Haz vs Richard Spencer | InfraredShow Debate 🚀 Infrared Content Catalog

all right hey guys welcome to

politically provoked and interactive

podcasts royals debates panels and

interviews i'm your host brittany i'm

here with my co-host todd how are you

doing great britain

and our moderator tonight justin how are

you i am doing excellent how are you

brett

i'm good is um

all right so we are going to be debating

the russia ukraine stuff finally so this

is um we haven't really talked much

about it on our show uh we have two

people from very very opposing sides

even on their twitter they have one has

the ukrainian flag one has the russian

flag it's gonna be fun so we're gonna be

doing um with richard spencer and has

infrared so why don't we bring on our

guests uh first up why don't we bring on

haws justin

hey so yeah you want to introduce

yourself tell people where you lie on

the political spectrum and where people

can find you

i'm haas from the infrared show i'm a uh

marxist leninist

um

[ __ ]

um

i'm part of a media collective called

the infrared show uh we're marxist

leninists and we call ourselves marxist

leninist

in the age of uh multi-polarity in the

post-covert world

so

we don't have that much in common with

um western marxist leninis uh we're

trying to like build a new thing

basically

and yeah

all right well thanks for joining us um

and next up let's bring on richard

hi

i'm richard spencer i'm an advocate of

unipolarity trotsky trotskyism

um so this should be quite a debate no

um i'm not

an advocate of trotsky um i think

unipolarity has gone out the window uh

haze and i might actually agree on that

um but i am who i am uh you can take i

don't want to attach any label to what i

think you can

take my words for what they are

okay great all right so here's what

we're gonna do each person can give an

opening statement can be as little as

one minute no longer than five about the

topic and your stance after that we'll

open up the floor we will go into q a at

the end of the debate if you guys have

questions tag politically provoked who

your question's addressed to we also

have um you can send super chats through

power chat dot live slash politically

provoked um and

we will read those at the end we're not

gonna interrupt the debate

right now we're on odyssey d live trovo

facebook we are not streaming on twitch

we're not doing our debates on twitch

but we um and we're obviously not on

youtube since we lost our youtube so

that's where you can find us um all

right so yeah why don't we get started

opening statements uh richard you want

to get us going

sure um well we live in interesting

times that is for sure

the continent is furiously rearming

itself

there has never been

perhaps even in my life certainly in the

past 30 years there has never been such

unity

in nato

there is actually a remarkable amount of

unity in the united states uh with

regard to the invasion of ukraine by

russia we are entering a new realm and i

think what the best way to describe it

is that we are re-entering the 20th

century

uh the so-called unipolar moment

uh that was announced by charles

krauthaimer you can think of it as the

end of history or anything like that

is

giving way to what i think will be a

bifurcated world it will be a different

type of bifurcated world than the 20th

century but there will actually be a lot

of similarities

um i i do ultimately think this is a a

good thing in many ways and i can go

through that later but actually i'm

going to do something that might be a

little bit unusual in the sense that i

am going to

grant

russia has real interest

in this conflict i think in the

particularly in the american

media sphere

there's a

tendency to moralize

and to talk about poor little ukraine

they're just being attacked for no

reason

and every sovereign nation deserves to

make its own decisions

well

i guess that's true in some way but it's

very naive

um the fact is

from russia's standpoint and i and i do

think this describes putin's

perspective on matters

uh there is no russian security without

ukraine so it's not just a matter of

nato expansion which has happened in

fits and starts since the end of the

cold war um it is ukraine in particular

obviously ukraine has tremendous

historical ties with russia kiev and

moscow are foundations of the empire

lots of linguistic ties genetic ties i

mean they they are very similar people

of course

but i think there is a geostrategic

element to ukraine that makes it

actually unique

russia feels that it will be it can be

encircled and russia can in fact fall

if there isn't

a a bastion in ukraine to stop this

most recently

uh the german army

um in during the second world war

marched across ukraine towards the

caspian

uh the from the russian standpoint that

is simply a no-go this cannot happen so

i do think that there is a

a kind of danger of

uh nato expansion obviously russia

doesn't like that

um understandably but the i think there

is a unique

geostrategic quality about ukraine now i

think russia and uk and the united

states and nato are kind of in a bit of

a prisoner's dilemma i guess you could

say regarding this and the sense that

washington knows how

important ukrainist russia russia has

said explicitly how important it is and

it's kind of like who goes first should

we expand

you know should we there are certainly

people in washington who who want to see

a diminished russia

no doubt

but russia has decided for whatever

reason

to basically take it all this is not

about supporting donbass this is not

about a humanitarian intervention to

prevent nazis or some nonsense like that

this is an attempt to take the whole

thing and return us to the 20th century

the good thing about this is that this

reinvigorates nato this is the original

purpose of nato it is an anti-russian

alliance

i think it's also going to inspire a lot

of self-reflection on the west the past

30 years culturally speaking have been

horrifying from my perspective in

america and the western world this is

going this new sense of danger and even

possible

or possible world war ii even a possible

annihilation uh is going to encourage

the west to rethink itself it's going to

encourage it to rearm as it clearly has

been

in a remarkable speed so i'm re-entering

the 20th century and i ultimately think

that is a very good thing

um and this has reinvigorated european

unification it's reinvigorated nato

and i think it's going to reinvigorate

an identity upon people like myself who

live in the west and identify with the

west

there it is

thank you

uh there is no evidence that russia's

goal is to simply take uh all of ukraine

or even we don't even know if they want

to take any part of ukraine

uh actually i mean as far as the status

of the donbass republics we can assume

they're probably gonna have a referendum

and they're gonna go the way of crimea

but

it's clear to me that

russia is attacking ukrainian cities in

the west kharkiv and kiev

outside of the parameter of the donbass

because they're getting to the root

cause of the civil war in the east of

ukraine and getting to the root cause of

ukrainian aggression

against the people of the donbass

russia does not want an anti-russian

government in ukraine in general they're

looking past the specifics that was the

straw that broke the camel's back as to

why they're doing this which is again

because of ukraine's attacks against the

newly recognized donetsk and lugans

republics

and they're going to the root cause of

why is there a conflict like this in the

first place they're challenging the

um

the legitimacy of the 2014 maidan coup

and russia's goals seem pretty clear to

me they're not there to occupy ukraine

or

enacts all of it now if you think

uh denotifying ukraine

and

ensuring that ukraine is neutral and

it's not going to have an anti-russian

uh orientation that this amounts to

taking it then i guess you're right

but i don't think this has anything in

common with the outright blanket

territorial annexations

of the 20th century

finally uh just as a quick remark on the

second point i think here we can find a

common agreement i do think that the

west is

finding a new kind of um

identity and i think you are probably

one of the best figureheads

for the new uh identity that uh the

liberal west is now adopting as it's

unifying

uh against uh russia right i think there

is a a kind of fusion going on between

neoconservatism on the one hand and you

know kind of uh

so-called left-wing progressivism on the

other hand of bernie sanders and aoc and

i think from this fusion we are going to

have the revival of national socialism

in the west and it's going to have all

the qualities of

germany's

ad hoc kind of

territorial designs and aggression

against other states le benzrom and all

this kind of stuff so i do think you

adequately represent that

um

to me

yeah so it seems very clear to me that

there's a problem with this though the

problem is that

russia does not just represent russia or

russian interests and the western elites

that are leading the charge for this new

kind of consolidation don't simply

represent the west there's a more

fundamental global

division going on right now between the

forces of global populism

the peoples of the world more or less

and this kind of davos agenda of uh

anglo-saxon globalism so

even within the united states we are not

germany we're not europe here 50 percent

of people are skeptical of the

prevailing narrative about what's going

on in ukraine here we have an

association of biden and his agenda with

the enemy of the american people

here we have provided a base of

operations with which things like the

truckers movement in canada

uh could uh reach success so within the

west there is going to be resistance

against this new uh

i guess globalistic nazism if you want

to call it that this global liberal

george soros uh

paradox of tolerance nazism as i like to

call it

uh so i think uh it's not so clear-cut

all right we can open up the florida

you're probably one of the very few

people on the planet who thinks that

this is not a full invasion and i

understand that the original propaganda

you know five or six days ago

um was about a kind of humanitarian

intervention to protect the people of

donbass

additionally i would never deny that

the civil war and the post might on

uh ukraine uh hasn't given birth to a

kind of humanitarian atrocity and that

there actually is serious suffering in

donbass and that that should be

addressed in some way i would uh never

deny that

um however

in geopolitically speaking this is a

much this is simply a ruse

and the idea

that you can cities can fall cities

karakev was recently fell cities can be

sieged and then assaulted and then fall

a massive convoy can pass through a

country um you

the notion that that is going that

russia is just simply going to go home

or something like that is absolutely

absurd and even the russian

recognition of the donbass region

was itself an act of aggression i mean

again i am not denying that there is

suffering on behalf of of russian

um leaning uh ukrainians in the donbass

region i'm not denying that but you

simply can't decide to leave a country

but because you want to

uh that just does not happen

when it happens it's exceedingly rare

like czechoslovakia when you try to do

it you usually end up in a situation

like we are in today or in the american

civil war there is no like popular

sovereignty where you can just decide to

leave a country it just simply doesn't

work like that and to say that is just

exceedingly naive

um secondly even if

we

take your

rosy colored uh you know depiction of of

putin's campaign as he just wants a

neutralized ukraine and that he's going

to allow it to be there again that is a

way of hegemonically dominating ukraine

you are not allowing ukraine to choose

its own destiny by basically enforcing

russia's will upon it now again i have

actually granted that russia has real

strategic interest here you seem to want

to repeat

just

utterly

baffling and

uncompelling kremlin propaganda

how this is some kind of effort at

denotification

it's just absurd

um

that i mean they i think what you're

getting at with russia is this kind of

lack of legitimacy that russia has faced

for some time um the soviet union was

based around a notion of it eventual

maybe not tomorrow but workers

revolution across the planet you seem to

almost be suggesting something of the

kind um even in the division of europe

after yalta at the end of the second

world war uh stalin kind of more or less

assumed that there was going to be a

bolshevik revolution or communism in

britain and the west and capitalist

powers return on each other and fight to

the death and he'd just kind of roll on

in

by the 60s and 70s that clearly was not

happening the world was bifurcated and

um

the basically the legitimacy of the

soviet state began to be well we fought

the germans we defeated nazism therefore

we kind of deserve this

and so this this

denautification which is just simply

absurd i mean the azov battalion is a

you know part of the military and they

are fighting but it is a very minor

thing but i don't think that's even what

you mean you seem to you seem to kind of

be playing a semantic shell game where

uh neoliberal capitalism is nazism or

something

neoliberal capitalism pure true

globalism has been absolutely in effect

over the past 30 years we've lived

through the end of history i think that

time is over we are moving towards a

period of civilizational states there is

going to be a notion of europe with nato

as its uh fighting force

the eu plus nato that's not quite the

original idea behind nato but that that

is what it's going to look like

there's going to be greater european

integration and so a a kind of

you know

gross realm or something which is a a

term that you evoked that was evoked by

carl schmidt who was invoked by national

socialists

a gross realm is exactly what russia is

trying to create here

russia is shoring up geostrategic

interest through creating a

zone a great space that allows it to

exist

i understand why they want that the

problem is that is going to be happening

in europe as well this is where we are

headed is toward civilizational blocks

and you know again if you you think the

truckers are going to come to your

rescue and create revolution

in canada or the united states uh

i have nothing to say to that other than

keep dreaming

the notion that russia's siege of kiev

sorry uh ukraine's major cities is

evidence that they want to annex the

whole territory of ukraine evinces a

stunning lack

of russian geopolitical interests in the

region russia doesn't want to annex

ukraine it's going to create too much

problems they're going to have to have

an occupying force they're going to have

to face ukrainian resistance putin is

well aware of the fact that no

government can rule at the expense of

the will

of a people it's just simply not

realistic now russia has been very slow

in this invasion and it's actually been

very slow in its attempt to capture

these cities precisely because what

they're trying to do is give the current

ukrainian government the ability to

negotiate a ceasefire and agree to

russia's terms to stop right so that's

why russia's been you know somewhat slow

the past week it's not if russia wanted

to simply just roll over and take all of

ukraine they would have done it already

the reason they're not doing that is

because they're trying to give them in

order to offer them the chance to reach

precisely because they yes precisely

they are trying to force the ukrainian

government to agree to russia's terms of

both neutrality of disarmament

don't interrupt me that's not the same

thing as an annexation you understand so

there's no dispute about the question of

russia using military force in ukraine

the point is is it's not they don't have

any design

at least there's no evidence of any

design on part of the russian government

to annex it now the fact that they're

see sieging all of the major uh

ukrainian cities isn't evidence of that

there's no evidence russia just wants to

go in and take over all of ukraine now

if you're going to interpret taking over

i never imagined annexation you did now

okay

so

what you mean so what you mean by taking

over what you mean by taking over is

simply this [ __ ] about hegemonic

influence well let me introduce you to

the reality of geopolitics geopolitics

but the problem is that you're trying to

formalize it geopolitics is an informal

reality of yes historical civilizational

realities geographic realities the

realities of a necessary necessity of a

balance of security none of those things

are really formalized and it's just an

unspoken rule of international relations

of course we know that not every country

is formally sorry not every country is

practically equal formerly every country

has the

equal right to self-determination but

there's also underpinning realities uh

behind that formal right to

self-determination that's just an

unspoken i mean the u.s is not going to

tolerate a nuclear-armed mexico on its

dormstep the u.s is not going to

tolerate a canada that is hostile to it

we all know that this is how uh it works

in the world and also it's not

necessarily because of imperialism

either it's also because of the

arrangement

of geopolitics and the necessity for a

balance of security russia specifically

has been encircled by nato russia

specifically is encircled by powers that

have a historical precedent of uh

unjustifiably invading and encroaching

on the sovereignty of others so russia's

position has been purely defensive if

you actually understand what russia runs

in ukraine they don't want to they don't

want to have tyranny over the people of

ukraine or impose values or impose some

kind of way of life nor do they want to

exploit the resources of ukraine they

want ukraine to basically not be used

for purposes of aggression against

themselves it's literally that simple

now you said actually a lot of things so

i'm going to quickly i'm gonna go

quickly go one by one because you

actually said a lot of things you said

that a territory cannot simply leave a

country well can a people simply

overthrow uh a government or a segment

of the people i should say like in the

the 2014 maidan revolution that

revolution changed

sure but that changes the definition of

ukraine's sovereignty if they can have a

[ __ ] coup then the people in the dawn

bass can secede and it's all all bets

are off every revolution in history has

led to rearrangements in a country's

borders and and and changing the status

quo as far as territories are concerned

because the actual formal site of

sovereignty has collapsed and has is

changing right so that's a complete uh

[ __ ] point now you talked about this

stuff regarding this expectation

sorry what's not i mean i don't know

what to tell you

there is a it's called a coup it's a

violent regime so okay

did the crew have legal sanctions but

like you what i'm saying is you do not

have a right peacefully to hold a

referendum and say we just don't want to

be in this government anymore it's going

to only what government hold on what

government where is that where is that

where is that government where did that

government get its legitimacy from

violence right a crew a violent coup so

by that same device you're going to see

all governments

sure

sure sure but before then to maintain

stability you have legal precedent right

to define laws when that's all thrown

into the [ __ ] air then yes people are

going to secede and they're by the same

device actually that the previous

government was overthrown it's happened

in every revolution in history ukraine

cannot complain that its sovereignty is

encroached upon because these people

want to declare their independence when

ukraine illegally deposed without any

legal sanction or precedent whatsoever

its former government i mean what

by what like how is it that ukraine can

even expect or or have the um

the entitlement that countries should

even recognize its government right what

government is that it was overthrown in

a coup right

so that's that's the united states was

created in a coup i mean you seem to be

suggesting that like there's a real

sovereign ukraine and then there's 2014.

no there's no more no no

what i'm suggesting what i'm suggesting

okay

sure every state is founded by violence

is america a legitimate government

we're not getting into that

question every state is america a

legitimate government yes or no it's a

legitimate state yes so

every state is founded by violence we

know that okay every state is founded by

violence but if you want to maintain

long-term stability and long-term

sovereignty of the specific definition

of that sovereignty right which is your

territory and your borders then a sudden

and violent revolution is going to throw

all of that into question and everything

becomes up for grabs right it's all fair

game you can't lay claim to the same

level of sovereignty the government you

just overthrew

did right because you have called

him you have caught you

over through the british empire and lay

claim to the entire continent so yes you

can well

hold on hold on

uh continent okay

uh what you're saying isn't what i'm

trying to say specifically

is that you cannot have the expectation

right you can't have the sense of

entitlement that people should respect

the previous status quo i'm not saying

you can't try and maintain that previous

status quo i'm saying you can't make

pretense to some kind of international

law about your sovereign territory when

the legitimacy of your government has

yet to prove itself in any kind of way

ukraine was recognized by every country

around the world

ukraine's government was ukraine's

government was violently deposed

yes and it was recognized by every

country in the world so therefore it is

wrecking it

it is

the violent the violence the violent

deposition was recognized you and your

chat room might not like it but the rest

of the world russia russia recognized

the russia recognized the new government

under new terms and conditions of taking

crimea right so no it wasn't the same

thing it was absolutely not the same

thing russia took crimea they took

crimea precisely because of this pretext

it's just talking

i mean was russia's annexation of crimea

like legitimate of course i mean it's

like of course

why is that legitimate and it's because

we're not talking about that we're

saying if they're going to have one and

you dislike the other so you're claiming

one it's not about liking or disliking

anything

it's about

ukraine cannot

appeal to international law and appeal

to its own sovereignty about oh crimea

is actually ours russia committed an act

of aggression oh the separatists

shouldn't be allowed to succeed they're

committing an act of aggression well

everything's fair game it's that simple

it clearly has the entire the entire

western world is back in ukraine so you

are the western world

why don't you give a [ __ ] about the

whole western world [ __ ] the

western world is a fraction of the

global legitimacy what do you care about

the western world come on can you tell

me why anyone is about the western world

you should give a [ __ ] who knows what

they want

who cares what they recognize

there's more there's more people in

china there's more people in china than

the whole [ __ ] western world combined

why is the western world's opinion the

only one that matters

so if you have the most people and that

gives you more legitimacy that's what

you're arguing so i know because the the

western world has set the tone well i i

i would i would i would say that their

inherent superiority would be maybe but

that was disproven world war ii when the

fascists got their ass handed to them by

the soviets so we can't say it's because

they're more superior as a race or

anything so yeah it's gonna have to be

one man uh

every man counts so i think yeah

population does matter

so because the soviet union killed a lot

of people what it thinks is correct that

is what you literally i'm trying to say

we have to probably begin from a premise

that one person isn't superior to any

other kind of person in this globe you

can't say that uh

europeans are they're that they matter

more than china or they matter more than

india why because uh

based on what why why should they matter

more

they have historically mattered more in

the sense that they created these

institutions that were even talking

about now they might not matter more in

the

future in shock and those institutions

are being overthrown those institutions

are being overthrown as we speak

that's multi-polarity being overthrown

as we speak the u.n was not created by

the the founding members of the u.n you

had the soviet union you had china it

wasn't just europeans who created the

u.n it was created in san francisco i

think it was kind of sort of a western

institution

the soviet union was a founding member

of the united nations

beyond any measure over the past week

it's it's unbelievable the eu is

strengthened people want to join the eu

the people are deaf

even even like estonia are not

absolutely trying to destroy natives

institutions right yeah

right now they've been whipped up into

an anti-russian frenzy it doesn't

underlie the uh it doesn't address the

underlying contradictions within europe

the problem of populism are the

contradictions within your eyes they

call it populism

uh what are you talking about like

right-wing parties that hold ten general

alternative anti-establishment forces

people who are dissatisfied with the

davos agenda with the european union and

with the anglo-saxon ruling class that

actually rules over them you mentioned

one of your points that there's this new

european identity that's being created

no there [ __ ] isn't if there was a

sovereign franco-germanic bloc that is

its own poll then why would they have

not acted in their own actual economic

interests and agreed to nordstrom 2

pipeline deal they would have [ __ ] you

to the americans and simply done that

now they're being the dogs of the

americans it's not there's no

independent european identity these are

american puppets you know it and i know

it they're acting on behalf of america's

interests

less american puppets than they were in

1945. in 1945 i i would not disagree

with you that they're effectively

american puppets there has never

germany and france's sovereign interest

in [ __ ] over its own uh source

getting its own source of energy and

getting cheaper gas why would they [ __ ]

that over if they're acting on behalf of

their own sovereignty it's moving in a

different

way

do you mean to tell me do you mean to

tell me they're asserting their

sovereignty by now uh turning to green

energy and windmills and renewables or

some [ __ ] like get real hope they i hope

they i hope they go [ __ ] get real

power which they were advanced on okay

but that's not 40 40 of

okay

that decision comes at the expense of

their own sovereign interests

no it doesn't yes it does they made a

sovereign decision to end it you're just

using words again you throw out words

because they're in nato because

they didn't make a sovereign decision

everyone makes a formally sovereign

decision but they did it on behalf of

america's interests not their own

they're selling out their own interests

that's true but you're you're i'm maybe

that's true or maybe that's true to a

degree but you're simply saying that all

i am saying is that there is a

bifurcated world that resembles the

bifurcated world bifurcated between who

who are the two parties to this

bifurcation

there is a renewed west and with a nato

a fighting force

the way i see it is russia is going to

turn to a kind of eurasianism where all

of that natural i mean this is again

speculation but that natural gas and

resource and oil and other resources

hydrocarbons are going to be headed east

okay so you're gonna

find yourself sure as the little brother

of china okay and so i don't wish that

upon the russian people to be honest i i

actually am

despite what you might think of me i

actually am i have a lot of affection

for russia and russian culture

i want to unify this that's not that's

not the material that's not going to get

that people it's not material to

whatever trap past okay that's not

material to what we're talking about so

you mentioned a word eurasianism

do you think that there's maybe a member

of nato that exists right now that is

part of the eurasian sphere

a member of nato that is right now

that's part of the eurasian sphere i i

don't know what you're suggesting well

is nato the west is there a country is

there a country you're forgetting about

is nato the west or

are you trying are you i

i mean

more or less why would you say hungary

why would you say hungry before turkey

you remember turkey's in nato you

remember that right oh turkey's a nato

that's a good point yeah yeah so

turkey's in nato and turkey has

interests that neither align with the

west fully nor do they align with russia

or china fully iran has interests that

don't align with the west or and don't

necessarily align with russia and china

all the time that's why it's not a new

bifurcated world it's a multi-polar

world often there's interest that france

and germany have that don't align with

uh america so this idea of this yeah but

the fundamentals of what

the west is a myth it's going to be

bifurcated the west is a myth i actually

agree i don't know i granted you

actually a good point

because there's a turkish question yeah

that we're going to say

here's the problem here's the problem

when you say the west you're not

actually talking about europe as a whole

you're just talking about the rule of

the former british empire which is based

on the anglo-saxon elites of the united

states and uh you know the cia the state

department to the davos agenda the

global institutions all that kind of

stuff the finance global financial

institutions which is the most important

part of that all of that has its center

it's not simply the west it's the

anglo-sphere okay so

when you're talking when we're the only

thing that unites the west as a whole is

the leash the american empire has

on its western allies through nato when

this leash is gone

there's a new western question about

okay well what does the west really mean

who is the the hegemon of europe is it

going to be franco germania is it going

to be 45

i don't agree with you in 2020 so see

the problem with you yeah france is a

nuclear let me finish real quick france

is a nuclear power france has a

man

an egomaniac napoleon complex individual

in charge of its country at the moment

that wants to have its day in the sun

germany is now radically rearmed i think

um the uh military budget is three to

five percent of gdp we have not seen

this since the second world war this is

actually going to be different and

europe isn't was in rubble particularly

germany germany was divided in 1945.

there is going to be a very

quality to the to this neo cold war that

i'm describing you you and i is also

going to be a new element that wasn't

there at least at the end

you are witnessing the it's going to be

different yeah so what you're saying is

that it's it's going to be bifurcated uh

geostrategic environment

it's not because what you're actually

witnessing right now is the implosion of

the american empire and all the barking

that the european countries and leaders

are doing and their media is making is

because of the seething and writhing of

the death of the empire that they used

to be a part of you you see this some

kind of new rebirth of the american

empire or the so-called west which

you're actually witnessing is its demise

in real time

you're witnessing a unity you're

witnessing

that because you're the only kind of

unity you're witnessing is the unity of

copium they're using the same copium

raw material to cope with a common

empire that's dying that they used to

have so as far as what's going to

replace this is concerned there's no

it's not clear whatsoever it's not clear

what future do you think russia is

rising absolutely

okay i mean look i think there are

very strong do you know what okay does

does does russia have a trade does

russia have a trade surplus or a trade

deficit like the us does it has a trade

surplus of course it's a resource so it

is rising

well uh

if you look at russian society i mean

this is a oligarchic petrol state i mean

i i don't this is not going what do you

mean by oligarchy oligarchic is a

political term who who does putin share

power with

oh you think putin doesn't share power

with these oligarchs

absolutely absolutely not they have no

sovereignty whatsoever

okay so it's just a one-man government

no it's a popular front government with

other parties in it but yeah it's a

popular government

okay well i mean where do you think

putin gets his support from do you think

putin gets his support from the

oligarchs or from the pensioners

nostalgic about the soviet union in the

countryside from there i i think putin

does have a lot of popularity putin

doesn't have an oligarchy why is he why

is he sitting in a room with

billionaires

because they own

some of the biggest industries in russia

the biggest companies i think that gives

you power

it doesn't it is the u.s okay

the man

is china in the us an oligarchy too then

uh it is an oligarchy i think it's it

functions in a bit of a different way i

mean i it's not such an intense

wealth inequality to be honest in the

united states as it is in russia but

yeah there's an oligarchic quality the

united states no doubt okay

oligarchy is a political term okay the

power that russia yeah i mean i okay

that's fine i mean oligarchy is

a greek term literally ruled by a few

but which is political i think i'm using

it in a more kind of

modern way of like you're just you're

just referring to the fact not literally

you're referring to the fact that has

immense power he owns the washington

post russia has billionaires russia has

billionaires and it also has a lot of

wealth inequality that's that's what

you're referring to

yes it has more intense wealth and

equality than the united states so i

think china does as well what's your

point

well

i guess your point what is so hot about

russia i mean like this is a rising new

society for social media because

russia's russia's

rising society because russia's what are

you claiming about it there's two facets

to it so if you want to talk about uh i

don't see what how does having wealth

inequality correlate to not being a

rising power it doesn't make any sense

i i don't think russia the russian way

of life is going to be particularly

attractive to most of the world

wait wait why does

the russian an intense fascination for

intellectuals i don't think anyone with

russia russia's not returning to the uh

the soviet union where it was going to

export its ideology to the people of the

world russia way of life is for russians

who else

okay well

fine but

it doesn't mean it's not rising doesn't

mean it's not rising that's small that's

the meaning of multi-polarity china is

rising russia is writing iran in a way

are rising turkey's rising there's these

different uh poles around the world

with their own way of life and they're

rising now does that mean they're going

to export their way of life to other

countries no doesn't mean they're not

rising though

i i of course agree that like the power

distribution is going to change over

time

and i have said in my opening statement

that the kind of true globalism of

unipolarity is ending what i am arguing

is maybe not dissimilar from what you

just said which is that we're moving

towards a world of civilizational states

now i think the big bifurca and there

are of course are different powers in

the in the in the uh post-war era we had

you know in neutral yugoslavia uh we had

the south america what what were they

middle east is a rising power with with

resource wealth i mean there's always

been a degree of unifor of

multi-polarity rather

um what i am arguing is that we are

moving largely towards civilizational

states we are going to see intense

unification on the western and central

europe on the europa the equivalent to

the equivalence to a european polarity

is franco-germania it's france and

germany okay

the unity of france and germany right

the problem is that the americans have

done everything they could to undermine

that specific block as an independent

polarity and nords america blocking

nordstrom 2 in this whole [ __ ] that's

going on in ukraine which is actually

all because of that by the way

um

that was specifically about undermining

any independent european polarity and

now the the germans and the french and

the other europeans have been whipped

into a frenzy they're getting back in

line as the uh

lackeys of nato and american imperial i

mean nato as an institution is just

american you know polarity it doesn't

have any room for an independent unit

america uh european polarity is american

unipolarity it was created as an

anti-russian military alliance in 1919

nato was not created as an extension of

american union polarity to enforce uh

the uh it's not imminent unipolarity

comes after the end of the soviet union

there is there's obviously a bipartisan

polarity has

american unipolar system has its origins

in the post-war bretton wood system now

there was a communist bloc and there was

a soviet bloc

but as far as the roots of the american

system are concerned that's nato that's

bretton woods

um it's the imf and someone agree with

that okay but that's not uni unipolarity

has a specific definition it is a it was

coined by charles krauthammer after the

fall of the soviet union and it was it's

more or less the same thing as

fukuyama's end of history it is

basically there is no i know a writing

system i know what polarity is because

when i say the word unipolarity that's

what i'm referring to okay so you're

just was nato a kind of extension of

america in the 1940s absolutely okay but

that's all i wanted to do things change

okay so how

than it was in 1945 germany is

re-arguing

you're right but that's remarkable yeah

you're right but guess what nato is i'm

sorry turkey's in nato nato as an

institution

has no further reason for it this is its

last

breath that it's taking uh against

russia's actions in ukraine europe is

internally divided between west and east

because uh the intermerium

uh

the forces that want to recreate the

intermerium poland and hungary and the

three seas alliance they're even they're

positioned against the franco-germanic

bloc so within europe you have these

very strong divisions positioned

strongly against russia right now what i

am saying is that this invasion has

revived something that i agree

was almost an identity crisis that is

nato how do we use this thing is it a

force for humanitarian interventions

should russia be a part of nato that was

actually floated at the end of the cold

war is it still against russia what do

we do with this thing

now it's actually due to this

the intern the internally and the

intermedium is something bloggers have

been talking about when it's been

poland's uh before you've heard

intermirium from various like

petty nationalists for years it the

clear by the seismic

bifurcation of europe is going to be

where it was more or less what you are

witnessing now in europe's newfound

sense of unity rallying around ukraine

is nothing more than the putrescence of

the american empire uh with its last

dying okay well you would say that when

they weren't you you said that like you

would say that a month ago yes when nato

was having an identity crisis now things

have changed data has changed the

situation has changed emotions have

changed and you're saying the same thing

the emotions you're witnessing the

emotions you're witnessing

hold on kind of propagating these

these strong emotions that you're

witnessing is a psychosis on a mass

scale to cope with the end of this

empire

well okay but it's a mass psychology

with you which i don't

that in itself

is like you're admitting to the fact

that nato has a raison d'etre even if

it's a psychosis and it is there is much

more unification there are countries

like sweden

excuse me

sweden and estonia that now in finland

that now want to join up and they

wouldn't have yeah

there's a new impetus for american and

that's what it is american aggression

against russia

but that doesn't actually say anything

about like an authentic polarity

uh authentic civilizational renewal it

has nothing to do with that okay

well that's your opinion i mean i i

you're just saying that though and

you're not like because because because

they're not arguing because because an

authentic uh

let's say polarity or civilizational

renewal

civilizational block

uh where they revive would not

principally be based upon um

weaponizing the old

uh

the last leg of the old arrangement

which was positioned against russia it

wouldn't be simply based off of huffing

the scopium about how oh russia's the

bad guy now we all need to unite against

russia well the material basis for the

anti-russian sentiment is a prior state

of affairs which was the 20th century

the post-war period the soviet union and

so on and so on so the unwillingness to

let that go

right attest to the fact

that they're not allowing themselves to

have the breathing room to discover

their own identity and so on and so on

they're still clinging to an arrangement

that's uh

led by the us assertion

with not an argument and the idea that

history doesn't matter is absurd

obviously russia vladimir putin in his

explicit statement has said that ukraine

they are our brothers maybe there are

prodigal sons we have ties between us

that that this is the foundation of the

russian empire kiev and moscow so you're

just claiming history they're holding on

to the past and they're not doing what i

want you didn't you didn't listen to it

you didn't listen you didn't you didn't

listen to what i said you didn't die you

didn't no no you didn't listen to what i

said reality so we can agree

that europe as an independent polarity

didn't exist after world war ii right

it's just led by the americans right

that has been the status quo

that has been the status quo up until

recently where the material foundations

for an independent uh european polarity

specifically because of the revival of

german industry and the revival of the

french market and so on and so on has

created the foundation for an

independent polarity in europe right

uh i understand what you're saying yeah

you were claiming that because they are

getting natural resources from germany

was getting natural resources from

russia

that that was a kind of foundation for

greater german independence is that

you're arguing precisely okay i get that

um and i

understand that and in fact in my heart

of hearts i don't want a

like division between east and west i

want greater unity so this this unity

okay

the unity that you're with

let me just be very clear about this the

unity that you are witnessing is not

based in people awakening to this

newfound independent polarity it's a

unity that is based on asserting the

identity of an arrangement that no

longer has a real authentic material or

civilizational foundation which is

american control of europe because they

want it like you don't like it but that

doesn't mean that it doesn't exist

and okay i don't know

why is it independent

opposed to nuclear power i hope germans

wake up and get nuclear power because

that is a much better so okay you know

what

let's cut the [ __ ] what's happening

okay

america is what it is let's cut the

[ __ ] let's cut the [ __ ] then and

i'll ask you very frankly

what could possibly be in europe's own

sovereign interest as a polarity

to

renew its hostilities with russia over

this specific question of ukraine why is

it in europe's interest go ahead

you they don't want to be invaded they

might be very well be wrong about that

i personally do not think that putin's

ambitions extend beyond ukraine

oh

this evokes

against

so what you're trying to sell to me

right now is that very genuinely

europe's reaction to what russia is

doing in ukraine is because they fear

they're going to be invaded by by putin

and by russia i yeah i wonder why

germans might fear an invasion by

russians i wonder where they got that

crazy it's it's okay then they can

answer your question let me ask you a

question how absurd you are you people

don't agree with you right and then you

say they didn't make a sovereign

decision all right when they don't agree

it's like it's like

so the the level you're you're yeah

spencer

you're getting just

you're getting your panties in a bunch

about this whole agreement thing we we

got to go out and clear your argument is

that i'm saying it because they don't

agree you don't have to keep repeating

that it's just a pointless

thing stop saying it is it so obvious no

because i'm not because my reasoning is

not based on no one agrees with you i

mean i just i don't know what to tell

you and you should probably embrace your

identity as a marginal figure who

promotes marxist leninism as opposed to

claiming that anyone who disagrees with

you isn't sovereign richard richard

richard richard i did not expect to come

have a debate with you for richard

[ __ ] spencer to tell me that i'm the

one who should awaken to the fact that

i'm a marginal figure okay so let's uh

simmer down and and sit down for a

little bit okay

now let's get i was the leader of the

new europe according to you i am leslie

looking at reality i am not claiming

that europe germany isn't sovereign we

are we need to get back to disagree

you're trying so you're saying that

europe's reaction right now is because

they fear russia is going to invade

europe and that this they have

historical precedent for this because

the soviet union took berlin after

operation bar

what are you [ __ ] trying to say what

is your point

yes there is real historical reasons why

france and germany as the two most

important countries in the eu would fear

invasion by foreign power

what what what what do you mean just

russia

russia's

you know when russia took berlin

you know that that was after they do you

know what happened right

are you trying to say the soviet union

just randomly decided to to push

eastward and and take berlin i mean the

soviet union

reached they packed with germany germany

invaded the soviet union in operation

barbarossa and then stalin pushed not

only pushed the german army out of his

sphere his gross realm if you will but

in fact it in fact moved forward and in

1945 clearly anticipated why why why

what's going on

soon become communist hold on we're

gonna put that on we don't have time to

debate about that but

that means that the soviet union was in

a defensive position to ensure they're

not going to be invaded again because lo

and behold they get randomly [ __ ]

invaded by western aggressors now based

on that history specifically that you

brought up yeah joseph stark

violence just wanted to play defense i

mean this is just

stalin stalin

the truth is there's no precedent for

adventurism on part of stalin he was

against adventurism and uh and this

trotsky's delusion of uh exporting the

revolution second of all uh

more or

less notion that he didn't roll across

europe

wow

no one will agree with that you rolled

across europe to literally he rolled

across europe to ensure the soviet union

does not get invaded again

now based on that history i think that

was one of the motivations basically it

was also about world war ii communism

then why didn't they take the west they

could have easily taken the west why

didn't they

they didn't exactly take the west

because they're the the british empire

that was flailing still at some point

the united states entered late it still

had some power the soviets got there

before anyone they got there before

anyway they could have taken whatever

they wanted they could have they made a

strategic decision not to but okay

stalin clearly assumed that capitalist

powers would turn on one another and

that you would soon have at least a

european stalin stalin believed as far

as you're getting into the ideological

[ __ ] let's just get back to the meat

and potatoes okay there's historic

there's like diaries and interviews that

indicate such things i'm not getting

into ideological [ __ ] you are so

let's get let's get back

it was no more an occupation of germany

than the western than america occupied

germany uh in the west so it was

formerly not an occupation it's just

that germany fell under

the germany

but people liked western germany a lot

more let's just put it that way

that's not necessarily true actually

it's not necessarily true whatsoever

did anyone sneak into east germany

there was a brain drain from the uh east

to the west that doesn't mean everyone

liked west germany more than the east

though it's not true

that's fair enough but like

you know and i i agree with you that

there's a kind of like decadent

temptation to a lot of the americanized

west

but

at the end of the day

like where would you want to raise a

family the east india

or like the east

where you would you want to raise a

family i mean if you're a bachelor who's

having fun probably you want to live in

the west but they eat for raising a

family of course you'd want to you won't

want to be in the morgue which realm had

higher birth rates

uh i'm not aware

okay

was it the west i'm assuring you

your point is that it's the west and

okay east has serious problems now

even east germany kind of resembles

eastern europe i mean

even today

to some degree it has serious problems

that that are uh you know kind of fairly

tragic to be honest and could be solved

um but like you clearly have soviet

nostalgia which is fine but like okay it

was much it was much better to raise it

was much better to raise a family in the

uh the east much better it's much better

to raise a family in being a ukrainian

farmer

it's solemnism maybe that's not the case

during one you want to bring up the the

famine of 33 and 34 and debate about

that because you can't actually talk

about um

why the [ __ ] europe would be against

russia right now if not because of a

mass psychosis and it has nothing to do

with europe's own interests

you've pivoted so much you said it's

because they fear being invaded by

russia what there's no there's no

precedent for russia invading europe

there's president for the west invading

russia though plenty of times

well yeah but like there's

yes napoleon hitler etc but there's like

the perspective of a european at the end

of the second world war was

you have these soviet tanks rolling in

taking over our countries well that's

that's what that's what happens

that's what happens when you invade a

country the country's going to push back

and

neutralize you

no but they they do developing soviets

the threat does deserve they do that the

military does deserve to be disarmed and

the threat should be neutralized the

criminals who attacked you should be

brought to justice and the government

that attacked you should be overthrown

yeah that's how it works

that's the way of war

it was a total war a complete total war

of uh annihilation and the soviets

were very um they showed a lot of mercy

to germany i basically agree but like

what is

like

please refrain from the moralization

like the ideas

the germans have no they have no reason

to expect it

why why should why should understandable

because it's hell on earth

there's what's so on earth i just

i i think the soviet union perhaps later

on i think it was actually pretty

reasonable and there's even when i was

living in berlin for a little while and

even in in bavaria there's a kind of

ostaugie kind of hipster you know

fantasy of the soviet days but like

let's just be brutally honest here

communism

sucked

i mean i disagree it's just

awful

which is completely irrelevant it's not

true but it's completely relevant what

does that have to do with the newfound

european unity against russia not being

based in any rational interest

historical memory

of communism russia's technique russia

doesn't live under the same system that

it used to

i know but they're easily aligned and

hold on and you know why you're

especially wrong yeah

you know why you're especially wrong

about this because all of this uh

anti-russian sentiment if it was just

based in being traumatized by communism

you wouldn't see such high rates of

nostalgia on part of the older

generations in eastern europe for the

con it says nothing to do even polish

nationalists

have inherited the legacy of the polish

communist system what you have are

competing forms of nationalism in

eastern europe that have specifically

defined themselves against russia that's

because communism was so bad it's

because they needed to fill the vacuum

left behind by the communist ideology uh

after the fall of the uh warsaw pact and

the soviet bloc so it's not because

they're fair enough i might actually

agree with a lot of what you just said

okay

so

there is no rational reason for

europeans to fear a russian invasion or

to oppose russia's actions in ukraine

it seems like good that politics has

nothing to do with rationality

can you admit to me that it's based on

moralism

no i'm not no

okay so what expression have any germans

or french formulated any in a

significant capacity

the ukrainian flag is the new george

floyd it's the new uh uh wear your mask

it's the new uh get vaccinated that's

what it is it's not based in any kind of

like raw self-interest on part of

germans or

that is the case on social media and

there's a lot of

you know it's the case in general that

resembles blm i agree with that yeah so

it's it's it's it's just it looks like

real okay if you want to look at social

media

you want it you want to you want to look

at you want to have changed over the

possibilities

any which way you look at it culturally

and sociologically this is an

astroturfed moralistic campaign

that people use to um to identify

themselves and virtue signal their

compliance

with the status quo and the institutions

that rule us on reddit on on twitch on

youtube wherever you go on twitter

people are doing this i disagree that

there's an element of that

however to claim that the real thing is

fully astroturfed is just wrong you

cannot just invent you

which you don't want half of the world

to put a ukrainian flag on their their

faces because because

there is something real

and in terms of like we're just

reestablishing the world order what i am

arguing is that the world has changed in

the past week

which would i change

i fundamentally disagree i fight for i i

fundamentally disagree you paradigm i

fundamentally disagree that this is

based

uh in something real

no one actually gives a [ __ ] about

ukraine it's just it's a it's a way of

expressing one's virtue signaling

toward the agenda of the prevailing

institutions which is being rewarded

through social feedback

yeah it has nothing it has nobody nobody

independently looks at this situation

and just independently comes it comes to

some kind of solid position on it

they're going with the flow of agency

according to you everyone's just a robot

or an npc

i think uh i think i think i think

writers aren't

you i do to a certain extent you said

that putting a ukrainian flag is a kind

of virtue signal i i will agree with

that but like to claim that no one has

agency or that there aren't real

historical and geopolitical factors at

play here is just ridiculous people i

think i think i think there is a reality

of uh

this type of which is lead who's has its

center by the way in the anglo-saxon uh

elites

which is this kind of condescending

sense of superiority of

over russians a kind of civilizational

racism uh europeans have over against

russians and against chinese and so on

and so on but the core of this identity

that makes it possible isn't based in

anything real within their own lives

it's based in institutions that

distinguish them and which interpolate

them

uh as subjects and to use uh less since

sounds like you're describing systemic

racism or something no no look no there

is a european identity no there are

smaller forms of european identity

but but the problem is the problem is

the problem is hold on hold on hold on

identity there is a russian identity

russian identity is based in russianness

we are russians it's our history it's

who we are same with chinese same with

anywhere else in the world but this

so-called european identity that you're

talking about is not based in any type

of uh particular european civilization

all you're doing is dehumanizing my

people

but this i this don't have an authentic

identity but you do no no maybe maybe

there is an authentic european identity

but i'm trying to say the one that is

being displayed now in this pledge of

allegiance to the ukrainian astroturfing

campaign is not based on that it's based

in a type of fake universalism a false

universalism and a type of proving of

one's reflexivity which is what all

these astrotaped campaigns are about you

say black lives matter you say take the

vaccine wear the mask because you're

expressing that you're conscientious or

you're civilized or you're somehow in

the know and and you're a universal

subject right the problem is that

europeans are not universal subjects

they're europeans so if they started

acting like europeans and not pretending

that there's

the universal subject of american

globalism they wouldn't be against

russia and condemning russia right now

they would just be looking after their

own interests the interests of germany

the interests of france the interest of

ireland whatever you want they wouldn't

be acting on behalf of some kind of

global universal interest

if you can create greater division in

europe that is better for russia russia

i'm sure was enthused by things like

brexit russia is enthused by petty

nationalist disputes the fact is part of

european identity

i agree is a kind of expansive

universal if you want to say arianism

no it's not but it's not dude hold on we

are

spencer spencer the reason you're the

reason you're you're universal the

reason you're a tragical figure history

doesn't exist spencer the reason you're

a tragical figure is because you're an

embarrassment you're kind of right it is

based on a type of racist neo-nazism

whatever but for the leaders of the

western world to come out and admit this

means the end of the western world basis

of uh soft power in the entire globe so

you're an embarrassment for them you air

the dirty laundry the dirty truth they

will never admit and it's a it's a

precondition for europe to not admit

this in order to maintain its so-called

uh unified identity so the problem which

what you're trying to say is that oh we

have this kind of universal arianism

again what they're pretending to be is

universal subjects in the abstract

they're not aryans they're not europeans

they're not whatever they're not any

type of particular person this is just

all universal humanity they say the

international community when in reality

it's just europe america and in

australia

they don't have that is all of that is

the last 30 years i think things are

dramatically when i talk about

civilizational racism i'm not talking

about systemic racism i'm talking about

how the fact for example one does not

become human a universal human subject

according to these liberal nazis

unless one is a redditor right if you

live in china or you live in russia or

whatever you are backward asiatic and so

on you don't have enough reflexivity

you're not conscientious enough but when

you're on reddit and you're a redditor

who's uh you know you like pokemon and

you like all that dumb [ __ ] that

they like right you play video games all

of a sudden you become humanized because

why you're being interpolated by

institutions and you're in the know in

the way that they are right so this is

what i mean by this sybil is i'm not

talking about uh some woke [ __ ] i'm

talking about a specific type of uh

uh historical false universalism that

europe has projected i i don't disagree

with what you're saying i think you're

making some interesting points

about the the that quest to kind of be

in the know and to be a kind of

cosmopolitan digital citizen or

something i i i think there's what

you're describing is a very real

phenomenon what i am saying in contra

distinction to that is that as we kind

of re-enter a new 20th century the

threat of a world war the threat of

nuclear conflict is in the air

that this is going to bring us back to a

harder grounded more militarized

identity and literally speaking in the

sense that france and germany are rapid

this identity has no substance there's

no substance to this identity it says

you i mean i don't i don't know what

okay tell me what it is tell me what

okay tell me what it's an assertion then

i'll ask you says me okay i'll ask you

what is the substance of this new

globalistic reddit

identity well i'm saying that i agree

with that that i i might not call it a

reddit identity but i i understand what

you're describing and i think that

there's a lot of truth to that but so

what's the stop saying

what i'm saying is that something else

is emerging we were entering that

downward spiral the nihilism the last

minute so what is the something else

what if american of the end of history

of america what is this what is the

something else that's emerging that's

not reddit liberal globalism

i mean

redditers don't

like re-arm

germany i mean

you're talking about so you're talking

about partial

you're talking about reddit with weapons

nuclear armed right not yeah i i you're

talking about i get what you're saying i

i get it and i'm granting you that what

i what i because you're describing a

real phenomenon which is good

all i'm saying is that there actually is

something else and that the current

world order is more what is this

something else what is its

arguing what is its wealth what is its

uh soul what is its uh

substance what is it except this

cosmopolitan uh digital uh identity or

whatever what is it

i i think it's a there there is a what's

logos i should say what is its logos

it's a better word to say what is its

like uh

what's its logos

i understand there is a kind of high mo

quest there's a sense of wholeness and

belonging that i think is desired by

every human being and that exists

certainly within western if you want

there is a broader quest

towards truth towards expansion towards

new vistas that is also this this this

sounds

this this is uh snow it's all salad no

meat and potatoes this does and i what

is this that's a that's a fair criticism

actually has you're asking me to

describe like european consciousness and

so i'm going to i'm i'm asking you

what's the real like give me an example

of russian give me

i can tell you russianness give me an

example for example give me an example

of the combination of apollonian and

martial qualities within western and

central european if i accepted this fine

fine even even if i accept this okay

you talk about rome and i'm talking

about right now we don't have rome we

have reddit what is corruptionness

what's russianness sure russianness is

uh

where can we even begin russianist is

based on uh a civilization uh huh sorry

rush hard do you see how it's hard no

it's not it's not hard it's it's

actually not it's a race it's not

particularly hard russia is based on a

type of determinant universalism a kind

of uh

a society that's

main theme is based on uh end times and

apocalypse and start forestalling the

the end times and so on but specifically

if you want to like get to the meat and

potatoes

okay from what i'm asking the equivalent

for my asking to you is russia has that

was somewhat airy fairy language and i

don't find apocalypse no no i don't i

just didn't know i didn't know what you

were asking for if you're asking for

that line if you're not you can answer i

can answer you very fairly

it's hard to describe you i thought you

i thought you were asking i thought you

were asking for an airy fairy equivalent

to what you said but if you want to know

uh well i appreciate what you said but

all i'm saying is it's a it's you have

to write a book on this no i don't i can

i can give you a simplification

uh russians

new kind of consciousness or new kind of

substance or logos is specifically based

in the russian sovereignty which is

because of the nationalization of the

oil sector which has created new russian

platforms new russian social media and

new type of russian identity which on

the one hand

has the kind of qualities of a universal

citizen but on the other hand has an

acute sense of determinant and situation

situatedness within the specific russian

identity so they don't moralize against

others and impose their way on others

but on the other hand they have the same

level of kind of uh

i guess the dynamism

that the redditors have right so same

technological savviness and

sophistication but sense of fundamental

groundedness in the particular russian

civilization i'm not specifically asking

you what defines you get that i think

that's a good description yeah yeah so

my question for you my question for you

is that when it comes to this new

european identity that you're saying is

being defined by anti-russian sentiment

and pro-ukraine sentiment what is that

based on what is that based on

i i have answered i have given you a

artsy version

what is it based on this

the except the state that contains the

the it is the state is rome that is the

ultimate political structure right

you're that's your that's your

interpretation but i'm asking you where

can we locate any type of uh

consciousness of this fact in the in the

european society we see the

manifestation we see is reddit you have

to admit that it's reddit globalist

liberalism i'm not going to admit that

that's the end-all be-all of european

sure you can you can try to cope and say

that the reddit globalist liberalism is

actually this resurrection of roman

martial uh spirit or something i'm not

saying that i'm not so where is the

roman marshall spirit where is it then

because what we have now is emerging

it's emerging and it is being kind of

catalyzed or sparked by some of the

things that we're seeing where is it

emerging it is emerging

there is a european union by the way

which does

it can only be i mean i agree it's you

know it starts and fits and starts but

it's emerging and fits and starts but it

has to be based on some sense of

commonality between western and so i'll

tell you the commonality the location

the commonality of the so-called

germanic and romantic we don't we're not

seeing that we're i'm not against that

but we're not seeing that they're not

against uh latin francois franklin

see you just want to see something that

you want to see as opposed to opening

your eyes i'm seeing what is actually no

i'll tell you what we actually have

so-called european values are not

european in particular

they are universal they're pretended

universal values of human rights and

liberty they're all negative abstraction

what is liberty what is freedom what

does this even [ __ ] mean it doesn't

mean anything determinate or particular

it's based on

i mean empty up liberal abstraction so

where do we find particular europe we

preach

okay but i agree with everything

but the the pro-ukraine sentiment and

the anti-russian sentiment

is not based on any type of part

european particularity it's based on

this american globalism

i agree i will grant you that and i've

already granted you this that a lot of

what you say is true what i am engaging

in

is a kind of a situational concept that

due to the historical realities of

russia and western and central europe

due to

a new kind of emotional

mood that's sweeping the continent due

to a kind of recognition of decline so

you think do you think this there is

chance a strong chance for something

that is much more spiritual and much