Haz vs Destiny | 9th Match | InfraredShow Debate

wonderful loud and clear yeah yeah

happy to have you both here today i

would like thank you both for uh

deciding to join today's programming for

the hippie dippy championship whoever

wins today will be the hippy dippy

championship that award of course comes

with a over 300

uh professional belt uh that we have

designed personally for the person to be

awarded as well as many guaranteed

future appearances on the programming

and uh championship defenses i would

like to thank you both for coming

together today i would like you both to

introduce yourselves quickly uh destiny

would you like to introduce yourselves

i am destiny the reigning hippie dippy

belt champion i slaughtered my last

opponent with alacrity so hard that i

believe that they and their crew left

crying

and i'm here to do the same once more to

defend the belt against these horrible

tanky scourge while defending my boys

the democratic party in the united

states of america that's what i'm here

to do today

okay and now we're going to throw it

over to

infrared would you like to introduce

yourself

amaz from infrared

i am here i don't know what a hippie

dippy is i don't know what a belt is i

don't know anything about that i am here

to prove

marxism leninism in the age of

multi-polarity in the post-covert world

i am here to debunk the lies about the

so-called uh democratic party there's

nothing democratic about it i'm here to

uh debunk the idea that the

establishment is the only bet and the

only choice we have i'm here to defend

the idea of a big tenth third party

and let me tell you something i don't

intend on losing

happy to have you both here and i would

like to thank the production staff for

the amazing titan trons and billy the

fridge the internet legend for the

amazing intros for both of them now

uh i am going to state the rules quickly

so

uh you will both have a short intro

period where you can give your basic

thoughts on the topic in an outro period

which will be uninterrupted then you'll

have an open period where you too can go

back and forth i will not be giving my

opinions on this debate if i speak up i

am only moderating and that is the only

time when you're going to really need to

quiet down now the purpose of this of

course is for you to debate the topic

should uh americans vote for the

democratic party

uh and if there's any more questions

about rules or regulations the only last

thing i could say is that afterwards of

course a three judge panel will decide

who gets the championship felt mailed to

them after this debate so

is everybody ready

as ready as we'll ever be

wonderful so since infrared is the

challenger for the belt i will give him

uh first word on should people vote for

the democratic party

all right so to begin

hold on wait someone's at the door you

need sick

hi

how's it going

we're going great hello

how are you guys doing you're doing good

great

what's the question

should people vote for democrats

definitely not definitely not

okay that's the intro destiny now you

can start oh that was the intro i'll do

my intro i'll do my intro

we should not vote for democrats because

at the end of the day

democrats are only another arm of the uh

corporate oligarchy they are further

they're furthering the imperialist wars

they are crippling more americans into

debt

mike is like really like

[ __ ] up is it too loud

yeah it's like the game is like immense

all right can you hear me now

yes

the democratic party is uh furthering

the crippling of the american public

they're further indebting them they're

driving them into more driving us into

more imperialist wars

they are uh

causing us to not have health care not

have free public tuition

they're preventing all of the basic

necessities we need to have

to have a prosperous society yet they're

all running under the guise of

supporting these things and they're you

know sheepdogging more people into the

democratic party in an effort to co-opt

the movement and at the end of the day

they only further isolate people from

actually achieving any of these goals

so uh you know

i think uh if you look at the actual

policies that have been failed to have

been passed but have been supported by

different candidates you can see that

you know they've lied time and time

again about the things that they say

they support

and even then you know some of the

things that they do say they support

from the get-go such as

wars with taiwan or wars with china over

taiwan we're supporting public options

that will only further decimate the

health care industry and the health care

plan in this country to guarantee

universal health care to all people

it's only going to hurt more americans

and that that's what they do

okay destiny your intro statement

voting for third party is a waste of

time none of them have a shot at making

it anywhere the only thing that's good

for third parties is getting twitter

clout or

having fun debates i guess on twitch or

youtube if you truly want to support

things like a more robust economy that

supports workers at the bottom uh

healthcare that works for everybody and

not just people who can afford the best

private insurance um relatively less

hawkish foreign policy people that

support things around medical science so

for instance stuff related to vaccines

or the coronavirus if you want to

support people's right to vote if you

want to support the ability for unions

to exist and if you want to support a

party that believes in climate change i

think that it's probably more important

to support the democratic party than to

throw away your vote on some mimi third

party that doesn't have a snowball's

chance in hell of holding any effective

office i think that if third parties

really wanted to build real power in

this country they would spend more time

actually winning local elections to

build real support for their movement

instead of just doing this like hail

mary for the presidency every year where

they can raise some money have

absolutely no effective change and then

write a bunch of books later on about

the failures of their parties and all

the excuses they make for it

uh and yeah that's what we're here to

talk about today i guess okay it is now

open dialogue you two are free to go

back and forth you maybe again so i

think destiny begins from the

presupposition that well the democrats

are the only ones who support this this

and that and that no one else actually

has a chance i'm curious to know why

destiny thinks he knows a third party is

actually not possible given the history

of the united states the republicans and

democrats haven't always existed and

there's actually a precedent in

monumental historical shifts political

shifts within the united states

yeah yeah and historical shifts within

the united states third parties and

alternative parties to the status quo do

happen in the history of the united

states um shifts in the even the

political alignment of parties happen in

these kinds of

you know

decisive historical moments and

i think you would really have to be a

complete you know either a liar or

someone who's burying their head under

the sand to deny the fact that right now

in the in this country we are facing a

decisive historical transformation a

political realignment

and um

one such moment that precisely makes an

alternative third party possible now you

can you know deny and dismiss that all

you want but to go out of your way to

say that a third party actually isn't

possible and that the only choice we

have is between

the republicans and the democrats i

think that's an unfounded

assumption

so typically if political parties are

going to build their power it's not

going to be a hail mary

winning of the presidential election um

and then all of a sudden this third

political party is more popular if there

was a third party that was legitimately

gaining steam then i mean maybe there

might be talk of supporting them in the

future but i was here when people

thought libertarians could win against

obama when people supported ron paul you

know what back with bush and the green

party people were talking uh there was

ross perot i mean against trump you've

seen like third party liberty gary

johnson like there have been all these

third-party candidates that have kind of

sprung up and they can get like what

like one percent of the vote or two

percent of the vote but like ultimately

they're ineffective um you can see the

writing on the wall you're never going

to have like a a mysterious like

explosive oh my god out of nowhere this

third party candidate wins i think that

if third parties want to build real

power they should probably focus doing

it on the city or at least state level

before they just try to make these big

runs for the presidency when most people

in the united states consider those

third parties to be a joke

okay well there's two things actually um

the first argument i'd like to point out

is that historically speaking the

emergence of the republican party was

precise you know the republican party

didn't emerge

uh because you know they were slowly

winning at the local level and then

eventually no it created because there

was a um discernible

political distinction and difference

that was within the prevailing party and

it was precisely you know by winning the

the presidency that the republican party

was boosted into

relevance and significance historically

so historically speaking that's just not

true third parties or whatever you want

to call them alternative parties have

won historically

um on the basis of these kinds of

so-called hail marys but even if we

discount that fact i personally don't

think people should necessarily rely on

us so-called hail mary i think that a

party

does require work at local levels it

does require dedication and energy and

building foundations and infrastructure

and it requires the maturity to be able

to have a big tent third party this is

the most important part that's going to

be able to overcome you know the kind of

petty political sectarianism that you

see so common among the left and just be

able to focus on getting this third

party to win but on the other hand

if the question is about and we're

addressing this to the audience should

you vote democrat

my view is a decisive no and the reason

why um is because

you should be focusing your effort on

building a third party and even if that

means taking your energy and attention

away from these you know

um

congressional and uh

presidential elections you know if a

third party is going to start winning

locally that also implies a broader

information in propaganda war that

allows you to draw a line of distinction

you can't on the one hand campaign at a

local level and say oh let's vote for

this third party but on the other hand

shill for the democrats when it comes to

the national level in terms of

propaganda and optics so just to be able

to distinguish yourself enough

sufficiently even if you're just going

to focus on local levels you do have to

make a stance when it comes to these

very broad unifying political

moments

where you know american politics is

really defined at the level of the

presidential elections whether we want

to whether we like that or not just at

the level of optics information and

propaganda so if you're going to

distinguish yourself as a third party

you cannot

say oh let's vote for biden or oh let's

you know swallow our pride and vote for

the democrats you have to take a stance

even just as a matter of optics in those

such moments

so to whomever it may concern right and

i don't think this is going to be like

the majority of the american people

right now but those who are interested

in politics young people who do want to

see changes in this country you should

focus and this is for true for

influencers such as yourself who go on

stream and claim that you know you're

interested in uh seeing all these

changes happen in this country it

doesn't matter where you fall on the

political spectrum it doesn't matter

what your specific ideology is or what

your specific views are you should be

getting on board with a big tent

focusing on trying to build a big tent a

third party and i find it especially

ironic that destiny says it's not

possible when if streamers like him

influencers like him got the ball rome

rolling

um him vows hassan and all these

streamers i mean that would that enough

would like blow out of the water all of

the other precedent attempts within the

past you know few decades to build third

parties you already have the media

infrastructure to build a political

alternative in this country like if you

are yourself a form of alternative media

destiny whether you like it or not

you're not a form of mainstream media so

it's i just find it so ironic do i get a

chance to respond to things yeah go

ahead well yeah

go ahead okay i'm trying to just talk

over um so i i mean like

if we want to talk about like political

parties from 200 years ago we can um i

mean if you've got a political party

that's ready to absolutely collapse in

the united states that doesn't enjoy

like a massive amount of popularity

which the democratic and the republican

party do i mean we can do that but i

mean it took the wig party collapsing

right in like the [ __ ] 1800s in order

for the republican party to like grow

from the ashes of that um to try to say

that like the situation is the same

today i know that a lot of people talk

like oh my god like the parties are

collapsing they're not they both enjoy

like a pretty tremendous amount of

support right now i just don't see

either of them collapsing right now now

maybe that'll change in a few years

maybe the party of trump you know maybe

will come out support trump as a third

party candidate who knows i mean that's

anything is possible i guess it could be

um the progressive or left-wing movement

in the democratic party definitely isn't

healthy or large enough to support

somebody but maybe in the republican

party maybe we'll see somebody uh grow

out as a result of that but again like

these political realignments happened

like over 150 years ago right the

democratic republican party are like 200

years old i think that any time you're

trying to say this is possible and you

have to reach back like two

as a millennia 100 years two like 200

years to try to point to where this has

happened before i think your argument is

already starting off on an incredibly

rocky foot um you know like politics

change the the power of the federal

government changes the way that we

consume media changes the way that these

parties exist uh two centuries um the

way these parties exist has changed like

um

just so much that i'm not willing to go

back 200 years ago and say well it

worked then so it should work now um in

terms of like if you vote on third party

does that mean that um like you should

vote third party even if that means

losing elections in the meantime i don't

i don't like that idea because i think

it is a very privileged position to have

there are a lot of people that are

hurting right now in the united states

that probably don't want to gamble the

next 5 10 20 30 years of their life on

whatever gambit you have for your

fantasy third party that's going to come

up and rise up and destroy the united

states uh or not distributed but destroy

the u.s like political parties that

exist right now i think that's a pretty

selfish thing to demand of people that

are hurting right now and need help

right now

so um and then also in terms of like you

can't vote third party locally and then

presidentially vote different you

absolutely can do that local politics

are an incredibly diverse landscape of

different types of candidates that

believe in all sorts of different things

there's even more variety among

republicans and democrats at the local

level or you can support third parties

um and you might even have a better shot

doing so there are plenty of local

scenes that support for instance open

primaries where anybody can make it to

like these top two or three positions

and then you have your um citywide or

statewide vote like these things exist

there might even be more ripe areas

where third-party candidates can

flourish because the amount of money

that you need to raise is way less and

campaigning on key issues to those

geographic areas is more successful than

trying to make this huge run at the uh

presidential scene um and then even the

idea that like you can't vote

differently one way and then vote

another way for president it doesn't

make sense because we saw like on down

ballot tickets so there were for

instance a lot of republicans that would

support trump but then wouldn't support

down ballot republicans or there were a

lot of democrats that would support

biden but wouldn't support down ballot

um

democratic you know senators or

congressmen so i think you absolutely

can support third-party candidates on

local levels while also supporting you

know a mainstream president or a

mainstay like one of the political party

presidents so you can increase the the

outcomes or whatever group of people

you're advocating for on the

presidential level for the final thing

the idea that like you can you have to

take some stance as a matter of optics

once more i think it's a privileged

position to be able to wear a political

flag optically or rhetorically rather

than out of necessity like a lot of poor

people are right now for instance that

are helped by the child tax credit that

exists under biden that probably

wouldn't have come under the republicans

um or you know for diabetics that have

health insurance that wouldn't have but

they do thanks to the aca um or you know

for people who can feel a little bit

more secure about their future because

they were daca recipients that aren't

constantly being attacked by trump

anymore these are people that don't have

the luxury of wearing a political outfit

as like a rhetorical or optical device

but rather they rely on these political

parties to secure a safe existence in

the united states okay so i discerned

five points and i'm just going to

respond to each of them and i'll count

them off

my hand right so the first one um was

about

the unless you think the democratic

party is today about to collapse i'm

actually curious as to your view

on what a situation would look like

what would it look like for a party to

collapse because the way i see it

for example we're looking at an

infrastructure bill that's not

embarrassingly can't even be passed not

because of the republicans but because

of a faction of the democrats right i

mean

that's just one example too the

political realignment is so profound

today

within the two constituent parties i

don't see how you could say oh yeah the

democratic party enjoys widespread

popularity well which democratic party

because if you look at the factions

within the democratic party it is not a

unified party so i'm curious as to which

party you're referring to because unless

you can prove that there's like a you

know uh

like unifying support for the democrats

in general like regardless of the

differences within them which is a

completely based like kristen cinema and

joe manchin's base is not voting for the

democrats for the same reason that

democrats elsewhere are voting for the

you know there are really specific class

demographic

differences and the reasons why people

vote democrat so i'm curious what would

it look like for a party to uh to

collapse

the second thing you said

was that there hasn't been a political

realignment

uh like the one that happened around the

civil war in 200 years first of all

that's just not true right the democrats

and republicans only share continuity

with those parties historically in all

but name today right we all know that

um the parties have fundamentally

changed and

if you look at the origins of the modern

democratic party it's actually really

interesting it was because of uh

initiatives like the populist party and

the farmers alliance in the late 19th

century and early 20th century that led

to this kind of unity between you know

the the that led to the synthesis that

is the new deal democrats which

eventually would be

um you know

champion the causes of minorities and

stuff so there's you can actually locate

two

realignments within the 20th century the

first one was the rise of the democrats

as like the party of the new deal the

second one was around the time of jfk

and beyond where the democrats

increasingly coveted the votes of

minorities

and

demographics like that instead of the

traditional working-class white bass

the third thing you said and

if i've forgotten some of your points

you're going to have to correct me or

point out like i didn't oh you didn't

respond to this the third thing i think

you mentioned was that

oh well uh you have this dream about a

third party

but

that's coming from a position of

privilege because what about harm

reduction and the thing i find so

interesting about arguments about harm

reduction is this um

this pre this assumption about the scale

of time now if you're talking about

voting individually

um for a for the democrats in order to

you know reduce even if there's still

going to be harm it'll be that much

different for that it'll make a

difference to real concrete individuals

well you're still speaking in terms of

like an abstract scale of millions of

people so if you can speak in terms of

millions of people at that scale of harm

reduction or whatever why can't you

speak in terms of time

what if in the short term people may

suffer more but in the long term you're

securing a better future what if if you

don't act now and fight for a third

party alternative to the current

establishment future generations are

going to be uh more profoundly harmed

than the amount of people who are going

to be harmed now so i'm interested if

you can address this issue of the scale

of time

uh the fourth thing i think i heard you

mentioned i'm supposed to go point by

point so we could just have a i'll

combine the last two so you basically

said you you can still vote local and

vote for democrats at the national level

well that's true um

you know you obviously can do that and

i'm not saying oh you're morally

hypocritical or inconsistent for it but

i'm saying in terms of what would be

necessary for building a third party

yes in terms of this fear of the

information war and optics you can't be

shilling for the democrats at the

national level and then voting for the

uh

then then saying oh let's vote for the

third you're just telling you're not

you're telling people you're not willing

to risk

uh enough for this party you basically

don't believe in it you believe the

current options are the only ones that

releases and you're saying oh that's

privileged to focus on optics um

because you're you know you're not

focusing on poor people and doing

charity well guess what those poor

people you're talking about are the

literally the people who don't [ __ ]

vote so i don't know why you like if

it's about them and you're using them as

your excuse and them as your shield why

don't they vote they don't vote

overwhelmingly the people who don't vote

are not privileged people it's the

privileged people in this country who go

out and vote the most and spread the

word that people should vote

non-privileged people don't give a [ __ ]

about politics they don't believe in the

system and the establishment they think

it's the two parties are the same thing

in fact a third party would mo probably

mobilize more currently politically

apathetic voters than any other

political option on the table so this is

an absurd argument you're you're

leveling oh it's privileged and then the

idea that politics isn't about

information and optics politics as i

said in this country politics is only

information plus organization that's all

it is there's there's nothing more to

politics in this country but optics

slash information and organization it's

not about charity it's not about harm

reduction it's not about doing things

now so less people suffer why don't you

sign up personally destiny you should

sign up for a soup kitchen instead of

sitting on your ass streaming if you're

gonna talk about oh what can i do

individually to help the most people

individually you can why don't you give

your money to charity why don't you work

for a soup kitchen you know if you want

to go down that road and act like that's

what politics is about

you know it's uh it's a complete

absurdity

okay for going forward we're gonna go

point by point we don't have like five

or ten minute statements okay can okay

i feel like if we do that i feel like

i've lost because now i can't respond to

everything that we said though okay so

we will have you give a three to three

and a half minute statement then we're

going point by point past that i don't

want to have essays what is that for

then you would be able to respond

well see this you got to draw the line

somewhere in this one sure yeah he

smoked like five minutes first okay so

at the very least i'll just i'll do my

response and then okay so in terms of

what would the situation look like for

the parties to collapse i don't know

exactly what that would look like but i

imagine it probably wouldn't look like a

record number of votes for both

presidential candidates in the history

of the united states of america um it

would probably look for like it would

look like less and less people voting or

maybe the rise of third parties and

other areas um or i don't know maybe

like an inability to fundraise or i mean

there are like signs or things where

it's like maybe some huge piece of

legislation that caused a fracture from

a party like some people could argue

that january 6 was the class of the

republican party because some people

left the republican party after that

probably not enough for it to happen but

i mean there are signs that we could

look for for a collapse but whatever

those signs are we absolutely don't see

them now it's not youtube people saying

that like oh my god these parties suck

they're both the same when we talk about

how the infrastructure bill can't be

passed because of democrats it's this is

just like the dumbest thing that anybody

could possibly ever say we are split 50

50 right now we are fighting for votes

49 and 50 on the democratic side we're

not fighting for any of the 50

republicans that are standing against

this piece of legislation it is not the

democrats that are preventing the bill

from being passed it is 50 republicans

plus one or two incredibly moderate or

conservative democrats that are in the

way of this infrastructure building past

to try to say that it's the same you try

to say that the democrats are are

preventing it from being passed shows

like a misunderstanding of how our

legislative bodies work there's not a

single republican willing to come on

board with this okay well then you need

every single democrat to come on board

with it which is really hard for what is

arguably like the largest piece of

legislation it's a new deal it's a huge

piece of legislation um

in terms of again the party is not a

unified party can you provide or show

like how there's like unifying support i

mean there were huge turnouts for the

presidential election but in terms of

like unifying support i mean like a

democrat in one area is not going to be

the same as a democrat in another area a

republican in one area might be the same

as a republican in another area but if

anything this is an argument in favor of

the um of the ability for a two-party

system to work even with dramatically

different voters across the united

states you know democrats that support

that support mansion in west virginia

aren't going to be the same as the most

left-leaning democrats that would

support somebody like aoc or democrats

that exist in california um and again

like your argument you're bringing up a

lot of arguments i think support my

system right you're saying like the

parties have fundamentally changed over

time of course the parties have a lot of

tenacity much like how marx said that

capitalism embeds itself into the

government and also has abilities to

perpetuate itself over long periods of

time preventing the rise of a socialist

economy um political parties also do as

well but this this entrenchment of the

political parties and their ability to

kind of like morph and change and be a

little bit flexible as people's opinions

change that's just arguments in favor of

them continuing to stand the test of

time as they've had both for like almost

like over 150 years for both of them

when we talk about like

engaging in harm reduction um engaging

in harm reduction is literally about

choosing the lesser of multiple evils

it's it's not pontificating about an

ideal third-party nirvana that might

exist 20 years from now that there's

absolutely no road map for right now in

any of the upcoming like federal level

elections um i i don't know how anybody

could say that that's a harm reduction

when we talk about like in the short

term you know people might suffer but in

the long term maybe we're securing a

better future that's just like i don't

know in the long term it could be a

fascist dictatorship that rises up after

a civil war i don't know if i would

trust the democrats or left-leaning

people in this country to win a civil

war against republicans no offense uh so

yeah this idea that we need to throw

away like our current electoral

advantage in order to like do this huge

gamut for this future that we have zero

proof even exist that we even think we

don't even know if there's that much

support for these left-leaning parties

in the united states it seems like

people like bernie sanders would prove

that the support that they believe is

there just isn't uh when you say that

you can't chill for dems at a national

level and then vote for a local third

party again you absolutely can your

local politics your local political

scene is going to be way different than

your national level political scene um i

i don't know where these statements are

are born out of other than just an

unfamiliarity with uh with local

political scenes like you can have local

political people that are democrats or

republicans that are wildly different in

terms of what they support uh based on

the national levels you can totally

support different candidates on a local

level and different candidates at a

federal level this is exactly why we

talk about down ballot voting why

sometimes it's important sometimes down

ballot votes diverge from the from the

top of the line vote especially when it

comes to presidential elections um when

you talk about poor people don't vote

that's true but they're still affected

by policy they're absolutely affected by

policies there's a lot of poor people

that didn't vote for biden that are

still benefiting off the child tax

credit or or potentially anything that's

coming from the infrastructure bill um

and then in terms of like you know if

maybe a third party will galvanize these

people get out to vote third parties

exist right now bernie sanders tried

this like we're going to get all these

people who traditionally don't vote to

go on vote people say this all the time

we're going to get these people we're

going to mobilize these people vote it

never happens if there is some third

party that can magically mobilize or

galvanize these third these non-voters

into like new voters that'd be great it

would be like a historic thing in order

to do that people have tried people have

failed um and in terms of like i don't

think politics is about running soup

kitchens either if you want to talk

about like personal charity or volunteer

work we can talk about that but that's a

fundamentally different question than

whether or not we should support third

parties

okay now from now on it's gonna be point

by point i just don't want five five

minute statements going back and forth

so that's how it's gonna be going from

this point on okay uh very quickly i'll

run down the list so the reason there

was incredible turnout in the recent

election was not because anyone believes

in the unity of the democrats and the

republicans it was a referendum on trump

and that's all it was trump defined

american politics at that point people

voted for biden not because they

believed in a unifying democratic

consensus or they believe in a unified

democratic party but because it was a

referendum on trump that's the only

reason you're going to see um such high

turnout because trump has divided this

country uh down the middle and that's

the only thing that unites democrats at

this point is that they're against trump

um

why couldn't it be a referendum on trump

by going out to vote for a third party

what do you mean we don't have a third

party doesn't exist right now there's no

the infrastructure for one no one's

building one or not no one's people not

enough people are committing to the work

of building a third party you yourself

streamers and influencers who represent

alternative media you are not um

giving them a chance you're just

shilling for the establishment while

possessing the very media infrastructure

to make a third party possible so if you

want to ask me why do we have a third

party right now well it's people like me

and it's other people who are using

their media platforms to try and work

for one and get something off the ground

and i just started recently i don't know

how my luck is going to fare but you

already have a really big sizeable

platform and a big audience you could do

wonders for a third party yourself

destiny i'm not saying i don't support

third parties so that's why i don't i

use my

okay okay

so when you say point by point do you

mean like i can't go down the list and

address everything or

dylan one point point we're going point

five point yes so you can like move from

one point to the next point after you've

addressed it yeah i don't know how like

we think that like the way that third

parties are gonna rise in the americas

off the backs of youtubers and twitch

streamers that seems like a pretty like

well look it you can call it youtubers

or twitch streamers and i'll call it

alternative media and

youtube sounds like a silly website and

it's a silly website on the internet

with minecraft or whatever pewdiepie but

the truth is that youtube and this is

you can read the mainstream media

because they themselves will confess

this has been an incredible platform for

alternative media even alternative media

you probably aren't so

vehemently opposed to like the young

turks for example you were probably a

young turks guy i mean your politics was

probably defined entirely for many years

as being a young turks democrat right

and that's because of alternative media

okay um

people who call themselves

the so-called progressive movement in

the united states after the obama era

its media was media like the young turks

and democracy now and these kind of

alternative media platforms that were

largely on youtube so this idea that

youtube is in a serious platform for

alternative media well it's just that

this alternative media has first emerged

on youtube will it always be on youtube

probably not but you know like let's see

like who's who's been successful in like

making real headway into actual politics

from youtube right well i'll give you a

good i'll give you a good example um the

so-called justice democrats was an

initiative launched by the young turks

and kyle kulinski and i'm against aoc i

completely oppose eoc but where did they

launch that initiative they did it

within they did it within the democratic

party yeah i know and the reason for

that by the way is because the

democratic party already had the

fundamental infrastructure and the

democratic party was a recognizable

party with a base but we've seen

actually how this initiative has turned

out and we see that within the

democratic party

the justice democrats as an initiative

failed entirely because we don't have

our own independent uh party with its

own independent streams of revenue

and its own independent um structure

that's not going to prevent progressives

from being able to take take over the

party and very early on when aoc was

elected you know they

the whole mainstream media and um the

party itself quickly quickly did

everything in its power to squash that

in its cradle and at this point aoc has

been completely co-opted as just another

democrat so that's not really a good

argument for why we shouldn't be doing

it for a third party but regardless

seriously that's an amazing argument so

i mean like the justice stems like were

probably what i from what i know of is

like the best initiative from an

alternative media platform um the young

turks and kyle kalinski but it failed

were able to do it but they they had to

do it going forward let's reflect on its

failure let's reflect on the reasons for

its failure wait wait no no no no no no

no no wait you're saying failure but i

don't think it's a failure they've got

like four really strong members that are

elected aoc is arguably like the most

popular politics okay since politics is

about making people's lives better what

is aoc done for the american people that

makes it such a successful initiative

aoc doesn't have the ability to leverage

much so we we have hold on aoc has been

bad for the democrats

aoc has been bad for this inability to

hold hold on hold on in the united

states because people like you seem to

think that aoc needs to be able to solo

change no i don't but it's a trajectory

but but at the very least for example

she could make maybe a mar she can do

like a little bit of help but aoc has

only done harm for the democrats

actually aoc um has been an optics

disaster for democrats and a propaganda

ammunition for the republicans at this

point like

even as a democrat you can't say aoc is

an example of someone's success it's not

a aoc has been a disaster for them like

maybe trump could have won in 2020

because of politicians like aoc were so

divisive in this country aoc was the

face of

like the the wing of the democrats that

precisely has no chance whatsoever from

uh reaching out to trump's constituent

base and uh this these type of people

that biden himself was trying to win

over so no it's not a good example um

aoc was i don't know i like your your

point is that like aoc hasn't like

solely solo like drafted legislation no

i'm not i i'm not asking her to solo

draft legislation i'm asking her to

initiate that we have destiny to finish

this point quick

yeah so like this idea that like she's a

felt like people say this over and over

and over again if you want i guess we

can talk about the structure of the us

government but like i'm sorry but again

this shows like the short-sightedness of

people that have these huge legislative

initiatives and can only get like one or

two or three or four people into office

like you have to build these caucuses

this [ __ ] takes time this [ __ ] takes

real work you guys want this fantasy

world we're out of nowhere you're going

to have like 200 people march into

congress thinking that they're all going

to be these third-party people to spoke

that's not how this works right now far

left like lawmakers don't really have

the leverage they need because right now

you barely barely barely have a

legislative majority in the senate if

that's the case you're always going to

be appealing to people in the middle

that can be lost next election season to

the other side like aoc can make all the

stinks she wants her seat's not being

taken by a republican there's a reason

why people like cinema or why people

like mansion have the have the leverage

and the pull that they do and it's

because they're the ones that exist

close to the center but if you had a

margin of like 52 dems or 54 dems and

you didn't have to worry as much about

that center then people on the really

far left could start making more power

plays you know where aoc is like i'm not

going to support this piece of

legislation until this happens if this

happens and it's like okay well you know

we've got some wiggle room we got 53 52

democrats in here like maybe we can

start to uh make appeals to that side of

the political outcome okay yeah yeah

right okay so this hold on there's two

things i want to say before you cut me

off and i'm going to try to get it in

quick the first one is i'm not saying

aoc has to propose all this legislation

all i'm saying is she has at least

should start some kind of change within

the democratic party and she hasn't done

anything like that at least for the

positive as far as the ability for the

democrats to win over the people that

are voting for republicans currently now

the second thing is that you're

basically implying you basically make

this completely a contradictory argument

on the one hand you say well third

parties are not possible because the

current political reality is the only

reality on this one other hand you say

oh the reason why and i wanted to

actually get to this point but

apparently we can't um kristin cinema

and joe manchin have leverage it's

because there's not enough democrats

that have a majority over the

republicans but that's implying that the

reason for that isn't because of these

objective political realities of

populations in the united states who

will never vote for the democrats and

will stick on the republicans it's this

idea that the reason why it's such a

slim majority right now is because

there's not enough

politically minded young people who are

going out and voting for the democrats i

completely reject that view i think the

reason why

it's split down the middle is because

this country is actually split down the

middle and for you to say and i really

want to address this point for you to

say that the democrats it's not the

democrats fault because they can't pass

the infrastructure bill is the most

stupid thing i've ever heard

you the democrats are the ones it's a

given republicans are going to oppose it

the democrats have a majority now as a

party they're supposed to act in a

unified way if it's a unified party and

yet it's because of a faction of the

democrats that you're not getting this

bill passed you can't blame the

republicans because you already told

people to vote for democrats as an

alternative to the republicans so they

voted democrat so much to the point that

the democrats have a majority but now

you're saying oh that's not enough the

democrats have to have an even more

bigger majority well how much wiggle

room is there for democrats to win

when

you know like how much ability is there

for democrats to win over these trump

supporting uh republicans to the point

where you know you can keep making these

excuses i don't buy it i don't think

it's going to happen you're not going to

win over these trump people as a

democrat

and

that seems self-evident and obvious to

me you're just gonna the country's

divided down the middle

and i don't see how you've addressed

that in any way even how how can you

address the current political

contradiction

i i don't know what the contradiction is

so like you say for instance like

democrats have a majority but they're

supposed to act a unified way but then

it sounded like earlier you were saying

that like the democrat party isn't

unified it's got a ton of different

that's why that was my point it's not

unified wait so yeah but so this is the

point right if you have 50 democrats in

office not every single democrat is

going to have these same legislative

initiatives every other democrat a

democratic senator from west virginia is

going to be far different than a

democratic senator from california but

the infrastructure bill is is one of

those things that defines the unity of

the democrats as a party especially in

this political moment

where

it's a test of whether the democrats can

pass bills right if you can't do this

you may as well not be you may as well

not even be in the same party if you

don't agree to pass this infrastructure

bill

i guess we can like talk about like

political strategy because that's what

this comes down to like mansion and

cinema are not going to give up their

seats to vote for something that's going

to lose them a future election like i'm

sorry but that's just like the political

reality people seem to think like oh the

democrats are going to come together and

vote we don't have we don't there's only

one national level thing that we do in

the united states and that's the

presidential election otherwise you've

got 50 senators two from each state and

you've got 438 members of the house and

then one or two from dc that don't do

anything

like and these people are all trying to

win in their individual little districts

now we come together under large wings

of who we consider republicans and who

we consider democrats but that doesn't

mean that every single person under that

wing is going to vote the exact same so

hold on cinema well they've got a

majority so hold on cinema and continue

hold on let me finish responding you

talk like 20 minutes okay when you have

a quote unquote majority that's

literally a tiebreaker by the vice

president you're talking about the

slimmest [ __ ] margins in the world

trump had the exact same problems when

he had um even bigger margins when he

couldn't repeal and replace uh the aca

like he ran into similar problems too

where he didn't get part of his

legislative agenda passed he didn't get

the wall done like he wanted to you know

um we have a lot of problems with

gridlock right now in the senate that's

why things like the nuclear option

become a problem that's why we have

people like trying to get rid of the

filibuster like i agree that gridlock is

a problem but you can't say like well

look we've got you your 50 senators

where is all of this key legislation

coming from because that's not going to

happen because by definition any

political party that includes a ton of

people at the very edges is going to

have people that are more moderate that

are going to have to be catered to when

it comes to passing legislation with

incredibly slim majorities so i don't

know why you mentioned trump having

problems too because it's also my view

that the republican party is ultimately

doomed as well the republican party

right now is trump's party if it's

something beyond trump's party then the

party's doomed to collapse so it's

trump's party right now any republican

who's not on board with trump i don't

see having a future within the so-called

republican would you bet on any of this

would you bet on a third party um

is it destiny

here's my issue no no i'm gonna simplify

the issue here's my issue you keep using

this language like would you bet on the

prospects is it going to happen at what

point i get that there are objective

realities in politics like you i'm not a

utopian i don't think that politics is

just based on my personal moral views

and my personal ideology i get it there

are objective realities that reject the

objective

realities of people's sentiments and

beliefs or whatever but at what point

does will actually make a difference in

politics at what point do you have to

stand up and work for something and

build something and fight for something

that there doesn't exist any immediate

precedent for if the actual innovators

in the history of american politics had

your mentality we would have no change

in the history of american politics at

all there would be no abe lincoln there

would be no uh franklin roosevelt there

would be maybe even there would be no

john f kennedy or maybe if it depends on

where you fall on the political spectrum

maybe no richard nixon you have to take

risks you have to fight for some things

for which there doesn't exist any

immediate precedent for

because you can't keep deferring to what

is the current reality the current

reality isn't just objective it also

includes subjective realities and

there's a certain point where you have

to step in and actually have will in

politics

so the reason why nobody would vote on

third parties is because you guys know

that they're not a possibility like you

won't even vote with odds right i would

ask you is there a 10 chance that your

party will then i'll give you 10 one

odds on somebody like making wait wait

destiny i want a third party to be built

yeah so if you want to build a third

party okay you keep saying that like if

people thought like you nothing would

happen then build and start that is what

i'm doing that is what i'm doing but in

order to build a destiny in order to

build a third party i'll explain it

simply yeah yeah program okay

let's let's let's let's walk it back a

little bit if i want to build a third

party which is my goal then i'm not

going to i'm not going to enter a debate

what i'm going to have is uh destiny

finish what are you saying about the

betting and i'm going to have to bring

it to infrared to respond

and i'll count personally how long the

response is and i'll keep it under a

minute and 30 seconds for both of

you okay gotcha i'm just trying to

respond to what you said so like um if

you want to build something then start

building something building something

doesn't mean doing whatever gets you the

most views on youtube or twitch because

shilling for third parties is like the

most like extremist popular cool thing

that you can do that's literally all it

is there's no real building going on by

advocating for an extreme position that

you yourself because you won't even put

money on it no it's an absolute pipe

dream fantasy it's an incredibly

privileged position to take from behind

your computer screen because it sells

well it's cool it's nice to make youtube

titles title that or whatever when it

comes to real people that need real help

this type of [ __ ] doesn't help you know

you mentioned soup kitchens and [ __ ]

earlier if you want to get real

effective political change find a local

candidate to support you can do national

level fundraising or international

fundraising in order to support local

candidates at a city level or even at a

state level or work on like mutual aid

programs these different systems that

can exist that can subsume and then

replace these capitalist systems you

know that you can replace things like

food stamps or daycare or other things

you can build these programs out as well

or find a union that has a political

slant and support them build them up

raise money for that stuff like all of

these things are things that you can do

if you want to affect real political

change just hopping on to the most

popular election that you can to get as

many views as possible and then try to

claim oh i'm doing things to make the

world better no you're not you just want

to be on the presidential election push

your candidate because that works that's

what gets you the most views the most

money in the most donations

okay well i have a minute and 30 seconds

so

look destiny if you if people can't like

i said you didn't actually address the

two arguments you didn't address the

argument about

national elections because it's about

information war plus organization are

what define

uh politics up and down the ballot okay

and if i'm gonna advocate for a third

party which is what i'm doing i'm not

gonna tell people to vote for the

democrats i'm going to get people mad

about the democrats i'm gonna get people

mad about the republicans and i'm going

to broadcast as best of my ability using

my platform to get people to go out and

build a third party and focus if they

want to get involved in politics and do

that work and they have free time to do

it focus your energy on building a third

party to whom it may concern so if i'm

interested in building a third party

that's what i'm going to say you're

saying i'm only doing this reviews which

is interesting people like hassan [ __ ]

dwarf me in views and um

that's also a pun i guess but they dwarf

me in views and

they don't advocate for a third party

right now so i don't know why you're

saying that's like something that's uh

you know that's something that's only

doing it for clicks interviews i'm

taking a lot of risks taking the

position that i am and it has paid off

but that was based on risk destiny not

precedent uh this the other thing you

said is that uh

you guys know no one's going to vote for

a third party i don't think that's true

i think when you look at what americans

believe in terms of the issues and you

look at the platforms of the respective

political parties there is such a vast

difference between those two things then

i think the situation is very ripe for a

third party right now and like i said if

people can't vote for their own

interests use the soup kitchen charity

argument oh go vote and help people

personally if people can't vote in their

own interests because the poor people

aren't the ones who are voting those

people you're saying are victims and

need our help they don't vote if they

can't vote in their own interests why do

we have a democracy

okay

i mean why have democracy

i mean they have the ability to vote but

i mean like yeah but what's the point of

democracy if you're just going to vote

on behalf of other people

i i i mean like and again like you said

just like all the all the progressives

like what's the point of democracy if

you won't support my people like why

aren't you guys like no i'm saying if

you're if your reason for voting is for

other people and those people aren't

going to be getting out there and voting

for themselves why the [ __ ] do we even

have democracy why don't you advocate

for an undemocratic technocracy in which

destiny does policies for people's best

interests

minute 50 okay so we're going to throw

it over to destiny to respond

okay so

when you talk about how first of all

your position okay so you you vote in

the ways that you do ideally to uh make

a better world for yourself better work

for other people i guess it depends on

why people vote this idea that like

you're voting for poor people that don't

vote i just i don't understand you're

fundamentally doing the same thing no

i'm not

and you're trying to say also again just

like like really far-left progressives

would say it's like oh these people they

really support us they just don't know

it yet oh they would support our

policies they just don't know it yet i

mean like if there's all these poor

people out here that aren't voting like

why haven't third parties made the

argument to them to get them out to vote

it just doesn't happen they don't go out

and they don't vote for third parties

because third parties don't have any

like local or state or third parties

don't attract their attention so there's

like no there's no third parties aren't

getting their attention right now so

when you talk about how like everything

you've done is based on risk not

precedent absolutely not people come out

with extreme points of view all the time

that was your entire branding was being

the most extreme [ __ ] you

possibly could be every single person

here knows that your entire branding is

being abrasive and screaming like a 2016

destiny that supports a third party

instead of one of the two primary ones

um the idea that you can't focus energy

on like building a third party on a

local level also just doesn't make sense

if it's something that's so [ __ ]

important to you that you think is so

important you that you think matters so

much well i mean what are you doing to

help build a third party is it literally

just the stuff that also coincidentally

empowers you to make more money on

youtube and twitch is it the stuff that

helps you build audiences and networks

and connections just like assange does

on twitch or have you actually like you

know stuck your neck out and done things

to support third-party candidates like

are there any local or state-level

third-party candidates you support or do

you not give a [ __ ] about any of that

you just want to hop on and talk about

presidential stuff because that's where

the viewership is well okay you're wrong

on that account i have platformed local

uh people running for local elections

like steven estrada for the communist

party of long beach in california so

you're completely talking out of your

[ __ ] ass and the idea that i've built

my entire brand on being the most

extreme person possible this is such a

recklessly stupid thing to say that even

surprises me coming from you um my tone

may be extreme my style may be extreme

but in terms of the content of the views

i've actually espoused there's nothing

extreme about them i've reached out to

conservatives i've reached out to even

to trump people and right-wing people

and i've condemned

far-left extremism i have a condemned

extremism across the board i've called

myself almost ironically a communist

centrist there's nothing extreme about

the actual content of my views the

content of my views is actually very

tame and reasonable now

optics wise and that the spectacle i put

up is extreme but that doesn't actually

reflect the things i say if you discount

my views on history and maybe communism

and the soviet union and maybe china

maybe that would be considered extreme

in the united states but in terms of

what i advocate for here there's nothing

extreme about it so yeah they're like i

said and especially that's especially

why there's no precedent for a guy like

me a self-proclaimed marxist leninist

who doesn't pander to the extremists and

ultra leftists um that you know that

that say oh yeah all elections and

politics are meaningless we should just

advocate for revolution now and direct

action whatever the [ __ ] they say um

which is ironically sometimes something

hassan on the low key flirts with but he

doesn't advocate for entirely um

i really forgot the other [ __ ] you said

before so refresh my memory how can you

say you're not an extreme when you

literally are talking about like

assuming both political parties and

voting third party yeah

but because i i think that do you think

the united states has an extreme

position do you think we live in an

extreme time here in the united states i

think with reality

relative to the political climate what

i'm advocating for is very moderate

you think that a marxist leninist in the

united states right now is a moderate

position to be in

i don't think i i don't think right

right now right now as far as the

majority of people are concerned i don't

think marxist lending is positions

have their attention or have any

significance among them but put my

marxism leninism aside i'm advocating

for a big tent third party that will

reach out to people across the political

aisle who merely agree upon the fact

that the current political establishment

is insular and gatekept that doesn't

allow up-and-coming people with bright

ideas people like

maybe initially

before he his political uh you know

change of tone maybe people like andrew

yang and all these people who have

innovative political ideas whatever you

want even libertarians uh the ron paul

people whatever whatever you want we can

all agree

that regardless of where we stand

politically and ideologically if you're

not part of the big club which is the

current establishment who's in bed with

special interests and who all know each

other and who all attend their family's

weddings and their families you know

events and social gatherings if you

don't know these people you don't have a

future in politics right now so i think

there needs to be a big tent people's

party a third party

that

is about saving american democracy from

these um entrenched two parties

which have gate kept the ability for

politics to actually give expression to

what the american people actually want

and like i said would you deny that

there's a disconnect between the actual

policy platforms that americans mostly

agree upon and the platforms of the

respective parties because most

americans agree with each other when it

comes to meat and potatoes issues and

that's not people say this all the time

that meet my issues like american gain

on your mic you probably should lower it

a little bit

this is uh i don't know what this is not

my mic so i don't

i don't know how to work this uh mic

okay we'll make two of

them so i mean

i'm gonna hold you to one thing i guess

because you you're dancing away from

every point like you are an extremist i

don't know how you could say that you're

not an extremist like when you advocate

for a third party and you at which point

was i dancing from political parties

then by definition like i'm not saying

extremist is bad or maybe you want to

avoid like the moral loading of the word

but like you must have some pretty

extreme positions and by your own

admission there are these huge nets that

are cast by the republican in the

democratic party and you're not caught

by either one of those um i don't even

think this is the most extreme time in

u.s history and i would still say that

you have like very extreme political

views like being a marxist londoner is

just a pretty extreme unless you're

going to say that like oh you know

there's tons of mls in the united states

which i think every lefty would shoot

themselves if you ironically believe

that like there's no way everybody knows

this when you talk about how the

republicans and the democrats are

gatekeeping politics i mean like

inorganically there's probably some

extent to this going on in terms of like

deciding who gets to be hosted at large

uh debates and whatnot like i'm sure we

can say this happens but um also

organically this probably happens as

well because the democratic and the

republican party are so huge because

they include so many different beliefs

because it includes so many different

types of people then by definition it's

going to be a little bit exclusionary

because if you want to run as a third

party like chances are depending on

where you are you could probably just

run as a republican or a democrat and

you'd be fine bernie sanders is

relatively extreme but when he runs for

president he runs as a democrat you know

um

the idea that also that like all

americans agree like you you keep

repeating this argument over and over

again and it sounds nice but i'm sorry

but like people have ran with these

arguments over again everybody agrees to

me they just don't know it americans

agree they just don't have mlids in

their head they just don't know it they

just don't know it okay well then the

owners want you to get these views out

in front of them and prove it because

right now it kind of just sounds like a

whole bunch of copium or it's like oh

trust me they love my platform they just

knew about it a lot of people know about

these platforms they just don't like

them that much um and then finally i

don't think there is agreement broadly

on like the quote-unquote potatoes

issues because we've got these huge

political divides again that you've said

do exist in the united states it's hard

to say americans agree on meat potatoes

issues when republicans and democrats

are more polarized than they ever have

been when it comes to how to address the

problems in the united states mean

potatoes issues might be something like

you know the earned income tax credit or

child tax credit which are like hardly

democratically supportive things mean

potato issues might be things like who

should get health care which is

something that is supported by the

democratic party not the republican

party um you know free education or easy

access to education time

yeah um so you're saying my position is

extreme because i'm advocating for a

third party

well i don't i like i said you didn't

address my argument we live in an

extreme political climate in which a

third party is not something that's so

extreme but if you look at the

election of trump and all the [ __ ]

that's gone down for the past you know

four years or or more

yeah i don't i just don't see it as

extreme you say oh you're extreme

because you're a marxist leninist well i

just don't think the americans are

familiar with what marxism leninism is

or how marxism leninism uh might

actually be something or marxist lenders

leaders at least might be people that

they're interested in i'm trying to make

the case and show them that i don't

expect the majority of americans to have

sympathetic views toward marxism

leninism or to my specific ideology and

i don't blame them for it i'm trying to

make the case and i think

marxist-leninists need to prove that

dialectical materialism and

marxism is actually useful in being able

to actually uh maneuver politically and

and win politically so that's something

i actually want to prove in practice now

i think the main thrust of your argument

is basically that

see i'm in a position where i'm able to

experiment you're saying oh it's copium

that you're thinking that everyone

agrees with you wait i'm not necessarily

saying everyone agrees with me but what

i am doing is i'm i'm trying to

establish an ability to experiment with

what people really want and just be open

to the fact that what people really want

in this country is different from what's

being represented to them in the form of

the establishment whether this

establishment is is gate kept

organically or inorganically is

completely irrelevant i don't care

whether it's inorganic organic but it's

actually funny that one of the examples

for inorganic gatekeeping was something

that had to actually be proven by

wikileaks

and that's the only reason you [ __ ]

know about it in the first place if it

wasn't for wikileaks we we wouldn't have

even have known about that so who knows

what else goes goes on behind the scenes

but what was proven by wikileaks exactly

the um the collaboration between cnn and

um hillary clinton in the democratic

debates

sure so that was definitely bad but i

don't think that rises to the level of

gatekeeping right where somebody was

passing off questions it shouldn't have

happened but that that gatekeeping an

argument well it makes it harder

for people like bernie sanders to

perform

it was bad it was horrible so it's

gatekeeping they're gates keeping the

party from outsiders

perceived outsiders

sure but bernie also came up through the

democratic party you're right ran in

that primary and both of them enjoyed a

great deal of support within the

democratic party right yeah to say that

he's like an example of like gatekeeping

that's a pretty shitty job at

gatekeeping if that's the case

well they they well the point is is he

rose so much from scratch without any

institutional support within the

democrats and even then they had to work

against them so i think that's actually

a really good example of gatekeeping if

arguably like one of the most successful

politicians

in the past like five years just in

terms of like national media coverage

presidential election is somebody that

was gay kept

i mean in that case i don't care about

gatekeeping because i guess it doesn't

work very well if bernie sanders is able

to do it off of small donations without

enjoying anything well because the small

the small donations were something that

were not anticipated by the political

elite within the democrats or the

republican even when it came to trump

who didn't primarily rely on small

donations i know that but none of them

anticipated hey this is just about money

anyone with enough money can basically

rival what we're doing and they never

entertain the possibility because like

you destiny back in 2016 or 2015 they're

all sitting around and saying ah nothing

new under the sun it's always been the

same everything's been the same there's

no possibility trump's going to win the

republican primary he wanted oh there's

no possibility he's going to win the

election he won it oh there's no

possibility that a guy like bernie has a

chance he did have a good chance you

know what i'm saying people like you

have always been on the losing side of

actual history especially reasons does

this make sense because all of the

people that you're talking about exist

within the realm of the main two

political parties yeah yeah i know but i

don't understand why i i this is an

example of anything that supports you i

i don't

listen i i was a destiny you're

neglecting

you're neglecting that i was a bernie

supporter in 2016. so i wanted bernie to

win i was fully on board with bernie

i'm i'm i'm just was going to be a great

realignment of like political parties

third party's going to write something

to do something it seems like like 2016.

i never said third parties are gonna

spontaneously rise and do something i've

always been consistent about the fact

that this is something that requires

will not deference to some external

objective reality second of all i

advocated i was a bernie supporter back

in 2016. all i've done is in in contrast

to you the so-called omni liberals and

the hassan chapo people whoever the hell

these people are i am trying to

seriously and honestly reflect upon the

reasons for bernie's failure now it's

not just the establishment it's also an

issue internally that i've also

relentlessly critiqued and ruthlessly

critiqued before but it stands uh

as far as my views are concerned and i

haven't seen you address this in any

substantive way

that the time is ripe for a third party

if the time is right for the third party

then where are they like

destiny when i'm saying the time is

right i'm talking destiny now the time

is right now i don't you want me to

point you for an example from five years

ago when i'm talking about now we should

be getting up and working destiny we

should work to build a third party now

that's what i'm trying to say i'm not

saying we should it should have been

done uh two years ago or three years ago

forget about that

obviously it hasn't happened yet but

that's what i'm here to make the case

for it's almost like if someone tells

you hey destiny can you go to the

grocery store and get me go some

groceries saying oh why haven't i gotten

you groceries before

i'm telling you to do it now you know

what i mean like your argument doesn't

make any sense

okay

all i'm saying is that if the time is

right for a third party then where is it

i can't argue against this like

nirvanistic like i don't say fallacy but

this this nirvana you're presenting it's

like the time is right it's gonna happen

now it's gonna happen now it's gonna

like no i didn't say it's gonna happen

i'm saying it should happen okay it may

not okay wait wait wait wait i'll give

him i'm doing the 1 30 1 30. i swear to

god you will have equal time to talk i

just want to make sure people can hear

what he's saying uh destiny

where are the third parties okay like

it's funny because i accused you of

engaging in massive copium and then you

literally engaged in massive cobia like

americans just don't know what ml is

like if they just if they all if these

poor people that didn't even know how to

vote uh knew what dialectical

materialism is they would understand the

material conditions they live in and

they no i didn't say that you're taking

words out of my mouth

no you that's not what i said they wrote

down that you mentioned i i said i said

i said i said dialectical materialism

i literally wrote quotes i'm writing

quotes

i didn't say

my words out of context i said

here's what i said about dialectical

materialism i basically just said that

it could be proven that political

partisans who are equipped with

dialectical materialism can prove

they're anything you're saying

can

can prove their ability as political

leaders and organizers and lead by

example and therefore prove the merit of

dialectical materialism and practice i'm

not talking about you know

disseminating esoteric theories and

philosophies to people that they they

secretly care about dialect materials

i'm just saying the utility of

dialectical materialism is something

that can be proven in practice

by means of um savvy and and

conscientious political operatives who

are using these theories to actually win

people over and uh and win victories now

has it happened yet no it hasn't but

that's why i'm here because i believe it

can happen and if i'm wrong i'm wrong

but to say that i'm coping when i'm

merely talking about something i think

should happen and something that i'm

committing to

contribute as best as i can to happen is

ridiculous if i say oh i'm going to try

and do something uh oh that's copium why

because i'm

because i'm entertaining the possibility

something that's being

okay

you have 20 seconds left

why because i'm entertaining the

possibility that it can happen if i fail

i'll learn from my failure and and adapt

that's what praxis means but i'm not

going to sit idly and have this

guarantee in an establishment which has

had

decades to prove its itself to the

american people and has failed so i'm

going to keep failing and get better and

how is that cope i don't understand

so you keep saying people want something

that's not being represented by the

establishment yeah what is it in your

mind the third party can offer that's

not being represented by the

establishment sure i think when it comes

to broad issues like for example

uh how exactly are we going to address

this fourth industrial revolution and

this um rapid change in the uh nature of

jobs and work and with the way people

are employed especially not what the

infrastructure bill aims to do the

infrastructure can't even get passed

not yet it hasn't it's not and and it's

been slimmed down so [ __ ] much it's

the infrastructure that's being pushed

by you're not getting your

infrastructure bill you're not getting

that bill okay if infrared do you want

to expand it's still your time so if you

want to expand yeah yeah you're not

gonna that's the worst thing you could

have said destiny the infrastructure

bill is precisely an example of why the

things americans need can't actually be

get uh

get done under the leadership of the two

parties or the democratic party right

now i mean it's the worst thing you

could have said debate wise opt you know

wow take the l anyway

um

what you said about um

i was losing my training

how exactly we're going to address this

fourth industrial revolution yeah good

change of nature of jobs right yeah this

world salad [ __ ] okay okay

infrastructure bill literally aims to

try to address some of that and it fails

to tell me that it fails

can't even pass with 50 democrats in the

senate yeah how the [ __ ] it's a third

party going to make a measure because

because a third party is actually going

to overcome the false divisions created

by the republicans and democrats and in

my view and i'm going to at least work

to give it a shot unify the american

people on the basis of their what i

consider common interests i don't think

that's division wait what are the false

can we do

the 30 minutes yeah i think for example

one of the reasons yeah the divisions

between the republicans and democrats

don't actually reflect in my view

authentic objective interest

in divisions as far as the real

interests of the american people are

concerned rather there are niche

cultural um

you know propaganda ideological

differences that

completely go beyond materially speaking

what matters

uh to the american people

so if there is somebody that's literally

a single so my mom prints a single issue

voter on things like abortion how are

you to decide for a voter oh that

doesn't matter to you because

abortion is the thing that brought her

to be passionate about politics

what abortion is the thing that drew her

into being passionate about politics

okay

and

running off of a mass movement a mass

popular movement will draw a great deal

of people disillusioned or otherwise

uninterested by the current political

system and political uh alternatives to

be interested in politics trump got a

lot of people to be interested in

politics who other otherwise wouldn't

have been uh bernie also did that so the

reason you're rambling

the the reasons why people are

interested in politics differ and this

is the explanation for single issue

voters because that issue was this

ideological and religious and um

narrative that suffice to actually draw

them to be interested in politics in the

first place the question is if we live

in a democracy why are there single

issueville voters why isn't it enough to

be interested in in politics for the

sake of

fighting on behalf of what you consider

your interests or the people's interests

well it's precisely because we have a

very big deficiency within our so-called

democracy and i think a third party

should run on a on the position of um

saving america

who are you to say that some of these

social issues that people single at your

vote on how can you call that a false

division when that is a real division

and those issues are important because

because at the end of the day

yeah because at the end of the day the

way in which it actually impacts their

life is not all that

significant to our performance you're so

then you're retreating back to the

argument earlier like they just don't

know what's good for them but i'm going

to show them so that they know what's

going on i i definitely believe the

american people right now do not

necessarily know

or have articulated the language of of

what their interests are but i don't i'm

not saying i already know

but but but and this is where you're

creating a straw man which is

unsustainable as far as what i've

actually said i'm not claiming to know

exactly what it is the american people

want all i'm committing to

is a willingness to reach out and

discover what that is i'm just rejecting

the idea that the only manifestation of

the american people's interests is being

reflected at the level of the two-party

system okay so that's awesome but right

now we're not talking about politics

then so politics is trying to secure

politics is about securing political

power that's what it's about if you're

not claiming to know what people want

then you can't have a platform no

actually politics

i just want to say to both of you

if we're both talking at the same time

nobody hears [ __ ] okay okay i know but

if i stop he just

yeah yeah destiny stop crying stop

crying doesn't he anyway politics is

wait okay i did it okay my major role my

one rule is when i'm talking nobody else

is talking okay i'm not gonna move on so

since the the problem is when you do the

point by point people are interrupting

more and when it comes to the other

thing when they do five minute diatribes

people don't want five minutes so i'm

gonna do my best to control this but i'm

just gonna like i'm gonna have this

destiny go i'm gonna swallow i'm gonna

try to shorten it to 30 seconds to one

minute instead so it could be more so

destiny then has we'll do 30 seconds for

one minute so it can be more point by

point but i want to go point my point

with the problems if i try to go point

by point when i go one point he goes

like you stop whining just roll with it

so much like talking stop bitching

you're wasting time dude i got places to

be

you obviously you don't if you agree to

do this you have an obligation to be

here so when you said that you're not

claiming to know what people want if

that's the case then you're not doing

politics politics is all about like

representing constituents we live in a

democracy unless you want to be

authoritarian dictator by definition if

you're doing political action you're

doing action on behalf of other people

to secure some type of political power

for you to try to skirt all of that and

to avoid any like responsibility or

strong claims or put a stake in the

ground saying this is what i believe in

and that's what i think they wanted to

just say i'm just trying to reach out

and discover go be a pollster

yeah that's phil it's a philosophically

and politically uh ideologically

untenable view or whatever because

politics is about building power but one

of the aspects of real politics is a

genuine openness

as to what uh being able to listen to

the people i mean if you want to talk

about i'm a marxist leninist to me i

learned this from maoism it's something

called the mass line you don't

necessarily begin with the assumption

you know what the people want you just

have a willingness to build an

institution to build an apparatus to

build some kind of organization from

which you are going to enter into a

certain dialectic or dialogue or

interaction if you want to use a less

loaded term with the masses of people

now that doesn't necessarily mean you

already know what they want you will

discover what they want by actually

drawing a base of contact with them and

drawing support from them and and

reaching out to them and media is

probably the most important part of that

media was the foundation of for example

the russian bolshevik party medium was

the foundation probably of every

alternative

revolutionary or

third party in the history of uh in

history of the world

so

i so like i mean like

i've done conversations like this before

so

it's so strange just watching you hate

watch you talk so much like you say so

much and so little at the same time so

like boiling down everything that you

said before about how when you engage in

your political practices you will

discover what the people want is a

direct contradiction to what you said

earlier when you said and i quote people

want something different that's not

being represented by the establishment

how do you know people truly want

something that's not being represented

by the establishment if you don't even

know what they want yet and part of it

because that's illogical just because i

i can know what i just thought

i just said the one minutes back and

forth destiny yeah what i said is not

illogical i'm just literally following

and i'm writing in quotes like your very

own statements i guess if you want to

address that contradiction then go how

can you know yeah i'll address something

different that's not being represented

by the establishment but then go on and

admit i don't know what people want yeah

let's address that as i do let's let's

address it like again you haven't even

described me like what's missing yeah

destiny destiny people that they don't

destiny it's very simple logic you can

know what people don't want without

knowing exactly what they want

positively i for example if someone

doesn't want to eat [ __ ] you don't know

what their favorite food is they just

don't want to eat the [ __ ]

you just said something completely

stupid and illogical

if people don't want to eat the [ __ ]

then why did a record number of people

vote for in the last election

because there's a steaming pile of

diarrhea in their view that was the

alternative to that [ __ ]

yeah but they could have just not voted

you have some of the most engaged voters

in the history presidential yeah because

it was a referendum on trump now you're

here and you can't pass bills your

government doesn't even [ __ ] work

you're here now it works it was a

referendum on trump you voted out trump

here you are the government the

government you know what government's

about right it's not about to own the

other side it's actually about to get

things done our government can't get

things done it we can't even pass a

basic [ __ ] infrastructure bill you

won that yeah there was a record number

turnout i was advocating for people to

not vote to boycott the vote well you

got biden in power here our government

is and it doesn't even [ __ ] work what

have you won destiny what have you won

the government is not about getting

things done what's it about

the government's job is to represent the

will of the people so okay how is the

will of the people being represented

right now because this country is

historically divided and polarized in

ways that it probably never has so how

is it being

represented

what how is the will of the people being

represented right now the will of the

people is being represented right now

because half of americans don't agree

with the other half on what should

happen so the government is having a

really hard time getting anything done

but that's what you would expect from a

government that is representing the

democratic interests of the people this

country is legitimately divided biden

got more votes than any president u.s

history and trump was number two so

obviously there's going to be a

difficult time if the government's power

is logically acceptable so to you the

only the only site that's going to be a

really hard time for the government

so the only site at which the will of

the people can ever find representation

is in the current established options

they have on the shelves there's not a

possibility for a different product in

your view it's only what's on the shelf

it would be impossible and you can claim

this

and all you've told me is you're gonna

try to moreover you can you can claim

this with absolute certainty somehow

never said that

it is possible that in the future there

might be conditions that arise destiny i

need you to understand but the problem

is

both in our media and our finances and

in our government and in everybody's

destiny logically speaking for a third

party to rise up yeah maybe you need to

know something about like

party even should you haven't even given

me like positions like all when i asked

you like what could a third party offer

that the primary two can your your

response was like uh how are we going to

address the fourth industrial revolution

and rabbit you said you would give me a

yang answer that's not telling you

that's not a policy position that's not

like hold on hold on hold on like some

vague [ __ ] that you could talk about

hold on i'm

destiny there are plenty of bright

policymakers who want to be given a

platform in this third party i confess i

am not a policymaker obviously broad

narratives are what's going to define

entirely new parties yeah when i'm

saying the something as vague as the

fourth industrial revolution i am

talking about a very broad issue that

has to be addressed in an equally broad

way and politically speaking now if it

was just a matter of one or two paula

it's not a matter of one or two policies

it's not a matter of three policies or

four policies it's a matter of a whole

multiplicity of polities which are only

unified by these broad

uh narratives or whatever these broad

so-called word salads you're giving if

it was just the sum total of opposing

policy prescriptions obviously um

we wouldn't be talking about anything

but it stands right now that we can see

that there actually is a certain reason

why some policies are able to make it

and others don't policies which don't

threaten the special interests

have a chance policies which threaten

the current special interests don't have

a chance so it's almost as simple as

that the two parties are bought out by

special interests

um that's a whole other conversation if

you want to have that but so like when

you say like a whole multiplicity of

policies that are painted by this broad

narrative are what you're talking about

how do you then connect with earlier you

were saying poor people are like about

like meat and potatoes issues are you

going to have this multiplicity of you

know political

uh discussion with them you're going to

bring this like broad thing of new

policies like every poor person yeah

broad broad hold on broad

hold on broad narratives are what give

expression to people's belief that they

can actually address their meat and

potatoes concerns politically so i don't

know what you're trying to do broad

narrative that isn't encompassed by one

of the two political parties no what no

what is it what is a unique broad

narrative you're asking for what is

unique broad narrative sure one of them

is um the current political system is

rigged and it serves the interests of

special interests and not the people if

we want to even have the ability to give

political representation to the will of

the people we need a third party that's

not um already captured by these

entrenched uh established interests any

special interests yeah so literally like

both political parties say this all the

time the current political system is

written like the democrat the republican

party right now believes the election

was stolen trump constantly said about

how the current political system is

rigged bernie sanders was a huge

candidate he said that parts of the

political system are written the justice

democrats talk about all that do they

talk about the two-party system

talks

do they talk about the two-party system

what about the two-party system is that

something they talk about

uh no so you're well that's something

i'm talking about your broad narrative

that establishes your third party is

there should be third parties

yeah this would be a third party i can't

beat that one

there should be a third party before i

guess okay hold on destiny let me ask

you a question what is democracy

uh

that's a really broad what is the

content of democracy just quickly what's

the content of democracy

uh ideally it's some group of people

whose will is being represented in some

way okay so what is that what does that

look like concretely

democracy on its own doesn't look like

anything i mean we could talk about like

a representative okay we could talk

about like well if if if my position is

if my position is that a third party is

the only manner by which american

democracy can be um

restored or built or revived however you

want to phrase it then obviously i don't

it's the burden is not upon me to say

like oh this is specifically the issue

that they have to focus upon but

there are many bright ideas there are

many ideas that people have i personally

think that we should be looking at the

early 20th century and late 19th century

issue of land reform which was actually

what formed the foundation

inadvertently at least of the new deal

democrats although they didn't pursue

direct land reform themselves it

actually had influence on the

housing reforms

and the housing legislation

that eventually would get passed

especially if i recall correctly in the

post-war era right i don't care what

policies americans supported 100 years

ago i'm sorry i don't think that's

politically relevant right now no i

actually think it is relevant because i

i am also a political theorist and a

theorist so i don't know we don't have

to get in the nitty-gritty

but american but no but

but but land reform is

probably the most decisive um

uh

issue or policy that actually leads to

political change historically okay where

how do you know that most people care

about this then where do you find that

support at well because if you theorize

politically the basic social contract

between a given state and its people

lies in a state being able to give its

people some kind of economic and i don't

mean this in like the loaded uh leftist

sense some kind of means of production

just in the sense of like a solid

economic basis with which they can

actually engage in economic activity so

governments if you look at almost any

state in history found its basis upon

this type of land grants or or you know

giving titles of nobility and feudalism

or during you know

the time of the french revolution

especially

with napoleon i don't want to get to in

the nitty-gritty of this but yeah land

reform is a linchpin of political change

and uh of it's the foundation of states

whether it's directly phrased as land

reform or not like the stability of the

american state in the post-war era was

sustained by for example those post new

deal uh housing policies and uh things

like that which gave americans like the

minimum of a stable economic uh

livelihood

can you give me an example of what is

what do you mean by land reform what

time what kind of land reform are we

talking about

well today that could obviously either

be um

actual land reform of giving people

actual like just straight land and space

it could be something focused on housing

like what they're doing in china they're

giving giving grants of people to sink

own

single uh home apartments when you say

giving people land you mean we're going

to do plots in montana whereas they're

giving that people over california hope

they move out there or what do you mean

by giving people land what happens

giving people some kind of means of

having like a minimal economic it could

even be ubi i you know it could be a lot

of things but it has the ideas

it has to function as the equivalent to

what land reforms have historically

functioned as politically

we have 30 minutes left

before this is over

i think dead forgiveness is is an

important thing too

do you have a hearing problem

go ahead dylan

okay thank you

so

for the next 30 minutes if you have any

points you want to get in now would be

the time to get them in i'm just telling

you this now so afterwards you're not

like [ __ ] i wanted to say this so if

there's anything in the back of your

pocket that you have to bring up and you

want to bring up yeah now would be the

time okay you leaving so you guys get

you guys want to say hi to steven yeah

hi steven

hi what's up

i'm just chilling you like my outfit i'm

a vampire

nice looks awesome thanks

i just want to say she a third party

vampire or democrat vampire i'm um spike

from buffy the vampire slayer so

whatever he's british so he doesn't

participate in american politics ah

boris johnson vampire okay that's nice

they're kind of like matching costumes

because it's a [ __ ] time vampire over

here right i'm sorry

you can continue you've got 30 minutes i

don't i don't yeah so like i i don't

know like uh i

this is every third party like debate

ever like every time it's like that our

thing is going to come and it's the

third party that represents the

interests of the people that aren't

being represented but i don't really

know what those interests are and i was

like okay well like what what like i'm

not asking for specific policies we're

just like broadly speaking like what the

[ __ ] are we even well what about like

land reform from the 19th century and

it's like no i i said there could be

like what the [ __ ] does that mean right

like you're basically at the end of the

day like and this is the problem with

third parties the problem is that the

democratic party and the republican

party are incredibly broad they

encompass a lot of different political

ideology when you can go all the way

left and find somebody like aoc or

bernie sanders and then all the way

right and find somebody like manchester

cinema in the same political party it's

going to be really difficult for a third

party to find space in there now i'm not

saying it's impossible there might be a

third party that makes the case we come

up and like hey you know what here are

some issues that people really care

about and nobody's talking about them

and we're going to come we're going to

hammer these issues and we're going to

start to gain political power doing it

but you haven't presented me any of

those issues talking about stuff that

happened in the 1900s or trying to talk

about stuff that uh is happening in

china like that's a good thing to sell

to the american people like these are

just not issues they're going to win

with like the meat and potatoes poor

people that you think aren't voting

because they don't have a third party to

represent them yeah i think this whole

debate really boils down to destiny's

inability to look beyond the appearance

of things and actually think about what

is the real essence behind these things

like why is it that americans vote in

the way they do why is it for example

you just mentioned this americans have a

negative view of china is that because

they necessarily do or is it because of

a deeper and more fundamental reason but

regardless of the fact i think it can be

summed up

simply and neatly as this

um

a we are supposed to have a government

buy for and of the people this is the

standard to which we are supposed to

hold the current american government as

well as the current so-called

representatives of the american people

my only claim is that they don't satisfy

the criterion of a government by for and

of the people which works on behalf of

the interests of the people rather than

special interests and entrenched

interests and insular establishments

which claim to represent the objective

facts and the truth and the will of the

people but in actual fact and in actual

reality utterly failed to do that just

going off of the inability to get out

widespread voter turnout with the

exception of these single you know issue

referendums like the referendum on trump

but even then turnout

wasn't really that impressive as far as

a democracy is concerned maybe relative

to america it's impressive but if for a

so-called democracy it's really not that

impressive

but i mean the problem is you haven't

demonstrated like by for and of the

people none of these things describe

third parties right now you don't have

any third parties by the people they're

all there well that's

the difference between me and you is

that you have the burden of defending

the people who now do claim to represent

the will of the people all i'm saying is

i want to fight for an alternate i want

people to look at

things like movement or now i think it's

no longer moving it's the people's party

right now look at big tent broad

coalition

parties that are trying to build third

parties in this country

and um

you know and pre and and fight and build

and don't be afraid to risk building

those alternatives now the reason a

single third party like that in the

united states that you'd be comfortable

putting money on getting a single

federal seat or two federal seats well

no because it's not a matter of a gamble

this is actually a point in politics

which this is all a gamble you admitted

earlier so destiny this is the this is

the single argument you have

consistently been unable to respond to i

doubt you're going to be able to respond

to what i'm saying you just keep running

away from him i'm writing it down go

ahead you are treating this reality as a

matter of just this pure external

objective

thing outside of our will i am saying

there is a moment in politics in which

actual will becomes decisive i am not

saying that on its own

there's this party that's gonna make it

we have to fight to make it that way

because this is a moment that demands

our actual will our actual intervention

why would i even be here why would i

even be live why would i even be talking

about this if i didn't think people

actually have to

do something and actually have the will

to um fight for this if i thought it was

just gonna happen on its own i wouldn't

even be streaming right now destiny

can you summarize that

yeah um i'm not saying something's just

going to happen on its own spontaneously

i am actually using my platform to fight

for this alternative to convince people

specifically politically conscientious

and educated people with spare time to

care about politics

to do this right they haven't done it

yet can you you say i'm not responsible

can you state this in the form of an

argument what is the argument here

um can you demonstrate i didn't make an

argument if you want to do that game

i'm not trying to play a game so this is

what you said you're treating this

reality as a matter of pure external

yeah because you're asking like what

you're asking like

you're asking what current third party

you just asked destiny

destiny hear okay okay can we stop

really i didn't hear what the question

was so jesse can you restate the

question so we can have house respond to

the question i i don't know what the

argument is i'm supposed to respond to

that there's gonna be some magical

shonen s naruto figure that's gonna come

up that we're all going to put our will

behind like you can't like

you just you just avoided the argument

again

yeah you you just you're it's not

clicking for you

destiny

destiny

it's not clicking for you it's just not

clicking for you just said again sorry

oh oh it's repeated you weren't you you

just said oh destiny's that you're

really angry you need to chill you just

said destiny it's okay it's just the

internet destiny you just said a naruto

guy is going to appear out of nowhere

you just made the argument again the

straw man that i'm saying something is

just going to happen out there

you literally ignore and dodge the

argument what i'm literally saying is no

i'm not saying something is just

magically going to happen i'm advocating

people to do things

to actually make it happen right so if

you are on the end of this saying no i'm

advocating for this i want to intervene

i want to have some sort of intervention

i'm going to fight to make this what are

you fighting for and when your answer to

what are you fighting for is well i'm

gonna ask people and find out like

you're you're putting a car before the

horse you're already no no i'm fighting

for a have some healing i am fighting

for an alternative you're offering it i

don't even know other than these like

empty platitudes like the fourth

industrial revolution and the

dialectical materialistic way of

analyzing the language yeah you're using

words you don't understand nobody cares

about this yeah but no american

especially no meat potatoes poor voting

american gives a [ __ ] about anything but

it's it's not their job

what the [ __ ] you're talking

if you were to come here and you were

like you know what i think that there

are these three or four things none of

these political parties are talking

about this [ __ ] we need to do something

instead you literally admitted earlier

the biggest point for why your third

party is arguing something that nobody

else is arguing that biggest point was

that they were arguing in favor of a

third party that's it that was the most

unique thing about a third party is that

they want a third party to exist when

you're actually willing to admit that

foundational epistemic circularity if

your entire justification were existing

it's like what the [ __ ] is even the

point of what you're doing right that's

like saying like hey you've got two

teams in basketball we should have a

third team why because nobody else is

advocating for a third team well what's

that third team going to do advocate for

itself to exist okay no no yeah let me

be very clear so destiny it's not the

job of ordinary people to care about all

this complex stuff i am but for someone

who like goes on stream and acts like

they're like this extremely politically

informed person and this like smart guy

it is actually your job to sit the [ __ ]

down and actually try to think this

through a little bit you can't feign

ignorance and pretend to be some [ __ ]

[ __ ] league of legends gamer which

you are admittedly but you're pretending

to be the contrary so you have to bear

with me and not you know oh daryl just

because you don't like don't know these

theories and you're just an ignorant

person

it's not really an excuse now second of

all destiny um my position has been very

clear you're saying oh all you're

advocating is for a third party yeah but

for why because policies can't even be

passed which go against the interests of

special interests party can't pass them

yeah but i think a third party can

what's the point destiny dylan dylan can

you shut this guy up am i talking or no

i just told him yeah destiny destiny my

whole position is a third party can

actually give representation enter into

contact with the american people put

forward policies and proposals that are

going to work for the interests of the

american people and there's not going to

be special interest or captured

entrenched established interests which

are going to stop them or prevent them

okay now as far as what exactly that's

going to look like what you're demanding

of me is an absurdity you're basically

saying i should single-handedly draft

every single detailed policy proposal of

this third party without actually

let him finish destiny yeah

he's he's extremely immature it's okay

uh he's used to league of legends but

anyway um

destiny you're basically trying to say

that i need to personally you know draft

these points but all i'm just you're

saying oh it's so stupid that you're

just saying there should just be a third

party but that's just because we know

the current two parties can't give

expression to what the american people

want not on the basis of the merit of

these ideas and and the policies but

because of these external

overgrowths on our american democracy

when i'm saying i want a third party all

i'm effectively advocating for is

american democracy i'm advocating for

democracy now i don't claim to know what

exactly the result of that democracy is

going to be but i think a third party is

the minimal standard by which such a

democracy can be possible

right now i don't think we're living in

a in a democracy i think we're living in

uh a political system that is captured

by special interests and an

establishment which doesn't represent

the interests of the american people

it's as simple as that

i i hope in the future if we ever do a

debate i really want to go like line by

line um i like i don't have anything i

really stay against you you're it's like

the vlog strat not even actually well

she's better this you're you're saying

so much that is really just devoid of

content okay like this idea of like i'm

advocating for democracy yeah guess who

else says that republicans and democrats

right this doesn't mean anything um you

know when you talk about like oh i don't

want a third party just for writing

earlier you literally admitted the whole

thing the whole the most unique thing

you were advocating for in a third party

was the existence of a third why you

literally said it right what was my

reasoning attention to the conversation

yeah what was my reasoning if you if you

want to actually advocate for things and

you want to actually win people over

okay and you want to have this broad

then you need to find issues because

this is where these political moments

start these political moments don't

start with some like random person

saying i'm gonna make a third party they

usually start with some problem that

neither like or or not even neither that

no entity is addressing at that point in

time this is where people on the ground

these are these moments of action where

people gain a great deal of political

power is when these moments come up and

there is nobody offering a solution any

of these problems for you to sit here

and say you're demanding that i fix

everything that i give the perfect

utility i'm not saying that at all i

just want like a couple broad strokes

that don't involve something from the

[ __ ] 19th century or don't involve

you using the terms dialectical

materialism and mean potatoes issues and

the same [ __ ] paragraph explanation

it doesn't make any sense

i'll explain the relationship that you

have you should be able to have some

like broad issues some broad narrative

something you're pushing that people

want and you need to be able to defend

it if that's too much for you then

you're basically asking me to attack a

utopian third party that doesn't exist

that might exist at some point in the

future that you're asking people to

suffer real material harm for right now

to try to bring it into existence so one

two the first thing you're saying you

think it's somehow a contradiction

between talking about dialectical

materialism and meat and potatoes issues

when the whole point of dialectical

materialism is to be able to discover

what meat and potatoes issues are now

that it takes a great amount of

intelligence to discover

simple things is like it's it's

basically like it's like almost an axiom

of computers like that's how [ __ ]

computers work you use a lot to get a

little it takes a lot it takes a lot of

complexity to discover simple things i

don't know like why you're acting like

it's such a huge contradiction but

regardless of that to actually address

what you said

um

you know like i said you're saying that

uh oh everyone talks about american

democracy um across the aisle well all

you're doing here is meta-narrativizing

the whole debate and like complaining

about not being able to go point by

point why don't you actually talk about

the content of what they mean by

american boxes when i say we don't have

current american democracy i mean

regardless of what the american people

want even if i ideologically disagree

with it it can't get passed because

there is an institutional and

establishment impediment uh the special

interests and so on and so on now if

they mean oh we're just fighting for

democracy like what do they mean by that

because clearly i mean something

radically uh different now you're saying

oh what is it you're risking for

americans to suffer so much material

harm for

um i think it's very clear

that

again you haven't addressed the argument

about the issue of scale

right now

if the republicans win more people may

be harmed and

that's the argument you may make but

when you introduce the factor of time

and scale like

generations from now or even 10 years

from now or 20 years from now

your argument collapses what if

by not doing something now

it should be wrapping up soon yeah

um

50 minutes

yeah

what if uh by not doing something now

you're risking uh so much for the future

you know you're meta-narrativizing

saying oh this is just like vosh and

this is just like this

but you can you can uh

stop cutting them off you can really

just focus on the actual content of the

argument you say oh you haven't said

much there's no content to your argument

you're just you're uttering so much

crazy right yeah then i accept yours if

you if listen you can say there's no

content to my argument uh in which case

i'll say you just basically conceded to

me because okay so here's the question

you're just refusing to engage with

anything i've said round this out a

little bit okay do you want people today

to risk suffering real material harm for

a third-party gamble in the future which

people the people who don't vote on

behalf of averting their own material

do you want them to divert their vote to

a third party who are they on whose

behalf are they voting

they're not asking you

what are they voting for answer my

question

you're making it seem like you're making

it seem like i'm telling like a homeless

guy oh no don't vote for the democrats

and make your life better those guys

those people who are suffering don't

vote

the people you're talking about who are

going to be harmed don't vote

to

destiny

all i'm at let's try this again okay

this might be our next 15 minutes i

don't know if you'll ever answer this my

question is do you want people to suffer

real material harm for a third party

gamble in the future so telling somebody

who would vote one party to divert to a

third party and potentially suffer real

material harm for a gamble of a third

party in the future

um people are going to serve suffer

regardless that's what i was saying

okay so i i i reject the framing of your

question people are going to suffer

either way i know that without you think

that the democratic party and the

republican party are making the same

offers the exact same material offers to

the american public in the long term it

doesn't matter

i'm not why do you keep you do you see

how you're dodgy as [ __ ] on all of them

because i reject the framing of your

question you're making it seem like

right now is the only um meaningful side

you go to vote right now that moment of

voting is a moment that exists in

history okay and one and one year later

not what destiny not a moment later but

like

almost a year later we still don't have

an infrastructure bill

so it's not in the moment

you don't vote just for right now

you haven't even passed the bill that's

going to affect these people's lives

okay how are people's lives going to be

affected bill passes are you going to

completely change your position on all

this holy [ __ ] no i'm not because

they can't even pass the trimmed down

shitty subpar so-called infrastructure

build that we have now

god god knows the one they're gonna be

able to pass and by that time it's not

even an uh it doesn't even effectively

carry out what it it originally intended

to

if the bill was like 1.5 trillion

dollars you think that's worthless to

the american public

in the long term there's nothing

impressive about

yeah there's nothing yeah well okay you

so destiny so you want to you want to

use the same standards for both of us if

i ask you a yes or no question you can

only do yes or no and you can't reject

it yes or no but just at least engage

with not like it doesn't even matter the

future is long like it doesn't matter i

refuse to reject you hold on hold on

hold on the infrastructure bill there is

absolutely nothing impressive

about a government passing a 1.5 and

it's not going to be 1.5 trillion a 1.5

trillion dollar infrastructure bill

given the sorry just the

absolutely sorry state of american

infrastructure in regards to like the

passing of time if you look at china's

infrastructure even the infrastructure

in certain european countries it

american infrastructure is absolutely

laughable so this idea that like this

watered-down bill is going to be somehow

impressive or a hallmark of why someone

had to go out and vote for biden is this

an extreme cope and also

i don't see why trump wouldn't have also

maybe uh conjured up some kind of

infrastructure bill to pass maybe he

would have had his own who knows i mean

i don't even see what your argument is

here i i like how you ask

you both have been very good when it

comes to moderating yourself so i gotta

go use the bathroom and since you've

both been so well behaved i think you

can deal with that destiny it's your

turn okay you said you were gonna ask me

a yes or no question and you just no i

didn't you said you said uh you don't

you agreed with me that you don't have

to answer yes or no questions because

you can reject yeah you can ask me a

question i'll answer it oh really

opportunity to ramble no i thought what

you said is oh you don't have to ask me

a yes or no question but at least

address the substance of my argument

isn't that ad verbatim what you just

said

oh yeah but you made it sound like you

were about to ask me a question so shut

the [ __ ] up dude you literally

i literally quoted you ad verbatim

saying you didn't want me to ask you an

uh yes or no question

you so earlier you believe that um who

is this guy that is trying

i'm a mod i'm gonna just make sure yeah

oh so destiny maybe wipe a towel off

your forehead you seem really sweaty and

nervous just letting you know i'm

getting my dude thanks though

um so i i the thing is i just i can't

argue against like the the nirvana third

party where you've given me no positions

you've given me no reason to think it's

gonna succeed you're telling people to

suffer real material harms right now or

risk real material harms right now um to

vote for a hypothetical third party in

the future um or and then furthermore

you're going to make the argument that

the democrats and the republicans are

materially offering the same thing to

the american public right now if trump

would have passed an infrastructure bill

like this why wouldn't he have pushed

for that more rather than the tax reform

that just benefited the wealthiest

americans he got one major bill through

and that was it

um that's like saying why didn't obama

push for an infrastructure bill because

as the passage of time changes the

policy prerogatives change

obama's the worst example because he

pushed for the aca that was his big

legislation he didn't push for an

infrastructure bill

because he because he could only do one

thing

trump trump did talk about the sorry

state of america it was like a political

what did he do what was his legislative

priority what did he pass maybe he would

have after 20 years maybe he would have

after 2020 you have one thing all i'm

saying is i don't know maybe he would

have maybe he wouldn't have but you

don't know you don't you don't know for

certain whether trump would have or

would have not rich of you to use the

argument you don't know for certain when

you're advocating people to switch their

vote from two confirmed parties to a

hypothetical third party in the future

for something that might be good i'm

actually i'm actually not really just

saying people should vote for the third

party i'm saying people should focus

people who have the time to care about

politics actively like your listeners

and and even you yourself

right you sit on your ass all day and

talk about [ __ ] politics you don't

represent my ass all day you don't but

okay regardless you don't represent the

majority of people you your life is

mostly focused around talking about

literally the issues that i advocate for

are literally democratic issues who

currently yeah but but

use my issues but because because

destiny because you're not like someone

who's focused on like the way you make a

living is about politics okay so if if

your life can be dedicated to politics

all i'm saying is focus your energies

and your dedication on building a third

party no why the [ __ ] would i focus on a

third party when i don't know any third

parties that are talking about the

issues that i think most americans care

about you should certainly well you

should you should there there are enough

like-minded people who agree that they

can't get what they seek to get done

through the current two parties and

those people should get together an

example of any of those issues

of what issues

what are things that you [ __ ] i have to

scroll like okay there's there's a few

there's okay there's a few there's a few

there's a few there's um debt

forgiveness that's probably the biggest

one that i think can unite people across

the aisle it's the issue of big tech

monopolies and big tech uh censorship

um which is you know i guess a cultural

issue that people think people are

united on issues like debt forgiveness

yeah i think that forgiveness can i

think that forgiveness can unite this

country definitely

okay um yeah

i think i think the question is do you

mean all debt or do you mean like

just student loans i i think well there

is a massive issue of just american

people being in debt right now and um

financial reform things of that nature

of housing reform that there's um

there we have a housing crisis in this

country right and i don't see how the

democrats or the republicans can address

that crisis in meaningful ways again

because the crisis is very complicated

oh yeah it's it's very complicated

because everything is just an objective

reality except when i decided to keep

saying

because because because everything

everything can be explained by me

deferring to other causes except when i

sit on and tell people they have to go

vote for biden at that moment at

that moment a particular cause so for

instance we can talk about housing being

a complex issue housing is complicated

primarily because the people that live

in a certain district are already ultra

privileged being in houses so in order

to uproot them you necessarily have have

to act in an undemocratic fashion to do

it which is something that's very

difficult to do in the united states

that's why when you take votes in areas

about like hey like should we expand

like multi-family housing or should we

open like a [ __ ] ton of apartment

buildings well who are the people that

are most likely to vote in that area

it's not gonna be the transient

millennials that come in and out of work

jobs it's going to be people that aren't

working

in that area and when you're talking

about voting for expanding housing in

those areas guess who that hurts the

most it hurts the most entrenched voters

that are the most likely to show up to

the polls they're the most likely to go

to their city council meetings or the

most likely to stay there for long

periods of time that's what makes that

issue like complicated okay rap god calm

down

rap god conversation

just because you've come to this

conversation with zero understanding of

any of the policies you're talking about

please don't project it on me this

conversation could have been entirely

interesting in like 50 different ways

just because you're utterly clueless on

everything except for these weird

[ __ ] phrases that have to do with

[ __ ] dialectic materialism or

whatever philosophy to talk about

doesn't mean that i came here clueless

to argue okay simmer down rap god rap

god simmer down like you are calm down

calm down i'm on the ground talking

about listen

we're not on eight mile we're on twitch

okay so calm down i have to talk fast

but listen you have to chill you have to

chill if you want there you go if you

want if you're interested in dialectical

materialism uh dm me and i'll set up i

can educate you and you can be my

student so i don't know why you keep

bringing it up you seem interested in

the ideas of dialectical materialism

yeah one sec and uh it should be like

five minutes

and uh

regard and you said okay i agree that

the housing crisis obviously it's

complex but

can the way we address like is the

inability for us to address it because

of that complexity is what i reject yes

no i reject that i fundamentally reject

the third party then tell me how you

would go about doing it then i'll wait

yeah a third party can have a general

housing reform whose main linchpin whose

main policy prerogative is to make sure

americans can have affordable housing

and it can do that at the federal level

to ensure that at these local levels and

with all these differences between for

example high housing prices and these

issues of zoning can be addressed like

for example i know you don't like me

mentioning china but when china engages

in five-year plans for example i'm not

saying we're going to have our own but

it's just a broad policy prerogative it

does take into account the various local

realities and complexities that make it

impossible to just pass one bill that's

going to be a catch-all to solve like

the whole of the geographic and

demographic issues surrounding housing

reform so i don't see like how your

argument is relevant the fact that we

have a housing crisis in this country

isn't only because

um

uh the reasons you mentioned or because

like oh yeah uh it's only about

millennials who want to move to big

cities it's it's a it's about people who

don't have a

clear future of being able to have their

own homes and raise their own families

dylan you think this is just like it's

like the perfect third party like debate

like you just you speak in these like

useless empty platitudes like well the

way that you do it is by passing a bill

that takes into account all those

complexities wow just okay so how how

are the democrats i just couldn't think

of that just do a big building

so you're saying the housing crisis

cannot be solved wait

i gave you an interrupt time to speak

jessie's gonna have his interrupted time

speaking then you're both going to do

outros because we're going to wrap up

uninterrupted okay so destiny um i just

want to say that i also support really

huge complex bills that just solve all

the complex issues and i think those

bills are awesome i just want to be i

just want to make my position known on

that okay that's all i got okay

yes it is glitching out into the mix

outros i'll just do my outro

yep we're good okay yeah as an outro i'm

just going to address the point i never

said that you're going to be able to uh

create a build that's going to solve all

problems all i'm doing is saying one of

the reasons we have housing crisis in

this country or at least one of the

reasons that the current political

establishment is inept in being able to

solve that crisis is because it's

captured by special interests like the

real estate mughals and oligarchs and

and financial institutions and things

like blackrock and a third party isn't

going to be handicapped by those special

interests in being able to address the

housing crisis so that's just one

example of what i'm where i'm coming

from what i'm talking about this a third

party isn't a guarantee all it means is

you have a [ __ ] chance i have never

preached any guarantee whatsoever all

i've advocated for is a god damn

fighting chance for the american people

that's all okay destiny and then we'll

have the vote uh the judges will vote

um when you talk to people about third

parties usually they're pie in the sky

dreams people don't have a good

understanding of how the government

works of how policies work of why some

of these issues are so complicated i can

empathize i do the same way i was a big

ron paul supporter abolish the fed and

all that [ __ ] when i was a freshman in

college uh it's really cool to think

that there are these really complicated

issues that can just be solved with one

sweeping you know federal legislative

initiative but unfortunately as you grow

older and you look at why things are the

way they are you realize these issues

are really complicated they involve you

know multiple people fighting on

multiple sides of issues in order to get

like things done slowly over time that's

how the american system is built and so

long as we genuinely remain divided as

americans on a lot of these issues the

government will necessarily remain slow

moving when it comes to solving these

issues we don't all agree on how to

solve these issues the same way in the

united states that's why there's such a

polarization of the parties that's why

there's so much gridlock in congress and

hopefully in the future this changes but

i know for a fact that the thing that

won't change it is [ __ ] third parties

okay dylan i actually have to go so

do so i don't really care about the

belt or whatever so

we good

uh if you would like to leave you can

leave okay for sure yeah see you later

bye-bye

so