Destiny gets KO'd by a TANKIE

would you like to introduce yourselves

i am destiny the reigning hippy dippy

belt champion i slaughtered my last

opponent with alacrity so hard that i

believe that they and their crew left

crying

and i'm here to do the same once more to

defend the belt against this horrible

tanky scourge while defending my boys

the democratic party in the united

states of america that's what i'm here

to do today

okay and now we're going to throw it

over to

infrared would you like to introduce

yourself

amaz from infrared

i am here i don't know what a hippie

dippy is i don't know what a belt is i

don't know anything about that i am here

to prove

marxism leninism in the age of

multi-polarity in the post-covered world

i am here to debunk the lies about the

so-called uh democratic party there's

nothing democratic about it i'm here to

debunk the idea that the establishment

is the only bet and the only choice we

have i'm here to defend the idea of a

big tenth third party

and let me tell you something i don't

intend on losing

happy to have you both here and i would

like to thank the production staff for

the amazing titan trons and billy the

fridge the internet legend for the

amazing intros for both of them now

uh i am going to state the rules quickly

so

uh you will both have a short intro

period where you can give your basic

thoughts on the topic in an outro period

which will be uninterrupted then you'll

have an open period where you too can go

back and forth i will not be giving my

opinions on this debate if i speak up i

am only moderating and that is the only

time when you're gonna really need to

quiet down now the purpose of this of

course is for you to debate the topic

should

uh americans vote for the democratic

party

and if there's any more questions about

rules or regulations the only last thing

i could say is that afterwards of course

a three-judge panel will decide who gets

the championship felt mailed to them

after this debate so

is everybody ready

as ready as we'll ever be

wonderful so since infrared is the

challenger for the belt i will give him

uh first word on should people vote for

the democratic party

all right so to begin

hold on wait someone's at the door you

need sick

okay destiny

i

hi

how's it going

we're going great hello

how are you guys doing

doing good great

what's the question

should people vote for democrats

definitely not definitely not

okay if that's the intro destiny now you

can start oh that was the intro i'll do

my intro i'll do my intro

we should not vote for democrats because

at the end of the day

democrats are only another arm of the uh

corporate oligarchy they are further

they're furthering the imperialist wars

they are crippling more americans into

debt anything you're saying mike is like

really like

fucking up is it too loud

yeah it's like the game is like immense

all right can you hear me now

yes

the democratic party is uh furthering

the crippling of the american public

they're further indebting them they're

driving them into more driving us into

more imperialist wars

they are

causing us to not have health care not

have free public tuition

they're preventing all of the basic

necessities we need to have

to have a prosperous society yet they're

all running under the guise of

supporting these things and they're you

know sheepdogging more people into the

democratic party in an effort to co-opt

the movement and at the end of the day

they only further isolate people from

actually achieving any of these goals so

uh you know

i think uh if you look at the actual

policies that have been failed to have

been passed but have been supported by

different candidates you can see that

you know they've lied time and time

again about the things that they say

they support

and even then you know some of the

things that they do say they support

from the get-go such as

wars with taiwan or wars with china over

taiwan or supporting public options that

will only further decimate the

healthcare industry

the health care plan in this country to

guarantee universal health care to all

people

it's only going to hurt more americans

and that that's what they do

okay destiny your intro statement

voting for third party is a waste of

time none of them have a shot at making

it anywhere the only thing that's good

for third parties is getting twitter

clout or having fun debates i guess on

twitch or

youtube if you truly want to support

things like a more robust economy that

supports workers at the bottom uh

healthcare that works for everybody not

just people who can afford the best

private insurance um relatively less

hawkish foreign policy people that

support things around medical science so

for instance stuff related to vaccines

or the coronavirus if you want to

support people's right to vote if you

want to support the ability for unions

to exist and if you want to support a

party that believes in climate change i

think that it's probably more important

to support the democratic party than to

throw away your vote on some mimi third

party that doesn't have a snowball's

chance in hell of holding any effective

office i think that if third parties

really wanted to build real power in

this country they would spend more time

actually winning local elections to

build real support for their movement

instead of just doing this like hail

mary for the presidency every year where

they can raise some money have

absolutely no effective change and then

write a bunch of books later on about

the failures of their parties and all

the excuses they make for it

uh and yeah that's what we're here to

talk about today i guess okay it is now

open dialogue you two are free to go

back and forth you maybe again so i

think destiny begins from the

presupposition that well the democrats

are the only ones who support this this

and that and that no one else actually

has a chance i'm curious to know why

destiny thinks he knows a third party is

actually not possible given the history

of the united states the republicans and

democrats haven't always existed and

there's actually a precedent in

monumental historical shifts political

shifts within the united states

yeah yeah and historical shifts within

the united states

third parties and alternative parties to

the status quo do happen in the history

of the united states um shifts in the

even the political alignment of parties

happen in these kinds of uh you know

decisive historical moments and

i think you would really have to be a

complete you know either a liar or

someone who's burying their head under

the sand to deny the fact that right now

in the in this country we are facing a

decisive historical transformation a

political realignment

and um

one such moment that precisely makes an

alternative third party uh possible now

you can you know deny and dismiss that

all you want but to go out of your way

to say that a third party actually isn't

possible and that the only choice we

have is between

the republicans and the democrats i

think that's an unfounded uh assumption

so typically if political parties are

going to build their power it's not

going to be a hail mary

winning of the presidential election um

and then all of a sudden this third

political party is more popular if there

was a third party that was legitimately

gaining steam then i mean maybe there

might be talk of supporting them in the

future but i was here when people

thought libertarians could win against

obama when people supported ron paul you

know back with bush and the green party

people were talking uh there was ross

perot i mean against trump you've seen

like third party the liberty gary

johnson like there there have been all

these third party candidates that have

kind of sprung up and they can get like

what like one percent of the vote or two

percent of the vote but like ultimately

they're ineffective um you can see the

writing on the wall you're never gonna

have like a a mysterious like explosive

oh my god out of nowhere this third

party candidate wins i think that if

third parties want to build real power

they should probably focus doing it on

the city or at least state level before

they just try to make these big runs for

the presidency when most people in the

united states consider those third

parties to be a joke

okay well there's two things actually um

the first argument i'd like to point out

is that historically speaking the

emergence of the republican party was

precise you know the republican party

didn't emerge uh because you know they

were slowly winning at the local level

and then eventually no it created

because there was a discernible

um

political distinction and difference

that was within the prevailing party and

it was precisely you know by winning the

the presidency that the republican party

was boosted into um

relevance and significance historically

so historically speaking that's just not

true third parties or whatever you want

to call them alternative parties have

won historically

um on the basis of these kinds of

so-called hail marys but even if we

discount that fact i personally don't

think people should necessarily rely on

us so-called hail mary i think that a

party

does require work at local levels it

does require dedication and energy and

building foundations and infrastructure

and it requires the maturity to be able

to have a big tent third party this is

the most important part that's going to

be able to overcome you know the kind of

petty political sectarianism that you

see so common among the left and just be

able to focus on getting this third

party to win but on the other hand

if the question is about and we're

addressing this to the audience should

you vote democrat

my view is a decisive no and the reason

why um is because

you should be focusing your effort on

building a third party and even if that

means taking your energy and attention

away from these you know

congressional and uh

presidential elections you know if a

third party is going to start winning

locally that also implies a broader

information and propaganda war that

allows you to draw a line of distinction

you can't on the one hand campaign at a

local level and say oh let's vote for

this third party but on the other hand

shill for the democrats when it comes to

the national level in terms of

propaganda and optics so just to be able

to distinguish yourself enough

sufficiently even if you're just going

to focus on local levels you do have to

make a stance when it comes to these

very broad unifying political

moments

where you know american politics is

really defined at the level of the

presidential elections whether we want

to whether we like that or not just at

the level of optics information and

propaganda so if you're going to

distinguish yourself as a third party

you cannot

say oh let's vote for biden or oh let's

you know um swallow our pride and vote

for the democrats you have to take a

stance even just as a matter of optics

in those such moments

so to whomever it may concern

right and i don't think this is going to

be like the majority of the american

people right now but those who are

interested in politics young people who

do want to see changes in this country

you should focus and this is for true

for influencers such as yourself who go

on stream and claim that you know you're

interested in uh seeing all these

changes happen in this country it

doesn't matter where you fall on the

political spectrum it doesn't matter

what your specific ideology is or what

your specific views are you should be

getting on board with a big tent

focusing on trying to build a big tent a

third party and i find it especially

ironic that destiny says it's not

possible when if streamers like him

influencers like him

got the ball roam rolling

um him vows hassan and all these

streamers i mean that would that enough

would like blow out of the water all of

the other precedent attempts within the

past you know few decades to build third

parties you already have the media

infrastructure to build a political

alternative in this country like if you

are yourself a form of alternative media

destiny whether you like it or not

you're not a form of mainstream media so

it's i just find it so ironic i get a

chance to respond to things yeah go

ahead well yeah

go ahead okay i'm trying to just talk

over um so i i mean like

if we want to talk about like political

parties from 200 years ago we can um i

mean if you've got a political party

that's ready to absolutely collapse in

the united states that doesn't enjoy

like a massive amount of popularity

which the democratic and the republican

party do i mean we can do that but i

mean it took the wig party collapsing

right in like the fucking 1800s in order

for the republican party to like grow

from the ashes of that um to try to say

that like the situation is the same

today i know that a lot of people talk

like oh my god like the parties are

collapsing they're not they both enjoy

like a pretty tremendous amount of

support right now i just don't see

either of them collapsing right now now

maybe that'll change in a few years

maybe the party of trump you know maybe

we'll come out support trump as a third

party candidate who knows i mean that's

anything is possible i guess it could be

the progressive or left-wing movement in

the democratic party definitely isn't

healthy or large enough to support

somebody but maybe in the republican

party maybe we'll see somebody uh grow

out as a result of that but again like

these political realignments happen like

over 150 years ago right the democratic

republican party are like 200 years old

i think that any time you're trying to

say this is possible and you have to

reach back like two

as a millennia 100 years two like 200

years to try to point to where this has

happened before i think your argument is

already starting off on an incredibly

rocky foot um you know like politics

change the the power of the federal

government changes the way that we

consume media changes the way that these

parties exist uh two centuries um the

way these parties exist has changed like

um

just so much that i'm not willing to go

back 200 years ago and say well it

worked then so it should work now um in

terms of like if you vote on a third

party does that mean that um like you

should vote third party even if that

means losing elections in the meantime i

don't i don't like that idea because i

think that is it a very privileged

position to have there are a lot of

people that are hurting right now in the

united states that probably don't want

to gamble the next five 10 20 30 years

of their life on whatever gambit you

have for your fantasy third party that's

going to come up and rise up and destroy

the united states uh or not distributed

but destroy the us like political

parties that exist right now i think

that's a pretty selfish thing to demand

of people that are hurting right now and

need help right now

so um and then also in terms of like you

can't vote third party locally and then

presidentially vote different you

absolutely can do that local politics

are an incredibly diverse landscape of

different types of candidates that

believe in all sorts of different things

there's even more variety among

republicans and democrats at the local

level or you can support third parties

um and you might even have a better shot

doing so there are plenty of local

scenes that support for instance open

primaries where anybody can make it to

like these top two or three positions

and then you have your um city wide or

statewide vote like these things exist

there might even be more ripe areas

where third-party candidates can

flourish because the amount of money

that you need to raise is way less and

campaigning on key issues to those

geographic areas is more successful than

trying to make this huge run at the uh

presidential scene um and then even the

idea that like you can't vote

differently one way and then vote

another way for president it doesn't

make sense because we saw like on down

ballot tickets so there were for

instance a lot of republicans that would

support trump but then wouldn't support

down ballot republicans or there were a

lot of democrats that would support

biden but wouldn't support down ballot

um

democratic you know senators or

congressmen so i think you absolutely

can support third party candidates on

local levels while also supporting you

know a mainstream president or a

mainstay like one of the political party

presidents so you can increase the the

outcomes or whatever group of people

you're advocating for on the

presidential level um for the final

thing the idea that like you can you

have to take some stance as a matter of

optics once more i think it's a

privileged position to be able to wear a

political flag optically or rhetorically

rather than out of necessity like a lot

of poor people are right now for

instance that are helped by the child

tax credit that exists under biden that

probably wouldn't have come under the

republicans

or you know for diabetics that have

health insurance that wouldn't have but

they do things to the aca um or you know

for people who can feel a little bit

more secure about their future because

they were daca recipients that aren't

constantly being attacked by trump

anymore these are people that don't have

the luxury of wearing a political outfit

as like a rhetorical or optical device

but rather they rely on these political

parties to secure a safe existence in

the united states okay so i discerned

five points and uh i'm just going to

respond to each of them and i'll count

them up

my hand right so the first one um was

about

the unless you think the democratic

party is today about to collapse i'm

actually curious as to your view

on what a situation would look like

uh what would it look like for a party

to collapse because the way i see it

um

for example we're looking at an

infrastructure bill that's not

embarrassingly can't even be passed not

because of the republicans but because

of a faction of the democrats right i

mean that's just one example too the

political realignment is so profound

today

within the two constituent parties i

don't see how you could say

oh yeah that the democratic party enjoys

widespread popularity well which

democratic party because if you look at

the factions within the democratic party

it is not a unified party so i'm curious

as to which party you're referring to

because unless you can prove that

there's like a you know uh

like unifying support for the democrats

in general like regardless of the

differences within them which is a

completely based like christian cinema

and joe manchin's base is not voting for

the democrats for the same reason

that democrats elsewhere are voting for

the you know there are really specific

class demographic

differences and the reasons why people

vote democrat so i'm curious what would

it look like for a party to uh to

collapse

the second thing you said

was that there hasn't been a political

realignment uh like the one that

happened around the civil war in 200

years first of all that's just not true

right the democrats and republicans only

share continuity with those parties

historically in all but name today right

we all know that um the parties have

fundamentally changed and um if you look

at the origins of the modern democratic

party it's actually really interesting

it was because of uh initiatives like

the populist party and the farmer's

alliance in the late 19th century and

early 20th century that led

to this kind of unity between

you know the the

led to the synthesis that is the new

deal democrats which eventually would be

um you know

champion the causes of minorities and

stuff and so there's you can actually

locate two

realignments within the 20th century the

first one was the rise of the democrats

is like the party of the new deal the

second one was around the time of jfk

and beyond where the democrats

increasingly coveted the votes of

minorities

and

demographics like that instead of the

traditional working-class white base

the third thing you said and

if i've forgotten some of your points

you're gonna have to correct me or

point out like i didn't oh you didn't

respond to this the third thing i think

you mentioned was that

oh well uh you have this dream about a

third party

but

that's coming from a position of

privilege because what about harm

reduction and the thing i find so

interesting about arguments about harm

reduction is this um

this pre this assumption about the scale

of time now if you're talking about

voting individually

um for a for the democrats in order to

you know reduce even if there's still

going to be harm it'll be that much

different for that it'll make a

difference to real concrete individuals

well you're still speaking in terms of

like an abstract scale of millions of

people so if you can speak in terms of

millions of people at that scale of harm

reduction or whatever why can't you

speak in terms of time what if in the

short term people may suffer more but in

the long term you're securing a better

future what if if you don't act now and

fight for a third party alternative to

the current establishment future

generations are going to be

more profoundly harmed than the amount

of people who are going to be harmed now

so i'm interested if you can address

this issue of the scale of time

uh the fourth thing i think i heard you

mentioned i'm supposed to go point by

point so we could just have a i'll

combine the last two so you basically

said you you can still vote local and

vote for democrats at the national level

well that's true um

you know you obviously can do that and

i'm not saying oh you're morally

hypocritical or inconsistent for it but

i'm saying in terms of what would be

necessary for building a third party um

yes in terms of the sphere of the

information war and optics you can't be

shilling for the democrats at the

national level and then voting for the

uh

then then saying oh let's vote for the

third you're just tell you're not you're

telling people you're not willing to

risk

uh enough for this party you basically

don't believe in it you believe the

current options are the only ones that

really exist and you're saying oh that's

privilege to focus on optics um

because you're you know you're not

focusing on poor people and doing

charity well guess what those poor

people you're talking about are the

literally the people who don't fucking

vote so i don't know why you like if

it's about them and you're using them as

your excuse and them as your shield why

don't they vote they don't vote

overwhelmingly the people who don't vote

are not privileged people it's the

privileged people in this country who go

out and vote the most and spread the

word that people should vote

non-privileged people don't give a shit

about politics they don't believe in the

system and the establishment they think

it's the two parties are the same thing

in fact a third party would mo probably

mobilize more currently politically

apathetic voters than any other uh

political option uh on the table so this

is an absurd argument you're leveling oh

it's privileged

and then the idea that politics isn't

about information and optics politics as

i said in this country politics is only

information plus organization that's all

it is there's there's nothing more to

politics in this country but optics

slash information and organization it's

not about charity it's not about harm

reduction it's not about doing things

now so less people suffer why don't you

sign up personally destiny you should

sign up for a soup kitchen instead of

sitting on your ass streaming if you're

going to talk about oh what can i do

individually to help the most people

individually you can why don't you give

your money to charity why don't you work

for a soup kitchen you know if you want

to go down that road and act like that's

what politics is about

you know it's uh it's a complete

absurdity

okay for going forward we're gonna go

point by point we don't have like five

or ten minute statements okay can

okay

i feel like if we do that i feel like

i've lost because now i can't respond to

everything that we've said though okay

so

we will have you give a three to three

and a half minute statement then we're

going point by point past that i don't

want to have essays but is that for

naha's because he wouldn't he get

basically gescala then he would be able

to respond

well see this is the you got to draw the

line somewhere in this one sure yeah he

spoke like five minutes first okay so at

the very least i'll just i'll do my

response and then okay so in terms of

what would the situation look like for

the parties to collapse i don't know

exactly what that would look like but i

imagine it probably wouldn't look like a

record number of votes for both

presidential candidates in the history

of the united states of america um it

would probably look for like it would

look like less and less people voting or

maybe the rise of third parties and

other areas um or i don't know maybe

like an inability to fundraise or i mean

there are like signs or things where

it's like maybe some huge piece of

legislation that caused a fracture from

a party like some people could argue

that january 6 was the class of the

republican party because some people

left the republican party after that

probably not enough for it to happen but

i mean there are signs that we could

look for for collapse but whatever those

signs are we absolutely don't see them

now it's not youtube people saying that

like oh my god these parties suck

they're both the same we talk about how

the infrastructure bill can't be passed

because of democrats it's this is just

like the dumbest thing that anybody

could possibly ever say we are split 50

50 right now we are fighting for votes

49 and 50 on the democratic side we're

not fighting for any of the 50

republicans that are standing against

this piece of legislation it is not the

democrats that are preventing the bill

from being passed it is 50 republicans

plus one or two incredibly moderate or

conservative democrats that are in the

way of this infrastructure building past

to try to say that it's the same you try

to say that the democrats are are

preventing it from being passed shows

like a misunderstanding of how our

legislative bodies work um there's not a

single republican willing to come on

board with this okay well then you need

every single democrat to come on board

with it which is really hard for what is

arguably like the largest piece of

legislation it's a new deal it's a huge

piece of legislation um

in terms of again the party is not a

unified party can you provide or show

like how there's like unifying support i

mean there are huge turnouts for the

presidential election but in terms of

like unifying support i mean like a

democrat in one area is not gonna be the

same as a democrat in another area a

republican in one area is not the same

as a republican in another area but if

anything this is an argument in favor of

the um of the ability for a two-party

system to work even with dramatically

different voters across the united

states you know democrats that support

that support mansion in west virginia

aren't going to be the same as the most

left-leaning democrats that would

support somebody like aoc or democrats

that exist in california um and again

like your argument you bring up a lot of

arguments i think support my system

right you're saying like the parties

have fundamentally changed over time of

course the parties have a lot of

tenacity much like how marx said that

capitalism embeds itself into the

government and also has abilities to

perpetuate itself over long periods of

time preventing the rise of a socialist

economy um political parties also do as

well but this this entrenchment of the

political parties and their ability to

kind of like morph and change and be a

little bit flexible as people's opinions

change that's just arguments in favor of

them continuing to stand the test of

time as they've had both for like almost

like over 150 years for both of them um

when we talk about like engaging in harm

reduction um engaging in harm reduction

is literally about choosing the lesser

of multiple evils it's it's not

pontificating about an ideal third party

nirvana that might exist 20 years from

now that there's absolutely no road map

for right now in any of the upcoming

like federal level elections um i i

don't know how anybody could say that

that's a harm reduction when we talk

about like in the short term you know

people might suffer but in the long term

maybe we're securing a better future

that's just like i don't know in the

long term it could be a fascist

dictatorship that rises up after a civil

war yeah i don't know if i would trust

the democrats or left-leaning people in

this country to win a civil war against

republicans no offense um so yeah this

idea that we need to throw away like our

current electoral advantage in order to

like do this huge gamut for this future

that we have zero proof even exist that

we even think we don't even know if

there's that much support for these

left-leaning parties in the united

states it seems like people like bernie

sanders would prove that the support

that they believe is there just isn't uh

when you say that you can't chill for

dems at a national level and then vote

for a local third party again you

absolutely can your local politics your

local political scene is gonna be way

different than your national level

political scene um i i don't know where

these statements are are born out of

other than just an unfamiliarity with uh

with local political scenes like you can

have local political people that are

democrats or republicans that are wildly

different in terms of what they support

uh based on the national levels you can

totally support different candidates on

a local level and different candidates

at a federal level this is exactly why

we talk about down ballot voting why

sometimes it's important sometimes down

ballot votes diverge from the from the

top of the line vote especially when it

comes to presidential elections um when

you talk about poor people don't vote

that's true but they're still affected

by policy they're absolutely affected by

policy there's a lot of poor people that

didn't vote for biden that are still

benefiting off the child tax credit or

or potentially anything that's coming

from the infrastructure bill um

and then in terms of like you know it

may be a third party will galvanize

these people and get out to vote third

parties exist right now bernie sanders

tried this like we're gonna get all

these people who traditionally don't

vote to go on vote people say this all

the time we're gonna get these people

we're gonna mobilize we're gonna get

these people gonna vote it never happens

if there is some third party that can

magically mobilize or galvanize these

third these non-voters into like new

voters that'd be great it would be like

a historic thing in order to do that

people have tried people have failed and

in terms of like i don't think politics

is about running soup kitchens either if

you want to talk about like personal

charity or volunteer work we can talk

about that but that's a fundamentally

different question than whether or not

we should support third parties

okay now from now on it's gonna be point

by point i just don't want five five

minute statements going back and forth

so that's how it's gonna be going from

this point on okay uh very quickly i'll

run down the list so the reason there

was incredible turnout in the recent

election was not because anyone believes

in the unity of the democrats and the

republicans it was a referendum on trump

and that's all it was trump defined

american politics at that point people

voted for biden not because they

believed in a unifying democratic

consensus or they believe in a unified

democratic party but because it was a

referendum on trump that's the only

reason you're going to see um such high

turnout because trump has divided this

country

down the middle and that's the only

thing that unites democrats at this

point is that they're against trump um

why couldn't it be a referendum on trump

by going out to vote for a third party

what do you mean we don't have there a

third party doesn't exist right now

there's no the infrastructure for one no

one's building one or not no one's

people not enough people are committing

to the work of building a third party

you yourself streamers and influencers

who represent alternative media you are

not um

giving them a chance you're just

shilling for the establishment while

possessing the very media infrastructure

to make a third party possible so if you

want to ask me why do we have a third

party right now well it's people like me

and it's other people who are using

their media platforms to try and work

for one and get something off the ground

and i just started recently i don't know

how my luck is going to fare but you

already have a really big sizable

platform and a big audience you could do

wonders for a third party yourself

destiny i'm not saying that i don't

support third parties so that's why i

don't i use my

okay okay

so on when you say point by point do you

mean like i can't go down the list and

address everything or

yes so you can like move from one point

to the next point after you've addressed

it yeah i don't know how like we think

that like the way that third parties are

going to rise in the americas off the

backs of youtubers and twitch streamers

that seems like a pretty like well look

it you can call it youtubers or twitch

streamers and i'll call it alternative

media and but youtube sounds like a

silly website and it's a silly website

on the internet with minecraft or

whatever pewdiepie but the truth is that

youtube and this is you can read the

mainstream media because they themselves

will confess this has been an incredible

platform for alternative media even

alternative media you probably aren't so

vehemently opposed to like the young

turks for example you were probably a

young turks guy i mean your politics was

probably defined entirely for many years

as being a young turks democrat right

and that's because of alternative media

okay um

people who call themselves

the so-called progressive movement in

the united states after the obama era

its media was media like the young turks

and democracy now and these kind of

alternative media platforms that were

largely on youtube so this idea that

youtube isn't a serious platform for

alternative media well it's just that

this alternative media has first emerged

on youtube will it always be on youtube

probably not but you know like let's see

like who's who's been successful in like

making real headway into actual politics

from youtube right well i'll give you a

good i'll give you a good example um the

so-called justice democrats was an

initiative launched by the young turks

and kyle kulinski and i'm against aoc i

completely oppose eoc but where did they

where did they launch that initiative

they did it within they did it within

the democratic party yeah i know and the

reason for that by the way is because

the democratic party already had the

fundamental infrastructure and the

democratic party was a recognizable

party with a base but we've seen

actually how this initiative has turned

out and we see that within the

democratic party

the justice democrats as an initiative

failed entirely because we don't have

our own independent uh party with its

own independent streams of revenue and

its own independent structure that's not

going to prevent progressives from being

able to take take over the party and

very early on when aoc was elected you

know they

the whole mainstream media and um

the party itself quickly quickly did

everything in its power to squash that

in its cradle and at this point aoc has

been completely co-opted as just another

democrat so that's not really a good

argument for why we shouldn't uh be

doing it for a third party but

regardless seriously that's an amazing

argument so i mean like the justice

stems like were probably what i from

what i know of is like the best

initiative from an alternative media

platform um the young turks and kyle

kalinski but it failed were able to do

it but they they had to do it going

forward let's reflect on its failure

let's reflect on the reasons for its

failure wait wait no no wait you're

saying failure but i don't think it's a

failure they've got like four really

strong members that are elected aoc is

arguably like the most popular politics

okay since politics is about making

people's lives better what is aoc done

for the american people that makes it

such a successful initiative

aoc doesn't have the ability to leverage

much so we we have hold on aoc has been

bad for the democrats

aoc has been bad for this inability to

hold hold on hold on in the united

states because people like you seem to

think that aoc needs to be able to solo

change no i don't but it's a trajectory

but but at the very least for example

she could make maybe a mar she can do

like a little bit of help but aoc has

only done harm for the democrats

actually aoc um has been an optics

disaster for democrats and and a

propaganda ammunition for the

republicans at this point like

even as a democrat you can't say aoc is

an example of someone's

maybe success could have won in 2020

because of politicians like aoc were so

divisive in this country aoc was the

face of

like the the wing of the democrats that

precisely has no chance whatsoever from

reaching out to trump's constituent base

and uh this tr these type of people that

biden himself was trying to win over so

no it's not a good example um aoc was i

don't know i like your your point is

that like aoc hasn't like solely solo

like drafted legislation no i'm not i'm

not asking her to solo draft legislation

i'm asking her to initiate that we have

destiny to finish this point quick

yeah so like this idea that like she's a

like people say this over and over and

over again if you want i guess we can

talk about the structure of the us

government but like i'm sorry but again

this shows like the short-sightedness of

people that have these huge legislative

initiatives and can only get like one or

two or three or four people into office

like you have to build these caucuses

this shit takes time this shit takes

real work you guys want this fantasy

world where out of nowhere you're going

to have like 200 people march into

congress thinking that they're all going

to be these third-party people to spoke

which that's not how this works right

now far left like lawmakers don't really

have the leverage they need because

right now you barely barely barely have

a legislative majority in the senate if

that's the case you're always going to

be appealing to people in the middle

that can be lost next election season to

the other side like aoc can make all the

stink she wants her seats not being

taken by a republican there's a reason

why people like cinema or why people

like mansion have the have the leverage

in the poll that they do and it's

because they're the ones that exist

close to the center but if you had a

margin of like 52 dems or 54 dems and

you didn't have to worry as much about

that center then people on the really

far left could start making more power

plays you know where aoc is like i'm not

going to support this piece of

legislation until this happens if this

happens and it's like okay well you know

we've got some wiggle room we got 53 52

democrats in here like maybe we can

start to uh uh make appeals to that side

of the political outcome okay yeah yeah

right okay so so this rest hold on

there's two things i want to say before

you cut me off and i'm going to try to

get it in quick the first one is i'm not

saying aoc has to propose all this

legislation all i'm saying is she has at

least should kick-start some kind of

change within the democratic party and

she hasn't done anything like that at

least for the positive as far as the

ability for the democrats to win over

the people that are voting for

republicans currently now the second

thing is that you're basically implying

you basically make this completely a

contradictory argument on the one hand

you say well third parties are not

possible because the current political

reality is the only reality on this one

other hand you say oh the reason why and

i wanted to actually get to this point

but apparently we can't um kristen

cinema and joe manchin have leverage

it's because there's not enough

democrats that have a majority over the

republicans but that's implying that the

reason for that isn't because of these

objective political realities of

populations in the united states who

will never vote for the democrats and

will stick on the republicans it's this

idea that the reason why it's such a

slim majority right now is because

there's not enough um

politically minded young people who are

going out and voting for the democrats i

completely reject that view i think the

reason why

it split down the middle it's because

this country is actually split down the

middle and for you to say and i really

want to address this point for you to

say that the democrats it's not the

democrats fault because they can't pass

the infrastructure bill is the most

stupid thing i've ever heard

you the democrats are the ones it's a

given republicans are going to oppose it

the democrats have a majority now as a

party they're supposed to act in a

unified way if it's a unified party and

yet it's because of a faction of the

democrats that you're not getting this

bill passed you can't blame the

republicans because you already told

people to vote for democrats as an

alternative to the republicans so they

voted democrat so much to the point that

the democrats have a majority but now

you're saying oh that's not enough the

democrats have to have an even more

bigger majority well how much wiggle

room is there for democrats to win

when

you know like how much ability is there

for democrats to win over these trump

supporting uh republicans to the point

where you know you can keep making these

excuses i don't buy it i don't think

it's gonna happen you're not gonna win

over these trump people as a democrat

and

that seems self-evident and obvious to

me you're just gonna the country is

divided down the middle

and i don't see how you've addressed

that in any way even how how can you

address the current political

contradiction

i don't know what the contradiction is

so like you say for instance like

democrats have a majority but they're

supposed to act a unified way but then

it sounded like earlier you were saying

that like the democrat party isn't

unified it's got a ton of different

that's why that was my point it's not

unified wait so yeah but so this is the

point right if you have 50 democrats in

office not every single democrat is

going to have the same legislative

initiatives every other democrat a

democratic senator from west virginia is

going to be far different than a

democratic senator from california but

the infrastructure bill is is one of

those things that defines the unity of

the democrats as a party especially in

this political moment where

it's a test of whether the democrats can

pass bills right if you can't do this

you may as well not be a you may as well

not even be in the same party if you

don't agree to pass this infrastructure

bill

i guess we can like talk about like

political strategy because that's what

this comes down to like mansion and

cinema are not going to give up their

seats to vote for something that's going

to lose them a future election like i'm

sorry but that's just like the political

reality people seem to think like oh the

democrats are going to come together and

vote we don't have we don't there's only

one national level thing that we do in

the united states and that's the

presidential election otherwise you've

got 50 senators two from each state and

you've got 438 members of the house and

then one or two from dc that don't do

anything um like and these people are

all trying to win in their individual

little districts now we come together

under large wings of who we consider

republicans and who we consider

democrats but that doesn't mean that

every single person under that wing is

going to vote the exact so hold on

cinema well they've got a majority hold

on cinema and content hold on let me

finish responding you talk like 20

minutes okay when you have a quote

unquote majority that's literally a

tiebreaker by the vice president you're

talking about the slimmest fucking

margins in the world trump had the exact

same problems when he had um even bigger

margins when he couldn't repeal and

replace uh the aca like he ran into

similar problems too where he didn't get

part of his legislative agenda passed he

didn't get the wall done like he wanted

to you know um we have a lot of problems

with gridlock right now in the senate

that's why things like the nuclear

option become a problem that's why we

have people like trying to get rid of

the filibuster like i agree that

gridlock is a problem but you can't say

like well look we got you your 50

senators where's all of this key

legislation coming from because that's

not going to happen because by

definition any political party that

includes a ton of people at the very

edges is going to have people that are

more moderate that are going to have to

be catered to when it comes to passing

legislation with incredibly slim

majorities

so i don't know why you mentioned trump

having problems too because it's also my

view that the republican party is

ultimately doomed as well the republican

party right now is trump's party if it's

something beyond trump's party then the

party's doomed to collapse so it's

trump's party right now any republican

who's not on board with trump i don't

see having a future within the so-called

republic would you bet on any of this

would you bet on a third party um

is it destiny

here's my issue no no i'm gonna simplify

the issue here's my issue you keep using

this language like would you bet on the

prospects is it going to happen at what

point i get that there are objective

realities in politics like you i'm not a

utopian i don't think that politics is

just based on my personal moral views

and my personal ideology i get it there

are objective realities that reject the

objective

realities of people's sentiments and

beliefs or whatever but at what point

does will actually make a difference in

politics at what point do you have to

stand up and work for something and

build something and fight for something

that there doesn't exist any immediate

precedent for if the actual innovators

in the history of american politics had

your mentality we would have no change

in the history of american politics at

all there would be no abe lincoln there

would be no uh franklin roosevelt there

would be maybe even there would be no

john f kennedy or maybe if it depends on

where you fall on the political spectrum

maybe no richard nixon you have to take

risks you have to fight for some things

for which there doesn't exist any

immediate precedent for because you

can't keep deferring to what is the

current reality the current reality

isn't just objective it also includes

subjective realities and there's a

certain point where you have to step in

and actually have will in politics

so the reason why nobody would vote on

third parties is because you guys know

that they're not a possibility like you

won't even vote with odds right what do

you mean i would ask you is there a ten

percent chance that your party will then

i'll give you ten one odds on somebody

like wait wait destiny i want a third

party to be built

yeah so if you want to build a third

party okay you keep saying that like if

people thought like you nothing would

happen then build and start that that is

what i'm doing that is what i'm doing

but in order to build a destiny in order

to build a third party i'll explain it

simply mutually yeah yeah okay

let's let's let's let's walk it back a

little bit if i want to build a third

party which is my goal then i'm not

going to i'm not going to enter a debate

what i'm going to have

is uh destiny finish what you're saying

about the betting and then i'm gonna

have it bring it to infrared to respond

uh and i'll count personally how long

the response is and i'll keep it under a

minute and 30 seconds for both of you

okay gotcha i'm just trying to respond

to what said so like um if you want to

build something then start building

something building something doesn't

mean doing whatever gets you the most

views on youtube or twitch because

shilling for third parties is like the

most like extremist popular cool thing

that you can do that's literally all it

is there's no real building going on by

advocating for an extreme position that

you yourself because you won't even put

money on it no it's an absolute pipe

dream fantasy it's an incredibly

privileged position to take from behind

your computer screen because it sells

well it's cool it's nice to make youtube

titles title that or whatever when it

comes to real people they need real help

this type of shit doesn't help you know

you mentioned soup kitchens and shit

earlier if you want to get real

effective political change find a local

candidate to support you can do national

level fundraising or international

fundraising in order to support local

candidates at a city level or even at a

state level or work on like mutual aid

programs these different systems that

can exist that can subsume and replace

these capitalist systems you know that

you can replace things like food stamps

or daycare or other things you can build

these programs out as well or find a

union that has a political slant and

support them build them up raise money

for that stuff like all of these things

are things that you can do if you want

to affect real political change just

hopping onto the most popular election

that you can to get as many views as

possible and then just try to claim oh

i'm doing things to make the world

better no you're not you just want to be

on the presidential election push your

candidate because that would get you

that's what gets you the most views the

most money in the most donations

okay well i have a minute and 30 seconds

so look destiny if you if people can't

like i said you didn't actually address

the two arguments you didn't address the

argument about how national elections

because it's about information war plus

organization are what define

uh politics up and down the ballot okay

and if i'm going to advocate for a third

party which is what i'm doing i'm not

going to tell people to vote for the

democrats i'm going to get people mad

about the democrats i'm going to get

people mad about the republicans and i'm

going to broadcast as best of my ability

using my platform to get people to go

out and build a third party and focus if

they want to get involved in politics

and do that work and they have free time

to do it focus your energy on building a

third party to whom it may concern so if

i'm interested in building a third party

that's what i'm going to say you're

saying i'm only doing this reviews which

is interesting people like hassan piker

dwarf me in views and

that's also a pun i guess but they dwarf

me in views and

they don't advocate for a third party

right now so i don't know why you're

saying that's like something that's uh

you know that's something that's only

doing it for clicks interviews i'm

taking a lot of risks taking the

position that i am and it has paid off

but that was based on risk that's the

not precedent uh this the other thing

you said is that uh

you guys know no one's going to vote for

a third party i don't think that's true

i think when you look at what americans

believe in terms of the issues and you

look at the platforms of the respective

political parties there is such a vast

uh difference between those two things

then i think the situation is very ripe

for a third party right now and like i

said if people can't vote for their own

interests use the soup kitchen charity

argument oh go vote and help people

personally if people can't vote in their

own interests because the poor people

aren't the ones who are voting those

people you're saying are victims and

need our help they don't vote if they

can't vote in their own interests why do

we have a democracy

okay

i mean why have democracy

i mean they have the ability to vote but

i mean like yeah but what's the point of

democracy if you're just going to vote

on behalf of other people

i i i mean like and again like you said

just like all the all the progressives

like what's the point of democracy if

you won't support my people like why

aren't you guys like no i'm saying if

you're if your reason for voting is for

other people and those people aren't

going to be getting out there and voting

for themselves why the fuck do we even

have democracy why don't you advocate

for an undemocratic technocracy in which

destiny does policies for people's best

interests

minute 50 okay so we're going to throw

it over to destiny to respond

okay so

when you talk about how first of all

your position okay so you you vote in

the ways that you do ideally to make a

better world for yourself better with

other people i guess it depends on why

people vote this idea that like you're

voting for poor people that don't vote i

just i don't understand you're

fundamentally doing the same thing no

i'm not like except

and you're trying to say also again just

like like really far-left progressives

would say it's like oh these people they

really support us they just don't know

it yet oh they would support our

policies they just don't know it yet i

mean like if there's all these poor

people out here that aren't voting like

why haven't third parties made the

argument to them to get them out to vote

it just doesn't happen they don't go out

and they don't vote for third parties

because third parties don't have any

like local or state or third parties

don't attract their attention so there's

like no there's no third parties aren't

getting their attention right now so

when you talk about how like everything

you've done is based on risk not

precedent absolutely not people come out

with extreme points of view all the time

that was your entire branding was being

the most extreme motherfucker you

possibly could be every single person in

here knows it your entire branding is

being abrasive and screaming like a 2016

destiny that supports a third party

instead of one of the two primary ones

um the idea that you can't focus energy

on like building a third party on a

local level also just doesn't make sense

if it's something that's so fucking

important to you that you think is so

important you that you think matters so

much well i mean what are you doing to

help build a third party is it literally

just the stuff that also coincidentally

empowers you to make more money on

youtube and twitch is it the stuff that

helps you build audiences and networks

and connections just like assange does

on twitch or have you actually like you

know stuck your neck out and done things

to support third party candidates like

are there any local or state level

third-party candidates you support or do

you not give a fuck about any of that

you just want to hop on and talk about

presidential stuff because that's where

the viewership is well okay you're wrong

on that account i have platformed local

uh people running for local elections

like steven estrada for the communist

party of long beach in california so

you're completely talking out of your

fucking ass and the idea that i've built

my entire brand on being the most

extreme person possible this is such a

recklessly stupid thing to say that even

surprises me coming from you

my tone may be extreme my style may be

extreme but in terms of the content of

the views i've actually espoused there's

nothing extreme about them i've reached

out to conservatives i've reached out to

even to trump people and right-wing

people and i've condemned a far-left

extremism i've condemned extremism

across the board i've called myself

almost ironically a communist centrist

there's nothing extreme about the actual

content of my views the content of my

views is actually very tame and

reasonable now

optics wise and that the spectacle i put

up is extreme but that doesn't actually

reflect the things i say if you discount

my views on history and maybe communism

and the soviet union and maybe china

maybe that would be considered extreme

in the united states but in terms of

what i advocate for here there's nothing

extreme about it so yeah they're like i

said and especially that's especially

why there's no precedent for a guy like

me a self-proclaimed marxist leninist

who doesn't pander to the extremists and

ultra leftists um that you know that

that say oh yeah all elections and

politics are meaningless we should just

advocate for revolution now and direct

action whatever the fuck they say

um

which is ironically sometimes something

hassan on the low key flirts with but he

doesn't advocate for entirely um

i really forgot the other shit you said

before so refresh my memory how can you

say you're not an extreme when you

literally are talking about like

escaping both political parties and

voting third party yeah

but because i i think do you think the

united states an extreme position do you

think we live in an extreme time here in

the united states i think with

relativity

relative to the political climate what

i'm advocating for is very moderate

you think that a marxist leninist in the

united states right now is a moderate

position to be in

i don't think i i don't think right

right now right now as far as the

majority of people are concerned i don't

think marxist leninist positions

um have their attention or have any

significance among them but put my

marxism leninism aside i'm advocating

for a big tent third party that will

reach out to people across the political

aisle who merely agree upon the fact

that the current political establishment

is insular and kept that doesn't allow

up-and-coming people with bright ideas

people like uh maybe initially

before he his political uh

you know

change of tone maybe people like andrew

yang and all these people who have

innovative political ideas whatever you

want even libertarians uh the ron paul

people whatever whatever you want we can

all agree that regardless of where we

stand politically and ideologically if

you're not part of the big club which is

the current establishment who's in bed

with special interests and who all know

each other and who all attend their

family's weddings and their families you

know um

events and social gatherings if you

don't know these people you don't have a

future in politics right now so i think

there needs to be a big tent people's

party a third party

that

is about saving american democracy from

these um entrenched two parties

which have gate kept the ability for

politics to actually give expression to

what the american people actually want

and like i said would you deny that

there's a disconnect between the actual

policy platforms that americans mostly

agree upon and the platforms of the

respective parties because most

americans agree with each other when it

comes to meat and potatoes issues and

that's not people say this all the time

that meet my issues like americans

you probably should lower it a little

bit

this is uh i don't know what this is not

my mic so i don't

i don't know how to work this uh mic

okay we'll make two of them destiny

continue yeah so uh so i mean

i'm gonna hold you to one thing i guess

because you you're dancing away from

every point like you are an extremist i

don't know how you could say that you're

not an extremist like when you advocate

for a third party and you which point

was i dancing from political parties

then by definition like i'm not saying

extremist is bad or maybe you want to

avoid like the moral loading of the word

but like you must have some pretty

extreme positions and by your own

admission there are these huge nets that

are cast by the republican in the

democratic party and you're not caught

by either one of those um i don't even

think this is the most extreme time in

u.s history and i would still say that

you have like very extreme political

views like being a marxist londoner is

just a pretty extreme unless you're

going to say that like oh you know

there's tons of mls in the united states

which i think every lefty would shoot

themselves if you ironically believe

that like there's no way everybody knows

this when you talk about how the

republicans and the democrats are

gatekeeping politics i mean like

inorganically there's probably some

extent to this going on in terms of like

deciding who gets to be hosted at large

uh debates and whatnot like i'm sure we

can say this happens but um also

organically this probably happens as

well because the democratic and the

republican party are so huge because

they include so many different beliefs

because they include so many different

types of people then by definition it's

going to be a little bit exclusionary

because if you want to run as a third

party like chances are depending on

where you are you could probably just

run as a republican or a democrat and

you'd be fine bernie sanders is

relatively extreme but when he runs for

president he runs as a democrat you know

um the idea that also that like all

americans agree like you you keep

repeating this argument over and over

again and it sounds nice but i'm sorry

but like people have ran with these

arguments over again everybody agrees

with me they just don't know what

americans agree they just don't have ml

ideas in their head they just don't know

it they just don't know it okay well

then the owners on you to get these

views out in front of them and prove it

because right now it kind of just sounds

like a whole bunch of copium or it's

like oh trust me they love my platform

they just knew about it a lot of people

know about these platforms they just

don't like them that much um and then

finally i don't think there is agreement

broadly on like the quote-unquote meat

and potatoes issues because we've got

these huge political divides again that

you've said do exist in the united

states it's hard to say americans agree

on meat and potatoes issues when

republicans and democrats are more

polarized than they ever have been when

it comes to how to address the problems

in the united states mean potatoes

issues might be something like you know

the earned income tax credit or child

tax credit which are like hardly

democratically supportive things mean

potato issues might be things like who

should get health care which is

something that is supported by the

democratic party now the republican

party um you know free education or easy

access to education time yeah um so

you're saying my position is extreme

because i'm advocating for a third party

well i don't i like i said you didn't

address my argument we live in an

extreme political climate in which a

third party is not something that's so

extreme but if you look at the the

election of trump and all the shit

that's gone down for the past you know

four years or or more

yeah i don't i just don't see it as

extreme you say oh you're extreme

because you're a marxist leninist well i

just don't think the americans are

familiar with what marxism leninism is

or how marxism leninism

might actually be something or marxist

lenders leaders at least might be people

that they're interested in i'm trying to

make the case and show them that i don't

expect the majority of americans to have

sympathetic views toward marxism

leninism or to my specific ideology and

i don't blame them for it i'm trying to

make the case and i think marxist

lenders need to prove

that

dialectical materialism and

marxism is actually useful in being able

to actually uh maneuver politically and

and win politically so that's something

i actually want to prove in practice now

i think the main thrust of your argument

is basically that

see i'm in a position where i'm able to

experiment you're saying oh it's copium

that you're thinking that everyone

agrees with you wait i'm not necessarily

saying everyone agrees with me but what

i am doing is i'm i'm trying to

establish an ability to experiment with

what people really want and just be open

to the fact that what people really want

in this country is different from what's

being represented to them in the form of

the establishment whether this

establishment is is gate capped

organically or inorganically is

completely irrelevant i don't care

whether it's inorganic organic but it's

actually funny that one of the examples

for inorganic gate keeping was something

that had to actually be proven by

wikileaks

and that's the only reason you fucking

know about it in the first place if it

wasn't for wikileaks we we wouldn't have

even have known about that so who knows

what else goes goes on behind the scenes

but what was proven by wikileaks exactly

the um the collaboration between cnn and

um hillary clinton in the democratic

debates

sure so that was definitely bad but i

don't think that rises to the level of

gatekeeping right where somebody was

passing off questions it shouldn't have

happened but that that gatekeeping and

argument well it makes it harder

for people like bernie sanders to

perform

it was bad it was horrible so it's

gatekeeping they're gates keeping the

party from outsiders

perceived outsiders

sure but bernie also came up through the

democratic party you're right ran in

that primary and both of them enjoyed a

great deal of support within the

democratic party right yeah to say that

he's like an example of like gatekeeping

that's a pretty shitty job at

gatekeeping if that's the case

well they they well the point is is he

rose so much from scratch without any

institutional support within the

democrats and even then they had to work

against them so i think that's actually

a really good example of gatekeeping if

arguably like one of the most successful

politicians

in the past like five years just in

terms of like national media coverage

presidential election is somebody that

was gay kept

i mean in that case i don't care about

gatekeeping because i guess it doesn't

work very well if bernie sanders is able

to do it off of small donations without

enjoying anything well because the small

the small donations were something that

were not anticipated by the political

elite within the democrats or the

republican even when it came to trump

who didn't primarily rely on small

donations i know that but none of them

anticipated hey this is just about money

anyone with enough money can basically

rival what we're doing and they never

entertain the possibility because like

you destiny back in 2016

or 2015 they're all sitting around and

saying ah nothing new under the sun it's

always been the same everything's been

the same there's no possibility trump's

going to win the republican primary he

wanted oh there's no possibility he's

going to win the election he won it oh

there's no possibility that a guy like

bernie has a chance he did have a good

chance you know what i'm saying people

like you have always been on the losing

side of actual history especially

recently this makes sense because all of

the people that you're talking about

exist within the realm of the main two

political parties yeah yeah i know but i

don't understand why i i this is an

example of anything that supports you i

i i don't

listen i i was a

destiny you're you're neglecting

community for a great holiday you're

neglecting that i was a bernie supporter

in 2016. so i wanted bernie to win i was

fully on board with bernie

i'm i'm i'm just going to be a great

realignment of like political party

third party's going to rise to do

something it seems like like 2016. i

never said third parties are going to

spontaneously rise and do something i've

always been consistent about the fact

that this is something that requires

will not deference to some external

objective reality second of all i

advocated i was a bernie supporter back

in 2016. all i've done is in contrast to

you the so-called omni liberals and the

hassan chapo people whoever the hell

these people are i am trying to

seriously and honestly reflect upon the

reasons for bernie's failure now it's

not just the establishment it's also an

issue internally that i've also

relentlessly critiqued and ruthlessly

critiqued before but it stands uh

as far as my views are concerned and i

haven't seen you address this in any

substantive way that the time is ripe

for a third party

if the time is right for the third party

then where are they like

destiny when i'm saying the time is

right i'm talking destiny now the time

is right now i don't you want me to

point you for an example from five years

ago what i'm talking about now we should

be getting up and working destiny we

should work to build a third party now

that's what i'm trying to say i'm not

saying we should it should have been

done uh two years ago or three years ago

forget about that

obviously it hasn't happened yet but

that's what i'm here to make the case

for it's almost like if someone tells

you hey destiny can you go to the

grocery store and get me go some

groceries saying oh why haven't i gotten

you groceries before

like

i'm telling you to do it now you know

what i mean like your argument doesn't

make any sense

okay

all i'm saying is if the time is right

for a third party then where is it i

can't argue against this like

nirvanistic like i don't say fallacy but

this this nirvana you're presenting it's

like the time is right it's gonna happen

now it's gonna happen now it's gonna

like no i didn't say it's gonna happen

i'm saying it should happen okay it may

not okay wait wait wait wait i'll give

him i'm doing the 130 130. i swear to

god you will have equal time to talk i

just want to make sure people can hear

what he's saying uh destiny

where are the third parties okay like

it's funny because i accused you of

engaging in massive coping and then you

literally engaged in massive copy like

americans just don't know what ml is

like if they just if they all if these

poor people that didn't even know how to

vote uh knew what dialectical

materialism is they would understand the

material conditions they live in and

they no i didn't say that you're taking

words out of my mouth

no that's not what i said they wrote

down that you mentioned i i said i said

i said i said dialectical materialism

i literally wrote quotes i'm writing

quotes

i didn't i didn't say i said i said they

they could see americans just don't know

i see i said i said

yeah here's what i said about

dialectical materialism destiny destiny

you're taking you're taking you're

taking my words out of context i said

here's what i said about dialectical

materialism i basically just said that

it could be proven that political

partisans who are equipped with

dialectical materialism can prove

they're anything you're saying

can prove their

can prove their ability as political

leaders and organizers and lead by

example and therefore prove the merit of

dialectical materialism in practice i'm

not talking about you know uh

disseminating esoteric theories and

philosophies to people that they

secretly care about dialectical

materials i'm just saying the utility of

dialectical materialism is something

that can be proven in practice

by means of um savvy and and

conscientious political operatives who

are using these theories to actually win

people over and uh and win victories now

has it happened yet no it hasn't but

that's why i'm here because i believe it

can happen and if i'm wrong i'm wrong

but to say that i'm coping when i'm

merely talking about something i think

should happen and something that i'm

committing to

contribute as best as i can to happen is

ridiculous if i say oh i'm going to try

and do something uh oh that's copium why

because i'm ener because i'm

entertaining the possibility something

that's being

okay

you have 20 seconds left

why because i'm entertaining the

possibility that it can happen if i fail

i'll learn from my failure and and adapt

that's what praxis means but i'm not

going to sit idly and have this

guarantee in an establishment which has

had decades to prove its uh itself to

the american people and has failed so

i'm gonna keep failing and get better

and how is that cope i don't understand

so you keep saying people want something

that's not being represented by the

establishment yeah what is it in your

mind the third party can offer that's

not being represented by the

establishment sure i think when it comes

to um broad issues like for example

uh how exactly are we going to address

this fourth industrial revolution and

this um rapid change in the uh nature of

jobs and work and with the way people

are employed especially not what the

infrastructure bill aims to do the

infrastructure can't even get passed

not yet it hasn't it's not and and it's

been slimmed down so fucking much it's

the infrastructure but that's being

pushed by one of you you're not getting

your infrastructure bill right you're

not getting that bill okay if

red do you want to expand it's still

your time so if you want to expand yeah

yeah you're not gonna that's the worst

thing you could have said destiny the

infrastructure bill is precisely an

example of why the things americans need

can't actually be get uh

get done under the leadership of the two

parties or the democratic party right

now i mean it's the worst thing you

could have said debate wise you know wow

take the l anyway

um

what you said about um i was losing my

training

how exactly are we going to address this

fourth industrial revolution yeah good

change of nature of drought right yeah

this word salad of yang shit okay okay

infrastructure bill literally aims to

try to address some of that and it fails

to telling me that it fails

can't even pass with 50 democrats in the

senate yeah how the fuck it's a third

party going to make a measure because

because a third party is actually going

to overcome the false divisions created

by the republicans and democrats and in

my view and i'm gonna at least work to

give it a shot unify the american people

on the basis of their what i consider

common interests i don't think that the

division wait what are the false can we

do

the 30 minutes yeah i think for example

one of the reasons yeah the divisions

between the republicans and democrats

don't actually reflect in my view

authentic objective intra

in divisions as far as the real

interests of the american people are

concerned rather there are niche

cultural um

you know propaganda ideological

differences that

completely go beyond materially speaking

what matters

uh to the american people

so if there is somebody that's literally

a single so my mom prints a single issue

voter on things like abortion how are

you to decide for a voter oh that

doesn't matter to you because abortion

is the thing that brought her to be

passionate about politics

what abortion is the thing that drew her

into being passionate about politics

okay

and

running off of a mass movement a mass

popular movement will draw a great deal

of people disillusioned or otherwise

uninterested by the current political

system and political uh alternatives to

be interested in politics trump got a

lot of people to be interested in

politics who other otherwise wouldn't

have been uh bernie also did that so the

reason you're rambling

the the reasons why people are

interested in politics differ and this

is the explanation for single-issue

voters because that issue was this

ideological and religious and um

narrative that suffice to actually draw

them to be interested in politics in the

first place the question is if we live

in a democracy why are there single

issueville voters why isn't it enough to

be interested in in politics for the

sake of

fighting on behalf of what you consider

your interests or the people's interests

well it's precisely because we have a

very big deficiency within our so-called

democracy and i think a third party

should run on a on the position of um

saving the americans

who are you to say that some of these

social issues that people singulate your

vote on how can you call that a false

division when that is a real division

and those issues are important because

because at the end of the day

yeah because at the end of the day the

way in which it actually impacts their

life is not all that

significant or profound you're so then

you're retreating back to the argument

earlier like they just don't know what's

good for them but i'm going to show them

so that they know what's good i i

definitely believe the american people

right now do not necessarily know

uh or have articulated the language of

of what their interests are but i don't

i'm not saying i already know but but

but and this is where you're creating a

straw man which is unsustainable as far

as what i've actually said i'm not

claiming to know exactly what it is the

american people want all i'm committing

to

is a willingness to reach out and

discover what that is i'm just rejecting

the idea that the only manifestation of

the american people's interests is being

reflected at the level of the two-party

system

okay so that's awesome but right now

we're not talking about politics then so

politics is trying to secure

politics is about securing political

power that's what it's about if you're

not claiming to know what people want

then you can't have a platform no

actually politics discover what people

want

politics is about you're not engaged in

politics

i just want to say to both of you

if we're both talking at the same time

nobody hears shit okay okay i know but

if i stop he just closes yeah this guy's

talking like twice as much yeah yeah

destiny stop crying stop crying doesn't

he anyway politics is wait okay i did it

okay my major role my one rule is when

i'm talking nobody else is talking okay

i'm not gonna move on so

since the the problem is when you do the

point by point people are interrupting

more and when it comes to the other

thing when they do five minute diatribes

people don't want one five minutes so

i'm gonna do my best to control this but

i'm just gonna like i'm gonna have this

destiny go i'm gonna slow i'm gonna try

to shorten it to 30 seconds to one

minute instead so it could be more so

destiny then has and we'll do 30 seconds

for one minute so it could be more point

by point but i want to go point my point

but the problem is if i try to go point

by point when i go one point he goes

like you stop whining just roll with it

so much like talking stop bitching

you're wasting time dude i got places to

be

you obviously you don't if you agreed to

do this you have no obligation to be

here so when you say that you're not

claiming to know what people want if

that's the case then you're not doing

politics politics is all about like

representing constituents we live in a

democracy unless you want to be some

authoritarian dictator by definition if

you're doing political action you're

doing action on behalf of other people

to secure some type of political power

for you to try to skirt all of that and

to avoid any like responsibility or

strong claims or put a stake in the

ground saying this is what i believe in

this what i think they wanted to just

say i'm just trying to reach out and

discover go be a pollster

yeah that's phil it's a philosophically

and politically ideologically untenable

view or whatever because politics is

about building power but one of the

aspects of real politics is a genuine

openness

as to what being able to listen to the

people i mean if you want to talk about

i'm a marxist-leninist to me i learned

this from maoism it's something called

the mass line you don't necessarily

begin with the assumption you know what

the people want you just have a

willingness to build an institution to

build an apparatus to build some kind of

organization from which you are going to

enter into a certain dialectic or

dialogue or interaction if you want to

use a less loaded term with the masses

of people now that doesn't necessarily

mean you already know what they want you

will discover what they want by actually

drawing a base of contact with them and

drawing support from them and and

reaching out to them and media is

probably the most important part of that

media was the foundation of for example

the russian bolshevik party medium was

the foundation probably of every

alternative

revolutionary or

third party in the history of uh in

history of the world

so i so like i mean like

i've done conversations like this before

so

it's so strange just watching you hate

watch you talk so much like you say so

much and so little at the same time so

like boiling down everything that you

said before about how when you engage in

your political practices you will

discover what the people want is it

direct contradiction to what you said

earlier when you said and i quote people

want something different that's not

being represented by the establishment

how do you know people truly want

something that's not being represented

by the establishment if you don't even

know what they want yet and part of it

because that's

yeah what i said is not illogical i'm

just literally following and i'm writing

in quotes like your very own statements

i guess if you want to address that

contradiction then go how can you know

yeah i'll address something different

that's not being represented by the

establishment but then go on and admit i

don't know what people want yeah let's

address that as i do let's let's address

it like again you haven't even described

me like what's missing yeah you destiny

destiny

it's very simple logic you can know what

people don't want without knowing

exactly what they want positively i for

example if someone doesn't want to eat

shit you don't know what their favorite

food is they just don't want to eat the

shit

you just said something completely

stupid and illogical

if people don't want to eat the shit

then why did a record number of people

vote for in the last election

because there was a steaming pile of

diarrhea in their view that was the

alternative to that shit

yeah but they could have just not voted

you have some of the most engaged voters

in the history presidential yeah because

it was a referendum on trump now you're

here and you can't pass bills your

government doesn't even fucking work

you're here now

it was a referendum on trump you voted

out trump here you are the government

the government you know what

government's about right it's not about

to own the other side it's actually

about to get things done our government

can't get things done it we can't even

pass a basic fucking infrastructure bill

you won that yeah there was a record

number turnout i was advocating for

people to not vote to boycott the vote

well you got biden in power here our

government is and it doesn't even

fucking work what have you won destiny

what have you won the government is not

about getting things done that's what's

it about what the job is the

government's job is to represent the

will of the people so okay how is the

will of the people being represented

right now because this country is

historically divided and polarized in

ways that it probably never has so how

is it being

represented

what how is the will of the people being

represented right now the will of the

people is being represented right now

because half of americans don't agree

with the other half on what should

happen so the government is having a

really hard time getting anything done

but that's what you would expect from a

government that is representing the

democratic interests of the people this

country is legitimately divided biden

got more votes than any president u.s

history and trump was number two so

obviously there's going to be a

difficult time if the government's power

is logically exciting so to you the only

the only site that has a really hard

time taking anything so the only site at

which the will of the people can ever

find representation is in the current

established options they have on the

shelves there's not a possibility for a

different product in your view it's only

what's on the shelf it could be

impossible and you and you can claim

this

moreover and all you've told me is

you're gonna try moreover you can you

can claim this with absolute certainty

somehow never said that

it is possible that in the future there

might be conditions that arise destiny i

need you to understand but the problem

is the technical parties that's

logically speaking both in our media and

our finances and in our government and

in everybody's destiny logically

speaking for a third party to rise up

yeah maybe you need to know something

about like uh party even should you

haven't even given me like positions

like all when i asked you like what

could a third party offer that the

primary two can your your response was

like uh how are we going to address the

fourth industrial revolution and rabbit

you said you're giving me a yang answer

that's not telling you that's not a

policy position that's not like hold on

hold on hold on like some vague shit

that you could talk about hold on hold

on

one destiny there are plenty of bright

policymakers who want to be given a

platform in this third party i confess i

am not a policy maker obviously broad

narratives are what's going to define

entirely new parties yeah when i'm

saying the something as vague as the

fourth industrial revolution i am

talking about a very broad issue that

has to be addressed in an equally broad

way and politically speaking now if it

was just a matter of one or two poli

it's not a matter of one or two policies

it's not a matter of three policies or

four policies it's a matter of a whole

multiplicity of polities which are only

unified by these broad

uh narratives or whatever these broad

so-called word salads you're giving if

it was just the sum total of opposing

policy prescriptions obviously um

we wouldn't be talking about anything

but it stands right now that we can see

that there actually is a certain reason

why some policies are able to make it

and others don't policies which don't

threaten the special interests have a

chance policies which threaten the

current special interests don't have a

chance so it's almost as simple as that

the two parties are bought out by

special interests

uh that's a whole other conversation if

you want to have that but so like when

you say like a whole multiplicity of

policies that are painted by this broad

narrative are what you're talking about

how do you then connect with earlier you

were saying poor people are like about

like meat and potatoes issues are you

gonna have this multiplicity of you know

political

uh discussion with them you're going to

bring this like broad thing of new

policies like every poor person yeah

broad broad hold on broad

broad hold on broad narratives are what

give expression to people's belief that

they can actually address their meat and

potatoes concerns politically so i don't

know what you're trying to say broad

narrative that isn't encompassed by one

of the two political parties no

what no what is it what is a unique

broad narrative you're asking for what

is unique broad narrative sure one of

them is um the current political system

is rigged and it serves the interests of

special interests and not the people if

we want to even have the ability to give

political representation to the will of

the people we need a third party that's

not um already captured by these

entrenched uh established interests any

special interests yeah so literally like

both political parties say this all the

time the current political system like

the democrat the republican party right

now believes the election was stolen

trump constantly said about how the

current political system is rigged

bernie sanders was a huge candidate he

said that parts of the political system

are written the justice democrats talk

about all the time do they talk about

the two-party system he talks about yeah

so do they talk about the two-party

system what about the two-party system

is that something they talk about

uh no so you're well that's something

i'm talking about your broad narrative

that establishes your third party is

there should be third parties yeah

this should be a third party i can't

beat that one

there should be a third party guys okay

hold on destiny let me ask you a

question what is democracy

uh

that's a really broad what is the

content of democracy just quickly what's

the content of democracy

uh ideally it's some group of people

whose will is being represented in some

way okay so what is that what does that

look like concretely

democracy on its own doesn't look like

anything i mean we could talk about like

a representative okay accuracy we could

talk about like well if if if my

position is if my position is that a

third party is the only manner by which

american democracy can be um

restored or built or revived however you

want to phrase it

then obviously i don't it's the burden

is not upon me to say like oh this is

specifically the issue that they have to

focus upon but

there are many bright ideas there are

many ideas that people have i personally

think that we should be looking at the

early 20th century and late 19th century

issue of land reform which was actually

what formed the foundation

inadvertently at least of the new deal

democrats although they didn't pursue

direct land reform themselves it

actually had influence of on the uh

housing reforms

and the housing legislation

that eventually would get uh passed

especially if i recall correctly in the

post-war era right i don't care what

policies americans supported 100 years

ago i'm sorry i don't think that's

politically relevant right now no i

actually think it is relevant because i

i am also a political theorist and a

theorist i don't know we don't have to

get in the nitty-gritty potatoes

but

but but but land reform is

probably the most decisive um

uh

issue or policy that actually leads to

political change historically

okay where how do you know that most

people care about this then where do you

find that support at well because if you

theorize politically the basic social

contract between a given state and its

people lies in a state being able to

give its people some kind of economic

and i don't mean this in like the loaded

leftist sense some kind of means of

production just in the sense of like a

solid economic basis with which they can

actually engage in economic activity so

governments if you look at almost any

state in history found its basis upon

this type of land grants or or you know

giving titles of nobility and feudalism

or during you know

the time of the french revolution

especially

with napoleon i don't want to get to in

the nitty-gritty of this but yeah land

reform is a linchpin of political change

and uh of it's the foundation of states

whether it's directly phrased as land

reform or not like the stability of the

american state in the post-war era was

sustained by for example those post new

deal

housing policies and uh things like that

which gave americans like the minimum of

a stable economic uh

livelihood

can you give me an example of what is

what do you mean by land reform what

time what kind of land reform are we

talking about

well today that could obviously either

be um

actual land reform of giving people

actual like just straight land and space

it could be something focused on housing

like what they're doing in china they're

giving giving grants of people to sink

own

single

home apartments when you say giving

people land you mean we're going to do

plots in montana we're giving that to

people over california hope they move

out there or what do you mean by giving

people land what happens giving people

some kind of means of having like a

minimal economic it could even be ubi i

you know it could be a lot of things but

it has the ideas

it has to function as the equivalent to

what land reforms have historically

functioned as politically you see

we have 30 minutes left

before this is over

i think dead forgiveness is an important

thing too

yeah

do you have a hearing problem

go ahead dylan

okay thank you

so

for the next 30 minutes if you have any

points you want to get in now would be

the time to get them in i'm just telling

you this now so afterwards you're not

like fuck i wanted to say this so if

there's anything in the back of your

pocket that you have to bring up and you

want to bring up yeah now would be the

time okay are you leaving now so you

guys could get yourself

stephen

hi steven

hi what's up

i'm just chilling you like my outfit i'm

a vampire

nice looks awesome thanks

i just want to say is she a third-party

vampire or democrat vampire i'm um spike

from buffy the vampire slayer so

whatever he's british so he doesn't

participate in american politics ah

boris johnson vampire okay that's nice

they're kind of like matching costumes

because house is a fucking time vampire

over here right

i'm sorry

you can continue you got 30 minutes i

don't i don't yeah so like i don't know

like uh i

this is every third party like debate

ever like every time it's like that our

thing is going to come and it's the

third party that represents the

interests of the people that aren't

being represented but i don't really

know what those interests are and i was

like okay well like what what like i'm

not asking for specific policies but

just like broadly speaking like what the

fuck are we even well what about like

land reform from the 19th century and

it's like no i said there could be like

what the fuck does that mean right like

you're basically at the end of the day

like and this is the problem with third

parties the problem is that the

democratic party and the republican

party are incredibly broad they

encompass a lot of different political

ideology when you can go all the way

left and find somebody like aoc or

bernie sanders and then all the way

right and find somebody like manchester

cinema in the same political party it's

going to be really difficult for a third

party to find space in there now i'm not

saying it's impossible there might be a

third party that makes the case we come

up and like hey you know what here are

some issues that people really care

about and nobody's talking about them

and we're going to come we're going to

hammer these issues and we're going to

start to gain political power doing it

but you haven't presented me any of

those issues talking about stuff that

happened in the 1900s or trying to talk

about stuff that uh is happening in

china like that's a good thing to sell

to the american people like these are

just not issues they're gonna win with

like the meat potatoes poor people that

you think aren't voting because they

don't have a third party to represent

them yeah i think this whole debate

really boils down to destiny's inability

to look beyond the appearance of things

and actually think about what is the

real essence behind these things like

why is it that americans vote in the way

they do why is it for example you just

mentioned this americans have a negative

view of china is that because they

necessarily do or is it because of a

deeper and more fundamental reason but

regardless of the fact i think it can be

summed up simply and neatly as this

um

a we are supposed to have a government

buy for and of the people this is the

standard to which we are supposed to

hold the current american government as

well as the current so-called

representatives of the american people

my only claim is that they don't satisfy

the criterion of a government by for and

of the people which works on behalf of

the interests of the people rather than

special interests and entrenched

interests and insular establishments

which claim to represent the objective

facts and the truth and the will of the

people but in actual fact and in actual

reality utterly failed to do that just

going off of the inability to get out

widespread voter turnout with the

exception of these single you know issue

referendums like the referendum on trump

but even then turnout

wasn't really that impressive as far as

a democracy is concerned maybe relative

to america it's impressive but

if for a so-called democracy it's really

not that impressive

but i mean the problem is you haven't

demonstrated like buy for and of the

people none of these things describe

third parties right now you don't have

any third parties by the people they're

all there well that's that's the theme

you don't have third parties

the difference between me and you is

that you have the burden of defending

the people who now do claim to represent

the will of the people all i'm saying is

i want to fight for an alternate i want

people to look at uh things like

movement or now i think it's no longer

moving it's the people's party right now

look at big tent broad coalition parties

that are trying to build third parties

in this country and um

you know and pre and and fight and build

and don't be afraid to risk building

those alternatives now the reason single

third party like that in the united

states that you'd be comfortable putting

money on getting a single federal seat

or two federal seats well no because

it's not a matter of a gamble this is

actually a point in politics which this

is all a gamble you just admitted

earlier though so destiny this is the

this is the single argument you have

consistently been unable to respond to i

doubt you're going to be able to respond

to i'm sorry you just keep running away

from him i'm writing it down go ahead

you are treating this reality as a

matter of just this pure external

objective

thing outside of our will i am saying

there is a moment in politics in which

actual will becomes decisive i am not

saying that on its own

there's this party that's gonna make it

we have to fight to make it that way

because this is a moment that demands

our actual will our actual intervention

why would i even be here why would i

even be live why would i even be talking

about this if i didn't think people

actually have to

do something and actually have the will

to um fight for this if i thought it was

just gonna happen on its own i wouldn't

even be streaming right now destiny

can you summarize that

yeah um i'm not saying something's just

going to happen on its own spontaneously

i am actually using my platform to fight

for this alternative to convince people

specifically politically conscientious

and educated people with spare time to

care about politics

to do this right they haven't done it

yet you you say i'm not responsible can

you state this in the form of an

argument what is the argument here

um can you demonstrate i didn't make an

argument if you want to do that game

i'm not trying to play a game so this is

what you said you're treating this

reality as a matter of pure external

yeah because you're asking like what

you're asking like

you're asking what current third party

you just asked destiny

destiny destiny i gotta hear okay okay

can we stop really i didn't hear what

the question was so jesse could you

receive the question so we can have

house respond to this question i i don't

know what the argument is i'm supposed

to respond to that there's going to be

some magical shonen s narrative figure

that's going to come up that we're all

going to put our will behind like you

can't like right you just you just

avoided the argument again

it's not clicking for you it's just not

clicking for you you just said again

sorry oh oh it was repeated you were you

just said oh destiny's that you're

really angry you need to chill you just

said destiny it's okay it's just the

internet destiny you just said a naruto

guy is going to appear out of nowhere

you just made the argument again the

straw man that i'm saying something is

just going to happen out there you

literally ignore and dodge the argument

what i'm literally saying is no i'm not

saying something is just magically going

to happen i'm advocating people to do

things

to actually make it happen right so if

you are on the end of this saying no i'm

advocating for this i want to intervene

i want to have some sort of intervention

i'm going to fight to make this what are

you fighting for and when your answer to

what are you fighting for is well i'm

going to ask people and find out like

you're you're putting a car before a

horse

the fourth industrial revolution and the

dialectical materialistic way of

analyzing the language you're using

words you don't understand nobody cares

about this yeah but no american

especially no meat potatoes poor voting

american gives a fuck about anything but

it's it's it's not their job

what the fuck you're talking about yeah

that's what i was gonna get through so

destiny it's it's not the job

like if you were to come here and you

were like you know what i think that

there are these three or four things

none of these political parties are

talking about this shit we need to do

something instead you literally admitted

earlier the biggest point for why your

third party is arguing something that

nobody else is arguing that biggest

point was that they were arguing in

favor of a third party that's it that

was the most unique thing about a third

party is that they want a third party to

exist when you're actually willing to

admit that foundational epistemic

circularity for your entire

justification for existing it's like

what the fuck is ever the point of what

you're doing right that's like saying

like hey you've got two teams in

basketball we should have a third team

why because nobody else is advocating

for a third team well what's that third

team going to do advocate for itself to

exist okay no no yeah let me be very

clear so destiny it's not the job of

ordinary people to care about all this

complex stuff i am but for someone who

like goes on stream and acts like

they're like this extremely politically

informed person and this like smart guy

it is actually your job to sit the fuck

down and actually try to think this

through a little bit you can't feign

ignorance and pretend to be some dipshit

fucking league of legends gamer which

you are admittedly but you're pretending

to be the contrary so you have to bear

with me and not you know oh daryl just

because you don't like don't know these

theories and you're just an ignorant

person

it's not really an excuse now second of

all destiny um my position has been very

clear you're saying oh all you're

advocating is for a third party yeah but

for why because policies can't even be

passed which go against the interests of

special interests party can't pass them

yeah but i think a third party can

what's the point destiny dylan dylan can

you shut this guy up am i talking or no

i just told him yeah destiny destiny my

whole position is a third party can

actually give representation enter into

contact with the american people put

forward policies and proposals that are

going to work for the interests of the

american people and there's not going to

be

special interests or captured entrenched

established interests which are going to

uh stop them or prevent them okay now as

far as what the exactly that's going to

look like what you're demanding of me is

an absurdity you're basically saying i

should single-handedly draft every

single detailed policy proposal of this

third party without actually

yeah

he's he's extremely immature it's okay

uh he's used to league of legends but

anyway um destiny you're basically

trying to say that i need to personally

you know draft these points but all i'm

just you're saying oh it's so stupid

that you're just saying there should

just be a third party but that's just

because we know the current two parties

can't give expression to what the

american people want not on the basis of

the merit of these ideas and the

policies but because of these external

overgrowths on our american democracy

when i'm saying i want a third party

all i'm effectively advocating for is

american democracy i'm advocating for

democracy now i don't

claim to know what exactly the result of

that democracy is going to be but i

think a third party is the minimal

standard by which such a democracy can

be possible

right now i don't think we're living in

a in a democracy i think we're living in

a uh a political system that is captured

by special interests and an

establishment which doesn't represent

the interests of the american people

this is as simple as that

i i hope in the future if we ever do a

debate i really want to go like line by

line um i like i don't have anything i

really stay against you you're it's like

the vlog strat not even actually while

she's better this you're you're saying

so much that is really just devoid of

content okay like this idea of like i'm

advocating for democracy yeah guess who

else says that republicans and democrats

right this doesn't mean anything um you

know when you talk about like oh i don't

want a third party just for the right

earlier you literally admitted the whole

thing the whole the most unique thing

you were advocating for in a third party

was the existence of a third why you

literally said it right what was my

reasoning in the conversation what was

my reasoning if you if you want to

actually advocate for things and you

want to actually win people over okay

and you want to have this broad time

then you need to find issues because

this is where these political moments

start these political moments don't

start with some like random person

saying i'm gonna make a third party they

usually start with some problem that

neither like or or rap not even neither

that no entity is addressing at that

point in time this is where people on

the ground these are these moments of

action where people gain a great deal of

political power is when these moments

come up and there is nobody offering a

solution any of these problems for you

to sit here and say you're demanding

that i fix everything that i give the

perfect utility i'm not saying that at

all i just want like a couple broad

strokes that don't involve something

from the fucking 19th century or don't

involve you using the terms dialectical

materialism and meat and potatoes issues

and the same fucking paragraph

explanation it doesn't make any sense

wait you want to advocate

you should be able to have some like

broad issues some broad narrative

something you're pushing that people

want and you need to be able to defend

it if that's too much for you then

you're basically asking me to attack a

utopian third party that doesn't exist

that might exist at some point in the

future that you're asking people to

suffer real material harm for right now

to try to bring it into existence so one

two the first thing you're saying you

think it's somehow a contradiction

between talking about dialectical

materialism and meat and potatoes issues

when the whole point of dialectical

materialism is to be able to discover

what meat and potatoes issues are now

that it takes a great amount of

intelligence to discover

simple things is like it's it's

basically like it's like almost an axiom

of computers like that's how fucking

computers work you use a lot to get a

little it takes a lot it takes a lot of

complexity to discover simple things i

don't know like why you're acting like

it's such a huge contradiction but

regardless of that to actually address

what you said um

like i said you're saying that

oh everyone talks about american

democracy across the aisle well all

you're doing here is meta-narrativizing

the whole debate and like complaining

about not being able to go point by

point why don't you actually talk about

the content of what they mean by

american boxes when i say we don't have

current american democracy i mean

regardless of what the american people

want even if i ideologically disagree

with it it can't get passed because

there is an institutional and

establishment impediment uh the special

interests and so on and so on now if

they mean oh we're just fighting for

democracy like what do they mean by that

because clearly i mean something

radically uh different now you're saying

oh what is it you're risking for

americans to suffer so much material

harm for um i think it's very clear

that

again you haven't addressed the argument

about the issue of scale

right now

if the republicans win more people may

be harmed and

that's the argument you may make but

when you introduce the factor of time

and scale like

generations from now or even 10 years

from now or 20 years from now

your argument collapses what if

by not doing something now

should be wrapping up soon yeah

um

50 minutes

yeah

what if uh by not doing something now

you're risking uh so much for the future

you know you're meta-narrativizing

saying oh this is just like vosh and

this is just like this

but you can you can uh

stop cutting them off you can really

just focus on the actual content of the

argument you say oh you haven't said

much there's no content to your argument

you're just you're uttering so much

crazy right yeah then i accept yours if

you listen you can say there's no

content to my argument uh in which case

i'll say you just basically conceded to

me because okay so here's the question

you're just refusing to engage with

anything i've said round this out a

little bit okay do you want people today

to risk suffering real material harm for

a third-party gamble in the future which

people the people who don't vote on

behalf of averting their own material

do you want them to divert their vote to

a third party who are they on whose

behalf are they voting

you're making it seem like you're making

it seem like i'm telling like a homeless

guy oh no don't vote for the democrats

and make your life better those guys

those people who are suffering don't

vote

the people you're talking about who are

going to be harmed don't vote to

destiny

all i'm at let's try this again okay

this might be our next 15 minutes i

don't know if you'll ever answer this my

question is do you want people to suffer

real material harm for a third party

gamble in the future so telling somebody

who would vote one party to divert to a

third party and potentially suffer real

material time for a gamble of a third

party in the future

um people are going to serve suffer

regardless that's what i was saying

okay i i i i reject the framing of your

question people are going to suffer

either way i know that without you think

that the democratic party and the

republican party are making the same

offers the exact same material offers to

the american public in the long term it

doesn't matter

i'm not why do you keep you do you see

how you're dodging as fuck on all of my

because i reject the framing of your

question you're making it seem like

right now is the only um meaningful side

you go to vote right now that moment of

voting is a moment that exists in

history okay and one and one year later

not what destiny not a moment later but

like

almost a year later we still don't have

an infrastructure bill

so it's not in the moment

you don't vote just for right now

you haven't even passed the bill that's

going to affect these people's lives

okay how are people's lives going to be

affected bill passes are you going to

completely change your position on all

of this holy shit no i'm not because

they can't even pass the trimmed down

shitty subpar so-called infrastructure

bill that we have now god god knows the

one they're going to be able to pass and

by that time it's not even a it doesn't

even effectively carry out what it

originally intended to if the bill was

like 1.5 trillion dollars you think

that's worthless to the american public

no i in the long term there's nothing

impressive about

yeah there's nothing yeah well okay you

so destiny so you want to you want to

use the same standards for both of us if

i ask you a yes or no question you can

only do yes or no and you can't reject

it yes or no but just at least engage

with the question not like it doesn't

even matter the future is long like it

doesn't matter i refuse to reject you

hold on hold on hold on the

infrastructure bill there is absolutely

nothing impressive

about a government passing a 1.5 and

it's not going to be 1.5 trillion a 1.5

trillion dollar infrastructure bill

given the sorry just the absolutely

sorry state of american infrastructure

in regards to like the passing of time

if you look at china's infrastructure

even the infrastructure in certain

european countries

american infrastructure is absolutely

laughable so this idea that like this

watered-down bill is going to be somehow

impressive or a hallmark of why someone

had to go out and vote for biden is just

an extreme cope and also i don't see why

trump wouldn't have also maybe uh

conjured up some kind of infrastructure

built to pass maybe he would have had

his own who knows i mean i don't even

see what your argument is here i i i

like how you ask

you both have been very good when it

comes to moderating yourself so i gotta

go use the bathroom and since you've

both behaved i think you can deal with

that destiny it's your turn okay you

said you were gonna ask me a yes or no

question and you just no i didn't you

said you said uh you don't you agreed

with me that you don't have to answer

yes or no questions

yeah you

no i thought what you said is oh you

don't have to ask me a yes or no

question but at least address the

substance of my argument isn't that ad

verbatim what you just said

oh yeah but you made it sound like you

were about to ask me a question so shut

the fuck up dude you literally

i literally quoted you ad verbatim

saying you didn't want me to ask you an

uh yes or no question

you so earlier you believe

that um who is this guy that is trying

i'm a mod i'm gonna just make sure yeah

oh so destiny maybe wipe a towel off

your forehead you seem really sweaty and

nervous just letting you know

i'm getting my dude thanks though

um so

i the thing is i just i can't argue

against like the the nirvana third party

where you've given me no positions

you've given me no reason to think it's

going to succeed you're telling people

to suffer real material harms right now

or risk real material harms right now um

to vote for a hypothetical third party

in the future um or and then furthermore

you're going to make the argument that

the democrats and the republicans are

materially offering the same thing to

the american public right now if trump

would have passed an infrastructure bill

like this why wouldn't he have pushed

for that more rather than the tax reform

that just benefited the wealthiest

americans he got one major bill through

and that was it

um that's like saying why didn't obama

push for an infrastructure bill because

as the passage of time changes the

policy prerogatives change obama's the

worst experience because he pushed for

the aca that was his big legislation he

didn't push for an infrastructure bill

because because he could only do one

thing

trump did talk about the sorry state of

america it was like a political what did

he do what was his legislative priority

what did he pass maybe he would have

after 20 years maybe he would have after

2020.

you have one thing all i'm saying is i

don't know maybe he would have maybe he

wouldn't have but you don't know you

don't you don't know for certain whether

trump would have or would have not rich

of you to use the argument you don't

know for certain when you're advocating

people to switch their vote from two

confirmed parties to a hypothetical

third party in the future for something

that might be good i'm actually i'm

actually not really just saying people

should

vote for the third party i'm saying

people should focus people who have the

time to care about politics actively

like your listeners and and even you

yourself right you sit on your ass all

day and talk about fucking politics you

don't represent my ass all day you don't

but okay regardless you don't represent

the majority of people you your life is

mostly focused around talking about

literally the issues that i advocate for

are literally democratic issues who

currently yeah but but

use my issues but because because

destiny because you're not like someone

who's focused on like the way you make a

living is about politics okay so if if

your life can be dedicated to politics

all i'm saying is focus your energies

and your dedication on building a third

party no why the fuck would i focus on a

third party when i don't know any third

parties that are talking about the

issues that i think most americans care

about you should certainly well you

should you should there there are enough

like-minded people who agree that they

can't get what they seek to get done

through the current two parties and

those people should get together an

example of any of those issues

of what issues

what are things that you fuck i have to

scroll like okay there's there's a few

there's okay there's a few there's a few

there's a few there's um debt

forgiveness that's probably the biggest

one that i think can unite people across

the aisle it's the issue of big tech

monopolies and big tech uh censorship

um which is you know i guess a cultural

issue that people think people are

united on issues like debt forgiveness

yeah i think that forgiveness can i

think that forgiveness can unite this

country definitely

okay

um yeah i i think i think the question

is do you mean all debt or do you mean

like

just student loans i think well there is

a massive issue of just american people

being in debt right now and um

financial reform things of that nature

of housing reform that there's um

there we have a housing crisis in this

country right and i don't see how the

democrats or the republicans can address

that crisis in meaningful ways again

because the crisis is very complicated

oh yeah it's it's it's very complicated

because everything is just an objective

reality except when i decided to keep

saying

because because because everything

everything can be explained by me

deferring to other causes except when i

sit on and tell people they have to go

vote for biden if you want at that

moment

at

that moment particular cause so for

instance we can talk about housing being

a complex issue housing is complicated

primarily because the people that live

in a certain district are already ultra

privileged being in houses so in order

to uproot them you necessarily have have

to act in an undemocratic fashion to do

it which is something that's very

difficult to do in the united states

that's why when you take votes in areas

about like hey like should we expand

like multi-family housing or should we

open like a fuck ton of apartment

buildings well who are the people that

are most likely to vote in that area

it's not gonna be the transient

millennials that come in and out of work

jobs it's gonna be people that aren't

gonna leave industry in that area and

when you're talking about voting for

expanding housing in those areas guess

who that hurts the most it hurts the

most entrenched voters that are the most

likely to show up to the polls that are

the most likely to go to their city

council meetings so they're most likely

to stay there for long periods of time

that's what makes that issue like

complicated rap god calm down

rap god calm down just because you've

come to this conversation with zero

understanding of any of the policies

you're talking about please don't

project it on me this conversation could

have been entirely interesting in like

50 different ways just because you're

utterly clueless on everything except

for these weird fucking phrases that

have to do with fucking dialectic

materialism or whatever philosophy to

talk about doesn't mean that i came here

clueless to argue okay simmer down rap

god

rap god simmer down like you are calm

down calm down i'm on the ground talking

about real listen it's not eight miles

we're not on eight mile we're on twitch

okay so calm down i have to talk fast

listen you have to chill you have to

chill if you want there you go if you

want if you're interested in dialectical

materialism uh dm me and i'll set up i

can educate you and you can be my

student so i don't know why you keep

bringing it up you seem interested in

the ideas of dialectical materialism

yeah one sec and uh it should be like

five minutes

and uh

regard and you said okay i agree that

the housing crisis obviously it's

complex but

can the way we addre like is the

inability for us to address it because

of that complexity is what i reject yes

no i reject that i fundamentally reject

the third party then tell me how you

would go about doing it then i'll wait

yeah a third party can have a general

housing reform whose main linchpin whose

main policy prerogative is to make sure

americans can have affordable housing

and it can do that at the federal level

to ensure

that

at these local levels and with all these

differences between for example high

housing prices and these issues of

zoning can be addressed like for example

i know you don't like me mentioning

china but when china engages in

five-year plans for example i'm not

saying we're going to have our own but

it's just a broad policy prerogative it

does take into account the various local

realities and complexities that make it

impossible to just pass one bill that's

going to be a catch-all to solve like

the whole of the geographic and

demographic issues surrounding housing

reform so i don't see like how your

argument is relevant the fact that we

have a housing crisis in this country

isn't only because

um

uh the reasons you mentioned or because

like oh yeah

it's only about millennials who want to

move to big cities it's it's a it's

about people who don't have a

clear future of being able to have their

own homes and raise their own families

dylan you think this is just like it's

like the perfect third party like debate

like you just you speak these like

useless empty platitudes like well the

way that you do it is by passing a bill

that takes into account all those

complexities wow just okay so how how

are the democrats i just couldn't think

of that just do a big building listen

listen how how are the democrats

yeah

okay okay how are the democrats

so so you're saying the housing crisis

cannot be solved wait

i gave you an interrupt time to speak

jessie's going to have his interrupted

time speaking then you're both going to

do outros because we're going to wrap up

uninterrupted okay so destiny um i just

want to say that i also support really

huge complex bills that just solve all

the complex issues and i think those

bills are awesome i just want to be i

just want to make my position known on

that okay that's all i got okay

yes it is glitching out into the outros

i'll just do my outro

yep we're good okay yeah as an outro i'm

just going to address the point i never

said that you're going to be able to uh

create a bill that's going to solve all

problems all i'm doing is saying one of

the reasons we have housing crisis in

this country or at least one of the

reasons that the current political

establishment is inept in being able to

solve that crisis is because it's

captured by special interests like the

real estate mughals and oligarchs and

and financial institutions and things

like blackrock and a third party isn't

going to be handicapped by those special

interests in being able to address the

housing crisis so that's just one

example of what i'm where i'm coming

from what i'm talking about this a third

party isn't a guarantee all it means is

you have a fucking chance i have never

preached any guarantee whatsoever all

i've advocated for is a goddamn fighting

chance for the american people that's

all

destiny and then we'll have the vote the

judges will vote um when you talk to

people about third parties usually

they're pie in the sky dreams people

that don't have a good understanding of

how government works of how policies

work of why some of these issues are so

complicated uh i can empathize i feel

the same way i was a big ron paul

supporter abolish the fed and all that

shit when i was a freshman in college uh

it's really cool to think that there are

these really complicated issues that can

just be solved with one sweeping you

know federal legislative initiative but

unfortunately as you grow older and you

look at why things are the way they are

you realize these issues are really

complicated they involve you know

multiple people fighting on multiple

sides of issues in order to get like

things done slowly over time that's how

the american system is built and so long

as we genuinely remain divided as

americans on a lot of these issues the

government will necessarily remain slow

moving when it comes to solving these

issues we don't all agree on how to

solve these issues the same way in the

united states that's why there's such a

polarization of the parties that's why

there's so much gridlock in congress and

hopefully in the future this changes but

i know for a fact that the thing that

won't change it is fucking third parties

okay dylan i actually have to go so

do so i don't really care about the

belt or whatever so

we good

uh if you if you would like to leave you

can leave okay for sure yeah see you

later bye-bye

so

okay um

i gotta go guys uh

yeah i'm already running late here i

thought this was gonna be only like an

hour

but

i'm satisfied with the outcome of that

debate i'm gonna be uploading it to the

youtube

um

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