

that if you're an american and you just

don't have

this

almost kind of stoic

or buddhist kind of like

sense that and

the things that you think matter don't

[ __ ] matter

i can't really communicate to you right

if you don't get david lynch you don't

get me and i don't get you and there we

will never find common ground in america

i mean not

in the rest of the world right because

we're in a kind of spiritual wild west

we're in a

wild west of meaning right there's just

this chaos of meaning that exists in

america

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um

inland empire no okay i'm going to join

ash's uh thing

okay so i uh here's what i have to do

apparently let me just

get this here

um

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internet

this properties

okay

this

okay and then i'm going to disable my

camera

the flunk

where is this

this one

there we go it's this

all right and then i'm gonna allow

okay

the input is going to be the yeti

output

going to be default hello okay

name

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okay we're gonna join

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hi everyone um i hope you're having a

good sunday evening or a monday morning

depending on which side of the world

you're in

um

so

i guess i'm debating has even though i

personally think after the revolution we

have to ban debates

because um

debates are uh

yeah debates suck um

and they're kind of pointless other than

but it does help me with the youtube

algorithm so i guess that's good

um

what else that's about it um but yeah so

i'll bring him on

the stream now awesome

so

hi has how are you doing

good how are you

good so you're in la i take it

no i'm in uh michigan oh i'm from

michigan um uh my parents live in

kalamazoo

oh yeah i'm more from eastern michigan

near the dearborn area i used to i i

went to school in ann arbor for i lived

there for like a long long time

interesting um

yeah i uh i know about ann arbor but

yeah i'm more from the dearborn oh yeah

um i worked in about dearborn for about

two years it's actually one of my it's

actually one of the nicer cities in

michigan it's like very cultured there's

a lot of hookah bars and yeah

oh interesting

um

yeah

so uh yeah um i'm trying to remember

what my favorite restaurant was but um

actually royal oak has some really cool

bars too have you been there

yeah a royal looks cool uh ferndale's a

nice place yeah

you know royal oak

in their clothes you know that uh that

whole area is really nice and ann arbor

is nice too you know it's a

cool

it's a college town so i i feel okay

what i think is for people who are like

between the ages of 18 and 25 and our

birth cooler but then as you grow older

people prefer royal oak because it has

that

same cozy setting but it is made for a

little bit of an older crowd

yeah yeah one of the things that's kind

of difficult for me though is ann arbor

to me was very um

uh

it's very uh hippie in fact yeah

annoying it's very

oh yeah like there are a lot of like

boomers

like boomer-ish hippie types who are

living all around that area and it can

be annoying

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are they is there anyone else from

michigan in the chat um

so yeah it's cool well next time i come

to michigan wish you you should come

over to my parents house if uh my mom's

really good at uh cooking um indian food

oh yeah

yeah maybe

yeah um so um

let's see um i i guess since you're the

one who uh started this uh just um like

i think the best thing is why don't you

give i'll give us like your full

position so i understand

what it is that you believe and then we

can discuss it further

sure okay so my position is basically

that um historically speaking uh

the default position for communists

regardless of the country within which

they live is that uh is one of uh

patriotism that the class struggle

necessarily has to be uh

national in form otherwise um

it there's no way for its actual content

to be given expression

so what that means is that even if your

country even if you're a country like

imperial japan or even

if you're living in nazi germany right

german communists resisting the nazis

still must be german patriots and the

same is true for japanese communists

resisting

the government of imperial japan and

opposing the policies of imperial japan

so to me being a patriot is an integral

part of being a communist so much so

that i cannot really see any context or

meaning of being a marxist

or a communist or let alone a marxist

leninist without um

being a patriot and to me being a

patriot doesn't mean

agreeing with your government

or even identifying with your government

or even necessarily identifying with

the you know

institutional foundations of your

government it simply entails a love of

your country and uh your people

um

so but to me i think the american

context

is especially significant because it's

in america that we find

more or less the origin of modern

patriotism in the form of the

the war of independence

which to me i think has a special

significance for communists historically

and um

even today in the present day

uh

so i think i'll just begin with that

okay um so i i think i uh i have just a

few questions to ask

um the first question i'm gonna ask is

you said that imperial japanese and

communists in nazi germany

uh

had some kind of patriotism

but since they both kind of failed

is that something like

why is that something like we should

learn from like why did it fail like

and how is that related to their

patriotism like have we investigated

that

yeah i think it's a long discussion but

i'll give a brief answer for both of

them respectively um i actually think in

an ironic sense german communists failed

to pose a challenge to the nazis

because in a sense they weren't

patriotic enough and what i mean by that

is that they didn't draw enough

support in the deep german countryside

amidst the german peasants and the

german rural masses which the communists

at the time considered not an especially

significant class

because they had this kind of

prejudice from the second international

of stageism that there's just a more

developed capitalism of the proletariat

and this means the peasantry are no

longer a factor

or

relevant

um as far as the history of the imperial

japanese in japan i mean is concerned

i'm not

uh especially familiar with it but i

what i will say is that i think this has

to do with um just the general history

of japanese modernity itself like for

example um

japan

uh was introduced to marxism in the same

way that it was introduced to a whole

lot of other kind of western ideas and

why it is that communist failed in japan

um

it's tough to say but i think the whole

experience of modernization within japan

was bounded up

with political forces that were then

existing so much so that like those same

political forces within uh japan and

imperial japan i'm talking about the

kind of elite that were sent to um

uh be educated in western countries as

well as the industrial buzzy these

actually often were the like the

platform for for marxism to have

relevance like for example these same

people even during the age the time of

imperial japan

uh

they were influenced

i mean like you could see that they were

influenced by marxism in the way that

they were approaching in their economic

policies and their developmentalism and

in the the terminology and phraseology

that they would use to describe

their country and economy so

i think i don't think that but i think

my wider point as far as both of those

cases are concerned

um before we can talk about like what is

a necessary effective strategy to win

power i just

trying to stress that even in countries

whose crimes are so just

uncontroversially egregious even among

you know bourgeois liberals for example

in america even in those extreme cases

it's not enough for germans german

communists to withdraw

their sense of patriotism and love of

country and the same is true for um

for japanese communists

but we still have not addressed how or

okay so okay i guess you might we've

mildly addressed the patriotism so you

think that

because the german communists rejected

the appeal to patriotism they were not

able to recruit enough rural

uh rural

peasantry

in the weimar republic is that what i'm

hearing i just want to make sure i

understand this argument no i think

by patriotism i really do mean um

tapping into the real

uh foundations of the german nation and

the country itself in the form of the

german peasant which was a more which

and every peasantry in every country is

going to be more national in character

inherently

hold on um one question though um so the

german country as we know in the weimar

republic was kind of created by

basically

the treaty of versailles where they kind

of chopped off different areas but

before then the peasantry in germany

felt patriotism to the bavarish

kingdom and i know this is because i

read the book about hitler's trial so it

was it seems like

how could they feel

patriotic towards a country that didn't

really exist for two years and

most of these german peasantry felt

patriotic for the bavarish kingdom

and that's why they were and they were

mainly catholic and the people in the

north uh who were the communists were

mainly from the former persian empire so

this whole patriotism thing is a little

confusing to me so can you clarify how

this works with the

irish kingdom which really yeah about is

the fact that bavaria was more rule in

general it was less development no no no

i'm saying that let me just get the

quote uh that i was uh i i read from

david king's book but go ahead well

while i get the code quote continue to

make your point yeah um by peasantry

right

um it could obviously mean a lot of

things

um

usually it just refers to the material

the the masses who form the material

basis of the country in the state but as

far as the origins of germany as a

country this actually has its origins in

the at least the 19th century

um

there is a strong sense of a german

country even among

the bavarians

and throughout the constituent um you

know provinces of uh

the weimar republic and his before then

the german empire

it's only with the weimar republic that

you have of the for the first time an

explicit modern german state but the

question of there being a german people

and a german country

um

was not really you know

that much in dispute it's not like

germany or the idea of germany was just

invented with the wyman republic after

all the weimar republic adopted the flag

of the um the german revolution of the

48th you know during the spring time of

springtime of nations absolutely so and

the german national project was a

project of the german people right um

including and uh you know

but okay so this is what i read from the

book um the trial of adolf hitler he

says um but by

okay hold on um

it says that by november 7th however

hitler had changed his mind he had

received word of gustavon carr rally

following the night of the burger brow

and he feared that this event might

pre-figure a major announcement possibly

unveiling carr's own plans to march on

berlin or even declare bavarian

independence hitler

but even if the speech produced no major

results which was more likely hitler

predicted that all prominent leaders of

the bavarian regime would be together at

the beer hall so it seems like hitler

was appealing to the sentiments of not

the german nation but bavaria

uh like of the bavarian um

kingdom

uh according to at least david king's

book the trial of adolf hitler

so

how can he so

it seems like

there wasn't really

okay so can you like try to explain how

can you kind of clarify

what is the discrepancy between what i

am reading from the book written by

david king called the trial of adolf

hitler versus um

the beer hall push it's a trial it's the

beer hall portion trial of adolf hitler

versus what you're saying about german

patriotism because like i said it it

seems like the peasantry which is the

rural population of germany who kind of

earned their living

not unlike the gig workers of today

um they were it seems like they were

upset

at the versailles treaty rightly because

it was very punitive and it cut off like

them from their relatives and a lot of

them had relatives in what is now known

as austria or they are in what used to

be the austria-hungarian kingdom so it's

a little confusing to me

yeah i mean it's pretty clear that the

treaty of versailles um

at the national level of the you know

germany as a whole i would imagine

um

germany as a whole didn't really exist

until after the treaty and that's how

when it was decided right

because it used to be the german empire

and then there was the austria-hungarian

empire yeah um

there was still um a german country

right there was still there was the

german empire yes and but bavaria wasn't

part of that was it

right but the german people um

but the german people you mean the

german language speaking people that's

what the german people who were the

focal point of the revolutions of 48 and

throughout the history of 19th century

german nationalism which you can even

say dates back to the napoleonic wars i

mean that's they're germans

um

well it seems like from my understanding

of history it seems like there is a big

german language speaking population in

austria-hungary the persian empire the

german empire bavaria and believe it or

not even in the russian empire for

example the very first adherents to the

um nazi party were actually baltic

germans who were upset about losing

their slaves in the bolshevik revolution

so the weimar republic for the first

time established a german nation state a

statement did the weimar republic

but wasn't that why mark as republic

essentially established

by france england and america of course

yeah so so then like they cut off pieces

of that used to be that had a like in

straussburg that had a majority

german-speaking population that just

went in rohr valley that went to france

right so the decisive thing is that the

weimar republic however um

abysmal and you know offensive and

unacceptable the conditions of its

establishment were to the german people

at the time was the first modern state

of the german people and by modern state

i mean um

a state in the modern sense like the

french state after the french revolution

and the american state of the american

revolution um a state that you know had

not only had a constitution but was kind

of um

uh

had a kind of formal rule of law and it

was basically a state in which all

citizens were equal before the law and

there was no

recognized distinct distinctions uh

according to the law

uh the basic universalistic kind of

modern state for the german people so to

me um i think the wider point is that

but wait the manner by which one second

one second um so i'm again this is from

the same book the trial of adolf hitler

by david king and this is what he said

the berlin after all the bloodshed and

sacrificed the berlin government dared

to sign the treaty of versailles at a

stroke of pen germany would be stripped

of 10 of its population 13 of its

territories and

all of its overseas colonies

so

and for many germans it was a piece of

shame and unparalleled national

humiliation

the monarchy and great power status were

gone and germany was no longer the

continent's richest and most powerful

state oh and then when it reached with a

map of europe and handed over

german-speaking populations to france

belgium denmark then recreated the

kingdom of poland in the new state of

czechoslovakia

and a white gulf indeed seemed to

separate the victor's lofty ideals and

their actions and to the horror of many

monarchists and militaries alike german

was a republic for the first time

so it seems like um

in fact

none of the parties could actually

appeal to german patriotism but in fact

there were some that appealed to

beverish separatism and others

wanted to kind of

appeal to like a let's

move on forward so i'm just a little

confused so can you try to explain this

again yeah

so since the weimar republic was the

first german

state right proper the state for the

german people

um a democratic state for the german

people so to speak

um the role of communists would have

then been to um

be german patriots in the sense of being

the best representatives

of the people and the country

except no but there was no german

patriotism because like i said

look it if you look at the literature

back then the spd did not appeal to the

german patriotism in fact the nsdp

the lebanese realm

propaganda was literally to give most of

the baltic germans and the persian

junkers

back their territory yeah so the reason

for that and i actually addressed this

in a debate before

was because the nazis were unable to

carry out the necessary land reform

within germany and appeal to the actual

german no no they were not

unable but rather they were funded

exclusively by baltic germans who did

not want land reform but they wanted

their old lands in estonia yeah i

understand i understand yeah so the

nazis so so wait wait wait you said they

wanted to carry are not able to carry

out but they never promised land reform

what they promised was laban's room

which is new land the point will be

clarified very crystalline okay okay no

worries yeah so the nazis

um had no interest

in carrying out a land reform within

germany right correct and yet there was

an issue of a um the land the land that

was owned within germany being

concentrated within the hands of the

small uh landowners and nobility and

yonkers and all those kinds of people

right

so what the nazis did

was that to appeal to the national

feeling and sentiment of the german

people who after undergoing

proletarianization wanted to return to

some kind of uh you know middle class

normality or something like that they

promised them the land in the east

okay but the reason for this is because

they were unable to engage in the kind

of patriotic class struggle that was

necessary within

uh germany that would overthrow the

landowners and the elements of the

ancient regime in favor of the german

people but wait the nazi party was

created essentially by the bourgeoisie

so what we see i thought it was created

by land baltic uh land well we'll hold

on we wanted so in 19 okay so in 1918 a

lot of the baltic germans were the first

funders so alfred rosenberg we have an

entire episode about this um

where we talk about the land burgess

family it's kind of funny

listen to our episode about lithuania

and the forthright

but yes so the first wave was in 1918

where the first adherence between 1918

and in 19 was lower the baltic germans

were mainly the funders and they were

the petty bourgeoisie

but then

around 1922 that's when they were found

the right character which is hitler and

then the industrialists

wanted

to

basically also kind of get their

territory back

so they were the second wave of the

bigger funders so now um so the nazi

party never claimed to

have a class struggle in fact if we read

michael parenti's

i think there's a really big uh

miscommunication i guess that's going on

here because i'm not trying to say the

nazis were engaging in a class struggle

i'm trying to say that because the nazis

were not engaging in a class struggle

they still at the same time had to um

displace the class struggle that was

objectively

a reality within germany in the form of

the german people's striving to respond

to the modern predicament of

proletarianization and they did this

through le benzram which is promising

the german people

land to the east and this effectively

extinguished the class struggle within

germany between the german people and

the monopolists landowners and so on and

so on

um who were you know uh owned most of

the land within germany as well as the

monopolists

who you know possessed a stranglehold on

german industry at the expense of the

democratic petty puzzlazzi

so

when i say that the german communists

were not patriotic enough i just mean to

say that they focused too exclusively on

the urban proletarian class struggle

within the cities but didn't recognize

the

need for the application of the insight

of leninism according to which

the class struggle has to take the form

of a kind of united front and even a

popular front in an alliance with the

quote-unquote democratic party

this is lenin's phrase for the uh

for the elements hold on hold on hold on

i'm a little confused so you said that

they had to appeal to the german

patriotism but now it seems like you've

redefined the patriotism to mean uniting

the peasantry and the proletariat which

is

which no one has any um

objections to

in a sense communists were not patriotic

enough

okay but but then we kind of try

patriotic to which country that's a

little confusing to me because germany

as in the weimar republic

as a whole

how can they be patriotic to a country

that didn't really exist like i think

you're confusing a country with the form

of statehood and form of government okay

so what is the difference can you please

enlighten me on this one yeah

what's the difference yeah yeah okay um

a

state or a government relates to the

country in the same way that a

superstructure relates to the base

um

a government in a state it's i'm going

to actually just quote stalin actually

um i think it would just be better okay

which piece is it

so

stalin's quote is basically the hitler's

come and go the german people and the

german state remain so the form of state

in the form of government

may come and go but there is an

objective german country

that you know manages to possess it you

know a kind of material reality and

objectivity that's not reducible to the

ideological political and super

structural form that it's going to take

hold on um you also said that the german

communi but okay i just want to clarify

by german communists do you mean the kpd

or the sdp jpd

okay so you're saying that the kpd

didn't appeal to the rural population

yes i think they had it well mostly it

was that they had an ex they had a very

narrow view of application and ultra

left application of the uh the class

struggle okay because um let's i'm just

looking at um

the issue with the kpd is that it came

to a point where it had to exclusively

draw its ranks from the most marginal

and desperate elements of the population

the unemployed

even the lumpin and so on and so on and

it was never actually able to constitute

itself as a kind of patriotic or

national whatever you want to call it a

people's movement within germany it had

to confine itself always to a kind of

minority it was never able to see

achieve the kind of gromski and hegemony

over the people of germany hold on one

second i'm a little confused okay so

let's look at the election results um so

in

in the um

1924 um

uh may elections

um let's okay so let's look at the may

1924 elections

let me see i'm gonna send it to janet so

that she can dm it to you or something

um

because

it

uh

it seems like

okay so let's see um

see it seems like majority of the kpds

um here i'm gonna send it to it seems

like the majority of the kpd's um

uh

actually uh votes came from the rural

areas in 1924.

like if you were to talk about the sbd

yes i totally agree with you um at the

sbd uh definitely even in donna hersch's

book where she talks about how the sbd

failed she talks about the detail of how

they just ignored the rural um

are you talking about bavaria 19 no no

i'm talking about the german the the

weimar republic's federal you said that

the

kpd you did not appeal to the rural

population right but then i am looking

at the 1924

weimar republic federal elections and it

seems like the districts that the kpd

won came exclusively in the rural area

so which districts were those located

here i just sent it to janet um she'll

share it with

with us are they by chance uh from

bavaria

no bavarians went mostly center okay um

i wasn't actually familiar with the

election of 1924 okay but then you said

but you did claim that the cape yeah

yeah but it's actually besides the point

because no it's not because you

literally claimed that the kpd

did not appeal to the rural population

let's be logical here right no no

logical there's so there's two important

points though that make that not an

essential point right the first one okay

the first one lies in the fact that even

if by happenstance the kpd did receive

the majority of its support from

peasants in the election of 1924 this

doesn't necessarily mean that the kpd

was effectively or correctly appealing

to them it could just be that for

reasons that it was unable to articulate

and distill the significance of peasants

were swung over to the kpd so it doesn't

actually prove that they came okay so

then in the december

okay so it could be

did not correctly uh

understand this like this has happened

in the history of the american communist

party as well and the communist

experience of communists in the west

elsewhere as well is that they receive

support from a certain population and

they somehow are confused about why

aren't we winning from the urban

industrial proletariat we need to go

hard to win them for more hold on so

oftentimes theoretical dogmatism can get

in the way of that but regardless of the

situation of the kpd in 1924 what i'm

talking about is the decisive situation

after 1929 when the nazis the nazi party

rose to power and the ways in which the

kpd had to compete with them so

no in 1924 and the 1930s are not the

same time period okay so if you could

find me evidence that in the 1930s the

kpd maintained the majority of support

hold on hold on no no what you don't

understand is that the nazis in 1933 the

minute okay so the first thing have you

read the book four years of political

murder

um

so what it shows you that in that

between 1918 and

1922 there was basically a lot of murder

of left like other people who were

members of the kpd and they went mostly

unpunished um but then what

happened is that according to donna

hirsch's let me just read you this

segment oh here you can continue to talk

while i find the irrelevant segment from

donna hirsch's book but this is what she

said about the uh kpd what happened in

1920 after 20 1928 um so let's see

give me one second um so

1924 was like the only time that um

okay so

basically in 1924 like the only time

they kind of had a fair chance to run

the election because i'll as like in

in 19 um

the spd in 1924

28 basically had um a thing where they

wanted to eliminate um fascist violence

so they did this um thing where they

were like oh we're gonna eliminate

extreme violence on the left and the

right and then cut crack down on a lot

of the kpd so they weren't really given

a chance to run in 1928 so and then in

1933 they were just completely all of

them were arrested and sent to a

concentration camp so okay so there's

two things right the first thing is that

we can clearly discern

um all of that aside i don't know no no

we can't discern all of that aside

because you just claimed that the kpd

failed to appeal

no no of course they failed but first

thing you claimed was that the kpd did

not appeal to german patriotism and then

you said that they that that's why they

weren't able to get the

rural bourgeoisie population actually

never in quotes and this is an important

distinction i never said they didn't

appeal to german patriotism patriotism

is an idea it's an etiology i said they

weren't patriotic enough which is that

they weren't effective enough in

relating to the national

realities of the german country they

didn't appeal to the german people

enough not necessarily to an idea

of the country but the country itself

which would make them patriots now

patriotism is a kind of abstraction

that's not really my point i mean

uh ernest talman had many patriotic you

know quotes and he had a lot of

patriotic sentiment but that doesn't

actually reflect the overall policy of

the kp at the time which was caught in a

kind of ultra-left confusion and the

reason why

i'm being a little bit dismissive of the

points you're bringing up is we can

actually discern a shift in policy not

only among the german communists but the

entire common turn from the third period

to the period of the popular front and

the popular front was an admission and a

recognition

uh of the fact that the class struggle

has to be national in form and has to

uh

requires acquiring hegemony over the

people of your country not just

um

the industrial proletariat

and and finally

i think this is the nail in the coffin

of

the relation to patriotism is that when

the communist party took power in

germany and eastern the communist party

never took power in germany except for

like

like literally never took power in

germany

so the what was what party took power

after world war ii in eastern

spd the socialist democrat

the deutsche uh the social uh the

socialist social democratic party was

the one that's absolutely not the case

the east german east germany was a

communist state okay no no we're talking

about

wrong war we were talking about world

war one world war ii is what i said okay

world war ii happened after the soviets

liberated

germany and so that had nothing to do

with the german communist party it had

everything to do with the soviets so

that yeah

so if you have to wait for the soviets

to liberate germany wait one second okay

we don't even know what we're talking

about right

they promoted a love of country and a

love of people not just the germany mind

you the after they took power but

germany as a whole in its history the

germany of beethoven the germany of uh

kant and hegel and the germany of even

people like martin luther and frederick

the great and people like that so i

think that's just

like it just settles it completely when

they actually got power i mean they were

actually when they got power

right okay so what you said is that um

but okay i'm reading one of your older

tweets and what you said is not is that

um if you

it seems like you seem to think that you

need patriotism to get power right but

if it's after you get power um it is

completely different because then

um

uh

then of course yes after you have a

country that's a communist country

what you're basically trying to say is

that well the point is invalid because

it's the soviets who allowed them to

acquire power but i didn't breathe

to demonstrate the necessary no no it's

after okay there's a big difference

between

after you have a country versus when you

don't have a country but if that was the

case they would only be patriots uh for

the germany that's ruled by communists

exactly that's exactly because a purpose

of a state is to oppress one class over

another and the only state that is worth

being the patriot over is

the only country that's being is is a

dictatorship

sentiment

or the germany

that existed before the communists took

power okay can you show me a citation

for this one please i want to see like

some documents flag the flag came from

the german revolutions of 18 no no no

that's not enough okay show me a

citation that shows you like why there's

a flag like i i've been showing you all

my really okay i should yeah you have to

because i should literally read out of

books

i know you're an educated person do you

really need a citation yes i do because

i

of course i do because i gave i keep

citing all my sources so you should cite

your sources too but i i actually was

here to have a debate with you not the

uh

well it's okay otherwise it's just a

free form

odyssey not

a harry potter duel when we shout the

quotes at each other and shout phrases

at each other well unfortunately you

can't just make up crap right

you like you literally can't make up

crap so let's start over again okay are

you okay hold on are you alleging that i

am making up that german communists

promoted a general sense of german

national product i don't know why the

general sense of german you keep

changing okay i don't understand what in

general

german history as a whole not just okay

well i don't understand what you mean so

can you send me an example

okay i gave you the example of the flag

how about the marches they retained the

prussian marches on hold on hold on i

don't know what depression okay what are

your question marches on hold on so tell

me what about celebrated the anniversary

of the protestant reformation they

celebrated people like mark okay hold on

what is oppression march

sorry what you said they retained the

price so what is special about the what

is the president march and how is that

different than a general military march

because it's a uniquely prussian

national forum

how so what does that mean i don't i

don't know anything about it

form of

it's a form of military marching that

originates in prussia

uh okay so it seems like according to

the 1917

i'm sorry according to the new york

times from august 9 1979

it says that they used the persian

prusion march to sidestep the specter of

the wermacht era so it was like a it was

a way to it was not quite the person it

was a way to like they could have

invented their own communist march that

is pure pure and devoid of the stamp of

ugly national you know patriotic

realities but they decided not to and

why is it on the anniversary of the

protestant reformation they celebrated

martin luther why is it that there was

such a strong sense of german national

feeling and patriotism under east

germany so much so that because it was a

dictatorship of the proletariat and they

wanted to preserve it it wasn't just the

germany ruled by the communists that

they were celebrating they were

celebrating the german history the

german

okay that part i'm not a hundred percent

sure

i don't think you're educated on the

matter if well well yeah exactly so

educate me and show me

if you're not can you tell me more

clearly

east germany celebrated the history of

non-communist germany as well i don't

know yet can you tell me about it so

that i can learn about it because i

don't know anything about this so tell

me

okay well um the german communists in

their education and in their media

communications promoted a general sense

of national pride and patience it's

sounds like you're reading are you

reading from wikipedia because i'm not

like it seems like you are a word salad

the difference between you and me is

that i have not had to consult one

external source throughout this i know

that's because i don't [ __ ] with my

audience i make sure that they know

you don't [ __ ] you just quote a

bunch of irrelevant [ __ ] that has

nothing to do with it no it's not no no

it's very relevant no it's not relevance

okay absolutely not relevant so you are

unable to explain it beyond a same set

repeat like acting like a robot okay

let's try this i'm so confident in this

that i think if you deny i don't care

about your confidence i just want um to

i want you to explain

how what the uh uh

general sense of like okay so you

how is celebrating okay so first of all

i don't even understand what you don't

seem to

have a very can you explain what um

patriotism is while i could drink some

cider so

uh explain how they can you just explain

to me like i'm a four-year-old kid and i

know nothing about easter west germany

just explain how uh they used um

patriotism is a general love of country

and people and a country and a people as

the quote by stalin i mean alludes to

okay okay so it's okay so then in east

germany you're saying that

because

every time you ask me a question you

just cut me off after two oh sorry okay

i'll mute myself while i drink some um

cider so go ahead please drink your

cider so i can talk

um

a love of country and people and a

country and a people are not reducible

to the political or ideological form

of their expression in the form of the

state which means there is an

objectivity to countries and nations and

peoples that's not reducible to

ideologies and into theories i mean

stalin makes this clear and his writings

on the national question and stalin just

said it directly the hitlers come and go

but the german people in the german

state survive well hitler was in control

of the german state so how could stalin

be alluding to the idea of a german

state and a german people that's just

not reducible to the form it had taken

at the time well because he acknowledges

the objectivity of national realities

and east germany

uh likewise acknowledged this

in the form of

acknowledging the history traditions and

realities of the german people

even above and beyond the form it was

taking at a time which was led by the

communists the communists didn't just

promote communist germany

they promoted a sense of pride in the

history of germany as a whole even

before the communists took power

again i don't understand

how

you can promote the sense of a history

of a thing that didn't really exist

until 1918 so that's a little confusing

to me so

what

did exist before 1918.

no the roman empire existed like the

german-speaking population where there's

no german nation-states but there was a

german country and there was a german

people

okay so what is the difference between a

nation-state or a country

sure a nation-state

um refers to a political form right so a

nation state is a political institution

and it's a political form and it's a

definite territory instantiated by a

state a country on the other hand refers

to a deeper reality of the way in which

the manner by which a people reproduce

themselves material materially

a common language a common um

culture a common history and a in many

ways a common identity those things

preceded the weimar republic by hundreds

and hundreds of years

the german ethnos so to speak had

existed for much longer than the german

uh

nation states

uh

wait a minute okay so i'm getting a

little lost here

um

so

i thought your original argument is that

you needed um

patriotism

to get the

prolific terry um it's actually not a

utilitarian um

thing it's like it's only for the

proletariat to do this

i don't believe you understand that

marxism doesn't isn't about creating

forms from scratch it's about correctly

identifying and distilling

uh the content of the form which is the

class struggle which means marxists

don't want to use patriotism

or something marxists actually are

patriots they literally are patriots who

do love their country and their people

uh it's not like a cheap uh

scheme wait a minute wait a minute but

did like

wait they do love their country after

the revolution or before they run before

okay

um but how is i guess

countries are not created by political

will they're material realities they

okay wait

you're not voluntary constructions

created by uh ideologists they're

material realities that exist across

history that are they're not voluntary

correct they are just uh

there are political boundaries sometimes

um

maybe are you confusing maybe national

identity with country maybe i'm trying

to understand no even more so a country

is uh more authentic because a nation in

many ways is oftentimes

only finally given expression in the

form of a nation-state

whereas a country is more broad there's

this kind of soviet country there's a

russian country which is not reducible

to any russian nation state there's an

american country that's not reducible to

any kind of uh american nation state so

and if anything country is much more

dense and much more uh

real than nations are

uh

okay now i've lost track of your entire

argument so can you

it seems like you wanted to appeal to

proletarian like okay so can you kind of

go through what your argument was i

guess because none of this is actually

making sense to me so

why do you say um like what do you okay

so in your vision how do you make a

revolution happen with um american

uh patriotism and uh there's a question

um

from ella lme he said what is marxist

patriotism has

so which one would you like me to answer

first answered uh elements question

first what is it okay um

marxist patriotism

is not different in essence from the

authentic everyday real patriotism of

the people the only difference in the

case of marxist is that they correctly

distill

and possess insight into the material

realities

the class realities and so on and so on

historical realities that underlie the

development of a country

so in that sense um

uh and by abuse of uh dialectical

thinking and dialectical material is

thinking so there is no

there's just like there's no proletarian

culture according to lenin there's no

exclusive marxist patriotism the point

is

must be patriots

okay i thought lennon in the national

question said that the proletarian

should create their own culture but

because culture requires

uh some kind of state power or hegemony

to transmit over a long period of time

so he said that there were some

expressions of proletarian um culture

but

um

so um

so

so yeah but on top

but

i'm still confused

uh completely rejected prolet cult which

was

a short for proletarian culture

complete folly and a fabrication in

which piece because they didn't exist

yet yeah um it's called by the time it's

called came into being lenin completely

rejected them

uh wait okay no but

okay i think

uh

it was an actual phenomena movement

called the movement for proletarian

culture politics called it wasn't what

you're doing

culture but it was it was called prolet

cult which was a movement to create a

proletarian culture from scratch and

annihilate the previous

bourgeois and

past classical culture and whatever

lenin completely rejected this he said

the most important thing for our country

is for people to be a cultured and

educated in the treasures of mankind and

in the works of uh modern civilization

we're gonna create our own thing

completely from scratch we're going to

possess continuity with the treasures of

the past culture

okay i am

reading this um are you talking about

his piece from october 8 1920

uh i'd have to double check okay so it

says it isn't let me just let's just

read this quickly it is necessary to

draft a resolution of the proletarian

prolet called congress should drawn up

with the utmost urgency that it should

be endorsed by the central committee in

time to have it vote at this very

session of the prolet called on behalf

of the central committee it should be

submitted not late okay hold on um

uh i'm confused a little bit um

so the relevant passage here is that um

marxism has won its historical

significance as the ideology of the

revolutionary military because far from

rejecting the most valuable achievements

of the bourgeois epoch it has on the

contrary assimilated and refashioned

everything of value in the more than 2

000 years of the development of human

thought and culture

and then he said

ad hiring unswervingly to this stand of

principle the all-russia protest called

congress rejects in the most resolute

manner theoretically

as theoretically unsound and practical

harm of all attempts to invent one's own

particular brand of culture to remain

isolated and self-contained

organizations to draw a line dividing

the field of the work

or to set up a proleta called autonomy

within establishment under the people's

so it seems like

um well

it seems like um

basically

okay so

it seems like

what he's talking about is basically

like a culture that's detached from the

proletarian

he's referring to the past two thousand

years of uh human culture and uh

achievements

uh

this okay but this still okay now it

seems like we're veering way off topic

okay let's go back to where you're

saying

um

so another quote

since we're quoting um this however does

not mean we can restrict ourselves to

communist conclusions and learn only

communist slogans you will not create

communism that way you can only become a

communist only when you enrich your mind

with the knowledge of all treasures

created by mankind

okay um but that doesn't bear in mind

hold on example we talk about

proletarian culture we shall be unable

to solve this problem unless we clearly

realize that only a precise knowledge

and transformation of the culture

created by the entire development of

mankind will enable us to create a

proletarian culture the latter is not

the latter is not clutched out of thin

air it is not an invention of those who

call themselves experts in proletarian

culture that is all nonsense proletarian

culture must be a logical development of

the store of knowledge mankind has

accumulated under the yoke of capitalist

landowner and bureaucratic society all

these roads have been leading and will

continue to lead up to proletarian

culture and the same way as political

economy is reshaped by marx has shown

what human society must arrive at shown

us the passage to the class struggle to

the beginning of the proletarian

revolution and this is his to the tasks

of the okay hold on it says all

experience of modern history

so um for example um you think that uh

so how would like i guess the flag of

the east india company modified uh

like how does that

relate the east india company was a

private uh yeah but the us flag is

basically the east india company flag

modified um literally

so i just don't understand yeah you

clean you you want to use these symbols

the similarity between the east india

company flag and the american flag has

no bearing on the actual real world so

okay hold on hold on hold on okay you

made a tweet where you think you okay

people who do you know why there is a an

american flag

all the crimes against um the um

literally the american flag is there

because they appropriated the east india

company um flag so

i'm actually not aware of that being the

reason for the american flag okay i am

aware of that because i read gerald

horn's the counter-revolution of 1776.

so it is literally the appropriation

okay um well let's look it up since

we're consulting external sources oh

yeah we have to of course otherwise it's

just a free-form jazz odyssey

okay isha um

your mistake lies precisely in the fact

that you see no other nations except

bourgeoisie nations and consequently

no i know that america no i understand

the

reason why you should be very patriotic

in the soviet union or east germany or

china but okay you have overlooked the

who arose out of yes

but those nations existed they arose out

of the ruins and in fact that's the east

germany national anthem

you are talking about patriot texts hold

on hold on i'm answering wait one second

i'm just answering this one user okay

thank you chris by the way i really

appreciate this um so what i guess um

uh

but what i feel like often with the uh

revolutionary patriotism stuff is that

you guys are

uh wanting to feel patriotic about a

nation that doesn't exist like the one

in the future of post-socialist

america that may or may not ever exist

so like why shouldn't i just feel

patriotic for the united federation of

planets if this is the case i'm just

curious

okay but go on

if you if you want to address chris's

comment you can continue

to go ahead yeah i'm doing i did some

small preliminary research on the

question of the origin of the american

flag

and it turns out that this is actually

uh controversial some have actually

disputed a direct connection between the

two others speculate that the main

reason why uh there's a resemblance is

because initially the unit the flag of

the grand union

was not actually going to be a separate

state from the united kingdom so

adopting that flag was a symbol of

loyalty to the british crown

uh from the very at the very beginning

um

but

the after the declaration of

independence obviously it no longer took

on that significance but it still became

you know the way in which things become

the symbols of countries isn't some like

intentional artistic design that adheres

all of the uh

you know intentions and meaning it's a

completely arbitrary process why are

some random symbols the symbol of

countries and nations well it's a

completely arbitrary thing it doesn't

have to do with the fact of what it

comes to symbolize and comes to mean

through the course of history

okay well um the american flag i mean

would often for indigenous people

symbolize oh we are taking your land

we're planting our frag here you're

gonna all die and we're going to kill

you all of it i mean so

at least symbolize that for indigenous

people and i wouldn't fault them for

feeling that way when looking at the uh

okay so then for what about okay so but

then the the then the duty of communists

would be to give the flag a different

meaning not based on moralizing and

virtue signaling to indigenous people

but by assuming leadership over their

country such that as the leaders of

their country they can make right by

indigenous people okay so you are saying

that we should significantly okay so you

hold on you're saying that it is the

indigenous people that need to adjust

as opposed to the genocide i'm actually

not prescribing anything to indigenous

okay so then why they have their own

leadership

and they have their own organizations

which i have no plans on intervening in

i'm an american okay so you are

basically so like i'm gonna give you

meaning in the politics of my country

and my people and so far

i

aspire to do right by them and make

right by them but i can't expect them to

trust me at this stage so i could just

hope that in the future american

communists leading a communist america

can earn their trust

by through practice asha and not through

virtual signaling uh by burning the

american flag through practice by

actually never using advocates

to give indigenous people to do right by

them to give them the land that they

require in demand to give them the

reparations that they see fit to uh

that are necessary for their people's

development and the necessary autonomy

and even even if if they so deem it fit

to complete territorial and political

secession from the united states so be

it right hold on hold on but the flag of

the united states doesn't only mean

what indigenous people view it as it

also has the significance of being the

symbol of america as a country and thus

the immigrant what is america as a

country besides um

uh

no seriously what is america as a

country besides slavery and genocide and

colonialism um i don't see it america as

a country can be defined even from the

best examples of the uniquely american

philosophy of pragmatism that's how

bolshevik sought it's not uniquely

american if the bolsheviks used it that

means it's not uniquely american no the

bolsheviks directly referred to it as

american they said the bolshevik spirit

is basically a combination of american

pragmatism

and the russian uh striving for uh what

is it uh

iron will so i don't i forget exactly

what they meant on the russian side but

the bolsheviks often made reference to

americanism and henry ford and the

american pragmatic experience lord and

all those kinds okay

um the bolsheviks were very much

uh interesting okay hold on one second

okay somebody asked why am i okay my

parents moved here because my dad had a

phd and the american government needed

his phd so that he could teach her but

most people hold on one second um and

the reason why you should read lenin's

um capitalism and immigration to

understand this

um anyways

okay sorry okay so neil has a question

for you haas has are you familiar with

gerald horn his thesis of the

e

india company flag being the basis of

the us flag is obvious look at yeah but

i'm also reading uh

uh

other historians who reject this view

when they say that who whose other

historian disgrace um uh his name that

i'm reading now is um

vikram doctor

and he's writing for the economic times

arguments against

flags could be avoiding hubris countries

and governments feel strong about their

flags um

hold on

others simplify the design into a

diagonally quartered flag with some

elements

hold on let me get the exact one east

india

east india company's flag dates from the

17th century long before the american

flag was even thought of and originally

seems to have been just red and white

stripes at some point the canton was

added

uh was in office

transferred

not the red and white company flying

through reddit flags on the ship's

dangerous cross in early 1616

um

american i'm sorry i'm doing all this

research like oh no take your time we

have all day long don't worry um

the problem with faucets theory as

uranus can see is that there is no clear

written evidence

that the americans took the company's

flag as their model yet none of the

theories put forth for the origins of

the flag are particularly plausible

either and fawcett's company flag theory

does at least have a strong visual link

it may never be firmly established yet

so it's basically we don't really know

maybe no but he said it it it made it

has a strong visual link so he's

literally repeating neil's argument

where if you just put it next to each

other so right um but then again these

like these flags and their design and

their use are like really ambiguous like

why is it red white and blue the the

colors of uh

you know britain it's just these are

because um you have to consult a

historian of the history of flag design

yeah understand this it's not

necessarily a statement that they're

making that oh we are the east india

company's successor i mean by no means

can you jump to the conclusion that

that's the significance the similarity

of the flags has

okay um so chris marlock has a comment

hold on one second

the american behavior which has been

adopted by the

okay so that's a lane quote um um let me

um read that so uh uh uh can you uh the

american people have a revolutionary

tradition which has been adopted by the

best representatives of the american

proletariat have repeatedly expressed

continuous solidarity of the bolsheviks

but okay um but i don't understand

i guess in that quote he's referring to

the

1776 and he elaborates it in the same

piece so is this is this from the letter

to the american workers yes

okay but he okay so also in the letter

to the american workers he says that

your every dollar is drenched in blood

oceans and oceans of blood so how do you

i'm so hold on one second um okay hold

on um what does that have to do with the

point about patriotism i mean well if i

mean if you're every dollar is how do

you feel

makes it very clear where he stands

on the american war of independence and

the history of the american country as a

revolutionary

world historical event in history that

communists draw inspiration from around

the world and lenin even goes so far to

say in that piece

that the american proletariat will be

inheriting the example of 1776 the

revolutionary of 1770s continuing that

tradition by opposing the imperialist

bouzouzi of their own

almost country to how american

libertarians

rule libertarians in the united states

um

oppose imperialism and the american uh

you know they don't the overgrowth of

the american deep state and the federal

government on the basis of an explicit

american patriotism

it seems that uh even alex jones is

closer to lenin than you are in a way

okay hold on let's read this um we have

a question for you again there's a haas

clip where he said we shouldn't use the

lgbt flag because it has been co-opted

by zionists by that logic why use

american there is no clip

anywhere that says so can you i've never

seen this so can you tell me what your

opinion about the zionism lgbt flag pink

washington said that the lgbt flag was

zionist i displayed a personal

view that aesthetically i don't really

like the lgbt flag because it's just all

colors and i just aesthetically speaking

i don't like it but i could see why

other people would adopt it as their

symbol i'm not lgbt so it's not really

uh doesn't my personal aesthetic taste

doesn't even really matter but that's

all i [ __ ] said on that question so

it seems it seems that your viewers are

following true to the left-wing american

tradition of just making [ __ ] up about

people uh you ideologically disagree

with so i can okay so um some well

sure but um

i can't okay so you okay so i don't

understand so can you explain a little

clarify what

what is it that what was the comment you

made about israel i'm just curious i

don't know anything not

say i never made any comment

uh saying that the lgbt flag is zionist

or is in any way exclusively uh related

to israel i don't even know what the

[ __ ] they're talking about at all

okay um so i'm a little confused okay so

now

how exactly so now i'm very confused

about your argument okay so you're

saying but like okay so let's say that

we could okay i i were to accept your

premise that patriotism can be used for

revolutionary purposes

so

if you had to rewrite or extend what is

to be done so can you tell us what is to

be done how do we use patriotism for

revolutionary i don't think communists

should use patriotism i said communists

must be patriots or else they're not

communists what is it to be a patriot

versus using patriotism sure to be a

patriot means to serve your country and

your people

authentically

oh who are my country who are my people

how do i serve it authentically like i

don't serve your country and your people

authentically by opposing the

establishment by opposing uh corporate

america by opposing the private interest

the military-industrial complex and

american imperialism which actively

works and conspires against the

interests of the american people and

even against uh american democracy and

his historical reality so that's what it

means to be an american patriot it means

to serve your country and serve your

people means to fight for your people

means to fight for your people for a

government that is by foreign of the

people which does everything in its

power not to intervene in foreign

countries and project itself

countries but to work at home so that

americans can live the most prosperous

um

the most a cultured the most spiritually

uh elevated

uh lives that they can live

okay wait a minute wait a minute it

sounds like you're

waiting

are we talking about just like

this is what i'm confused about so how

is this related to marxism if it's just

some random feelings you have because it

doesn't really this is the entire

context

that marxism has had in history okay so

i'm sorry but this is like really

in history it wasn't a bunch of intel

bitter intellectuals sitting around who

wanted to completely raise everything to

the ground and build something new from

scratch based on ideology hold on hold

on okay you said it was about

establishing an authentic connection to

the people marx himself was called

prometheus because he took

uh from the heights of world historical

philosophy of his time down to the

people he he was the just like

prometheus stole fire to the from the

gods and gave them to humanity marx was

called prometheus he called the

proletariat the ingenious soil of the

people he didn't think the proletariat

was some separate hold on hold on but

that has absolutely nothing to do with

patriotism it sounds like okay

of course it has no hatred because so

far as the people

have a character and have a form and are

different people are different

one of the ways you identify that

difference is through their country what

what nation are they what country are

they what uh

state

all of these things are part of the ways

in which you know fine

places in the world the chinese people

are different from russian people

russian people are different from french

people french people are not the same

thing as uh the people in uruguay people

in uruguay are not the same thing as

people in india people in india are not

the same thing as people in syria people

in syria are not the same thing as

people in ireland and so on and so on

these are all different types of

people okay but it seems like different

history with different culture different

tradition different state and uh

different reality

so okay so now um assuming that okay it

seems like you're kind of word salading

but so now how is i still don't

understand

the there's

to me i don't see any logical thread

between anything you said today it seems

like you're

so i think that's an i think that's a

most intriguing form of copium for your

being unwilling to recognize

just the plains the plain reality of my

correctness here like you can cope and

say that you know you can okay

my very clear line of argumentation by

saying there is none and that it's all a

bunch of you know i didn't say there

wasn't that none i said that

i asked you to explain it again

okay i'm sorry i asked you to explain

the argument a little bit more clearly

so let's start over so you said that um

patriotism

people okay

so let me just write down what you say

so that we don't miss okay so you said

that so let's make sure so communists

must

be patriotic in order to be successful

is what you're saying

not only must they do so in order to be

successful they must do so in order to

be communists in the first place what is

okay wait a minute that doesn't even

make you yeah it makes perfect sense

where does the word communism come from

are you aware

does it matter okay of course it matters

we're talking about community or

whatever

even means in the first place

it okay it me okay so it is a class as

marx defines it it is a classless

society blah blah the question is the

eschatological christian view

uh no it is not it is literally

pseudo

that's a pseudo eschatological view with

marxism okay hold on i don't know what

the word is can you tell me what the

word pseudo is good

what does the word pseudo eschatological

mean i don't know what it means

eschatology refers to like a final end

goal and final state of okay okay so how

do you spell eschatology i've never

heard everything leading up to okay hold

on hold on okay let me just um look up

the word i think we should actually

consult marx himself on this question no

no no i don't understand okay hold on no

no no let's not consult mark let's

understand the word pseudo-eschatology

because you use this and i don't wanna i

said pseudo-christian eschatological

okay i don't know what esque okay let's

start over i don't know what eschatology

means so let me look at that s c h

[Music]

a t

o l

o g i c a l okay okay so eschatology is

the doctrine of last things it was

originally a western term referring to

the

uh jewish christian muslim beliefs about

the end of history resurrection of the

dead last judgment but marx is not

talking about that

um he's you know he's not but the

perverters of marx such as yourself are

talking about that how can okay you try

to say that communism just means a

classless society yeah that's exactly

what i said but that's not how marx

refers to he says the opposite actually

marx says communism is not an end goal

it's not a state it's not an end state

with which we uh strive to con conform

the world to according to our heads

communism is the real movement which uh

contains the sublation of the present

state of things

we call communism the real movement

that's right okay hold on

said that what is communism communism is

a doctrine of conditions of the

liberation of the proletariat

um but again so you seem to be yeah

marks and angles both okay hold on hold

on okay now it seems like so much as an

end state as much as a real force a real

okay so now how is this related to

patriotism hold on hold on hold on hold

on

okay how is this related to patriotism

i'm a little confused now because

i maybe

the issue is is that

my arguments being fundamentally more

profound require exploitation but you

just interrupt me and you don't even

know okay fine i will mute and tell me

when you're done with all the

explanations and then i'll ask questions

go ahead

but

you can't ask me a question and then

interrupt me two words in when i when i

answer you i've muted myself so you end

okay start tell me when you're done

first let's see the question what is the

question we're answering again i'll

explain it very simply

okay

communism has its origin in

uh basically the word common communists

right

and what communism and socialism is

referring to is a common social

substance of a given society

now after modern capitalism specifically

this modern

sorry this common substance that unites

a people and uh

and establishes a common economic

reality of a people breaks down people

become proletarianized they lose their

land they lose their traditions they

lose their uh sense of common reality

with one another and so communism

intervenes to address this specific

reality economically what is this common

uh object of our economic reality

that has been lost and how can we

restore it

and that's why some of the first

communists were in fact reactionary kind

of communist reactionary socialist

feudal socialist one because they view

few they saw feudalism as in a

restoration of feudalism as a return to

what had been lost

um

now if

if the form of any given society is

inherently going to be within a specific

country a specific civilization a

specific nation

that means

that the only meaningful context for a

common reality is going to be the common

reality

within the context of this country this

civilization or this nation communism

isn't something you impose on reality

from thin air you identify the common

reality and in in the case of the

america one of the only ways you can

refer to this common reality is by means

of being a patriot the common reality of

the american people and the country

within which we live it is this reality

that communists that

seek to address seek to relate

themselves to this is the only context

within which communism can have any

meaning

it's as simple as that

so the first thing is

that um

so

i get okay hold on um somebody asked a

question isha could you point out

uh where

marx and engels ever said no i did not

say that i've never said that they said

communism is a classless moneyless

stateless society no i never said that i

said that the

first stage is the establishment of the

dictatorship of the proletariat and

that's what they'd would define as

socialist

so once you have people they never made

the distinction between socialism and

communism yes they did um

lenin later made this decision no no no

okay read from the communist manifesto

marx literally says that the first stage

is the dictatorship of the apology you

didn't make a distinction between souls

yes okay no he did we okay communist

manifesto literally says this so um i

can read from this give me a second i

think you have maybe a hearing problem

or a communication problem perhaps okay

i'm not denying the proletarian

dictatorship i'm saying they never

distinguished communism and socialism

um okay i'm gonna say that they use

these words interchange interchange

okay um they use the words communism and

socialism interchangeably i don't

believe so okay hold on let me actually

did

okay whatever okay let's read from the

communist manifesto instead of like i

don't read where he talks about the

proletarian dictatorship which is not

under dispute talk about where he

identifies social as a separate stage

okay socialist okay

um let's see um

hold on i'm looking through this um

okay um

i i guess i'm still not understanding um

okay so the first thing is

why don't we address my main objection

um are you familiar with say the jakarta

method or actually can i just quickly

show the clip of what they contrasted

yeah i i am aware of the crimes of

american impurities okay so then if you

were to tell the proletariat every

single crime of america like how can

they feel patriotic about a country that

um what would be this like kills babies

with the sledgehammer the context and

the significance of doing that

okay well for example okay okay so for

example in afghanistan the u.s put in

rapey warlords so the idea is so that

you can tell the soldiers don't i

actually have a uh response to

everything you just said no no no hold

on that will save us time it'll save us

time no no i don't want to save time but

go ahead i'm listening

while you do it i'll mute and then i

will um look for you please and uh

i'm going to address this entire

argument

no one's denying that there have been

crimes of american imperialism in the

american ruling class

but simply telling going to random

people and just telling them this the

question is what is that hold on i okay

okay that's a strawman i'm not saying

that you go hey death to america that's

really stupid um uh that's like a

complete straw man like no one's saying

hey death to america by the way did you

know that they killed babies the

sledgehammer in guatemala no no no the

idea is that if you educate people on

the mechanics of imperialism yeah

basically hold on hold on

no i need two minutes i let you speak

for a long time has so you let me just

let me know when you're done i'm gonna

go uh

so you won't listen to me

okay so i guess he's not listening okay

so he doesn't really okay so the thing

is that if you have

child minor

okay so basically

the way imperialism works is that you go

down from each level so that in africa

you have to have child slaves and then

the reason um it keeps trickling up so

when you understand the whole system of

imperialism and the fact that the u.s

has been waging a war against illiterate

um

peasants for the past 100 years

um how on earth

can anyone like you have to understand

imperialism in order to break it down

and you need basically the only way i

can think of to break down imperialism

is to get the soldiers to basically do

what len said turn their guns i.e not go

and kill entire villages in afghanistan

but to defect

so um how are you going to do that like

to me it doesn't seem to make any sense

that you're going to get them to turn

their guns like instead of like killing

uh entire uh villages in afghanistan

like you have to explain to them the

whole system and then you'll notice it

keeps happening and over and over

indonesia jakarta vietnam they basically

fought against this in order to

make sure that they have access to raw

materials they literally wage the war

again for bananas and the so the way you

can break the imperial chain with the us

proletariat the only way

is he pointing a friend

i don't know is he phoning a friend

okay phoning girlfriend

wait are we done wasting time or

something

okay i'm

sorry i say is by just like you have to

explain to them this so

how are you if you actually let me talk

and just don't i'll let you talk okay

fine

you can talk as long as you want to

debate this whole debate like this

specific point will be over it will be

completely addressed

um but i don't think you can like

can you just not interrupt me

i won't interrupt you until you see i am

completely done and you can interrupt

him you can speak okay perfect

okay

so we don't need another lecture on the

crimes of american imperialism

around the world and the atrocities

committed by the united states around

the world

and that's not under dispute in the sun

under contestant the best manner by

which the american people will be

educated about the crimes of their

ruling class and the crimes of american

imperialism is through accentuating the

internal struggle at home between the

american people and their establishment

now you could educate people all you

want about the crimes of america around

the world and exact this uh

moral guilt from them all you want which

is usually a way of just people like you

just getting attention right when people

feel guilty one of the ways they're

going to mitigate that guilt is by

giving people like you attention in

clouds right that's this whole uh scam

and this entire um hustle that has been

going on for many years but if you

actually want to educate people about

the crimes and the inhuman depravity of

american imperialism

and the american government around the

world you participate and accentuate the

objective contradiction between the

american people

and the establishment at home suddenly

the crimes of the american establishment

will become very apparent

in so far as these crimes become

apparent in the war between the american

people and the establishment

through the course of the uh development

of this struggle and in this war the

american people will see the hypocrisy

of the establishment they'll see its

rottenness they'll see the evil and this

proverbial swamp of the american

establishment such that they will be

open to all manner of education about

the past they will say

wow there's so much we just didn't no

we're only on the tip of the iceberg if

it's this bad just imagine the crimes

before suddenly the crimes of american

imperialism and the american

establishment will be given new meaning

through the course of the development of

a present struggle not a focus on the

past but focus on the real objective

uh class struggle in the present

and that is how the american people will

become educated

uh as far as the crimes of american

peopleism are concerned not by uh

holding them in a room and explaining to

this how are you going to get soldiers

to rebel uh against the military

you're not going to do it by

appealing to middle-class morality like

during the vietnam war you're going to

do it just in the same way that the

russian soldiers were able to turn

against the czar you're going to do it

by addressing the contradiction between

the american people among whom include

soldiers and the establishment it's to

the development of this contradiction

that the same divisions within the

military and so on will appear that's

what happened in russia russia had a

land reform american people too aspire

to have some kind of uh proverbial land

rather than this aimless

proletarianization of the gig economy

and this future of complete uncertainty

being unable to raise families and live

normal lives now you are beginning as

your starting point from the premise of

thin air morality i'm referring to the

actual concrete material realities that

are just about sums of the difference

not there's no contention about the

crimes of american imperialism or the

atrocities of american imperialism

around the world and the fact that i'm

even having to be associated with that

position is just [ __ ] outrageous it's

a complete straw man it has nothing to

do with my position as a matter of fact

i'm willing to bet

that i pose much more of a challenge to

the same criminal american empire than

you do the american empire thrives when

people like you go and tell the american

people that you're simply anti-american

and you're not patriots you don't even

exploit the contradictions internal and

within it by exploiting those

contradictions that you're really going

to bring this empire to its knees

i rest my case

okay there's a lot of things that i have

a

lot of questions on so the first thing

is that

the reason the main

difference between zarya's russia and

america is that in america you're having

a very

nice flow of commodities in that for

example american soldiers have boots uh

zarya's russian soldiers

did not have boots in fact the

afghanistan

soldiers

um the soldiers in afghanistan like

actually fled because they were hungry

starving and didn't have boots so

basically in order to get the soldiers

to turn their guns every time in history

it's been through like pretty bad

deprivation

but what i'm saying it well

most of the time there's actually in

italy they've been able to do it um in

italy they kind of say around world war

ii they switched sides and they did not

do it via appealing to patriotism but

yeah so

that's the first thing

the second thing is that the way

the you cannot fight what you don't

understand

so in order so u.s imperialism is a big

monster that has never been defeated and

no one has a solution otherwise like

there are billions of people who would

have wanted to get rid of u.s

imperialism

so um and we also know that it's

unlikely that within the

uh american um

imperial court even lenin didn't think

that there will be anything good

happening in the period

he really doubted whether the imperial

core

was

revolutionary he he didn't believe that

so in order for

so right now ice what i see the main

problem is that way too many leftists

are kind of like oh i support the oygar

thingy oh my god free belarus and all

kinds of things like that so they're not

basically showing critical support to

third world countries who where the

chain is the weakest because um of

basically showmanism and just not

understanding the problem

so

i guess what i see is that in the u.s

american patriotism is always used as a

way to skip the dialectical analysis for

example somebody's like oh we're

like for example instead of like reading

capitalism and immigration they say

america is a land of opportunity or the

fact that um instead of explaining that

america has the wto that just kind of

like excludes everyone from intellectual

property and literally steals things uh

they would say oh america has the best

inventors

so

the way patriotism as it is used right

now is basically to skip the dialectical

explanation and give people uh american

exceptionalism and

exception and so

i just do not see how we're gonna be

aiding third world countries in their

struggle so how by

appealing to american patriotism if

anything it has been a tool for the

bourgeoisie to get the u.s soldiers to

like in fact um the american unions and

so itself collaborated with the

bourgeoisie in 1948 and ever since the

afl-cio which i jokingly called the aflt

has a solidarity center right now trying

to do a coup in myanmar and thailand so

for me what i see is that i don't

separate myself like so there are two

things that can happen with the

proletariat they can be either

collaborate with their bourgeoisie and

the bourgeoisie could see the threat and

get a bigger share of the loot

or they could stop the process of

looting

in general and i just don't see how

patriotism can stop the process of

looting within the imperial

core the first point i would like to

make is that deprivation is always

historically relative this is a basic

marxist point in relation to its

significance for politics and in

relation to its significance for the

economy during the conditions that would

lead to the arab spring in 2011

um no matter how bad the standard of

living of the actual middle class

egyptians

uh in

cairo and in

the major cities of egypt as well as

throughout tunisia and the rest of the

arab world they were nowhere near as bad

as the people who lived hundreds of

years before and yet

uh the people hundreds of years before

weren't

rising in rebellion against the ottoman

empire despite living in a comparatively

worse

living standard that's because it's a

living standard is just that it's a

standard when there's a deviation from

the standard that people reasonably

expect to have that is the source of

revolutionary upheaval revolutionary

sentiment and a breakdown of trust in

the establishment um

and that is always going to be something

that's relative now people mock for

example the shortages that are probably

going to plague the country in the very

near future i'm talking within the next

two months

because americans are so privileged and

have access to a standard of living that

most of the people in the world can't

even dream of but this standard of

living is relative to the american

people if american people can't have

meat for christmas and can't have access

to things that they expect to have

christmas that is going to be a source

of discontent with the establishment so

this moralization over the flow of

commodities isn't particularly

convincing because the degree to which

people

are going to have

a rebellion against their state and

their government reflects their relative

standard of living and those

expectations as a matter of fact that's

why oftentimes revolutions actually

break out

among the most privileged sections of

the society this was true for the french

revolution and this was also true for

the arab spring people who had expected

to rise to the ranks of the upper middle

class and increased percent of living

even if when their standard of living

didn't go down just the fact that it

didn't go up was enough to provoke this

kind of up people they didn't go up

relative to their expectations so

talking directly about whether people

have shoes on their feet and whether

they have boots um isn't really rel it's

a completely vulgar third worldest view

which whose logical conclusion is a kind

of anarcho-primitivism

right is this this idea that humanity

must be reduced to its basis level of

want in order to be truly revolutionary

it's just a complete nonsensical

argument among and finally

you talk about this is going to bridge

to the point you talk about the

so-called third world and the need to

have solidarity with the third world but

countries like russia china iran the

most formidable challengers to american

imperialism don't conceive themselves as

third world countries they conceive

themselves as middle countries that are

aspiring to uh possess this status of

being developed being developed

countries with a good standard of living

for their people they don't want to

dwell in in being a third world country

the poorest of countries if your theory

would were to hold true then it would be

the poorest of the poor countries of the

world that are the most uh

vehement uh opponents of american

imperialism but as we can see

even macron's france is a bigger

opponent of american imperialism than

some of the poorest countries on earth

especially with the recent row over

something like august and the divisions

that are starting to become apparent

between the european union and the

united states and you may laugh at this

but mount seiton

the figure that third world is referred

to the most to appeal to as the kind of

intellectual forefather mao zeitung took

notice of the contradictions within the

uh american and western and imperialist

camp he pointed out how in taiwan and in

south korea and even in europe in the

united kingdom there's starting to be

divisions and challenges to american

imperialism in mao's work uh the wind

sorry what is his work uh is it called

the wind in the rain

american imperialism paper tiger

u.s imperialism is a paper tiger

he explicitly says the united states

owes debts everywhere it owes debts only

to the countries not only to the

countries of latin america asia and

africa but also to the countries of

europe and oceania the whole world

britain included dislikes the united

states the united st the masses of the

people dislike it japan dislikes the

united states because it oppresses her

none of the countries in the east so

he's not just talking about third world

countries he's talking about how

objectively speaking there's a

contradiction between american

imperialism and

this new multi-polar world that had been

emerging at the time and this is not a

contradiction based on a moral appeal to

the crimes of american imperialism it's

an actual material world historical

contradiction that's happening

independently of morality of someone's

morality so

uh and moreover as my final uh closing

statement on this matter

basing one's opposition to american

imperialism solely on the basis of

morality does nothing but in material

reality strengthen the foundation of

american imperialism because it

privileges the site of american

subjectivity as a site of privileged

moral universal agency and it is

actually american universalism in form

not necessarily in content in terms of

the ideological content

that is the fundamental uh basis of

american ideological imperialism

american imperialism isn't just when you

promote freedom democracy and um

liberty it's even if you swap freedom

democracy and liberty for

marxism liberation uh

justice and third world islam it's still

the same fundamentally american

pathology in form it's the exact same

thing and that's actually what counts

okay the first thing i'd like to clarify

is that the arabs are you familiar with

atpor and sergey popovich because the

most of the arab spring

was a national endowment for democracy

operation in order to create coups and

they so it is not um

it is literally not uh

like a revolution in fact it is a

counter-revolution in many ways in that

they became it was basically like i said

sergey popovich bragged about how he

created tahrir square as a way of like

it was like literally an experiment for

him

so i would not use most of the arab

springs

tunisia's was probably genuine but

everything afterwards um was definitely

used by the us government as an imperial

under imperialism

so that's the first thing the second

thing is that the revolutions you

mentioned there are two kinds of

revolutions the bourgeoisie revolutions

and the proletarian revolutions the

proletarian revolutions 100 of the time

have happened in the poorest and poorest

countries like russia china vietnam cuba

bourgeoisie revolutions like the what

has happened in france um and other

countries

as for

um

uh

okay because of imperialism

the u.s tends to install like public

government so yes many third world

countries have a comprador class

and if you watch um john pilger's

pilgerism

the new rulers of the world you'll

understand how the us cultivates that

kind of bourgeoisie like with the cycles

so um i i don't so it's kind of like you

the us installs the government against

their will and yeah they're gonna

continue to like allow their population

to be used for essentially slave labor

so i just don't

like i guess

what i'm

i i guess it seems like i'm a little um

so what i see is that

so that's just the main thing that i'm

addressing um so i would not use um

the national and i just don't think

okay so what i'm saying is that yes uh

it is unlikely given our history so if

you have a new method

that can

shake a revolution from the imperial

court i'd love to hear about it but i

was just making a comment from

historical observation

so

i guess um

i'm not sure how much more time we have

but

yeah

i guess i wa

i guess

uh what i'd like to do is um

i guess do you have a i don't know

closing statement or anything like i i

guess i mean i think this was a very

fruitful thing in that i understood a

lot of where you were coming from

but um but do you have any like last

minute closing statements or like any

idea of like what is to be done

that regardless of the circumstances of

what actors were intervening in tunisia

and egypt i don't buy the idea that the

revolution in egypt was a foreigner

okay sergey popovic literally admitted

to it um so i don't know what yeah i

just don't buy that mubarak was a

revolutionary and no mubarak was not

revolutionary but the uh tahrir square i

was definitely uh i i am yes

okay so what they did is they

assassinated hold on hold on

it was about this they assassinated him

the sentiment the anger the passion and

the culture everything behind the arab

spring in egypt

was more or less authentically

reflecting the reality of the egyptian

people

and

finally uh and the same can be said

about tunisia and the to say the

otherwise is just a flag okay so tunisia

like i said i was authentic

but um

like i said the carnegie council

basically

has uh like i will send it to janet and

she'll send it to you and she'll share

share it with the chat but the carnegie

county oh uh council literally explained

how regardless of the point though it's

actually not the point no it makes sense

it makes a big sense in that if you have

a cia app that's like much different

yeah it is an authentic revolution egypt

was not like syria it was actually a

real authentic no

i'm sorry but sergey popovic literally

admitted to it and the cia doesn't

deserve who that is but it's i think it

people from egypt and what i know from

on the ground than uh sergey popovic i'm

sorry okay um see here's what um

okay

uh yeah i know foreigners uh were and

ngos were involved no no no specifically

this was literally an op

design and sergey popovich kind of

little went a little rogue in order to

prove that he had the

method

so tahir square i wouldn't is definitely

a national endowment backed operation

yeah i i i just we're just going to have

to agree to disagree there but well i

mean literally i'm showing you them

admitting that i don't know what that is

okay well we'll send it to you um but

okay

so in that case well um

do you wanna if you wanna tell people um

what time

like do you stream every day i just

wanted to say that it's actually not

true that revolutions happen in the

poorest countries russia was not the

poorest country at the time and china

was also not

the poorest country of its time i didn't

say deep forest i said in deep in in

countries that are poor like in deep

yeah

it was the most poorest country i reject

the poverty as an explanatory value for

why revolutions happen revolutions

happen for much more complicated reasons

than just poverty but regardless of the

fact the example of history should not

discourage communists in western okay

hold on um hold on chris morlock has a

super chat question hold on let's answer

his question

don't ultra leftists simply sell

indulgences meaning they offer an

absolution of sin by formally denouncing

the sin how is this material if the

purpose is to find the commonality of

all people okay i'll address it first

and then you can address it no um so so

chris this is not what marxists believe

marxists believe that

like society is fundamentally a class uh

conflict so we're not trying to find the

commonality between all people but we

are trying to get the proletariat to

oppress the bourgeoisie so it is a class

war the proletariat needs to fight fight

fight when so that is what marxists

believe and so we're not definitely

finding no commonality we want the

proletariat to go beat and uh defeat the

bourgeoisie do you have a comment on

this one or do you want me to read this

out loud or yeah can you see it quickly

the view of uh the selling of indulges

is actually one that our collective had

arrived at independently many years ago

and the it's not just a you know

cheap comparison it's actually very deep

ways in which you can see that it the

corruption of the catholic church and

the current american left

uh the corruption of the catholic church

at the time of the reformation and the

american left now there's so many

striking parallels and similarities it's

really interesting to er

investigate

uh

now um

it's in no way material to the purpose

of uh

of um giving expression and giving

meaning and giving um

application to the common reality of the

people which is what communism actually

is about

uh and the significance of the

proletariat as far as marx is concerned

especially because it is the proletariat

that as a class embodies the true

universality of the whole people as well

as the fate that he viewed awaited

the majority the overwhelming majority

of the people

in uh the country within which

so

uh yeah to answer your question uh yeah

i agree

hold on uh he uh he has to

wait he also asked about the commonality

well uh hold on there's one more

question uh dan can you bring this up

just quickly please

sorry

uh it's fine um he also asked um isn't

uh hold on let me just quickly

get his second part uh where is it i

can't find it anymore okay never he

asked something about like aren't

like it aren't revolution some sort of

uh

chris can you type your question again

about the commonality so that has can

answer it

um if you're here if not um oh we'll

wait about four more two more minutes um

let's see uh somebody's any other

comments um no

okay no worries um it's fine uh okay so

um

uh

okay so um okay okay he said you

answered it that's excellent okay that's

good um in that case um do you what days

do you stream how do people find you

online

um

[Music]

oh thank you um

i'm just twitch.tv slash infrared show

and uh thanks for having me on i don't

know what time do you stream like where

uh daily

uh you know uh fixed schedule but

usually i announce it in the discord or

the youtube you can find us at uh

infrared at youtube um and we usually

just make a post but it's usually around

you know 4 p.m anywhere between 4 p.m

and uh 8 p.m we will find us

okay well um check him out um i really

liked what you when you debated what's

his face um uh what's his name

yeah vouch that was pretty good and um i

saw that one and then there was another

one that i really liked um

this like right winger not like fake he

looked like a persian um persian inbred

person socialism done left or something

like that

yeah it's also none left

yeah um well okay well thank you for

joining us and hopefully we can um have

a

uh yeah we should continue this

discussion like in a few

like in a little while after we kind of

understand each other's position a

little bit more and definitely keep in

touch it was really nice having this

debate like i liked that we were both

mostly respectful

all right yeah okay thanks well and yep

and uh

next time uh

we need to meet up when we're in

michigan

okay thank you so much

bye bye

all right

oh man

that went way longer than i expected

honestly

way longer

god

all right guys

i'd love to stick around

but

i'm gonna go to the gym

we just i just wanted to do the debate

you know

tomorrow

we're gonna be back

i'm gonna be back i'd love to stick

around guys i gotta wake up though we'll

be back don't worry we'll be back

tomorrow

will we no i'm kidding we'll be back

tomorrow tomorrow we'll be back

um

i'm gonna do a quick reflection quick

reflection

uh to reflect on what happened

uh

yeah it wasn't that bad you know she was

okay uh don't don't give asha a hard

time you know she has differences

you can be civil

i really disagree with her a whole ton

but she wasn't really that disrespectful

um she wasn't really disrespectful just

a little kind of petty that's okay

but

we mostly kept it respectful and

let the debate speak for itself you know

don't don't be bothering people don't be

whatever the last comment was not civil

i don't remember what she said

um

you know

i do got to go to the gym guys

the phone thing oh yeah yeah well i was

just so frustrated i was just frustrated

okay

you know it's as simple as that i was

just frustrated

but know

[Music]

stl is a what

why the [ __ ] would you say that

take a break dude i didn't even know he

was persian what the [ __ ]

so guys i

it's so crazy i'm ending now at like 800

viewers but

he was quoting her oh

what okay i was only for a day okay matt

can you unban that guy

what's his name

i just timed him out his name was milan

okay

on timeout

on timeout

okay

all right

[Music]

i gotta keep i got

mcdonald's yesterday dude

you know i'm [ __ ]

it's kind of depressing like i had

mcdonald's yesterday and it makes me

feel like [ __ ] right now like i feel

like [ __ ] garbage

wanna talk about the flag part about

tomorrow

yeah let's i guess we can yeah

um

silly series is super cool guys this is

a super cool person

you know when i uh

when i one of the one of the few people

that

you know sent me a nice message that

time when i was like the during the

reflection stream

where i was talking about some of the

issues

i was dealing with and whatever

she was one of the few people that came

out and like were you know they were

they they gave me some uh words of

support you know

so

super cool person

but

yeah guys

i'd love to stick around but

you know

bye-bye

see you tomorrow

i'll see you guys tomorrow okay

damn

we're gonna have more debates destiny

debates postponed by the way