The Debate You've All Been Waiting For [POGAN DESTROYED!] 🚀 Infrared Content Catalog

so pogan let me ask you a question

guys this is on let me let me guys this

is what happens when i don't yell

this is what happens when i don't yell

over these fucking soy boy pieces of

shit cucks is that they constantly

fucking uh gesture around and they do

this fucking bullshit which you deemed

as an essential component of my analogy

which was the key word sympathetic

proved itself to be entirely inessential

you would fail the lsat you'd never be

allowed in law school you are genuinely

a almost naturally stupid person get the

shit out of your fucking ears and stop

wasting our time you dumb fucking pig

so let's begin yeah go for it

you are wrong

about the details surrounding russia's

invasion of ukraine okay and

what about well actually you made a

video saying that i lied uh about the

situation what did i lie about uh the

representation of ukraine as

staunchly neo-nazi sympathetic and

somehow beholden to like ultra-ukrainian

nationalism in the way that you were

describing in addition to forwarding the

idea that um there's some reason de

facto to believe that ukraine is in

possession of bio-weapons facilities

merely based on the statements made by

russian scientists beautiful so there's

it's actually two-pronged so the first

prong

refers to the

over-representation of neo-nazis in the

ukrainian government and in the

ukrainian state as well as the

overwhelming prevalence of ukrainian

ultranationalism in defining the state

of ukraine right

and the second thing is about the as

victoria newland call them research

facilities within ukraine

so can i ask real quick can i ask a

clarifying question sure um when you

when you say

like ukraine is neo-nazi blah blah blah

blah

um i take it you're referring to

something further than azov

um yes what's your take on

and you don't like this is we'll get

into the meat and potatoes here as you

like to say in a second what's your take

on things like uh wagner group and

russian government neo-nazis wagner

group

is not tied to the russian government in

any official capacity it's not given any

official sanction whatsoever wait that's

i well of course i agree but the point

is that it's not tied to the government

officially right because it provides

plausible deniability for wagner group

operations on the behalf of the kremlin

all right do you have any evidence of

these operations being on behalf of the

kremlin depend well let's cl do you when

you say on behalf do you mean the

operations are conducted in tandem with

russian military forces to achieve

russian strategic objectives i'm asking

you for evidence that the russian

government is ordering the wagner group

to do things to fulfill its own aims

seems like that would be conducive to

i'm sorry consistent with plausible

deniability oh so you have no proof

well i mean you don't have any proof

about the neo-nazis wagner is a private

military company what is azov

uh it's a member it's a component of the

ukrainian national guard right

and

and your claim is that because azov is a

component it's not just because of azov

well i i grasp that right but i'm saying

like you're so let me just be come on

let me just just chill out man

the relevance of pointing out that azov

is a component of the ukrainian national

guard presumably

right correct me if i'm wrong here is to

point out that because it's

uh directly reporting to the ukrainian

government at least in some capacity

that's reason to make what conclusion

that ukraine's government is neo-nazi

sympathetic overall

that they're at least tolerant of

neo-nazis

that's the minimal conclusion if we

discount the host of other facts

such as the fact that the azov battalion

is extremely over represented when it

comes to the military operations that

are undergone in eastern ukraine when it

comes to the fact that ukrainian

officials claim that azov was the quote

the best of ukraine's fighters

uh when you take into account finally

the fact that the azov battalion is not

even the only ultranationalist neo-nazi

battalion within ukraine you also have

the adar battalion you have a picture of

the ukrainian armed forces that

overwhelmingly shows um neo-nazi

sympathetic elements being extremely

over-represented

right okay so do you further believe

that that's reason to invade the country

of ukraine uh that is not well you just

shifted the goalposts we're talking

about whether neo-nazis have

overwhelming over-representation in the

ukrainian state how did i shift the goal

posts without making a claim because the

question of the the question of the

justification for russia's invasion

would have to

lead to more prongs

right i just i just asked two questions

the first was do you think what like

what's the relevance of azov with

respect to their ukrainian government

now with question one question two was

what do you think

uh is the relevance of that in terms of

justifying russian military operations

there's an overall context that needs to

be clarified before we can uh

explore that question and just give me

let me open like a notepad document here

in one second

just to just to clarify um would you be

willing to state like right now for my

benefit you believe the russian invasion

is justified correct yes but okay cool

um and a component of that justification

is their objective to denotify the

country is that right yes

okay

um and you think as of in addition to

some other things you'll mention i'm

sure in a second

is a reason to think that

the

i i doubt you would say like the

majority of the ukrainian population is

nazi sympathetic right

no

okay cool so it's just the government

then

uh i would call it the deep state what

does that mean so there's two levels of

every modern government in the world

except with actually a few exceptions uh

china and russia actually being among

them

where you have the official state with

like its official parties in parliament

representation and then you have like

the military and the intelligence

operatives and oligarchs and also thug

militias that are receiving orders from

these elements basically like people who

pull the strings in a non-official

capacity okay

so you so you generally think

denotification is one of a set of

reasons that another country can invade

another country

yeah um no not in a vacuum not as some

kind of abstract precept are you knowing

a cumulative case denotification is part

of the wider context of the geographic

and historical realities of ukraine and

russia but it's just the government i

thought because you remember when i said

is the population generally nazi

sympathetic you weren't you said you

weren't willing to make what's the

relevance of the population not being

overwhelmingly nazi sympathetic the fact

that a whole fucking ton of them are

getting killed right now by russian

military forces how many exactly i'm

sure it's in the thousands you want an

exact number you're not like actually

civilians

are you doubting civilians have died i

don't know i'm not hold on i'm not

denying there's been um collateral

damage right so what does the number

matter

the number matters the number matters

because

the number matters because

if russia is waging like a systematic

effort to target civilians and engage in

a genocide or something like that then

yes your argument would be no no i

didn't explain they were genociding

ukrainians i made the claim that if it's

the case that you think at least one

component of the justification for the

invasion is denotification

right

then you'd have to further say something

like well that's going to either alone

or as part of a cumulative case justify

the civilian casualties inflicted as a

consequence of this invasion right i

don't know the exact number i'm pretty

sure it's in the thousands if you

fucking really want it i'll find it

although those are going to be western

sources though you'll probably just i

don't scream about it so it is your

point is not relevant you the ukrainian

neo-nazi population does not have to be

neo-nazi sympathetic in order for

collateral damage of civilians well i

don't even accept that the government is

neo-nazi sympathetic but the point i'm

making is if the objective is to

denouncify ukraine

part of that objective means

demilitarizing ukraine uh and defeating

the azov battalion in the in these

elements slow down slow down we're

getting ahead of ourselves now it's

demilitarizing ukraine we were talking

about denotification

well they're hand in hand because the

nazis in question are overwhelmingly

represented within the military okay

wait it is the view of the russian

government as a matter of fact that the

military is in control of ukraine and

not even the president zelinski i don't

doubt that

i don't doubt that the there are

elements of the ukrainian armed forces

that are neo-nazi right even beyond

pretty much every standing military in

the world especially western ones yeah

but ukraine has a disproportionate uh an

over-representation of neo-nazis

relative to almost any military anywhere

else in the world

are you saying that the majority of the

ukrainian military is nazi sympathetic

the majority mean conscripts

or the military establishment i'm just

trying to get cl this is the same

problem we had in dms like a year ago

right i'm trying to get clarity on what

exactly it is you're claiming and it

seems like you're very careful not to

say just exactly what you mean what i'm

hearing is this you can correct me if

i'm mistaken here right

you think

that

the ukrainian armed forces

are somehow kind of like innately or at

this point they're not so i would call

them not so fight

okay as like a co as like an institution

collectively yeah the people the upper

echelons that run that institution yes

they're not suffied is the source for

that claim primarily russian reporting

um it has to do with the

over-representation of neo-nazis in the

ukrainian armed forces military

operations that's not the question i

asked you the question i asked you i

answered your question and some no it's

not simply because of russian sources i

don't know what the source has what are

the other sources um i don't think it's

contested that 10 to 15 000

of the total of the ukrainian national

guard

are part of battalions that are

ultra-nationalist neo-nazis

but your claim is that the ukrainian

armed forces simplicator are not

sufficed yeah how many how many how many

units total are in the ukrainian armed

forces

do you know i know that there's 50 000

in the national guard so so even by

presumably the sources that you're

referring to which i'll take your word

there not just russia but at least some

of it's going to be russia right

even by that standard less than what

like let's do some quick math right

uh it's been a while since i've done

yeah but before you do the math just to

be clear

it's not relevant because i've never

claimed that the majority of consoles

are 30

roughly right 30 so let me just explain

to you basic logic the majority of

conscripts within the ukrainian armed

forces are not safe

hold on don't interrupt me the majority

of constructs

are not neo-nazis what reflects in armed

forces in its actual character has to do

with the intentions that are directed at

the level of leadership that define it

as an institution conscripts are just

ordinary people okay and even even

even no we're not getting off hold on

we're not getting off track

because it is not a neces it is not true

that there has to be a majority of

conscripts that are neo-nazis in order

for the armed forces to be claimed to be

something that's nazified i didn't say

it was dependent on the majority of the

so why are you pointing out that there

is

and this is only this is a really

waiting only because 30 is still a fuck

ton

well that's again yeah i agree but

that's assuming the sources that you

haven't provided to me are legitimate

but we'll just grant that they are

because i like to be charitable okay

according to a bbc documentary

c14 runs the ministry of defense

are you done

we'll say what you want to say

yeah so let's assume that the sources

you're using for this 30

uh ukaf claim

are legitimate um and i'd like to just

say on like one topic here instead of

jumping all over the place

you are saying that the government of

ukraine

zolensky as their president is beholden

to this military and therefore the

russian campaign of denotification

is justified now that's going to depend

on a number of things being

substantiated the first thing it's going

to depend on uh substantiation for is

that the number's that high i haven't

heard a source for that yet the second

thing it's going to depend just just

real quick the second thing it's going

to depend on is

a reason to think the government in the

way that you're describing is actually

beholden to these ultra-nationalist

elements in the ukrainian military right

which is which itself is a claim that

requires evidence

so

if you can show me both of those things

if you can show me the numbers are

accurate

um the evidence like checks out there's

no problems with methodology there's no

like very obvious like implicit bias in

the reporting and then you can also show

that there's reason to think zolensky's

administration is really just

subservient to like uh what'd you call

it the

ukrainian generals right the the highest

echelons of the military

um that'd be cool

so what exactly are you asking for

i just stated clearly what i was asking

for

there was nothing clear about what you

asked whatsoever give me something

precise you want what do you i that's

like insane to say i asked for evidence

evidence claims that you made

i just told you the first thing about

that ukrainian government is not

sufficed

or i should say that's deliberately

that's a deliberately unnuanced take

ukrainian state is nazified is that a

question you're looking for

oh

sorry i just stated the two things that

i'm looking for evidence for you want

evidence that the 30 claim holds yeah i

want evidence that the number of people

who you described as nazi sympathetic

like that's an accurate it's not the

number of nazi sympathetic people it's

number of battalions that are in their

official as organizations

are ultra nationalists and or neo-nazis

okay

yeah so do you have a source for that

one and then we'll tackle the second one

afterwards sure someone get the source

and put it in fact checking wait you

don't have the source on hand i don't

have it on hand okay

someone go ahead and put it in fact

checking put the combined battalions

which comprise ten to fifteen thousand

this uh based underscore superstructure

gentleman posted something from the gray

zone

is that the

is that the one

that you remember

i don't think it's here

okay all right all right well i mean

like

hopefully you can understand the point

that i'm making because you know i'm i

like to pride myself as a relatively

anti-nazi person and you know when this

war first happened and everybody by the

way it's being the gray zone is not

going to be relevant

uh considering the fact that you have to

question where those primary sources are

coming from it doesn't matter like yes

the gravesite has an agenda to present

primary sources in this way

but the primary source would still stand

i don't actually want you to be angry

like all i did was chuckle i didn't say

it was like bullshit or anything on its

face i just did a little laugh you know

after someone go ahead and post not

everything's like the end of the world

you know post the combined numbers of

all those battalions all you really have

to do is tally them up

like all you literally have to do is

take all like you have to do two things

i have to prove to you these battalions

are neo-nazis or nationalists and then i

have to prove to you that the numbers of

the people who constitute those

battalions are

accurate uh

sorry i kind of zoned out at the second

part but the first part yeah correct

yeah

okay how would i be able to do that for

you

i mean you well for the first thing with

the numbers you specifically cited that

you had evidence you further said it was

actually no i'm talking about proving

that they are neo-nazis in the first

place you want the numbers first

you made the claim they were neo-nazis

yeah

right so that's on that's your burden

right you would have to okay

okay so is the azov battalion neo-nazi

yes yeah okay is the idarb italian

neo-nazi

uh i don't know what that is show me

something about it

okay where do you go i'm open

you can dm me i don't think you have me

blocked or anything

i can only dm

friends do you want to be my friend haas

absolutely not

okay

all right fine just put it in like

uh fact checking or whatever i don't

care all right so this is the idar

battalion you can just look at the

wikipedia and it's in fact checking the

eidar battalion is right here in

wikipedia

sure and we'll work just to clarify

we're working our way up very gradually

to 30 right that's the number that you

cited is that correct that's what you

said i said 10 to 15 000 of ukraine's

national guard out of 50 000 standing

military units in the national guard

right which would be 30 right and

compared to the ukrainian armed forces

at large

uh depending on whether or not you want

to combine standing and reserved

personnel that's up to you but we'll

just go with standing to be charitable

ukraine has 200 000 active military

personnel 200 000 active okay so that

would be

0.075 percent of the uk oh sorry i

didn't multiply by 100. don't believe me

on that one

7.5 percent of the military no this is

also something destiny did why do you

think that the conscripts

are what's going to define

instant what defines an institution's

ideological orientation

i didn't say it did i'm saying there's

not even material or relevant to an

institution's ideological orientation

uh of the number of conscripts it's

literally

kind of you kind of just fucked yourself

because if it's not relevant to the like

ideology of the institution you wouldn't

be fighting it you are using it as

evidence

but you're the one who asked for the

conscripts in the first place i never

attributed to them significance

that's a that's right the 30

it doesn't even i clarified to you

even before we talked about it that it

was like it doesn't even matter because

that's not what defines an institution

like that was very early on in our

argument about it you want proof of that

it's the 30 or whatever

um

whoever listed them list all the

battalions again and we'll just tally up

their total members yeah so the problem

is if you thought it it doesn't really

matter if i asked or not because you

saying in response to that question

because i remember i asked you

originally no it wasn't in response hold

on hold on hold on i'll you can correct

me in a second

when i asked you like hey haas you know

good bud if you think they're like

neo-nazis and denotification is one of

the many acceptable justifications for

russian military operations right what

what do you you know what you're gonna

point to azov right i said kind of

mockingly and you said oh well there's

more battalions than just azov you know

there's 15 000 fucking total standing

neo-nazi pieces of shit and i said okay

cool so let's get the evidence for that

right that's how the conversation went

down and i'm just pointing out to you

now wait hold on i promise okay hold on

then you said

after i said that you said

that that's not a majority and then i

said it doesn't matter if it's not a

majority if it's only ten to fifteen

thousand

um

because and then i made the argument in

question okay so now you're shifting the

goal post and you're saying okay i want

the evidence actually of the amount

right are you conceding that the number

well actually we can take a step back on

that one are you now saying that the

presence of neo-nazis in the ukrainian

military is not germane to whether or

not the ukrainian military is neo-nazi

at its core like has a fundamental

neo-nazi ideology or whatever that's

what i'm hearing hogan just a question

are you a fucking idiot

on tuesdays maybe it's today tuesday so

look at what you just said the presence

of neo-nazis what does what constitutes

that presence are we talking about in

the leadership are we talking at an

institutional level or are we talking

about conscripts because i'm not saying

that the evidence that's your claim was

that the government was neo-nazi the

state yes yeah yeah yeah so why'd you so

why even mention the conscripts at all

why give me a number i don't know i

don't know why we're talking you're just

confused you just randomly threw a

number you are the one who wanted to

talk about the conscripts i did mention

the several other battalions whose

combined total

is 30 30

number of conscripts of the ukrainian

armed forces are the conscripts evidence

for the neo the government being

neo-nazi no but the battalions are

that's what i'm trying to tell you it's

not about the conscripts it's about the

battalions right okay and the number of

total

the number of conscripts

that are under the battalions relative

to the ukrainian armed forces is what's

significant not the conscripts

themselves how many okay so you're

saying the battalions are the evidence

for the government being no nazis so how

many how many soldiers total are in

these specifically neo-nazi battalions

like all together

what i heard is 10 to 15 000. so the

exact thing we just went over for the

last 30 minutes is relevant then despite

what you're saying right because then

that is

hold on the denip euro okay finally we

got it dinipra battalion idar azov

ginipur 1 the kneeper 2 and dawn bass

volunteer militials uh a battalion is

that's okay so the minimum

is seven thousand uh

and the military analysts have claimed

that azov has gone to a brigade of three

thousand so there's at least ten

thousand we actually know it's at least

ten thousand we know of

i'm gonna talk about

a second fact-checking sure cool out of

a standing active duty military of like

two hundred we're talking about the

ukrainian national guard right now okay

how many which has been conducting the

majority of the operations

uh if not all the operations oh wait but

we just wait wait wait wait wait wait

just just two seconds we just went over

both the military

itself right the 200k figure as well as

what i thought you gave as the

total national guard

standing personnel which was 50k is that

correct what's your point

the numbers that i've been providing you

for the last 20 minutes are still

completely relevant

that it's only 7.5 percent

the 7.5 is the ukrainian armed forces

collectively it was 30 if you want to

just look at the national yeah so

what is significant

yeah what is significant about nearly

yeah what

sorry i just had to knock on your door

um yeah it's 30

just with the national guard that was

the point okay what is your point what's

the point of that i guess what is your

point that's still a lot you started

throwing these numbers at me presumably

as a way to further the claim that

well ukraine quote-unquote was a

neo-nazi country which by by which you

really meant the government is neo-nazi

uh like

neo-nazi idea when did i say ukraine is

a neo-nazi country

i mean that's that i said the ukrainian

state and more specifically the deep

state is nazified

right and you gave those battalions as

evidence by your own admission right uh

as one of the pieces of evidence for

that sure

okay so just let's just get down to the

nitty-gritty one of the pieces of

evidence you have for the ukrainian

government being nazi

is the fact that 30 percent of the

national guard aka 7.5 percent of the

total you uh sorry ukrainian armed

forces standing personnel

is

nazi

uh sympathetic or holds nazi ideology

according to sources that i have not

been provided including presumably the

russian government's own report so what

are what are we arguing about the

sources or granting that this is just

true

because if i provide you the sources i'm

sure you have an argument lined up right

okay so this is this is a source source

for the list of battalions

funded by kolominski who's one of the

ukrainian oligarchs wait but this is the

same gray zone article you said earlier

wasn't yours it's literally wikipedia

oh you're not you so you're not talking

about the thing that based

superstructure guy dude posted it's

literally something warlock just listed

on wikipedia

uh chris morlock

if you want to fall into question the

primary source is utilized by that

grayson article you're more than welcome

to i don't know why you're jumping on me

for for things that aren't coming out of

my mouth i didn't say anything about

like gray zone's primary sources what i

said is

look i'll just restate the problem okay

okay you are saying you are saying look

at both of them

i will in a second you are saying that

the ukrainian government

is a nazi government one of the pieces

of evidence for this claim is the

presence of neo-nazi you want to grant

me the fact and then make your argument

then

i mean i would have to look at i know

azov is neo-nazi i'd have to look at the

other battalions okay so are you gonna

grant change of facts

okay

but then make your own

i can grant it for the sake of argument

but even if i grant it right just

inductively right because of how like

probabilistic evidence works how

induction works

saying that it's it's going to be strong

evidence that the the government is nazi

based on

the presence of neo-nazis and 30 of the

guard and 7.5 percent of the ukrainian

armed forces together on its face is

just weak evidence even if you grant

that the evidence is okay that's what i

wanted to get to so the reason that's

not true is because

that assumes that there's an equal

proportion of relevance in the ukrainian

armed forces and turning in terms of

defining the power of the institution

and the exercise of power thereof but as

it happens he said again that was

confusing

that assumes there is an

equal that assumes that like every

single there's an equal level of

significance as far as like the number

of battalions and conscripts are

concerned in terms of how heavily they

weigh in defining the institution of the

ukrainian army i don't know why i don't

know why we're talk you said the

conscripts aren't what's important

what's important okay look just focus on

that seven seven point five percent

right uh-huh yeah

that assumes let's just do it in terms

of percentages then right so let's make

it clear i know you're a stupid person

so we're just going to make this clear

that

okay is that is there's 7.5 and then

there's

92.5 percent right

well in order for these and ever in

order for the 7.5 to not be strong

evidence

every percentage of the total has to

have equal representation and

significance

in terms of defining

the institution

for example for example

this is this is a complete tangent right

no offense look the point is seven point

five percent of the ukrainian armed

forces being nazi sympathetic

right you're trying to

why isn't that evidence i'm explaining

what you're missing is the connective

tissue here you need to connect that to

the idea that

the ukrainian government actually more

specifically the ukrainian deep state

still i don't even really i've been

trying to do that but you cut me off

okay fair enough so what's the

connective tissue there the connective

tissue is the fact that that 7.5 percent

has over representation in defining the

institution of the ukrainian armed

forces and in terms of as measured by

its activities so

now the claim is that the 7.5 percent is

in fact

i guess dictating the ideology for the

remaining 92.5 percent implicitly

more if we measure it based on the

activity of the armed forces yes

they are the vanguard

they are to quote one of the the

president of ukraine at the time um

poroshenko

the best of ukraine's fighters and he

was referencing the azov the other

battalions have also behind azov been at

the vanguard of operations in eastern

ukraine which has defined the majority

of the war that had been going on for

eight years against the so-called

separatists in eastern ukraine i think

you might actually be committing

i forget which one it is it's either the

composition fallacy or the opposite one

i forgot the name for it

but you're trying to sure you're trying

to extrapolate

without real evidence because you're

just i guess we're just talking about

like

implications now you're trying to

extrapolate 7.5 percent of the ukrainian

armed forces being

i guess explicitly a neo-nazi itself

requiring evidence that we still need to

look at into

the remainder of the ukrainian armed

forces and by extension the ukrainian

government and the quote-unquote deep

state is nazi sympathetic as a

consequence of that

no hogan the problem is that you're just

not a smart person yeah i i understand

we don't know let's just have a blank

slate right tabula rasa we don't know

first of all how significant that seven

point five percent is i am not saying

they are significant x nicolo

you and i right now arguing we don't

know right then why then that if you

don't know what the importance of that

is it makes it no i do know but not

within the context of the initial

argument

so there's two arguments being so this

isn't evidence for your argument then

hogan 7.5

nothing has nothing was clarified i

should say that's what i mean to say

nothing was said or clarified that's

what i mean we don't know we the

audience and you nothing was clarified

as to the question of how significant

they are now if every percentage of that

100 total is equally

proportionate

um then you would be right 7.5 is not

strong evidence what do you mean by

proportionate it seems like when you're

saying proportionate what you're meaning

is just the influence they have on the

collective ideology

yeah they're proportional

the disproportionate influence they okay

well that's that's that by its very

nature unless you have evidence which i

would love to see okay i have evidence

like that

battalion no no no listen listen to the

thing before you you assume what i'm

going to say

you're saying that that 7.5 percent has

a disproportionate effect on the overall

ideology why why am i saying that but

why aren't you doing that you appeal to

the i understand you appealed to the

quote you

referenced earlier no i'm not i'm

appealing to evidence that has not been

even brought up yet because you keep

fucking interrupting me i'm referring to

the fact

that the azov battalion almost

single-handedly recaptured cities like

mariopol throughout the duration of the

civil war you don't know how significant

these battalions are and that's

literally what i'm trying to tell you

you just don't know how significant they

are you're assuming they're just as

significant as every other sector of the

ukrainian armed forces

what they're not the facts show that

they're not no i didn't make that

assumption i just gave you the number

okay so why are you saying 7.5 is not

strong evidence when you don't know

whether it would be strong evidence or

not it would be strong evidence

it is strong evidence if seven point if

that seven point five percent was at the

vanguard of the their operations then it

would be good evidence i don't know what

you mean by vanguard

you're saying

in eastern ukraine for eight years well

that's just repeating your statement

what i'm saying is you're trying to make

like some implicit claim here that they

have like

a disproportionate influence on the

ideology and belief system of the rest

of the military and i'm just saying

not only has no reason been provided for

that other than the quote that you

referenced i guess even like like it

still doesn't show me that

all i would have to demonstrate do you

mind if i finish my salmon please go

ahead finish it it doesn't it doesn't

actually demonstrate that there's any

further reason to believe that the

initial claim which is uh that the

ukrainian deep state government is nazi

sympathetic

has been raised in probability to be

true right you're trying to make an

inductive case and i just don't see the

induction really panning out it's not

cogent i i did pogan because

i literally did

what do you mean i did

i didn't hear it yeah

only yeah it's like it's like only nine

percent of german nazis were were

committed actively involved in the

holocaust so what does that mean nazism

but like does that mean like it's not

strong evidence

the relationship between nazism and the

holocaust the reason that's disanalogous

is because

pretty much every member of the uh

german armed forces the vermont the

waffen-ss et cetera right the schwaffel

themselves pretty much every element of

them as a mere condition

of being sworn into the nazi party and

then whatever military detachment they

were sworn into had to directly swear

loyalty to adolf hitler a guy who has

explicitly said multiple times beginning

in like the late 20s that he fucking

hates jewish people right that's a

complete disadvantage that just because

he hated jewish people does not actually

mean

that they were directly complicit in the

holocaust no you're not understanding

the point the point is merely by me

being like a card-carrying nazi party

member

right you're swearing your loyalty to

the guy making these statements publicly

and being very very fucking open and

transparent about it

you don't even understand the analogy

i'm not even stating

the point is it's completely dis

analogous because i'm gonna let you

finish what you were saying just to

fucking prove to you you're wasting my

time so go ahead and finish your stupid

fucking sentence bogan

i'm actually a big fan of the game thing

that was cool finish it finish it finish

it shut finish it so you can shut your

pig mouth go ahead

yeah so the point is there's unless you

have some secret tape recording of

zelinski saying like

bro nazis are dope and shit my man uh

there's no reason to think that people

one by being in the ukrainian armed

forces subscribe to any sort of ideology

like that simplicator 2

that

because azov and of these other

battalions are referencing

are

supposedly as you claim

disproportionately influential in the

ideology that by extension

a majority or even a significant

component of the ukrainian armed forces

subscribed to anything resembling a nazi

ideology that's what we're missing we

need some code you're going to shut the

fuck up now all right because this has

gone on too long logan my analogy was

not about i'm gonna i'm gonna mute i

gotta mute this dumb fuck you're gonna

shut up you're gonna shut your pick my

pig mouth oink oink you're gonna suck

your pig mouth hogan

you're my favorite streamer pogen i

wasn't trying to say

that the situation with the german armed

forces relative to nazi ideology is the

same in in the case of ukraine i was

saying only nine shut the fuck up you're

getting muted you're getting fucking

muted there we go now the pig can shut

the fuck up pogen you have to very very

carefully listen to me like very slowly

i know you're a stupid fuck your brain

can't handle this so listen very slowly

trust me you're gonna feel really stupid

after i say it what i said is that if we

assume

nine percent of german nazis were

actively involved in perpetrating the

holocaust

the analogy is to the 7.5 of the

ukrainian armed forces but the object is

completely different one is about

neo-nazi ideology the other one is about

active involvement and culpability in

the holocaust

you made the assumption that what i was

talking about was nazi ideology in

germany these

neo-nazi ideology in ukraine it's not

what i'm talking about i'm talking about

the proportion of a total political

organization

or armed forces

can

in terms of percentages doesn't have to

be anywhere near a majority in order for

the institution as a whole to be defined

by them

those nine percent of nazis who

perpetrated the holocaust

defined

almost the entirety of nazism's legacy

as being responsible for the holocaust

despite that it was only nine percent

okay now analogously

not just because of them but analogously

if 7.5

percent of ukraine's armed forces

are neo-nazis it is possible not

necessary because that requires more um

explanation but it is definitely

possible that that five seven point five

percent can more than easily define the

institution of the ukrainian armed

forces as having nazi persuasions or as

something that's nazified so that is my

argument very simply now you can respond

to what i actually said instead of

wasting my fucking time yeah that

doesn't follow um the reason it doesn't

follow is because when you're talking

about the 7.5 percent of ukrainian armed

forces um that are like neo-nazi or

whatever right let's grant it for the

sake of argument you're talking about

people that though they may be explicit

in their beliefs and their political

ideology

the further claim that you're making the

one where you're talking about how

they're so influential on the rest of

the military is one that's just sort of

being thrown in there without further

cause or further explanation so i'll

explain why that's not the same as the

the vermonter like shutstaffer case

in the case of the vermont the schwitz

staffel the often ss right

uh those people not only by being

card-carrying nazi party members

explicitly subscribed to

um the ideology not relevant the

ideology is perfectly relevant no no

it's not the holocaust

not only do they explicitly subscribe to

the ideology of adolf hitler right by

being in the party they actually further

um were divided up into detachments

specifically tasked with carrying out

the objectives of the holocaust

etc etc so what you're saying is that it

wasn't only nine percent well i'm saying

that well unless you want to disagree

i'm saying that because those people

were card-carrying nazi party members if

they did not renounce their party

membership if they didn't like actively

take a stand against their orders i

think pretty much every german military

member is complicit in the holocaust to

a varying degree okay then why didn't

you just say that you're just saying

that has you were wrong about nine

percent so let me actually um rewind i

did i just use this then let's let's

rewind it by saving ourselves time and

using a hypothetical what if only nine

percent of nazis committed the holocaust

and 91 percent had no clue what was

going on would nazism's legacy still be

defined by the holocaust

yeah

why when only nine percent were carrying

it out uh because every every member of

the nazi military swears allegiance to

adolf hitler the guy carrying it out

okay sure so let me explain this to you

analogously okay

in the same way that in this

hypothetical that nine percent is

responsible you're not gonna say

zelinski's like like a nazi zelinski

doesn't lead the real ukrainian state

that i'm claiming is not sufficient

well that's important then because i'm

i'm going to go off wait but

initially i said the ukrainian deep

state i didn't say the official

ukrainian state and zielinski so let's

be clear that the ukrainian military

actually runs the government then please

hold on before we get there that was an

initial premise of this entire

engagement which you knew about so if

you want to talk about that we're going

to have to finish this one first okay

because you seem to got

gotten us somewhere without contesting

it that's actually not true what i could

what i conceded to was that the numbers

you threw out regarding the number

my claim is that the ukrainian deep

state and including the armed forces was

nazified now you're talking about

zelensky okay so you you've got that's

not true when i said do you think the

government is nazi you said yes that's

not true because the real government of

ukraine is nazified right so that would

mean if i said government and you really

meant deep state and i meant which i

clarified very early on and you did not

take any time to confess well we could

we can get into that but just to clarify

that doesn't mean like i'm prima facie

saying that i agree with the premise

that there is a deep state and that it's

run by the military just well but we got

this far without you challenging that

premise okay that's because we spent so

now we're going to get here so so

so pogan it actually doesn't matter who

the real president of ukraine is because

by analogy these neo-nazis

these neo-nazi battalions are a function

of the intentions of the ukrainian state

as an institution in the same way that

the holocaust was a function of the

intentions of the nazi party right

adolf hitler ran the uh the german

government right who what does it matter

who runs the government we never explain

the relevance

but it doesn't listen

let's say okay

let's say kermit the frog was the head

of the nazi party then it doesn't make a

difference as far as their culpability

in the holocaust does it it doesn't

matter who's running

i explained why it did the reason it

does the reason it has relevance yeah

and a further reason for this analogy is

again because

merely by joining the nazi party

right you are agreeing to uh follow the

orders and you swear allegiance to adolf

hitler okay sure so

merely okay so the by announcing you're

familiar with that right you're familiar

with like how nazis when they joined the

party they didn't swear loyalty to like

the constitution of germany it's a party

it's i know what a party is poland no no

no no no no it's small yeah it's a party

why would a party swear allegiance to

the constitution careful when the party

is not the state you dumbass it's a

party because because

the vermont right

when they become german soldiers german

infantry whatever

they don't swear like you know how when

you join the military in america you're

like i swear to protect and uphold

because the where mock belongs to the

german state you're not under you're not

a state and a party are not the same

thing you dumb fuck

that you're not listening to me when you

join the u.s military you go i swear

loyalty to the constitution of the u.s

and blah right when you became a vermont

soldier fairmont infantry you didn't say

fucking anything like that you said i

swear loyalty to god damn adolf hitler

and that was the point chancellor of

germany hold on almost done adolf

hitler's on stage for years prior to

this saying the jews are the problem you

swear loyalty to the chancellor of the

german state

are you saying that german infantry

soldiers did not swear loyalty directly

to hitler

yes because he was the champion

historically incorrect because he was

the chancellor of the german state you

are historically incorrect what am i

incorrect about they did in fact swear

loyalty i didn't deny that pogen i said

it's because he's the chancellor of the

german state get the shit out of your

fucking ears and stop wasting our time

you dumb fucking pig

so you agree they swore loyalty to

hitler yes who was the chancellor of the

german state

whatever but you agree they swore

because he was the chancellor of the

german state yes and he was an

anti-semite

yeah and you think like germany and yeah

we know he's an anti-semite you don't

have to say things we all know but the

thing is pogen the relevant point is

that in this hypothetical you just

agreed that if only nine percent of the

members of the nazi party

committed the holocaust right and 91 did

not

that doesn't change the nazi party's

culpability in the holidays i don't know

you're still missing the point the point

the reason why we would think the

culpability thing is different there is

because in the case of the vermont right

you just agreed yeah they do swear

loyalty shut the fuck up about the

weremock yeah i have to do like a from

scratch thing because you're just

confused at this point let's let's do

the cookie monster in genesis

we're going to do the cookie monster

genocide so elmo has an army of 5 000

people or he has a party of 5 000 people

and there's a whole specimen of cookie

monsters right so elmo

has only only two percent of elmo's army

or his party is directly culpable

receiving orders from elmo right

directly culpable in the genocide of

cookie monsters okay that still means

elmo

as in his party as an institution is

responsible for the cookie monster

genocide even if only two percent of

people are perpetrating it because it

expresses the intention of the

institution okay it's that simple

if you establish an analogy between that

and a situation where not only do you

explicitly swear loyalty to i forget was

it elmo or whatever well elmo sure you

explicitly swear loyalty to elmo and

elmo has been spending the last like 10

years really fucking railing on this

particular about cookie monks right yeah

yeah that's not gonna be analogous to

the situation that you're doing but the

thing is hitler did not

make the mass extermination of jews

public

well he certainly said that they would

that it was a problem that would have to

be solved right i don't know no one

knows no one knew it that no nobody knew

that was going to be the story

man

it's not that everyone knew that that

was going to be extermination

let's use your example right he gets on

stage elmo and says we need to solve we

need to answer the uh what is it the

cookie monster question how many

different fucking things could he

possibly fucking mean um one of one of

the one of the plans was the deportation

of jewish people to madagascar which is

still bad

right okay sure but it's not

it doesn't matter if it's good or bad

it's not relevant to the point use logic

but it does but see it does why the

point well because

you just agreed that's like a reason

because deportation to madagascar is not

the same thing as extermination camps

that's why it doesn't matter well i

agree with you there just they're both

bad sure but they're not the same thing

just relax for a second the reason it's

this analogous is because you're trying

to make an analogy between that and like

ukraine and these battalions but there

is no similar situation in ukraine

there's nobody in the ukrainian

administration we are talking about okay

okay

you would have to disanalogy i'm not

saying there's a a holocaust going on in

ukraine right now what i'm trying to say

you're very you're getting very close to

implying it no offense oh my god you are

genuinely a stupid fuck you're just like

not smart you're just not intelligent

i'm sorry you would fail out of law

school you would never even pass the

lsat pogen what i'm trying to say a phd

physicist it doesn't matter you're dumb

fuck you would not you would never be

allowed in law school pogen what we're

talking about is not whether there's

directly a holocaust going on in ukraine

we're talking very abstractly about

whether the numbers of an organization

or an institution can define its

intentions if 7.5 percent are neo-nazis

what you have to prove is that their

neo-nazi character is merely incidental

and that the institution is deploying

them for ends that are not themselves

defined by the neo-nazi ideology no no

no no the point is you were trying to

establish an analogy between ukraine as

it exists today with all these

battalions and nazi uh no i i i gave up

on the nazi thing because i know you're

a dumb stupid fuck with shit in your

ears so i gave up on the nazi analogy

and i made up my own elmo cookie monster

thing okay so you agree

no it is analogous but you can't

understand the analogy so i tried to

simplify the analogy for you why is my

objection to the analogy wrong because

you are making it seem like i am

claiming the analogy is along the lines

of their actions being the same thing

rather than the question i didn't say

that yes you did you said well there's

no genocide or there's no holocaust

going on in ukraine right now the reason

i cited for this analogy you started

with this analogy because hitler was

knowingly he was known to be an

anti-semite and everyone in the armed

forces had to swear allegiance to it the

dis analogy is that when they became

vermont or whatever they did yeah can

you can you look on my stream because

i'm gonna just microsoft paint this for

you because you're a stupid fuck like

you need visual learning so let's just

do visual learning right i'm actually

i'm well probably open the open

okay so we're going to do this very

simply right i just want you to

understand

we're going to do this very simply so

here we have all right we have hitler

um hitler's open anti-semitism

right

hitler's open anti-semitism

all where

ma whatever all

army

all army swearing allegiance to him

okay this is how the analogy is

based on each layer okay all armies

swearing allegiance to him and then a

proportion

committing the crime

genocide right

okay so one two and three right let's

label them for you you understand i'm

not looking at this well you can look at

it there's no excuse for you i can't you

literally can i have an etch a sketch

okay someone take a screenshot of it

when i'm done and post it in the discord

so you can see

there's two you have such good fans

thank you so one two and three right

then we're to do this we're going to do

this one right i don't know ukrainian

government

ukrainian government

ideology irrelevant

just uh just so i know haas what's your

like what's your bedtime

roughly

no i'm explaining this to you irrelevant

that wasn't my question

it's 11 p.m on the east coast man

irrelevant

um

ukrainian armed forces

answering

to state let's just say ukrainian state

so we're less uh

ambiguous entering to state orders

to

a my mom's portion

being i'm just telling you now a

significant proportion being neo-nazi so

as you can see we have these labeled one

two and three right so one here is one

so

a significant proportion being neo-nazi

is analogous

to the proportion committing the

holocaust okay

and the reason it's analogous is not

because it's a new haircut the reason

the the the reason they're analogous

pause for a second i've got them

sorry go ahead continue please so do you

concede the debate

what no so have you lost are you unable

to comprehend what i'm trying to say

well they just posted it for me so let

me read just hitler's open anti-semitism

swearing

allegiance uh fucking proportion

committing the crime

ukrainian state ukrainian armed forces

answering to state orders significant

proportion being neo-nazi

wait a second why is the official

ideology of the ukrainian state are

relevant

um because you cannot extrapolate from

hitler's open anti-semitism

a necessary conclusion

at least at the time as far as the

soldiers in that army knew of the

extermination if if the analogy i didn't

say i didn't see it hypothetically

i merely said that he was like

explicitly anti-jew and had expressed

that he wanted let me explain something

to you now it used to be very common i'm

gonna explain something to you i'm gonna

explain to you

it's not going to sound relevant at

first but you're going to see why it is

okay in in old europe anti-semitism was

very common you understand though that

that shut the fuck up and let me finish

this yeah

i'm just okay

with the pig i'll music

okay

anti-semitism used to be very very

prominent in europe the reason

it stopped being as open or prominent as

it used to be is because of the

holocaust which means in no way was

hitler's open anti-semitism or ideology

enough to know he was going to commit

the holocaust it was a huge shock and

surprise to the entire world which

changed the nature of how anti-semitism

was received forever

okay that's what i'm trying to say am i

unmuted hello yeah you're unmuted now

sick so the point of me bringing that up

when you express the analogy initially

just to correct uh the record because

you strawmanned me is to point out that

there's a significant difference between

7.5 percent of a standing military um

engaging in neo-nazism explicitly and

therefore somehow magically esoterically

having an influence on the rest of the

standing military that's i i can

describe it just let me finish come on

you've been talking all night and such

that they're partial to the ideology of

neo-nazism right versus

uh a military that is very explicitly

subscribing to the ideology because the

guy they're fucking directly swearing

loyalty to has been saying for like

years that the jews are a problem that

they need to get rid of right that's the

reason to think it's this analogous

because if you'll recall your initial

claim at the outset of all of this was

something to the effect of well i think

the ukrainian military slash deep sorry

ukrainian government slash deep state uh

is is a nazi institution and the reason

i think that at least one reason

at least um well sure fine but one of

the many reasons that you suppose uh

supposedly have to believe that is that

these are there are these battalions

which

are neo-nazi and they're somehow

influencing all these other

just so you understand right

you you see why that would be just

analogous if

if conditional right if the claim

is that somehow we're supposed to

believe that at its core the fucking

ukrainian deep state government whatever

you call it is an explicitly neo-nazi

institution

you understand why that's a problem if

you're if you're doing like an induction

okay it doesn't follow no

can you can you actually like i hogan

i've listened to you very very carefully

because i want to rip you apart you

don't listen to anything i say so listen

very carefully pogen

there's two prongs listen very carefully

two prongs listen very carefully if you

want to even have a chance in this

debate two prongs the first one it is

not true that i claim that they

magically influence the ukrainian armed

forces as the 7.5 percent i've been

trying to explain how they do but you

keep cutting me off i would be more than

happy to give you more examples of how

this influence and how the mechanism of

this influence is concerned but the only

thing

shut the fuck up because i let you talk

pogen i let you fucking oink oink oink

like a pig for a long time so let me

talk now all i wanted to do is prove

that them being 7.5

alone does not discount the possibility

of that influence i was more than happy

to name you examples

of that influence okay

the second

the second point with respect to the

analogy there's two prongs to this the

second point is that that is making the

assumption that hitler's anti-semitic

ideology was known to be the

extermination camps of the holocaust

which it wasn't

did you know that what

i'm six foot three

i don't know so you don't say cedar

because you absolutely do wait so you're

conceding hold on so you're conceding i

didn't concede i just gave you my

rebuttal and that's how you respond

you're refuting a straw man how would

like what do you want me to respond what

is the strong how is it a straw man the

straw man is saying that i ever at any

point was talking about just uh genocide

explicitly when i merely said all that's

necessary for the analogy to break down

is that in one case they're not

explicitly subscribing to some ex

ideology and in the other case they are

that's simple but the analogy was not

along the access of the ideologies which

i even muted you to clarify hey easy

cowboy this isn't fucking modern-day

debate okay just chill out the point is

that's sufficiently dis-analogous to

make the point break down because you're

trying to let me know when you shut the

fuck up let me know when you shut the

fuck up oh i'm happy too yeah uh that

you're trying to say that's reason to

think that like um we can conclude that

the ukrainian deep state is somehow

explicitly neo-nazi but you haven't

actually presented some sort of

analogous reasoning

the analogy was not you just saw the

microsoft paint look at it again i am

not comparing the subscription to

neo-nazi ideology in ukraine to the

subscription of nazi ideology in the

german army are you going to tell me how

cpi was ever looked like i'm i'm so are

you hogan the more snide remarks you

make the more you're you're admitting

you lost this debate

for you to respond to the point i

actually do i have to mute you if i mute

you will you listen to what i say

i mean you're attacking a straw man

you didn't even hear what i said how

would you know if it's a straw man or

not how could i not hear you you've been

fucking screaming into the mic so pogen

i'm not comparing ideology

of nazism to the in germany to the

ideology of the neo-nazism in ukraine

i'm comparing the holocaust

just as an abstract analogy about how a

minority of the people in an institution

can do things or or um

have positions already in the german

case that's the point okay okay okay

but hypothetically if it was you already

conceded that it would define the

institution's intention

even if it wasn't a minority of the nazi

party or the or the institution of the

german state whatever you want to call

it if it was a minority in a

hypothetical scenario you yourself

conceded that it would make the nazi

party and define the nazi party as not

only culpable it would be defined by

that action yeah but the point is even

in the elmo cookie monster whatever the

fuck case you tried to present the same

exact analogy just with different

pronouns right it's the same exact setup

right

how many times have you interrupted me

in this if you want pokemon hold on i

can let you talk uninterrupted if you

can commit and promise to do the same to

me how about that

sure okay then don't interrupt me again

i won't interrupt you go ahead

yeah i think i've explained several

times what the dis analogy is um i'll go

over it again because i think the

audience is like uh kind of paying

attention just a teeny little bit um so

here we go you're trying to say that

there's this 30 component of the

ukrainian

uh national guard

7.5 of the overall standing military and

this is supposed to be representative of

the ukrainian deep state being

explicitly neo-nazi right and in order

to present this argument you did an uh

analogical reasoning with

uh nazi germany and you were appealing

to like um you know the vermont and the

military and whatever but the problem is

this right unless you have some other

piece of evidence you'd like to supply

in the ukrainian case nearly having

these 7.5 percent uh

of the of the overall military be

neo-nazi does not implicitly or

explicitly mean barring a further

argument that the rest of the ukrainian

military is neo-nazi sympathetic in the

case of germany not only

are they like obviously in an

environment where the entire regime and

government and everything has been

cultivated

such that they're subscribing to nazi

party ideology they actually explicitly

swear allegiance and loyalty to

uh adolf hitler a guy who for like five

to ten years has been railing against

the jews very publicly and very

violently and very explicitly which

means in the german case we do have

reason to think that the german standing

military would very very

very likely be sympathetic to the

ideology of hitler in the ukrainian case

we don't possess the same reasoning

hence the dis analogy please proceed go

ahead okay so i want you to actually

listen carefully because you just looped

again and i'm gonna explain to you why

you looped it's very simple okay

now first of all i am not saying that

just because 7.5 percent are there

without any further details or context

that this means the ukrainian armed

forces as a whole as neo-nazi the

context of that 7.5 is what's decisive

to the argument here and what they

actually do and what they are for in

regards to ukrainian armed forces okay

that's what i

made that very clear from the very start

second of all i never actually

discounted that the whole of the let's

say german army during world war ii was

anti-semitic or was sympathetic or

subscribed to hitler's ideology on

because they swore allegiance to him

what i

made very clear though was that

subscribing to hitler's ideology at that

time was not necessarily the same thing

as committing the act of the holocaust

and the extermination of jews and in the

camps okay now even if it was for as a

matter of historical fact just refer

back to my hypothetical in which this

wasn't the case and in which it was only

two percent and 98 percent had no idea

it is not true that see what your your

issue pogon is that you're trying to

make it seem like i'm saying

that the german military

vis-a-vis nazi ideology is the same as

the ukrainian military vis-a-vis

ukrainian neo-nazi ideology that's not

what i'm saying what i'm saying

is that

the

perpetration of the holocaust

relative to the institution of the nazi

party assuming only nine percent were

culpable or directly perpetrating it i

should say

is relevant vis-a-vis the 7.5 percent

and the reason i'm saying that is not to

draw the conclusion that it's

necessarily true that just because

they're 7.5 percent that means the

institution is going to be defined in a

certain way the point is it is more than

easily possible for 7.5 of an

institution to define the nature of that

institution

not even just the ideology but even when

it comes to moral culpability in actions

your inability to hear this argument

probably reflects the fact and you have

to focus really hard here pogen you are

genuinely a stupid person you are not a

smart person

simple as that

are you done yeah

yeah so it's i i never you straw man to

me again in that rebuttal i never said

it was like the holocaust in terms of

extermination right i merely said that

all that would be necessary for some

member of the german military uh to come

to the conclusions that i'm referring to

what

are they conclusion i thought we weren't

interrupting each other

is to just come to the it's just like

pay attention to any one of his public

speeches that even remotely mention the

jews for over the course of like five

years right they agreed with his

ideology and the party line at least on

some level you could infer that merely

by agreeing to be a part of the party

because as you and i agreed they swear

loyalty to hitler who was the chancellor

right and he's not very quiet about what

he believes

with respect to the jews

and the problem there is is exactly what

i've been pointing out as the dis

analogy this whole time the ukrainian

armed forces you can't make the same

inference that they agree with the

ideology and the party line merely

because of the evidence that you

presented which was just the 7.5 percent

or 30 percent right you have to supply a

further argument to think that that

ukrainian deep state is a nazi into

institution if you're using the

existence of these battalions as

evidence for that you haven't given an

argument um that's the dis analogy you

straw man me again with the holocaust

extermination thing i never fucking said

that logan hogan pogen you're four foot

seven i'm six three pogon

that's okay it's okay you conceded pogan

i'm gonna repeat this

yes you did you did you did concede to

me because i made it very clear that no

one denied

that the german military was

anti-semitic or agreed with hitler

ideologically it is not under contention

what is under contention

is the question of their culpability

in the holocaust in this hypothetical

and it's a hypothetical pogon stop

talking about the direct thing because

the directing doesn't matter just

imagine

look okay don't mention the

germany again because you're confused

about it talk about my elmo and cookie

monster analogy it is not relevant what

their ideology was in this case because

the object of relevance here

is about the holocaust not the ideology

we we all agree that they were all

anti-semitic and they agreed with

hitler's um views about jews and all

that kind of stuff that does that is not

a one-to-one uh that doesn't allow us to

draw the conclusion that they directly

perpetrated

the holocaust and that is it's simple as

that do you agree that saying that i

think like standing members of the

german military subscribing to the

holocaust in terms of extermination

like like you agree i never said that

right

if you're not saying that

then you're not saying anything relevant

to that if you concede to me that

then why are you bringing up that they

you agree with me

to get you to clarify because that was

the crux of that was my analogy my

analogy was with regard to their

proximity to the perpetration of the

holocaust not their ideology no no the

conversation went hey

i don't think there's reason to think

the ukrainian deep state is nazi based

on uh like nazi sympathetic or a nazi

institution based on this evidence right

and then we cited the numbers the 30

national guard the 7.5

and then at that point you threw out the

analogy with germany you're like oh okay

pogan so you think oh you don't think

like uh the german military was like

nazi sympathetic just because nine

percent actually participated in the

holocaust i didn't say nazis i did not

say nancy sympathetic what i said was

no i didn't no no i don't because i did

not say whether they were sympathetic to

nazi views i said whether they were

directly culpable whether more

specifically the nazi party is defined

by the holocaust

yeah and i never said that just so it's

about institutions and people wait wait

that's the straw man i never said merely

by being in the german military that i

think like every single fucking person

was signing up to participate i'm glad

you don't think that i'm glad you don't

think that but you've just conceded hold

on because you said i did that's the

straw man that i've been playing no no

it's not that's not what i said you did

i think you're like no

what you were saying was that they

weren't signing up for the holocaust but

that they were signing up for hitler's

ideology which is true but that's not

relevant to my analogy i just don't

understand why you're so upset when i'm

the one trying to tell you what i

actually said and you seem so like

befuddled because what you said

does not address my analogy

yes it does directly no it doesn't

because

you just contradicted yourself nowhere

in my analogy am i equating perpetrating

the holocaust with subscribing to the

nazi ideology at the time still confused

the dis analogy is the difference

between

making some sort of inference about 7.5

30 whatever having a neo-nazi ideology

and the ukrainian deep state being an

explicitly nazi institution versus

people participating in an institution

that is not only open about its

political ideology yeah but but in order

i'm almost done remember we're not

that's not one just don't finish that

because i know what you i know what

you're going to say pogan it's not

relevant to the analogy

why can't you follow your own rules go

ahead waste waste waste our time forward

you're a very forgiving person i thank

you for that the point is by joining the

german military by being in the vermont

the ss whatever uh by being like a

card-carrying member of the nazi party

what have you there are two relevant

differences there that are not going to

work in the analogy the first is that

you know damn well

right what hitler thinks about the jews

the second is you are explicitly

swearing loyalty and allegiance to that

very fucking guy yeah neither of those

things right exist in the case of

ukraine yet you're trying to say that

this is some sort of analogical

reasoning that you can use to conclude

that the ukrainian government slash deep

state even explicitly neo-nazi

institution it just doesn't work that

way my friend

okay i'm gonna be very quiet and careful

with you

that is not my analogy pogen my analogy

is not about nazi ideology it's not the

ideology thing is not relevant to

anything i've said i said if nine

percent of the nazi party committed the

holocaust only

that's still going to define the nazi

party as an institution

as a holocaust committing institution

okay if 7.5 percent of the ukrainian

armed forces are neo-nazis that has the

possibility and why i'm not saying

by default because again you may make

the argument that the neo-nazism is

incidental to the overall aims of the

institution but it has the possibility

definitely of defining the institution

of the ukrainian deep state

as nazified that is literally my that is

what i said from the very start you

talking about the ideology of the nazi

party and the ideology of the wehrmacht

is not relevant it's spoken before you s

loop in like an npc say the same thing

you've said the same things dozens and

dozens of times what you said is not

relevant to my analogy and my analogy

has nothing to do with the ideological

loyalties

of the nazi party or the wermacht it has

to do with their actions relative and in

in regards to the holocaust

are you done yeah

when you throw out evidence like there's

x percent

neo-nazi battalions whatever

right

when the original claim is something

like ukraine's government deep state is

explicitly neo-nazi

what you're saying you're performing an

induction right i'll walk you through

this you're saying that that raises the

probability of your initial claim being

true right you're supplying it as

evidence and yes

i thought we weren't interrupt

why because you're wasting your friends

here only with added context wait just

just please i i beg of you sultan has

the cruel please allow me to finish my

claim

thank you now you're merely saying

though that it's possible when you

appeal to the uh when you appeal to the

battalions that um the ukrainian deep

state is like neo-nazi right so you're

actually walking back the initial claim

because you're no longer performing an

induction at all you're merely saying

you're invoking some sort of weird

possibility okay just for clarity just

for clarity are you saying it is

evidence for ukraine being deep state

neo-nazi or it's not evidence with added

context it is evidence in a vacuum it is

not evidence but we're not operating so

the thing we've been just to clarify the

thing we've been talking about for like

an hour

is not evidence unless you supply other

evidence no i don't need to necessarily

just supply other evidence i need to

address the context of that evidence if

you are not comfortable supplying this

as evidence on its own like in a vacuum

as you said why not merely invoke the

other evidence instead of arguing with

me because it's not about other evidence

it's about knowing about the what the

actual context of the evidence so pogen

you claim you have a phd in physics so

you're used to working in vacuums that's

fine i was joking okay well sure but

that's not how real life works real life

is not like physics where it's all just

vacuums real life is actually

not everything

i was joking real life isn't evidence in

a vacuum all evidence in real life is

oversaturated with context and that

context is crucial to the very structure

of that evidence okay

so

in the case of

well okay on its own 30

being neo-nazi isn't enough but when you

add the actual context of that 30

or that 7.5

it does actually add

uh to my argument it does add something

like i said but it adds to the overall

picture hold on it adds to the overall

picture that i'm painting

which we haven't even had you haven't

even let me discuss more details about

that because you've been focusing on the

seven point five percent well it's

because i was correcting straw man's and

planning oh you weren't because you were

saying the 7.5 percent is not strong

evidence well how do you know it's not

when you supplied when you supplied an

analogical argument i broke down that

argument you didn't hold on pogo you

told me that

you broke down nothing you broke down

nothing because i proved to you

either you never comprehended the

analogy or you were just wrong about it

sorry you broke down nothing pogan i was

having a moment because my favorite

streamer was yelling at me the point is

if you spent so much time trying to

supply an analogical argument for this

piece of evidence only to then come to

me and say

actually in order for it to be effective

evidence it requires further evidence

which is what you really mean by which

is no not no it's not what i mean by

context exactly come on don't fuck with

me

no other other evidence is is like

factually verified discrete datum

context relates to the actual structure

of evidence now you don't know the

distinction of those things because

you're either not a knowledgeable person

or you're too much of a fucking idiot to

put together what that could possibly be

dunbar's number is a defeater for

communism then by the same token i don't

know what that is

really you don't think like the presence

of russian sympathetic or soviet

sympathetic people in donbass

or whatever

can work in the same exact way that

you're appealing to with respect to

these ukrainian neo-nazis the presence

of ideologies that

justify some sort of sorry

am i denying that the people in donbass

are overwhelmingly sympathetic to soviet

ideology and communism because i'm not i

didn't ask if you were denying it i'm

saying do you think the same sort of

reasoning could be applied

uh

yeah why not

oh okay

so then it's just wait what form of

reasoning

well presumably ukraine doesn't want

them to like secede or be i think that

in the same way that ukraine is neo-nazi

as i'm the ukrainian state is neo-nazi

by the same thing that hasn't been

defended okay but by the same standard

you could also say that the donbass is

sympathetic to soviet ideology i would

never no no no that's that's you can't

say that like the statement one

the unique uh ukrainian deep state

is

neo-nazi whether it's

is irrelevant hold hold hold the train

statement two donbass

is possibly or sorry donbass is like

russia soviet sympathetic rather than

being explicitly soviet okay then let me

rephrase it that's actually

okay in the same okay i think i think we

should rename the stream infra dis

analogy that's more fitting i gotta be

honest

sultan

i can't think of unfair you are

such a fucking idiot it's baffling let

me rephrase it then in the same way that

the ukrainian state is nazi sympathetic

the donbass is soviet ideology

sympathetic or let me rephrase he

predicted the examination hold on hold

on shut the fuck up let me even predict

it even further right in the same way

that the ukrainian deep state is

nazified that the donbass republics are

sovietized i have no problem saying that

so what you deemed as like an essential

which you deemed as an essential

component of my analogy which was the

key word sympathetic proved itself to be

entirely inessential pogen you would

fail the lsat you'd never be allowed in

law school you are genuinely a almost

naturally stupid person i mean you still

have provided an analogical argument

that doesn't bear out or why not

probability well we've explained that

for the last hour wait but hold on pogan

you asked the two factors that i

presented in the case of germany right

are absolutely not relevant crucial no

the ideology thing was not

wait wait don't say that because that's

sorry burp that's dishonest they're

absolutely crucial and relevant because

you're talking about whether or not we

can come to some sort of justified

conclusion about the ideologies held by

each respective regime no i'm not the

people i am not talking about and by

extension the people that serve i am

talking about the nazi party's

culpability in the holocaust not its

ideology no what you said was if you

think that 7.5 percent

of the ukrainian armed forces being

explicitly a new nazi is not reason to

conclude that the ukrainian deep state

is a nazi institution right what do you

think about and that's when you threw

the nazi german no hogan the thing is

that's not what i said exactly

hogan's

sure the the record supports me though

the only thing that saves you on twitch

is i'm not allowed to say slurs so that

understand that

yeah

i'm talking about you know like the r

word

that's okay i can't call you the r word

that's okay listen pogan wow let me tell

pogan let me tell you something i don't

think you're my favorite streamer

anymore i don't care logan let me tell

you something okay what i said initially

is that just because they're seven point

five percent doesn't mean it can't be

strong evidence it depends on the work

in the morning it depends on the

structure of that evidence it depends on

the structure of that evidence just

because it's 7.5 percent doesn't mean

it's not strong evidence because the 9

in the nazi party in a hypoth or elmo's

army let's say that was decisive an

exterminating cookie monster or whatever

or i don't know

what's in other characters uh big birds

or whatever right that

in no way actually watch sesame street

it seems like you're just a larper that

in in in no way does that discount the

strength of that evidence it depends on

what that 7.5 percent is doing you can't

say it's not strong evidence unless you

know the context in which that evidence

is being presented the reason it's

we'll go over it again i understand

people work on things

yeah talk again about the nazi ideology

please go ahead

well the reason to think it's

disanalogous analogous jesus i'm tired

the reason to think of this analogous

once again is because there's two

crucial factors that are being added in

the case of germany that are not present

in the case of ukraine such that they

would dramatically influence the

probability of the conclusion then then

forget about germany and use my sesame

street exactly so you agree it's just

analogous thank you

no it it's not this analogous because

yes the essential token

it may as well be a hypothetical because

the essential component of my analogy

has nothing to do with the history

i appreciate the token the logan hogan

it's not this analogous because the

essential components of the analogy can

be distilled into an abstract

if you're arguing for a negative right

you can't prove the nazi like the

ukrainian government isn't nazi

sympathetic so gotcha pogan right no i'm

not i would really

i would more than be happy to move on to

illustrate more evidence in the

direction of the government being

notified

come on look

no i'm not hogan i i'm opening listen

pogen you're saying 7.5 is not strong

evidence i'm saying it is strong

evidence when you actually one of the

reasons i don't think it's strong

evidence can you repeat them to me

because you're trying to put the numbers

in a vacuum nope wrong

why isn't it strong evidence cracking

anything so why isn't it why isn't it

strong evidence because the two crucial

factors that would dramatically raise

the probability of the conclusion being

true you cannot substantiate in the case

of ukraine

what are the two necessary factors we've

gone over that about nine times wait so

you're now you're trying to make like a

a necessary analogy in which it would

have to be the same it's a necessary

analogy when we're talking about

probability because what you're trying

to say now is you're trying to say

unless uh the german armed forces bear

the same relationship to the ukrainian

deep state officially which is obviously

impossible because the deep state is not

official to the german armed forces in

regards to the nazi party or hitler

himself

this isn't correct either so those two

factors are what swearing allegiance uh

to the ideology

and what else you no no listen there are

factors that you presented in an

analogical argument to substantiate what

are the factors i presented

exactly over that they're the two i'm

referencing the only factors i presented

that were essentialized in my analogy

were this

a minority of the nazi party whether

it's true or not what do you mean by

essentialized

like it's literally this simple a

minority of an institution can easily

define the character of that institution

huh

that has nothing to do with the analogy

though wow analogy was that well because

you were trying to say because okay if a

minority of nazis i guess

if a minority of nazis commit the

holocaust that is more than easily

enough

for that minority to define the

institution of the nazi party oh no no

that has nothing to do with it but

that's what i said but that's what i

said initially you're getting scared and

you're like

that's what i said initially bogan who's

scared of what that's what i said

initially

[Music]

it's okay listen the point is you

presented an analogical argument right

an analogical argument is designed to

increase the probability of a conclusion

being true

why because there's analogical

properties such that if you think

something's true in one case you would

have to say it's true in the other case

or at least be compelled to say it's

true except what did i say exactly we're

getting there trust me and provide

evidence of what i said please put it in

fact checking no no get a clip of

exactly what i said and put it in fact

get the clip so we can look at the

evidence of what i said

you said in the case of ukraine there's

the 7.5 whatever battalions that are

neo-nazi therefore it increases the

probability of the ukrainian deep space

space wow the ukrainian deep state being

neo-nazi and you analogized this to the

germany example where there's people

joining the german military and even

though it's a minority of people

involved in like the holocaust or what

have you right um you can still conclude

that you know the government is

sympathetic to that agenda or the party

ideology i'm denying that

i'm denying that that i said that

well i mean that's just i don't know

what to say to that because you admitted

you admitted something pogan what

actually happened was first i pointed

out the over-representation of neo-nazi

battalions in the ukrainian national

guard okay then you said well that's

only seven point five percent of the

total so that that's not strong evidence

and i said well incorrect incorrect no

that's not all i said that's that's what

else did you say

when i said that it was merely seven

point five percent and i added the

strong uh it's not strong evidence

statement i gave a reason to think it's

not strong evidence right what was your

reasoning it's not merely the number

it's the number coupled with the fact

that and this is where we've gotten into

trouble you know my analogy didn't start

don't mention the analogy don't don't

get emotional just listen right try to

listen for once

guys this one let me let me guys this is

what happens when i don't yell

this is what happens when i don't yell

over these fucking soyboy pieces of shit

cucks is that they constantly fucking uh

gesture around and they do this fucking

bullshit brogan finish what you were

gonna say oh chad okay sure thank you

anyway point is i didn't merely say it

was the number that made it weak

evidence i said it was the number

coupled with the fact that you're trying

to make a claim like that an induction

without the connective tissue such that

the never has any bearing on the

probability of the deep state uh

ukrainian deep state being neo-nazi and

then remember let's let's

keep track here remember you then

presented the analogical argument with

germany and i said well haas that's dis

analogous x y z reasons and then you

lost you like lost that would be nice if

it was true but it's not because what

actually happened was that you just

looked back and we can look back when

you asked me for connective tissue i

didn't respond with the analogy i

responded by actually giving you

connective tissue about the overwatch

i talked about maripole in 2015 i gave

you plenty of connective tissue at the

time which you just completely ignored

and then i said pogan there's nothing

it's more than possible for 7.5 percent

to be able to rep define an institution

just look at the case

it's more than it's hold on hold on hold

on

no it's about possibility because it's

more than possible so it's possible okay

well congratulations yeah it's more than

possible it's possible a victoria's

secret model is going to walk in the

door right now and blow me is it more

probable

be based on some evidence that you're

supplying or is it just possible okay

let's uh the you're claiming it's

improbable right or whatever you said

that that's seven point five percent

that's that's you said the seven point

hold on pogan hogan what you said is the

7.5 is not strong evidence where's james

when you need him go ahead

you said the 7.5

is not strong evidence

that's correct yes yeah but i didn't

make it but then you asked me for

connective tissue i gave you connective

tissue and i coupled that connective

tissue by saying there's nothing about

it being seven point five percent

that is that indicates that this is not

r uh as uh proportional connective

tissue that you offered was an analogous

no it wasn't the connective tissue that

i offered was the azov taking monopoly

in 2015. don't get emotional

you are a fucking liar the connective

tissue i offered was the

overrepresentation of these neo-nazi

forces in ukrainian armed forces help

don't get emotional please all right are

you okay pogan twitch tls is the only

thing that saves you it's the only thing

that saves you hogan are you are you

implying a death threat you're a pig

you're a pig you're a fucking please

[Music]

you sound like a fucking laughing hyena

little bitch bogan you've always been a

little bitch bogan ever heard of that

how you fucking fat pig

i gave you connective tissue you ignored

it i supplemented the connective tissue

so giving you an example of how a

minority can drastically define an

organization just because it's 7.5

percent doesn't mean it can't be strong

evidence you just need to contextualize

the evidence that's what i fucking said

you haven't addressed a single one point

of my fucking argument not once have we

made any fucking progress because it's

just stupid to fucking understand what

i'm even saying

pause

chat

infrared it's been a fantastic evening

manhood conceded get the fuck out

[Music]

go ahead and run away little bitch

i'm still in the vc though okay so are

you not leaving then

i have uh work at 8 30. i don't give a

fuck

okay

yeah i'll get fired for you haas you're

my favorite streamer

you fucking pussy can i make a statement

or not are you gonna let me no you can't

make a closing statement you either

debate me or you don't be honest debate

me or run away you little bitch

i am debating you no you're not you're

running away my position you're running

away i was going to summarize my

position

you have no position you're not okay

with that what's my position oh awesome

okay what's my position ahaz tell me go

ahead

your position is that you're unable to

understand

any of the arguments i've actually

forwarded throughout this entire debate

that's you think that's my position

that's what you have that is objectively

your position you should people outside

of your chat take you to be a serious

person i actually don't give a fuck

i i can tell yeah most people have like

at least some degree of like dignity if

you measure this like mathematically i

want like any formal standard of victory

in terms of measuring our debates with

regard to logic

[Applause]

all right uh take it easy ak four foot

seven have a good evening fat fuck okay

you fat ugly fucking pig fuck

you fucking fat putt fucking pig oink

oink more pogon

fat fuck

ugly fat pig fuck

imagine fucking getting destroyed that

badly

don't try to fucking out lawyer me don't

try to get in the weeds of arguments

i'm sorry guys i took the lsat cold

and got in a pretty good law school

and in this fucking law school i didn't

study once

i'm built for this shit don't fucking

come and get into the weeds of a fucking

argument with me

you dumb fuck especially if you don't

have a lawyer brain yeah all he could do

is his fucking mcu reddit quips

that's all he could fucking do such a

pussy

such a fucking pussy

by the way guys all that fucking

bullshit they do all that fuck all the

entirety of that fucking bullshit

it's because of shit like this i dissect

and tear apart viciously my opponents

viciously

all they can do is cope and lie all they

fucking have is they're lying and coping

that's it

that's all they can fucking do cope and

lie