Infrared vs Cheshire Cat | Politically Provoked Debate 🚀 Infrared Content Catalog

all right so i'm your left wing host

brittany this is your right wing host

todd how are you

doing great brit how are you doing good

all right so yeah we started a little

bit late uh that was

that was on me but um we are going to be

debating

tonight a christian democracy versus

marxist socialism so let's bring on our

first

guest cat joshua kat how are you hello

i am doing well so yeah you want to

introduce yourself tell people where you

lie on the political spectrum

and where people can find you i guess

all right well i'm cheshire

cat i'm the most famous cat on discord

probably at the moment

i'm a christian democrat that is an

ideology that generally falls

center right we are pro-market but

pro-organized labor

or a pro-modern society but we also

don't forget our faith

um most people have referred to us as a

sort of

uh taking a christian view on ethics to

create a humane capitalist society

okay all right so next up we have you

know it's funny because

i wrote a tweet about um he is

the one person like that we've booked

the base for he doesn't even ask who

he's debating just

freaking comes and shows up um

how are you tonight haws um i'm good

i'm good i'm good and i'm ready to

rumble you know yeah you want to

introduce yourself tell people where you

lie on the political spectrum

and where people can find you amaha's

from the infrared show

um we're marxist leninists

uh simple as that

all right so we are going to start with

opening statements can be as little as

one minute no longer than five

about the topic and your stance after

that will open up the floor

uh for those of you watching if you want

to ask questions tag politically

provoked who your question is addressed

to

um ask them throughout the debate we'll

jot them down because there will be a

cut off at the end and once the cutoff

happens we will only accept super chats

so if you want your question read for

free get it in while you can

um after the q a we will go into closing

statements and final

thoughts so catboy you um you said you

have a bit of a long

you're probably gonna use your entire

time so why don't you get us started

with your opening statement

oh [ __ ] okay i'm going first all right

nervous

all right um let me just get to the

paper

uh all right so i guess i'll i'll take

my five minutes now

um in my opinion communism is an

ideology that is more often than not

forced on the people from those who

suffer under the luke

this boot of communism is justified

internally and externally

internally the communist finds its

justification in party dogma

the educating dictatorship is a turn

coined by

critiques of 20th century communism it

basically

explains an ideologically family which

sees its right to leadership

coming not by the consent of the

governed like i believe it should be

but internally by the perceived inherent

correctness of communist thought esri

zondetra is to lead the masses to a

revolution from above

whether they like it or not and

eventually when they can be trusted the

masses will finally have a say in it

externally communism is justified by a

series of failed promises and lies

the communist economy grows quicker than

any others this is a lie

the communist despot offers a better

life than any other

this is too a lie the communist promises

to be more peaceful than any other

also lie the communist promises to be

more careful manager

well in my own land of birth romania the

communist dictatorship failed to even

supply their own government-managed

breadlines with bread

it was a [ __ ] show in many debates such

as the one we are having

today i hear one argument i'm not

defending the entire soviet system or

any of its failings as a whole

i just have to admit that the centrally

planned economy

is more successful and it's a better

system

in my view this is a bad justification

as an empathetic man and as a christian

this seems heartless to me

ignoring human suffering in favor for

the good and efficient economy sounds

like something

your evil bourgeoisie should be doing

not anyone purporting to be for the

common people

luckily you aren't your only option

christian democracy not only offers a

better physical life but a healthier

spiritual one

we support markets but also humane labor

laws and trade unions to allow the

workers to advocate for themselves

not be dictated to by a party elite the

christian democrat looks to the future

without ignoring our heritage our past

and our faith and most importantly we

envision a modern

world with neither heartless

neoliberalism nor despotic communism

uh that's that's my opening statement

um so we were here to talk about

the difference between so-called social

market economy versus marxist socialism

as experienced by those who lived under

it

well to begin i just want to um

clear any uh worries you have i'm not

here to actually say

no i don't defend the soviet union but i

just defend some abstract idea no i do

defend the soviet union i defend the

soviet union

i defend the communist states and i

defend the legacy of 20th century

communism so rest assured i am here to

defend

uh communist states so let's get that

out of the way

the second thing is uh you mentioned a

whole lot of things about communists

lying uh well almost all of the lists

you gave were a combination of things

you made up in other words things they

didn't actually directly

promise uh in order to lie about in the

first place

and also uh things i don't think would

hold up to scrutiny when we would

interrogate them

one by one in terms of uh whether they

were in fact

lies it's interesting that you come from

romania

a country whose story is basically

defined by the fact

that uh upon leaving the com con

the communist uh economic

lock and becoming indebted because of

imf loans a country completely ravaged

by the imf by international capitalism

and romania to this day

remains uh extremely underdeveloped

relative to the rest of europe

joining the eu did not do much for the

romanian people and the romanian

infrastructure left behind

and which is almost entirely by the way

left over from the communist

era um so i wonder if you are just

waiting for christian democracy to come

make romania

have new infrastructure and actually

have new industry

because whatever system romania has now

has not been able to accomplish that

um that is true romania has been purpose

uh i would say permanently scarred

by the mismanagement of the communist

regime um

i would also say that while people

polled positively for shoshesku now

i think at least half or almost half of

the population does

people overwhelmingly poll even more

positively for the old monarch

a lot of people see the communist as

using the soviet union to

topple our top alarm monarch topple our

constitutional monarchy although i'm not

a constitutional monarchist

um and basically pull us into the listen

to the red block

uh against our will well that again

was only popular because he was one of

the only nationalist communist leaders

in romania well here's a flight of law

to your arguments is the fact that

people lived under czech that are still

alive today

right no one lived under the monarchy or

maybe some do but they're completely

tiny marginal part of the population so

the memory of this monarchy and the

memory of chichester

differ because there's actually lived

experience behind

people who lived under romanian

communism i i

have no doubt that romanians are

fervently nationalistic people and

may have you know pulled well for the

monarchy

and whatever but people are not doing

that because they recall life

under the monarchy they do it just

because of romanian nationalism

uh well to be fair he pulled more

popular than the communist government

throughout the

uh throughout the 50s 60s 70s and 80s

he's still more popular can you show me

that's why he was famously he's was

banned from entering

uh romania by the communist party

because they were afraid

if he came and started giving speeches

people would start getting uppity

no i find it interesting that there's

actually polling data for that

in the under communist rule would you do

you have a source you can reference

my i'm feeling stupid because i did

mention i'm from romania but romania is

one of the

few countries i didn't actually collect

data for that wasn't economic

um i do have a a list of some of the

more

more popular to talk about uh communist

nations going over uh soviet nostalgia

because i figured we would be talking

about that

a lot um the ones they do have my main

arguments are going to be uh

revolving around the czech republic and

east and west germany

um well that i have hold on i didn't

actually

prepare for anything regarding the czech

republic so let's confine it to germany

which is what the initial

topic well the chakra pub is going to be

should be pretty easy i know i would

understand that you don't want to talk

about the czech republic because

communists came in and invaded them no

it's because i didn't do any preparation

for the czech republic a country i don't

even have a lot of familiarity with

i do have more i i you wanted to debate

about germany and uh

no i said those are those are a number

of nations they have so um

of the nations that i do know about that

i've collected data for this includes

east germany poland

the czech republic slovakia hungary

lithuania

russia ukraine and bulgaria

only russia and you russians and

ukrainians

still overwhelmingly support the um

the the communist regime the exact um if

you wanted to give you the source

um the exact polling questions um

were they were pulled in two separate

things um whether they

uh let me bring this link into our

private chat so you can see it

um if that's dead or not um is

2019. um earlier earlier polls

from the 2000s which had a larger and

more proportion

of people who actually lived under

communist states in all the countries

you mentioned had a much higher

proportion of people who

uh said that life was good

under communism well then you should be

able to find me those sources but if

you're not going

i can find any source right now for east

germany yeah yeah so why don't you

if you can find them for all of this

country that'd be nice you can um you

can find as well

so what is the debate okay what's the

debate called what is the gift of the

debate topic

what is the title of yours you were

given the debate talk you agree yeah

what is it

debate between socialism and christian

democracy

now christian democracy is one of those

ideologies which helped

in european reconstruction after world

war ii and reconstruction after the fall

of the year so i need you to calm down

buddy

the title was rein

uh ryan capitalism versus marxian

socialism

as regards the people who lived under

them and those people

uh can only be german

germany east germany versus west germany

no when the debate topic when we met in

regards to the people living under them

i was talking more about you know

human rights and stuff of the people who

would be living under these systems

in the past and theoretically in the

future it's not that we're only allowed

to talk about the opinions of elderly

people and

from these post-regimes that's fine but

people who didn't live under these

states are not really qualified to have

given actual fair judgment of what life

was like

under them do you think that only people

who

happen to be citizens under a current

regime are allowed to speak on it and we

can't look at data

did i say that i said they're not

qualified to give an accurate

representation of what life was like

under it because they did not actually

live

under those states it's pretty simple uh

well we can look at things we can look

at

quantifiable things and judge it that

way we're not going i'm not going into

well

people were sad under this regime i'm

not talking about that

um so to continue with my statement in

only russians and ukrainians poll as

supporting um supporting the old

communist dictatorships

they are the only two countries that i

listed

where people both were people both and

these were two separate questions that

were act people did not support the move

to multi-party democracy

and they did not support the move to

liberal markets however in east germany

poland the czech republic slovakia

hungary lithuania

all people overwhelmingly supported the

move

to a multi-party democracy

and the move to a liberal markets the

only outliers

is that the only outlier was bulgaria

right your data's wrong you have

false data 38 percent of people in the

east see reunification as a success

as compared to a majority who don't um

to this day 57 percent of east germans

consider

uh themselves to be second-class

citizens within germany so your polling

data

is either inaccurate or it is not an

actual full and fair representation

that's not the same question i i also i

understand because there's different

goals

yeah east germans do feel left behind

because as most other communist states

there have been economically

ravaged by the communist party which is

the lie i've been able to catch this is

a lie

right i would say the entire history of

the world begs to differ

well okay here's here's the tough thing

about talking to you about this right

you're jumping all over europe and i

would like to address

each country separately like i can talk

to you about why east germany

had the history it did very easily

because

the top germany shut the [ __ ] up

shut the [ __ ] up stop [ __ ]

interrupting me shut the [ __ ] up

east germany was going to be the topic

of this debate you want to run from

germany to the czech republic to poland

to ukraine to russia

all over europe can you stop

globetrotting and focus in on uh

what we're actually supposed to be

trying to find where i said germany

would be the topic of this debate when

we agreed to the topic of this debate

it's about

whether ryan so-called the social market

economy whether it's the one that

existed in west germany

or the one that exists now in unified

germany

better than marx university can be said

to be

better than marxian socialism as regards

to the people who lived under it stay

the [ __ ]

on topic i don't think you're the one on

topic all right ryan capitalism is an

economic system that has been used all

across europe and latin america now from

germany to the czech republic to austria

to the nordic model

to peru which is also the most fastest

growing economy in latin america right

now okay

we didn't agree to just talk about east

germany about and only talk about the

opinions of

of some of certain uh part of the

population we're talking about

the benefits to a society as a whole so

which country do you consider ryan

capitalism so we can be clear about that

um i would say czech republic germany

austria denmark and peru to be people

following the

only two of those are former communist

states are

adjacent to communist nations i know

west germany was not a communist

state but only two of those countries

are relevant to the actual debate topic

uh no no because i could i could still

point out economic history from these

people we could look at

even in these in in lesser developed

places like peru example

how they're doing when did peru have a

communist state when did peru

have a marxian socialist state uh they i

don't believe they had a communist so

it's not relevant we just

don't talk about peru we can't talk

about it because they didn't have

[ __ ] communism it's very simple

well we're not only talking about states

who are communist and then changes to

not communists we're talking we describe

the czech republic system

as brian capitalism i'd like to know

where you're actually getting that idea

from uh they're a country that

broadly they have a free market model

which broadly sees the government as

the government's job as um going into

the economy and

not over and not over regulating it

really stepping in just to

improve um competition that's extremely

ambiguous

you when you're talking about the social

media there's more stuff broadly also

supports

uh organized labor not necessarily

connected to the state

denmark would also be another good

example where they don't have for

instance

state mandates on on wages they just let

the

they let the um the organized labor do

it

for themselves there's actually plenty

of countries that fall under that

extremely

unproductive useless and fully ambiguous

description

i see that you got your description of

the social market economy from wikipedia

which says

austria the czech republic germany peru

poland

the united kingdom and the united states

or the united kingdom

well i wouldn't i wouldn't add to the

united kingdom the united states or

poland into it so i guess i have a

different so how do you know peru

is this how where are you getting this

idea that all of these other countries

can be qui listen when someone says ryan

capitalism they're talking about germany

they're

talking about the country that the rhine

river is in now they're talking about

christian christian democracy had in had

influence throughout

all of western europe i agree but when

you're talking about a system of ryan

capitalism

you're talking about germany because in

contrast to those other countries

germany is where uh christian democracy

actually took hold and was able to form

new institutions after world war ii and

so on and so on

that implemented uh its ideas

so i don't know where you're getting

this idea that countries like peru

can be qualified because it's only the

capitalism that people on the rhine use

it's called that because it was an

economic theory that was developed in

germany at first

under the christian democrats and has

been expanded throughout the rest of

europe and parts of latin america now

i also like to talk about how has it

been expanded other nations

[Music]

i'm a south american unificationist i

think that america should take more

control and take more of an interest i

don't care about your

ridiculous and bizarre ideas about latin

america would you call singapore and

south korea

ryan capitalist states they also have a

special connection between the state and

uh

unions and so on i mean most advanced

developed states

fall under the label of so-called ryan

capitalism as you've defined it

if you don't know i would say that's a

point in my favor that all these great

developed states no it's not

because there's no there's no need to

call it ryan capitalism or christian

democracy since

christian democracy and ryan capitalism

is entirely inessential no

south korea and singapore don't call

themselves

ryan capitalism so when you talk about

ryan

when you talk about ryan capitalism

you're talking about germany

uh you know if it makes if it makes you

feel better i'll just use social

capitalism then or you know what

you're a commie i'll give you a laugh we

can call it capitalism with a human face

you should know it i actually don't care

what you call it you can call it social

capitalism but if you want to change the

debate to

social capitalism the scope of this

debate is going to be

much more extensive than it was going to

be initially i even have to change my

stream title so it's not

actually about germany it's about the

entire globe

and the world over so we have to

actually cover well it's more about

western and north nordic europe i think

probably okay let's be let's be very

clear where do you want to confine

this specific debate no if it makes you

you know we can confine it um i want to

specifically talk about

czech republic as is where i i would

really like to talk about

uh japan would be another reason not

necessarily just for for

um you say japan uh well yeah well that

depends if we get into a conversation

about the soviet union's

market growth they want to bring up

japan because japan has grew

yeah because yeah that's what other

industries it's the only country that

ever grew faster than the soviet well no

no that's not true japan is the only

country that grew faster

and consistently and also had a higher

gdp per capita than the soviet union

there are a lot of other countries

had faster growth rates so if the one

except

portugal ireland all of western europe

all of northern europe

had faster what's the time what's the

time period you're talking about

um this would be 1970s this would be

yeah pre-19s

from like the 60s to the 70s yeah we all

know there was a present we all know

about the brezhnev stagnation so that

doesn't really count the soviet union

shut the [ __ ] up you said it was a lie

when communists stated that they had the

highest growth in the world

where for a long time the soviet union

did have the highest [ __ ] growth

it's until the brezhnev stagnation that

that shows they didn't have the highest

[ __ ] growth either

until the brezhnev stagnation yes no no

no they didn't have the highest [ __ ]

growth

even though they named two countries

that had higher growth before the

president of stagnation go ahead

uh let's see spain ireland and japan

no it didn't yes it doesn't only give

you a source i can give you a source

go ahead give me the source uh let's see

this should yeah here it is so these

actually have some really fancy colored

graphs you can look at where's the

source

i again i understand that it's in the pm

can i drop images in there

yeah this is the same [ __ ] source we

talked about in the last debate if you

actually read this correctly you didn't

i don't know what you didn't

read the [ __ ] graphs correctly this

little thing that i'm showing on stream

that's showing portugal spain all these

countries

this is not actually talking about the

rate of growth if you actually

read this correctly you're going to find

that the soviet union was higher

than everyone except japan here's the

actual relevant chart i'm showing it

right now on stream

i can pull it up if you want um

it's right here but it's it's you just

have to control that

but what about robert allen's from farm

to factory what if we consider the ussr

starting with stalin it's right here

and this is 28 to 70. so that's even

after

you're probably looking wait you're are

you looking at the gdp per capita

because those are a list of nations that

had a higher gdp per capita at times but

yeah i am also it's not measuring the

rate of growth

look your source says it then we find

the ussr was the

fastest growing economy except for japan

it's ad verbatim

on one of the on one of the upper graphs

gdp

growth this is a rate of growth over

time from

the 30s to the 90s

you don't know how to [ __ ] read

graphs you're so stupid holy [ __ ]

that is not the rate of growth

you see growth over time here on well

that's not the rate

it's not actually showing you do you

understand math

there's a difference between showing gdp

growth and showing the rate of growth

your own [ __ ] source

admits that from 28 to 70 the ussr was

the fastest growing economy except for

japan

oh i i understand the problem here all

right so when i'm saying growth over

time

yeah all right so you're right the

soviet union at certain at one period of

history had the

fastest growing economy the bulk of its

history not one period of its history

for the bulk of its history

no not for the bulk of it yes it lasted

70 years and from 28 to 70

it had the highest growth in the future

it didn't have the highest it didn't

have the highest growth until after

world war ii

first of all listen your

graph your own source admits that from

1928

to 1970 it had the highest growth except

for japan that's your source the one you

shared

right so again so you'd be saying that

the soviet union didn't have the highest

growth but again

this

well japan is growth tiny [ __ ]

country with like not even

a torture of the night of the natural

resources or the population

so what japan had a huge head start over

the [ __ ] ussr

japan during the meiji restoration in

japan's hyper industrialization yes it

is

so you're telling me that the [ __ ]

monarchist japan had a better system of

growth in

your system do you think that's good

that's did i say it had a better system

of growth

you just said you're saying it's not

fair we're comparing like the major i

don't know i know you don't understand

logic

so there's two different claims right

one is that it actually did have more

growth and the other is that it had a

better system of growth

if you if i were to concede to you that

it had a better system of growth

i would be saying that japan grew more

than the ussr

because of its system but i'm not

arguing that it grew

because why do you think it grew if not

because of the system that it had

considering that i'll tell you why

i will tell you why because japan

combined

a heavily state commanded or intervened

level

of uh economic control for the specific

purpose of actually achieving those

growth rates plus it had

nearly unlimited access to foreign

capital and foreign investment

so combining those two yes you're going

to have huge rates of growth

i would say that capitalist investment

is really good however japan

i would say actually deregulated its

economy

all right it came out of okay it came

out no let me finish it came out of its

isolationist period the state stopped

blocking people from investing

the state stopped people that state got

did away with its class system which

allowed merchants

and middle class please let's not get

into the meiji restoration you're just

wasting time i get it there's another

one

wait you brought it up i understand that

you want to get off no no because they

couldn't realize

that dude dude you need to [ __ ]

walk back what you just said and i'll

read it to you carefully

what i just said was that japan during

the period of the ussr's growth

had a heavy-handed state-led economy

which is true and you said well

technically during the meiji restoration

like

80 years before in the [ __ ] 1800s

they actually opened up

we don't want to get into the [ __ ]

history of feudal japan and samurais and

[ __ ] dude

restoration just [ __ ] stay on topic

for no reason we don't have we don't

have to talk about samurais and ninjas

dude we don't

we're not we're first off you what you

agreed it was meiji recipe

restoration period onward that's post

feudal japan we're not even talking

about samurais

because that was the that was the

opening of its industrialization

and obviously yes it opened up to the

world and it broke down all of its

feudal traditions and whatever but it

was a still

very state heavy-handed uh industrial

economic growth

that was an explosion for private for

yeah it was a huge private yeah

i'm not saying it was

either you're saying it was heavy-handed

by the state yes it was it was

objectively there was a heavy-handed

statement

intervention in the economy the united

states yes but japan did the best

compared to every country no not

compared to every country yes compared

to almost

any country in europe economy they

allowed they stopped with the [ __ ]

classes and they stopped with the weird

regulations how you could only

trade in a couple of listings that's

feudal japan it's not [ __ ] relevant

okay japan compared to europe had a very

heavy-handed state intervention in its

economy that is a [ __ ] fact

no one who actually argues in good faith

and doesn't want to waste people's time

for no [ __ ] reason

will argue against that fact yeah of

course the state didn't own

the enterprise i'm not saying they owned

i'm saying you say the state

intervention can you let me finish my

point you know

after the state stopped being so

interventional in my

system they allowed for more privacy one

gives a [ __ ] about this fake

dichotomy you're creating between you so

you think my actual argument here is

that oh yeah

state is good letting go is bad i'm not

even

[ __ ] saying that the reason i

mentioned it had heavy-handed state

intervention wasn't because i was trying

to make a ideological point about

socialism

but because of the fact that the

japanese state

made it its actual intentional and

specific explicit goal to industrialize

the country

ergo it had very high rates especially

when you

couple that with access almost near

unlimited access to foreign capital and

being able to take

advantage of those global uh

differentials in um

in capital okay it's it's a really

simple point but you decided to talk

about ninjas and samurais instead

i didn't really you were the only one

who was said ninjas and samurais yeah

because you're talking about [ __ ]

feudal japan in the way that

well i'm not seeing i want to talk about

japan post world war ii

uh there's this famous anecdote where

there's so many what you want to talk

about conservative party

won its elections in japan for the prime

ministership um

by promising that they would double and

they would double wages

within 20 years and they managed to do

it within like eight they managed to

double

the wages of the average japanese system

okay i'm gonna

okay so you wanna look at japan no the

conservative party promised something

and with magic

fairy pixie dust it actually

accomplished it well no with capitalist

investment

here's the thing here's what you're

missing okay and this is what happens

when you actually debate someone who

knows about history

when you actually look at the biggest

shut the [ __ ]

up shut your [ __ ] mouth you don't

even have a [ __ ] cam

up and you're [ __ ] disrespecting me

like this show your face dude

you want to [ __ ] interrupt me show

your [ __ ] face

second of all with your that wealth

shut the [ __ ] up that wealth and

prosperity you're talking about after

world war

ii was the result of the

american-designed bretton woods system

and it was a global system with

unlimited access to the world's

resources the world's

capital the world's industrial uh build

up and especially america's

uh foreign capital investment everyone

prospered from that [ __ ] system

uh who was it was in doubt right

everyone did prosper from capital

shut the [ __ ] up because that was most

of the world

that was mostly clearly not all of the

world because africa

middle east were you need to understand

something

do i yes you do what do i need to

understand

industrial is it countries that have the

burden of industrializing themselves

from scratch without being able to take

advantage of differentials in capital um

concentration globally they're going to

have

objectively a harder time than countries

that can actually participate and take

advantage of those differentials in

other words

surpluses produced by uh initial

um concentrations of capital can be used

to invest in other countries other

countries can benefit from those

investments and on and on

the process goes so the question is

why wasn't the soviet union able to

acquire foreign investment no why

weren't they able to invest in their

other companies

the soviet union had to industrialize

itself

from scratch it couldn't take advantage

of foreign capital in the ways

that the countries you're talking about

could well why didn't they the soviet

union specifically blocked the eastern

poland

entering the system and taking loans

from the west

because virgil poland czechoslovakia

all of these nations wanted to get

investment from the united states and

from the west

the soviet union told them not to

otherwise they would be kicked out of

the red block keep talking keep talking

keep talking you want to talk more

why are you so pissy about this holy

[ __ ] these are so [ __ ] annoying

i'm sorry you don't know how to shut

your mouth straight economies

i didn't even hear anything you said

because you interrupted me i turned you

what tuned you out

and that's what's going to keep

happening the soviet union didn't

acquire

foreign capital investment because a

it couldn't because it was politically

encircled and for political reasons

excluded from the world market

the second reason is the soviet union

wanted to have

national sovereignty and

the states that would have invested in

the soviet union

would not have done so under those terms

and conditions

so the soviet union did have the burden

of industrializing its economy

from scratch so it could retain actual

sovereignty and actual independence

and basically have its own source of

industrialization rather than taking

advantage of the

prior and precedent forms of

industrialization now there's countries

like china that went

down a different path and took advantage

of the prior forms of industrialization

that happened in the west and

they used that to industrialize

themselves after deng's reforms

but the soviet union was not in a

position to do anything like that at

that time so the soviet union had to

carry that burden itself

are you done can you put your thumb in

your mouth while i speak now

since you just [ __ ] disrespected me

go ahead all right okay um so

the the soviet union can blame itself

for not being able to take investment

because

during the reconstruction period for

four years after

the after the war america primarily and

the united kingdom basically had a no

questions asked policy where they would

give you

basically handle your state budgets for

four years no questions out you didn't

even need to be indebted to them

the soviet union specifically blocked

itself they refused to take part in it

and then they blocked um they blocked

every other eastern bloc nation from

taking part in these investments later

on as well

why what why would the soviet union

block all of these other nations who

weren't their own threatened them to

stop them from getting investments

because of some apparent sovereignty

that they would be losing

only to later on rip their own economic

their own industrialization out for them

to bring back to the soviet union and

invade the [ __ ] anyway

why does the soviet union care so much

about sovereignty if it's going to trips

around the rest of eastern europe and

[ __ ] invade people constantly

whenever they try and

liberalize them i don't think it's

because they cared about sovereignty

okay well there's three bullet points of

absolute stupidity that i just heard

the first one is that the soviet union

was pledged to some

unconditional principle of sovereignty

in the abstract

i never said that actually i said the

soviet union itself wanted to be

sovereign

the soviet union didn't care about the

sovereignty of other countries

which i'm going to contest that is

doesn't actually say anything

about my initial point that the soviet

union wanted its own

sovereign industrialization the second

bullet point of stupidity

is that if you think that the only

reason the soviet union exited bretton

woods is for some ideological or

irrational reason you just don't [ __ ]

know anything about bretton woods and

all of the strings that were attached to

the american global monetary system

soviet union didn't want to be part of

bretton woods or america's plans for the

world

because the soviet union didn't believe

that it was a fair

political division of power globally it

gave too much

political power to america and yes for

purposes of sovereignty

the soviet union did not want to enter

into it

as for the soviet union preventing all

of these other european countries

from entering it the actual political

relationship between

the soviet union as a center and the

communist parties that

took power in the eastern european

states is much more subtle than you're

trying to say is with the soviet union

directly commanding them obviously there

was a central will that was coming from

no it was not shut the [ __ ] up shut the

[ __ ] up

it wasn't shut you're lying first off

they invaded

hungary over market liberalization the

communist party of poland

shut the [ __ ] up can you mute this

[ __ ] literally the communist parties

of the eastern bloc

kept having to go back to moscow to get

permission every time they want to do it

i'm not gonna let you say anything the

audience doesn't [ __ ] hear anything

you're saying

shut your [ __ ] mouth

when it came when it came to um

there's two another two bullet points of

stupidity how did

the communist parties seize power in um

europe obviously it was because of world

war ii that's no one's contest

no that was not true the communist

parties and first of in many countries

they literally just

did a coup threatening the democratic

establishments of the countries

that if they did not give the communist

party's undue government power

the soviet union would invade them they

did the coup in check

no this is absolutely you're running

away from the debate you're running away

from the democratic

and you don't want to [ __ ] hear me

[ __ ] your skull so you [ __ ]

interrupted me

so i couldn't finish my [ __ ] point so

you could go on your stupid [ __ ]

tangent

shut the [ __ ] up you're not lying this

is not the soviets had some state

control because

no one hears what you are saying no one

hears what

shut the [ __ ] up shut the [ __ ] up shut

the [ __ ] up how many [ __ ] times

have you [ __ ] interrupted me midpoint

you [ __ ] interrupt me

where the [ __ ] is how you're going to

get like who the [ __ ]

shut the [ __ ] up shut your [ __ ] mouth

you don't even let me finish my [ __ ]

point

is anyone moderating this can we just

take

turns and i can speak we can yeah we can

we can move it into that if it's not

going to

finish what do you guys want to come up

with go ahead we'll mute them you finish

your point

let me finish my point what an annoying

[ __ ]

okay so the reason i said the communist

parties acquired power in eastern europe

as a result of world war ii

was because the soviet union

invaded those countries to reach

germany to reach berlin okay so that was

world war

ii and as a result the soviet occupation

made it easier for communist parties to

acquire power now the details of how

they acquired power i don't care to talk

about it

because it's not relevant right now

there's so much we have to get to first

but i agree it wasn't it wasn't simply

because of some uh

some you know impartial democracy or

whatever

will of the people yeah it was because

of world war ii and the soviet

invasion i'm not [ __ ] denying that

but

it's a myth to think that it was a form

of direct control from the kremlin to

these communist states

i mean to these communist parties it's

just not how it [ __ ] worked

there was an implicit understanding that

soviet union was in charge and it was

the leader

but there these communist parties

had a degree of autonomy and had a

degree of sovereignty

um one of the important reasons why

these states

some of these states uh were forced into

these

economic agreements with the ussr is

because

the soviet union believed that it was

owed reparations because many of these

countries participated in the invasion

of the ussr alongside the germans

the third thing is something you

mentioned i forgot what i was going to

say even before oh yeah the thing about

bretton woods

you're saying the soviet union forced

these countries

do not allow them to sign the agreements

to bretton woods

but since these countries are already

compromised by communist coups anyway

what does that even matter can you show

evidence that the communist states

wanted to join

bretton woods and furthermore

it's dubious to claim that

all of these communist states were

result of a direct

ooze and soviet intervention and

otherwise would it wouldn't have been

able to acquire power

because there's clear examples of

communist states throughout the history

after world war ii who broke with the

soviet union romania actually is a great

example of that yugoslavia is a clear

example of that and albania is an

example and there's

probably uh someone missing or something

but yeah

another thing um that i finally wanted

to get to is

you said something extremely stupid

about hungary

you said that the reason for the soviet

intervention in 56 in hungary was

because the soviet union

didn't want hungary to have a liberal

market economy

the soviet union didn't give a [ __ ]

about what kind of economic system the

hungarians wanted to adopt

what the soviets were worried about was

that hungary was going to go over to the

west

so it was all geopolitics they didn't

give a [ __ ] what kind of [ __ ]

economic system they have

and the evidence of this is the fact

that after

the events of 56 a much more moderate

communist government

acquired power in hungary and they did

implement a degree of marketization and

whatever

relative to other communist states

especially the soviet union

actually if you look at the variance of

the diff

how these systems across the communist

states in eastern europe were different

you'll realize that this idea that

there's just one type of

state control so it's a complete

[ __ ] almost all of these countries

had a private sector they had private

industries

and uh the picture the picture you're

trying to paint is completely inaccurate

okay

all right all right yeah now go ahead

you got bretton woods

how long are you going to let him around

can i speak now all right make sure it

goes

you got it yep you got it all right

so i understand that he wouldn't want to

get into the details of communist

leadership or

communist taking power in eastern europe

because largely the history of communism

in most of the world but especially in

eastern europe has been completely

anti-democratic

has been forced from the top down onto

the workers who are unwilling to do so

some of these details we can get into in

1948

that i know very well the communist

party of czechoslovakia

carried out a coup specifically backed

by moscow

over the democratic state of

czechoslovakia though they only got

between 20 and 30 percent of the vote in

their previous elections which is

granted

the highest percentage of popular

support

any communist any communist group has

ever gotten

when putting it up to an actual free

election so fair enough on them

instead of engaging with the other

people who are also democratically

elected by the workers

instead of engaging in a democratic

system because apparently

these people who think they represent

the masses are so afraid to actually let

the workers of democratic saying things

they could against the democratic state

overthrew it locked up

and assassinated and tortured and

murdered their political opponents and

turned it into a backwards dictatorship

in bulgaria it was the same story the

communist party failed in the elections

they got support from moscow moscow

acquiesced even offered them military

support if the coup did not go well

and the bulgarian communist party took

control of the state

locked up their political opponents and

had them shot they

for a moment allowed the peasant small

landowning party a peasant party

to mold with the communist party to form

some sort of

uh popular left coalition government but

a few years later they even

executed the more liberal members of

their own party

in romania the communist party

absolutely

failed their democratic elections and so

they got with

acquiescence from moscow they threatened

the monarch

to give them more to take over the

government

they threaten the [ __ ] monarch of

romania to take over the government

to do away with the elected results and

to give the communists more power in

parliament and a few years later

they were also couped as well and poland

the communist party did

miserably they actually begged the

soviet union

not to invade them because they thought

they could have a nice election

this is a fun fact that while the soviet

union was pushing through poland

a country they attacked without

provocation engaged in genocide against

helped the nazis invade and while they

were fighting the nazis

they were engaged in a guerrilla war

with the poles before the nazis were

even defeated because they wanted to

stamp out polish national pride

the polish communists did so abysmally

in the elections they had to go out

through a second round of voting

with the communist party stuffing

ballots

and um intimidating voters and they even

failed then so with acquiescence from

the communist state

they cooed the government started

rounding at political mode and started

shooting people

this is a history of communism in

eastern europe now

with regards to some of the other

economic developments and stuff

countries that specifically wanted to

gain

western economic development they wanted

some investments were

poland the baltic states and hungary all

specifically wanted more

economic development from the west

because they weren't getting it from the

their fellow communists because as much

as it's supposed to be this sort of

unified utopian bloc

they really [ __ ] destroyed each other

it's hardcore game theory there

the soviet union did not give them

permission and even blocked them from

going into negotiations over

international policy with the united

states

until the soviet union was specifically

involved

um a good example i like to use in so

far as development

is the success of czechoslovakia after

the fall of communism now

czechoslovakia is an interesting example

after the fall of communism

um a lot of this happened mostly because

the soviet union finally came out and

said that we are not going to be

invading other countries if they start

to liberalize

you guys have to defend yourself and so

most of these communist parties did a

sneaky thing

they open up free elections and then

they went through this long process of

rehabilitation as this actually

very pro-democratic liberal party in

czechoslovakia that didn't happen

in czechoslovakia the communist party

refused to modernize

and refuse to develop over time they

remained the communist party of old

they've been kept out of all coalitions

at this point because they're persona

non grata for the absolute misery

they've reaped on the population

but because of that czech slovakia has

had a new

a unique position as being able to

develop their economy and their

government their systems of democracy

without

any um without any intervention from the

old order they've been able to

completely remake their system

and because of that their education

their life expectancy

their economic development has increased

five-fold even though

they so a smaller nation was able to do

much better than the communists were

just through market liberalization more

democracy and

independent trade unions of the workers

which is what i'm advocating for which

is much better than you've ever been

able to offer anyone

okay so back to you how's you got a lot

there 1948's

check bulgaria we actually got a lot

going on

so i find it really peculiar so in terms

of the political history of the

communist states in europe

you are able to air all of their dirty

laundry and all of the horrible bad

parts of the history while ignoring the

good of course

within the time span of a an online

debate

but if i were to air the dirty long

laundry of the west

we i couldn't fit it in the time tan of

a debate it would take

days it would take weeks it would

probably take months right

i have to talk about operation gladio

all of the coups orchestrated by the uk

and the us

and all that [ __ ] going on i

wouldn't even have time to exhaust the

list

you know so the very fact that you had

time to say all of that

really shows that you really don't have

much another thing

though is that let's go point by point

by what i was able to capture from your

um

your uh unconstrained rant

so you claim that the communists seized

power in the form of coups

well this is an extremely misleading

thing to say because

the states that the communists could

right

um discerning whether they actually had

the will of the people behind them is

extremely difficult because of the war

time conditions in times of war

especially when you're invaded by a

foreign power

um the legitimacy of a state

uh breaks down so these chaotic

conditions do not

allow for a situation in which you can

establish some kind of liberal

democratic system in order to decide

which party or whatever should take

power and mind you

many of these countries romania and

bulgaria included

participated in the axis invasions of

the ussr

they were conquered and invaded by the

ussr as a result

so the situation is nowhere near as neat

and clear as all these were flourishing

democracies

and the communists came and just took

them over at the expense of the will of

the people well the will of the people

was not actually

clear whatsoever you said the communists

did very poorly

in the elections that they held well

i don't actually know which specific

elections you're referring to because

you didn't actually

cite anything and some of those counts

like in the case of poland i don't there

was a

election in poland in 1947 and the

communists

came out on top i don't know what

actually you're talking about so but

that aside you know um

the idea that liberal democracy

is the sole or even exclusive vehicle by

which

the actual will of a people can be

discerned and tested

discovered i would contest that view

especially in the

circumstances of a wartime economy but

to be quite frank with you i

frankly don't give a [ __ ] about

democracy i don't think states acquire

their legitimacy

from asking the consent of the the

people

a state does not could not possibly

arise in that way whatsoever what

actually matters is the extent to which

people tolerated those states and um

the people uh participated in

overthrowing them

now let's see

um yeah you mentioned it at the czech

coup the romania coup in the bulgaria

coup

you don't have time to go into the

details and the circumstances of all of

those separate

situations but i find it really funny

that you're just throwing as much [ __ ]

against the wall as you can just waiting

to see until something sticks

um listen when i said we don't have time

to go into detail about these things

you interpreted that as oh this is your

achilles heel you're scared to talk

about this dirty history

no it's just that a i didn't come

prepared to talk about those

very specific historical events and all

the details surrounding them

and b even if i did it would it's too

much ground to [ __ ] cover anyway

you're not actually staying on topic uh

about what the

actual topic was initially about and

furthermore it's really this is uh the

crooks i guess of the lie

of what series of lies you just spewed

when you said that the soviet union

invaded poland unprovoked

excuse me are you trying to say that

after

poland was invaded by the nazis and the

soviet union had to

um protect its eastern front that this

was an unprovoked invasion of poland

excuse me are you trying to say that

when poland signed a non-aggression pact

with nazi germany in 1934 and signed a

treaty sorry with nazi germany in 1934

that this didn't signal the fact the

soviet union had an unproduct

protected eastern eastern front excuse

me are you denying the fact

that poland stole soviet land during the

civil war

and engaged in a tyrannical rule against

ethnic minorities that

welcomed the soviets with open arms

excuse me

are you trying to say that the soviet

union engaged in a genocide against the

polish people

a lie so outlandish and ridiculous not

even the most

fervent anti-communist historians have

the gall to

say something like that finally you talk

about the success

of czechoslovakia which is extremely

interesting actually because

czechoslovakia might just be the only

country in europe

that you can find a degree of success

and

a degree of um let's say

succession from the communist era that

satisfies the population that actually

lived under communism

but the truth is that for the

overwhelming majority of ex-communist

states in europe

the infrastructure the fundamental means

of production the factories the ins

even institutions the culture and the

way of life

was inherited from the communist era and

capitalism has been proven

to be unable to replace those

if uh so-called european capitalism is

so great

why are they still using the

infrastructure created under the

communists why can't they create their

own infrastructure adapted to the modern

times why have they become colonies of

germany and western europe riddled with

debt

and purposefully underdeveloped to the

benefit of german industry

and at the expense of their own

industries why is it

that there is such a high degree of

nostalgia

and positive views among the people who

actually lived under communist states

to this day in eastern europe

why is it that

to this day a measure of right-wing

populism

widespread discontent and social ills is

almost directly correlated

with the fall of communism for example

in east germany

you'll find the rise of right-wing

populism in the same place

now you attribute this to the so-called

uh

desolation and ravaging that the

communists did in the 20th century but

the data doesn't actually back up any

desolation or ravaging

the data backs up extremely high rates

of growth

the providing of a basic level of

dignity and a standard of living

which admittedly um

ended in crisis but that crisis did not

comprise

sorry the the crisis resulting from the

brezhnev stagnation to clarify which one

but that that that crisis specific

economic crisis

didn't comprise the majority of life

under those communist states

and that's why even for people who

endured and lived under those crisis

they still remember life under communism

rather fondly

okay good cat oh yeah i feel like he's

getting way more time than me holy [ __ ]

why don't we

have timing yeah well why don't we do it

like where we'll have um like you know

two minutes uh

oh no two two don't give me two minutes

after that [ __ ]

i need a lot more time to go over all of

that sort of stuff all right well then

after that and then after that you guys

both had long rants and we can go back

to two minutes yeah

okay um so starting

with two of the more egregious things

you said i'd like to start with

the fact that he thinks you don't

actually need democracy to represent the

people

and this other statement he made about

states getting their legitimacy by

placating the people

with material goods oddly materialistic

and i would say capitalistic of him

but i would say i it's this is language

i don't understand

in my view as a christian democrat as an

economic and social

and a political liberal at least i'm

socially conservative

i believe that the only right any state

has to exist is

the right is given to it by the consent

of the people that it exists over

um i find it interesting and i think

it's telling that the communist here is

saying

that we don't actually need multi-party

democracy to understand the world of the

people we don't actually need their

opinion we just need to placate them

this is a language of fascism that's why

i think that communism is in its

in true form fascism is just honest

communists

communists wish they could be as

effective as the fascists and taking

state power

now maybe i don't understand this

language because christian democracy

never had to be forced onto anyone with

the bayonet the way communism had to be

and my people the people of germany of

austria of denmark

peru although you don't like me bringing

up latin america they voted for my

beliefs they continue to vote for my

beliefs and they will probably continue

to vote for my beliefs in the future

and czechoslovakia during the velvet

revolution where they did not

dismantle the communist party like they

did in another stage the communist party

was simply allowed to take place

in the open and free election the

communists lost

and they continue to lose their persona

non grata

and so far as coalition building nobody

wants to touch them

and the tiny minority of the population

votes for them compared to

all of these other political parties

that are newer and are less established

um a few other things i understand that

you're very mad every time i bring up

the actual particulars of how communists

have actually behaved when they've taken

state power

um if i was a communist i wouldn't want

to talk about communist

history either because that history is

of totalitarianism

is of genocide is incredibly bloody and

this is a time period where the rest of

the world at least in western europe

had sort of moved on from that while

western europe was more focused on

commercial goods for its citizens on

health care on creating better education

systems and creating entertainment

the soviet union was still trying to

mass murder people and

figure out how to placate the masses so

they unlike chauchesku

wouldn't be thrown out in the streets

and shot like a [ __ ] the way they

deserved

now one of the worst things i think you

spoke about

overall was the odd genocide denial for

the polls

now first off you talk about the soviet

union

as if you don't remember the molotov

ribbon trough pact

the soviet union sided with the nazis

they the soviet union offered oil

rubbers and other necessary materials

for the german war effort

and in a runabout way the germans would

return that favor

by offering them weapons which they

would then use to genocide the poles

along with the nazis it was so bad that

the soviet union

when the katine massacre was found or a

number of other massacres were also

found

by the western powers tried to blame it

on the nazis

and luckily through international courts

and

through historians and data collectors

we figured out who really murdered all

of those innocent people

the poll the polls were genocided by the

soviet union it was a small genocide it

was calculated to try and take away the

national spirit of the polish people

it was called the polish operation

within the soviet union

before the war with poland

in which the soviet union and nazi

germany took sides

to bully a smaller power they began to

round up torture and execute

ethnic polls within the soviet union the

death rate um well the number of deaths

are not exactly known

because a lot of that we'll never know

because of where they were buried

we won't ever figure it out but the

estimated

number of deaths are somewhere between

200 to 400 000

polish civilians murdered within the

soviet union proper

and then when the soviet union invaded

poland killed within their own country

um by the nkvd and various other organs

of the communist state

this was murder ethnically based because

the soviets wanted to crush the national

spirit of smaller powers that they

wanted to invade

i think it's disgusting that you deny

this genocide happen and i think it's

weird

that you act as if poland was deserving

some sort of retributive

genocide from the soviet union when the

soviet union

out of poland in the soviet union the

soviet union was far more

a partner with nazi germany they gave

them oil rubber

they helped rebuild the german military

when the germans were

trying to secretly rebuild their air

force and their tanks

um the soviet union

made deals within the robins molotov

rivenfront practice not only divided

poland but the rest of eastern europe

and the baltic states the soviet union

days before they were invaded by nazi

germany

sent deals to hitler asking him if he

could engage in a co-invasion

of turkey the same way that they did the

polls

i understand that you would lie about

this because it doesn't make communists

look bad but i would say

that this is simply the natural alliance

between two

ideologically very similar groups the

fascists and the not the fascists and

the socialists in fact i mean

the marxist socialists teaming up with

the fascist socialists

to ethnically cleanse regions and take

them for their own

is not surprising at all i i guess we

can go back to the back and forth now

okay all right i have to respond to all

of that now

i actually have 10 bullet points i'll

just go through it i'll just

so um wow

so i guess we're moving on odd so you

said it's oddly materialistic and

capitalistic of me i don't know news

flash we marxists are materialists

i don't know why you're saying that's

some kind of irony um

i don't really care about your larp

christian democracy cope

christian democracy is a phrase that has

relevance in certain

european countries if you think

christian democracy is going to save

romania

good luck uh you say that

you're you're spouting some dogmatic

political philosophy [ __ ] about

legitimacy of the gov of states and

political legitimacy

this is all prejudice of 18th century

liberalism

which is fully outdated as of now

obviously states cannot acquire their

legitimacy

from some kind of election because it's

a chicken in the egg question it begs

the question of where that state came

from no state ever came into being

because someone went around asking

people

what they want to vote on states come

into view into being by means of

violence that is how every state in the

history of mankind

came into being certain states are

multi-so-called multi-party democracies

where the population takes turns uh

voting on

which group of thieves and corrupt

ruling class representatives are going

to

con them and scan them but the

fundamental foundation of statehood

remains intact

okay um now you accuse me of

using the language of fascism when i say

this

well i have a question for you did

fascists cease power in communist states

or liberal democratic states

after all weimar germany was a

multi-party

liberal democracy a multi-party liberal

democracy

mind you that the christian democrats

actually had a party with him

the conservatives in germany uh

hindenburg were the ones who enabled

hitler and allowed hitler to come to

power in germany

so for you to accuse communists of being

the same as fascists

begs the question of why it is that

bachelors can only manage to come to

power in liberal demand

democratic countries uh you mentioned

peru as an example of people voting for

your beliefs peru just voted for a

self-proclaimed marxist leninist pedro

castillo f's in the chat

we know communists lose elections in

eastern europe there's reasons for that

that go far beyond

reasons you gave and um

know the particulars of how communists

behave that you're saying i'm trying to

cover up as you've mentioned them are

very specific to post-war

europe f's in the chat for that one

you're talking about mo

totalitarianism genocide and

authoritarianism and everything

anything you say about the communist

states has nothing on the history of

european imperialism and american

imperialism

especially during the cold war where

america backed

several coups and ruthless military

dictatorships and genocides

in the name of stopping communism give

me a break and

six what forms of mass murder can you

refer to after the 50s you claim the

soviet union was defined by that

afterwards

i would love to see you refer to actual

examples talk about the molotov

ribbentrop pack that was in 1939 that

was after all of the western powers

rejected non-aggression treaties

with the ussr it had to resort as a last

resort to buy itself time the soviet

union was not prepared to go to war with

nazi germany in 1939

it buying time for itself is not the

same as enabling and joining in an

alliance with the nazis

as for the claim about them trying to

divide europe this is an extremely

misleading claim they weren't trying to

divide europe to control it they were

trying to secure

borders and frontiers from invasions in

other words

they were trying to negotiate with the

germans about which countries they

can and can't invade it has nothing to

do with the soviet union

seizing power the captain massacre even

if it was perpetrated by the soviet

union and this is contested by some

scholars like professor grover fur

is not an example of a genocide it

targeted the polish intelligentsia not

because they were polish but because

they had a specific relation to the

prior polar state

uh you claim that polls were rounded up

tortured and executed

soviet union this is just a plain lie

substantiated and baseless you say the

death toll

is four hundred thousand or something or

two hundred thousand also one hundred

percent made up

um the turkey allegations need to be

substantiated with evidence

and now you're saying that communist and

fascists have an alliance i have a

question for you who supported the

fascists in europe

america who were the who were who was

more likely to support fascism

communists or

christian democrats at the time the

truth is is that liberals and

conservatives and right-wingers and

nationalists all across europe

enabled and implicitly or explicitly

supported fascism

against the so-called communist menace

that is actually the facts

that are on the record thank you very

much

um insofar as

fascism only being able to take hold in

liberal democracies i would say that's

false

the weimar republic was the only liberal

democracy that fascism took control of

the it's the fascists in italy took

control of a monarchy the fascists in

italy

i mean the fascists in spain took

control of the monarchy the fascists in

japan took control of the monarchy

the fascists in austria well there

wasn't really a democracy in austria

before the fascists took control of it

um i would say that's a bad point

because

whether or not the fascists took control

of

one liberal democracy it was the liberal

democracies that eventually bound

together and destroyed fascism

um the

there's a lot of other [ __ ] so the um

the the borders thing for justification

of

the invasion of poland and then the the

molotov ribbon trough pact

for people that were so worried about

german aggression it's weird that they

continuously set germany

military equipment oil rubber

industrial steel factory equipment even

helped

train german tankists and builds german

tanks within the soviet union proper

within their organization and the soviet

union was only doing this before

doing this until the communists could

reign and liberate the people of

the that the germans would occupy why

then as a good faith effort did the

soviet union

round up jews and other communists who

had fled nazi germany

to poland round them up and send them to

hitler to be executed in the death camps

as a show of good faith and cooperation

if they were only worried about

self-defense why didn't they

help the polls during the invasion and

not kill polish soldiers and kill polish

civilians

the only reason the western powers

didn't want a

a a special mutual defense treaty with

soviet unions because

other states which had made up these

sorts of unions with the soviet union of

romania was an example

hungary was an example every other time

the soviet union did this

they used it as a pretense to steal land

from these people

you mentioned that poland still land

from from russia are you really so

bent and and are you really that pissy

over the polish soviet war

where the soviet union spent its time

invading other countries again they do

this a lot invading all of the other

countries of eastern europe unprovoked

because they wanted to stop these other

nations from breaking off of czarist

russia

and declaring their own independent

republics

are you just really pissy that they got

their asses handed to them from all of

these tinier nations

i mean that's the fault of communism

purging itself so often

um oh there's a there's a whole lot of

other stuff

um

there's i don't know it seems weird that

that you keep ranting about uh how you

don't actually need the people say

to actually lead the people i i would

say that yes it is fascist language to

claim

that you somehow know the will of the

people and you can lead them and you can

be the most democratic organ of state

power

but you don't actually need a democracy

they don't actually have to vote on it

that's very odd to me but again you know

i come from a background

of um of democrats of people who wanted

to expand voting rights to the oppressed

to expand protections to those people

expand human rights

i myself am part roma um i have no love

for the old empires of europe

they've really [ __ ] with us there's a

reason why there aren't any gypsies in

france anymore

um again what aboutism to the entire

history of europe since

bc up until

the soviet union i mean there's going to

be a lot of [ __ ] there what i'm saying

is that the soviet union or communists

should have at least known better if

you're claiming

to be a better people and claiming to be

able to

better offer people better lives under

your system

i would say that again the monarchist

history of europe was shitty however

christian democrats and other democrats

helped rebuild europe after european

reconstructionism under true democracies

and they were able to do it

and they're able to do it and they were

able to give people better lives

better educations better health they

were able to connect them to the wider

world in a way that communism has never

been able to do

okay back to you house okay let's go

wyman republic was not the only country

because italy wasn't an absolute

monarchy it was a constitutional

monarchy yet another lie

spain was also not an absolute monarchy

in the time but even if it was

the whole spanish civil war resulted

from the conditions of spain

becoming a republic that's where the

fascist reaction came from but after

franco took power actually

it's kind of ambiguous to call spain

fascist it's i think it would be

contested the fascist philanthropy

didn't actually take power

um and the only evidence you need that

the soviets were worried about german

aggression is that

that's all they ever talked about for

most of the 1930s after hitler took

power

and it's proven by their attempt to form

security alliances with france and the

uk

and poland too by the way why would they

[ __ ] do that if they weren't scared

of german aggression or they didn't

anticipate german aggression clearly

they

did the reason the soviet union had to

engage and trade with the germans after

the molotov ribbon trump act

is because a they need the materials

because guess what those same

materials and goods they were getting

from germany also bolstered their

military too um

and they also needed to buy time because

again the soviet union was not prepared

in 1939 to confront

the german menace the soviet union sent

political prisoners back

but this was a combination of prisoner

exchanges with the

germans as well as paranoia about

foreign spies saboteurs and

members of the trotskyist ring of

whatever agents

whether they were correct or not the

reason was because they thought many of

these people were spies it wasn't

because they

collaborated with the nazis and liked

nazis uh these people probably would

have been executed anyway and some of

them actually were executed by the way

um and i have you're saying that the the

reason france and the uk

didn't want to enter into a security

alliance with the soviet union was

because

the soviet union stole land from people

what [ __ ] land was the soviet union

going to steal

from france or the uk they don't even

share a border it doesn't even make any

sense

the polar soviet war wasn't because of

soviet aggression that's a plain lie it

was because they were invaded by almost

every major power on earth

including poland who were trying to take

advantage of the soviet union situation

at the time

your stupid liberal theories about

political legitimacy are completely

meaningless it's not about

knowing what the people's will is

beforehand it's about participating in

the question of the people's will in a

way more fundamental in a way

deeper than just holding formal

elections

people's will is out there and whoever

can best represent it will acquire power

power is its

ability to seize power and hold power is

also a measure of

the consent of the govern and your

christian democrat

cope is meaningless to me i just have

one question for you

why didn't they help romania which

remains extremely underdeveloped

uh to this day um i find it funny that

you're calling me copenharper when

you're

defending the soviet union a failed

dictatorship which collapsed

which collapsed over 20 years ago and

you're joking at me

while i'm representing economic theories

which helped reconstruct western europe

which i think is

still around hey don't interrupt me

[ __ ]

um well i would say the christian

democrats are helping europe

um germany and the eu is offered has

been giving a lot

of investment and loans to romania

to help them build their educational

system to help build their

um help build their infrastructure it's

been helping romania a lot in the past

10 years

um the eu has been really good in that

way and it's also been really good at

helping

citizens from those countries who have

the ability who may not necessarily have

the um

the opportunity in those nations to go

abroad and to further their education

have a better life for themselves

i wasn't raised in romania luckily i was

adopted i was an orphan

in bucharest i don't know where my

background is from but i was adopted by

a christian charity and i got to grow up

in the united states

and i'm going for my masters now you

know it's probably a better life i have

here than i would have had in romania

thanks to the commies

um this weird might makes right

philosophy i

i i assume it's because marx is a

hegelian um

but again this just sounds like fascism

to me you know we take

power he who takes power actually

represents the will of the people i

don't believe that's true

i think humanity has moved past tribal

conflict where

whoever has the most sticks and can boop

the other people on the snoots more

is the the one who's most correct i

think that as human beings

who've gotten logic and reason and

empathy from christ is able or are able

to come up with better systems of

representation than

he who has power gets to rule um

there's a lot of other [ __ ] um the

the going back and forth on the molotov

ribbon truth act obviously the soviet

union is just going to say well we had

to this

because nobody's going to fully admit

that they

sided with the nazis simply because it

was more economically feasible for them

to do

so i always thought that socialists put

you know human rights

and morals over economic

over economic and increases in gdp and

[ __ ] like that

but i guess you guys are just as bad as

the neoliberals then

um again um

you call me cope you say keep coping a

lot but i mean i can fall back on

economies like germany and austria

denmark czechoslovakia well the czech

republic they broke apart

um as examples for the future and i

would say if you look at the voting

patterns of people more and more people

are looking for a society where

there's more democracy there's more

transparency in the government they have

more of a say in the government

or they want more independent trade

unions and the people are obviously

looking for a

better spiritual health as well this

experimentation with

like complete neoliberal atheism has

been a complete failure since the 80s

and 90s

and people are obviously harming for it

but that's why people are returning to

god

uh not necessarily through the catholic

church but then again they would say i'm

a heretic anyway i'm agnostic

i'm a gnostic christian and we're some

weird coptic uh

sect that they don't necessarily like

very much um

i mean you can say you can laugh about

me coping as much as you want but you

will always be some weird guy ranting on

the internet about a failed dictatorship

that murdered

millions of innocent people and i can

always be the guy who's saying well

my people vote for me i didn't have to

force them i didn't have to roll tanks

over anyone

to get them to vote for center-right

political parties

that were open to organized labor and

are and follow christian ethics

in fact i think the best socialists the

socialists in spain you were talking

about earlier

were heavily based off of liberation

theology which is something that we

share in common the christian democrats

and the spanish catholic socialists

believed in a form of liberation

theology where we believe that human

beings as creations of god

have a right to self-determination and

have a right to dignity you obviously

don't believe they have a right to

dignity because you're a communist and

you think

the only right they have is to be talked

down to by whoever has the most guns

which i would say is a

very bleak view on the world i would say

it's also telling

that the chat right now it's filled with

a bunch of people with hammers

and socialist icons in their names

talking about how autocracy is nice

um but then again i guess that's the

crowd that you communists bring people

who like autocracy and hate the worker

um yeah and we are going to be getting

to uh q a soon so i might go ahead

this will be the last one uh yeah and we

will also have closing statements and

final thoughts after

um q a that's good so first the

christian democrats didn't rebuild

europe

america did in the american bretton

woods system america was

untouched by the war only country that

grew

during the war so that's a complete

romania remains poor and underdeveloped

romanians don't agree with you and

they're migrating and fleeing at record

rates

voting with their feet romania has not

been

um maybe a small minority of romanians

are though i didn't say actually that

might makes right you're making

assumptions about my

so-called political philosophy and

putting words in my mouth all i said is

that not everything outside of

liberalism is fascism and i also said

the state does not acquire its being it

doesn't come into being as a result of

being voted in order to have a system

of so-called multi-party democracy you

have to take as its premise

violent state dictatorship which is an

objective fact it's not saying that

might makes right it just means that

actual will and consent of the is a much

more complicated

relationship with statehood what can be

measured at ballot boxes

there's a more fundamental basis of

statehood in democracy

not the same as saying might is stuff

you said about logic and reason coming

from christ i don't know why you're

preaching at me

not interested you said uh so

regarding the molotov ribbon shop pack

i'm just going to assume since you've

ignored all of the arguments

that i've forwarded to demonstrate uh

that

indeed the soviet union did not

collaborate with nazi germany because

they

sided with the nazis or had something

i'm just going to assume you're

conceding my point

um you can't fall upon the economies you

mentioned germany austria denmark

because those countries have never

actually replicated their systems in

non-western countries it's only western

european country

under the auspices of the american union

and europe euro-american imperialism

that you can have

those kinds of civic economies and

germany specifically is a peculiar

example because

the idea that germany came into being

because of elections is a [ __ ] lie

uh germany its fate was decided by the

victors of world war ii germany didn't

even have a say in it

um uh so it's really stupid if if

again why hasn't why haven't they saved

romania uh

again your people didn't vote for you

it's complete

[ __ ] uh the question is

which spanish i had last question what

spanish

liberation theology socialists are you

talking about you're talking about latin

america and not spain

verify what you mean

oh i see responding to all of that you

keep bringing up why haven't you saved

romania i can't help that they're not

romanians aren't following my particular

mostly western economic ideology i have

been saying of course that

the you know the eurozone has probably

been doing more for romania than the

soviets ever did at least they're

getting investment they're getting funds

to go to education

to improve their health care and to

improve their um

to improve the country as a whole and

you know it's a working process they've

only been independent since 18

since 1989 it's when they shot shoshesku

deservedly

um so we'll just have to wait to the

future things are picking up in eastern

europe the baltic states are doing

particularly well

um as i mentioned in the very beginning

of this debate there are plenty of

nations

ranging from the czech republic to

slovakia to

hungary to a number of other ones which

are happy with the move to multi-party

democracy which believe that their lives

are getting better

under this new system there are issues

again

as i said earlier the um the communist

regimes have permanently scarred these

places

they will probably almost always be

behind all of the nations that did not

have to suffer under the totalitarian

booth of communism

but we can't really help that you're the

guys who turn them into dictatorship

shitholes in the first place

you can't be blamed on that uh we can't

be blamed for that that's not our fault

we weren't there if we were in charge it

wouldn't have happened

um why hasn't it been reproduced in

other non-western

other non-western european countries um

well technically it has denmark's a

northern european country not western

one and denmark was

an imperial territory of the swedish

empire for most of its history

and you know barring the brief times

they're also invaded by the prussians

um canada is not a western european

place that's also a colony and they've

been doing very well there and i would

say that while they don't necessarily

fall into christian democracy

these sort of uh liberal markets

open to private investment but also open

to humane labor laws

and organized labor has been doing well

for canada as well

america seems to be opening up to it as

well and we'll see within the next 10 to

15 years on

how well the democrats do in future

elections maybe the democrats pull

through

and they get rid of these idiots in the

squad and they take on a more

realistic more in line with christian

democracy more in line with rein

capitalist system

of you know working on capitalism

with uh with the workers having a better

saying it through organized labor not

just

coming down i understand you get pissy

about all of this

a lot of things and i understand that

you get bored because the only thing you

can talk about is your meme

soon-to-be great soviet union nation

that collapsed a few years ago

um the real world is

you just say anything that stumbles on

your mind um one i can't help

uh what you're saying about the eurozone

is total [ __ ]

romania remains an underdeveloped colony

and

oh it's only been it's only been 30

years that's literally like half the

lifespan of the communist states that's

a really long time

yikes saying that yeah generally what

you're saying about eastern europe is

[ __ ] i don't care what they're

telling you people around are not

the final thing is that uh

should i i don't know is this like a

comedy now you're saying denmark canada

and america aren't part of the west and

the european civilization

yikes i don't know what to say i think

that one speaks for it

well you said western europe denmark is

northern europe canada

american country i said a western and

european countries

so okay we get to the q and a now

let's do that okay um all right so

let me read the super chats first from

tyler durden

what's a better measure of economic

success gdp or utility

um i think gdp per capita and

purchasing power and levels of education

are probably a better way of looking at

this than just

gdp overall how did you want to answer

that too

i actually don't know what utility how

[ __ ] my mic is

yeah i don't know what utility means

where do you went on this huge communist

economic thing and you don't know

like understand utility in economics

that's weird

okay from cg infrared is intellectually

dishonest because he is

discounting the 1956 revolt in

hungary and how many other states

revolted against soviet

tyranny well i actually directly

addressed and talked about 19

hungary but thanks for wasting your

comment uh well i don't think you did

address them very well you completely

ignored the prague spring which the

soviet union invaded czechoslovakia to

stop liberalization

um largely they were very pissy that

once the press was released

they spent most of their time they spent

most of their time insulting

moscow communists excuse that

the excuse that they were afraid that

hungary would go to the west after

they'd been [ __ ] with so much by the

soviets

is a poor excuse that's like an abusive

boyfriend

because he's worried you said it was

because of the market economy you said

it was

literally had nothing to do with it you

said they wanted a market economy and it

literally had no

i said they wanted state liberalization

and yeah they did want some market

liberalization that had nothing to do

with the soviet union's invasion

yes it did we can we can play back we

can play back the [ __ ] clip and see

what exactly what you said

i did have a lot with the soviet

invasion they stopped them specifically

to stop

and moving into a more western economic

system you don't know what you're doing

as they did with

czech slovakia in the prague spring it's

weird that every time people have a say

they want to get as far away from you as

possible

they weren't asking for [ __ ]

liberalization during the proc spring

they were asking for a different type of

socialism

by the way no they were no they were

asking for market liberalization for

state

they weren't they were asking for

socialism with the human face you don't

know no they weren't

socialism with the human face was dude

the prague spring was a really sporadic

student uprising it was like may 68

was like may 68 it was like a bunch of

students with really ambiguous

ideals or whatever no it was not like

that in france it was

first off alexander dukchek the leader

of czechoslovakia and the

vast majority of the citizenry who rose

up

and were fighting with the soviet

invaders for up to eight months after

the invasion

and pockets of resistance all around i

thought the government was illegitimate

um yeah the overall communist state was

a legitimate alexander

was a rare gem in the [ __ ] that was

communist

conveniently an enemy of the soviet

union and the enemy of the eastern bloc

is the yeah well i mean yeah

most moral people most god-fearing good

men are enemies of the soviet union and

the eastern bloc

okay that's what you're saying but i

don't know

all right so from g.a korobo cheshire

cat you don't

owe anything to the anglos in that

orphanage

free your mind brah um

i wasn't adopted by anglers my mother is

an italian immigrant

um i'm i'm pro-isla i grew up

learning ira songs and i'm pro um

scottish independence

i am not hypnotized by the anglo-menace

uh

do not worry chatters i am woke on the

angler question

all right so from tyler durden is

cheshire cat going to make an argument

for christian democracy or just try to

argue against communism

uh well my argument is that my system is

better um i

as i said in my earlier statement and as

i'll reiterate in my closing statement

that i think christian democracy offers

a more democratic state

it all obviously our economic systems

offer a better standard of living

living than any of the communists have

been able to offer and

i also believe people are clearly

suffering under the sort of weird

neoliberal atheistic worldview where

people are expected to take narcotics to

feel happy now

and i think christian democracy uniquely

handles that as well

okay um from that robot

cheshire cat why do you argue christian

democracy works because of the

because of the economies of germany and

austria and the likes

by that same metric isn't marxism

leninism

a more successful system because of the

gdp of china

the world's largest economy um no

see my idea is that people are able to

do this under a liberal

non liberal state where they aren't

being tortured by their own government

where they also have better where they

also have better access to education

better health a better outlook on the

world i think

if you pull if you look at polling

they're even happier on average

um so it's not just gdp as i mentioned

my earlier statement

it's purchasing power it's availability

of goods for the average citizen

it's availability of food it's

availability of happiness

um and all of those things christian

democracy has done better and will do

better than communists ever will yeah

all of the alienation and loneliness and

spiritual degradation that followed the

collapse of communism all of that

is apparently sweeped under the rug nice

one

well i mean hey alcoholism started in

the soviet union

long before so we're not just talking

about alcoholism we're talking about

widespread

anti-social tendencies we're talking

about prostitution

we're talking about spiritual

degradation we're talking about lack of

community we're talking about lack of

belonging lack of purpose all of those

things follow the collapse of communism

whereas under communism

people felt like they had a sense of

community and they had a sense of uh

society-wide solidarity um this is not

true i will say that the

the uh and suicide rates what about

suicide people are taking their lives

more than they weren't

people didn't have a chance to kill

themselves under the soviet union

because they were being murdered by the

state so often what so obviously the

suicide rate is going down they didn't

have a chance to kill them

obviously and also obviously there

aren't many prostitutes in the soviet

union because that was criminalized in

like 1935 they're all sent to the gym

under christian society there's

widespread child trafficking

what a holy christian society you're

talking about i'm actually in nations

like sweden they've been

uh cracking down is the most [ __ ] up

one of all are you kidding sweden's a

fully atheist

nihilistic state that everything goes i

don't believe

sweden i don't believe sweden is an

atheistic nihilist state

they do have some problems but i mean

it's not that bad i mean

to be fair like i would say that

nihilist atheism is usually brought

about by the commies than it is by group

which literally not all christians

conservative christians will admit that

the

real christian values were best

actualized under communist states

that is 100 not sure no it's true have

you

have you gone to church no i'm not

christian but i'm just telling you yeah

so stop telling me what i believe all

right [ __ ] get the [ __ ] out of

here you're we i don't care what you

believe you're probably bringing us

this is

you don't speak for all christians

there's many christian communists pedro

castillo and peru is one of them there's

many

there's many the communists in russia

are christian what are you talking about

well first off there are eastern

orthodox right i don't they are not part

of my club

okay well i think they're christian as a

neutral spectator who's not involved in

whatever

cult [ __ ] you're talking oh yeah but

you have this like i i mean i keep

getting these pm's i don't want to bring

it up but i keep getting people keep

telling me you have this weird sense of

yellow fever where

you're just like get really hard on for

russians and asians for some apparent

reason

so are you talking about do you know

that i descend from wait do you actually

have

a guy in your in your discord who's like

a mod who pretends to be asian but he's

actually white

and he pretends to be chinese is that

true no i don't what the [ __ ]

are you talking about you don't it's

[ __ ] still he's making me a liar

i know i've been told by two people now

that you have guys

actually chinese chinese dude

he's camped up before he's chinese

he's camped up before he's chinese the

guy that's a show runner

ezra he's actually chinese you dumb [ __ ]

he's can't look at our [ __ ] archives

he's cammed up before in our videos you

sound stupid as [ __ ]

you're talking about a hard on listen

you don't even know the whole okay

shut the [ __ ] up you don't

we're [ __ ] pretending

why are you sexually harassing me you

can't have my dick

[ __ ] off i think you were i think you

were the one shouting that you were

going to skull [ __ ] me earlier so i

think you're the one doing the sexual

harassment

something oh you have a heart on what

the [ __ ] are you talking about you

[ __ ] weirdo

what a christian you are huh that you

talking what are you gonna bring in my

mouth what a christian you are such a

filthy disgusting mouth

hey i'm a good christian i haven't i

guys fake christian chat let him know

who's a fake christian you're so pissed

right now you're going after my faith

you don't even know what to say we'll

see who won after the debate's over

we'll see

i i hey i saw it in the chat you've been

you've been [ __ ]

pumping your supporters into the [ __ ]

youtube channel

gorillas they're all spamming gorillas

you can't even see my [ __ ]

[ __ ] i'm on [ __ ] twitch wait twitch

is a public platform

i have a twitch you could see public

twitch chats okay well i

the only channel [ __ ] you're talking

to is the one in my [ __ ] chat

you just make [ __ ] up you're a [ __ ]

liar you know lying's a sin right

you've lied a lot during this time about

lying at all

lying is

are asking the world court to legally uh

and the world court doesn't agree with

them no one agrees with well they're

still

talking about it right now obviously

about whatever the [ __ ] obviously the

russians are not going to allow

you to recognize it as a genocide

because the russians were the ones who

[ __ ] did it

it's just like the chinese it's just

like the chinese there's someone that

you went from so okay

you committed genocide you committed

genocide you committed genocide i'm

talking about it therefore it's true you

committed judgment

okay so let's move on um has oh did i

read this one hungary

was invaded and revolted against the

soviets the people rejected a foreign

ruler

discard geopolitics how were the soviets

right

yeah a lot of people are bringing up the

fact that

i gotta turn up my gain because my mic

is [ __ ] up

um how were the soviets right

the soviets had an option let hungary go

to the west

and thereby undermine the whole eastern

bloc and the warsaw pact

or do something yeah i admit it was a

horrible situation i'm actually of the

view though

that i hold the leadership of um

hungary and the soviet union after

stalin's death responsible for letting

that situation develop

in the first place it was a bad

situation i'm not here to celebrate it

but that was the option on the soviet

union's table they

they had this option were they right

well the situation wasn't right in the

first place the soviet union was

isolated

by viciously aggressive western

imperialism that wanted to kick-start

the german uh and general uh

military-industrial complex after world

war ii for a full-scale inflate invasion

of the soviet union again

after the scar of world war ii the

soviet people

were not going to afford and allow or

tolerate another invasion of their

homeland

yeah this is just not true first off the

west kept offering you guys free money i

don't understand why

you could have at least taken the money

and then done your whole no no we

already talked about bretton we already

talked about bretton woods so shut the

[ __ ] up you don't have to bring it back

you already lost the debate

you lost the debate so you come back and

the question was addressed to me anyway

you dumb cat

both respond to these questions okay

that'll take forever um so we're gonna

do okay so yeah so

ga korobov said yeah mods are really hot

for haws in this debate

no you just pissed me off earlier oh

wait so you're admitting that you're

you're a bit biased now

maybe a little trouble what a pissy

[ __ ]

i know um anyways so

so from paul belden this is the second

day in a row you got embarrassed

in debate don't quit your day job well

we'll see what the majority thinks after

the debate's over

okay um let me see what else we got here

that we can pull up

jay corbin uh cheshire can't afford a

video camera despite the triumph of

christian democracy and capitalism

i'm a 22 year old university student i

can't afford anything that's just how

the system is made also i live in the

united states

if i lived in denmark or germany i could

probably afford a video camera

we'll live there i'll you know i'm a

good swimmer i'll get right

over there all right too many [ __ ]

damn [ __ ]

like red rose [ __ ] commies in america

anyway [ __ ] the anglosphere

these get out of english-speaking

countries go to ireland where the celts

will protect me

so abdullah uh what do you think uh

fascism has

to me fascism is a zombie mutation of

liberalism and also liberal democracy

okay and spencer it's weird

nobody [ __ ] cares shut up cg

how us how does infrared account for

stalinist destroying the

catalonia commune during the spanish

civil war as being justified if they

were

moral doing so right it's a lie actually

what happened is that towards the end of

the war

he left opposition to the so-called

stalinists

negotiated with franco because they

didn't want they feared communist

uh seizing power of the popular front so

actually a combination of anarchists

trotskyists and liberals were the ones

who undermined the war effort and

actually [ __ ] the whole thing over

the idea that stalinists were sabotaging

it stalinists

who were pushing for a broad popular

front to focus on the actual war effort

and winning the spanish majority

while the anarchists were doing dumb

[ __ ] uh

experimental [ __ ] that was a

complete distraction yeah try again

buddy

okay so from based in red pill ask the

christian democracy how he feels about

monarchy since heaven is a kingdom oh i

remember this guy in the discord

um i do not believe in your conception

of heaven as some sort of divine

monarchy like we have on earth heaven is

non-corporeal first of all so it doesn't

even count

um and so far i i said in the very

beginning of the bit that i don't even

consider

uh constitutional monarchy monarchies to

be truly liberal societies that's why i

advocate for the abolitionism

of the swedish and the uh british

monarch because those [ __ ] need to go

they're norman invaders anyway [ __ ] the

queen she's german

um yeah so i i don't support

monarchy i support a mult a multi-party

representative system

all right so from dragon nightmare ask

cheshire cat if he believes in the labor

aristocracy

um [ __ ] if you have to google this

labor aristocracy is what where you have

like these i know skilled upper class

laborers who perform their own

aristocracy within the the working class

or some [ __ ]

i don't know i do believe that um

there's like this so you have the sort

of middle class and comfortable working

class of very skilled workers

and i think um for instance in housing

policy

um when it comes to uh like blocking

paying their taxes on housing in

california i do think it is it does look

weird when

you have these very successful

middle-class people who seem like they

want to shut the door

on economic mobility behind them and

when they get the chance to [ __ ] around

with their

their local politics but i mean you know

that that's bad but that seems to be

a problem that every single system in

the world has had

i mean no one has been able to fix it so

far okay

um at least my labor

aristocracy and capitalism isn't sending

you to a gulag

okay from uh grandma too to haas what's

your opinion on the book everyday

stalinism

uh these are interesting books i

recommend they're gonna give you a far

more

nuanced far more impartial view

obviously they're still biased

but they're way better than the dumb

[ __ ] that chechire cat reads that

says the

communists were eating babies and killed

five billion people

and uh were doing all these horrible

things so i reck i can i can give my

thumbs up that these are

more or less pretty reliable sources

i would recommend the book the cold war

by aud arne vestad he is one of the

foremost scholars

on the cold war in asia and eurasia to

be fair

on the planet he has a very good book

the audiobook is

lovely and if you have a subscription to

uh audible

the question was for me let's get this

along the question was for me no one

gives a [ __ ] shut the [ __ ] up oh you

shut the [ __ ] up nobody cares about you

did we did we do this gold medal uh are

the oppressed

colonized nations denmark and canada i'm

not sure if we did that one they're all

over the place with these questions um

no i just think it's funny people talk

about these other nations who were most

of their history also colonies

um and talk about them like they're like

they were traipsing around

africa like i mean denmark was in the

northern wars

uh two of her pre-northern wars were

like a backwoods of the swedish empire

it just sort of got batted between the

swedish empire and pol and the prussian

empire for a while

canada was invaded by the uh was was

taken over and

stolen from the french and sadly as much

as america tried we could not liberate

them in the war of 1812

but yeah both of these even believe it

or not even white people

can be oppressed colonials i understand

that you hate white people

it's really sad that it was stolen from

the french it's like the indigenous

white people of canada must really have

been

upset about that so see cg said that i

missed their

their super chat about um the spanish

civil war i couldn't swear i read this

but i'll just read it again just in case

um how does infrared account first no

you read it you read it yeah i read that

okay

so all right so i didn't miss it um

the third rail by omar has are you

arabic yes okay

now let's get to some of these that i

had to jot down from uh how do you feel

about the

the genocide of the kurds by the uh

[ __ ] would you ask me that you dumb ass

what cause i'm guessing you i'm guessing

you don't have

that one either is that another genocide

that didn't exist or was this justified

so you're assuming you're assuming

you're assuming i have views about

kurdish people

because of my ethnicity yikes i was just

curious do you think

what a brotherly christian thing of you

you're just a racist what a brotherly

holy christian

assumption you just made right i know

it's the gypsy side sorry

um assuming you think the kurds are

backed by the ca and deserved it

i have literally no idea how to

pronounce that so i'm not even gonna try

do you know how to pronounce that um

it's like yeah it's like

irish we'll never get there shilling for

anglo-metaphysics yeah well he's

brainwashed it's not his fault

okay um all right so from dragon

nightmare

question for cheshire cat i i'm [ __ ]

his wife what will he do okay

that's not a question um all right so

from columbia

can you get them to steer back to

whether

whether marxian socialism is better than

christian democracy

um okay that was most about yeah i was

trying to debate that but he wanted to

talk about ninjas and samurais

but can you can you say that again no

uh from adrian's and oh god these are a

lot of troll questions you guys come on

from dd defeater for infrared how do you

explain the overwhelming consensus among

historians in a variety of diverse

fields

economists and other experts that

marxist socialism is unsuccessful

china has a population of 1.4 billion

people so that consensus if you're just

because consensus means it's like oh

it's a bunch of people well there's more

people in china who disagree with that

i risk my case i think they're talking

about academics

there's western there's western

academics and there's chinese academics

who's more right who's more or whatever

well you do have the yellow fever so you

probably trust the chinese once more

yeah again with the sexual harassment

very christian of you that's not a

sexual aspect you can have social yellow

fever and just like them or i didn't

even bring up sex okay i'm not i am not

of european descent so i don't know why

you're saying yellow fever when i'm

actually a [ __ ] arab shut the [ __ ] up

you dumbass

arabs aren't asians you realize that

right yeah well we're not in europe

either

so shut the [ __ ] up you can be arab and

have yellow fever

okay

you're literally a [ __ ] racist so if

i talk about china

i still want to hear your opinion on the

genocide of the kurds before you call me

a racist

multiple other genocides why are you

asking me about the genocide of the

courage what what about my background

adjustment because it was because

right when you found out i was arab is

when you asked that question so please

clarify

i just wanted to get your opinion on the

iraqi history there since there's some

socialism there as well

but i'm iraqi now too and even if i was

are you from zoltan

cat what would you say about persia

making germany being done by military

force

also thoughts on coca-cola sending

mercenaries to kill union leaders

you meet prussia not persia learn to

read blondie

i said prusa all right prussia

the great state of prussia

um cat what do you say about prussia

making germany being done by military

force that's an odd way to word it

grammatically um

i think that prussian militarism

really had a prussian militarism and the

idea of the sort of military aristocracy

that infected germany even into the

republic was very harmful it was

dangerous a problem germany wouldn't

exist without it that collapsed

arguing for prussian militarism now

weird no but germany wouldn't exist

without that

well you're right but german would have

probably been a collection of more

independent smaller states which isn't

necessarily a bad thing but they

wouldn't be a christian democracy

smaller nations can you hey like bavaria

can be its own

independent nation as well

they want to be democracies well these

people could unify into separate

democratic states

well to be fair before bismarck took

over in the wars of unification

they already were dividing themselves

into a northern germanic states in a

southern germanic states right so there

was prussia in the northern states

and then there were these other german

states surrounded by austria moving on

moving on

i think my german history is better than

you it's a weird thing

just because i don't want to talk about

every possible subject in the [ __ ]

wikipedia encyclopedia

doesn't mean i'm dodging it it means you

literally are [ __ ] talking like free

jazz

you don't have to talk about every

possible [ __ ] thing

that comes to your mind because it's not

[ __ ] relevant yeah we could talk

about

the rivalry between the habsburg

monarchy and the prussian uh [ __ ]

militarist uh

dynasties we could talk about oh we're

really really can you [ __ ] stay on

topic dumbass

can you know the kurds again you keep

refusing to answer that i assumed if it

was a better opinion than they deserved

it you'd probably respond

i'm not going to entertain your racist

baiting nice try

all right so from um so ask the cat

a dude if he prays in public uh i do

yes fake christian

uh excluding yourself who do you think

is the top

five political debaters on twitch

youtube

uh number one is jackson hinkle two

i only named two number one is jackson

hinkle that i know of

uh two caleb maupin they're actually

really close i don't know

um three i don't know i don't i can't

think of anyone else right now

three i'm gonna say zerka on twitch he's

actually

yeah you beat destiny a lot of times

so britney why are western idealists

always

low down misogynists i don't know

um okay i think those are the ones that

we got

there so okay i'm gonna go back to the

ones that we jotted down

um from dylan blay ask has if he will

debate me on theory and which brand of

communism is better marxist leninism

i will yeah we just have to schedule it

i will

okay and let's see here memories of the

future for infrared if when countries

already have infrastructure why build a

new one infrared stop being stupid learn

something no because you have to build

new infrastructure

if the during the passage of time

infrastructure doesn't last forever nice

try dumbass well you said that why are

they building off of the soviet ones

like clearly everybody just builds off

of the infrastructure no because they

can't they're you they're they're still

relying upon that decaying

infrastructure they can't even build new

ones meaning the communists did all that

the economy did all the like stone walls

the communists did the heavy living and

capitalist society is um

taking advantage of the the things the

communists built that's the [ __ ]

point all right the soviet union while

it was growing after 28 was just taking

advantage of goods it was no

it wasn't because it actually it

actually realized it actually

industrialized and renovated the whole

[ __ ] country what a horrible example

buying french and german industrial

equipment with grain

ukrainians no no no the primary [ __ ]

union using the primary of soviet

industries

yeah of course they bought some

machinery from ford and other people

but guess what the bulk of it was soviet

made

bulk of it was german and french no it

wasn't that's a [ __ ] lie you just

lying is a sin by the way he keeps

saying that but that doesn't mean

it is a [ __ ] sign

from france in germany lying is a sin

saying they got it all from france and

germany's alive

just stealing [ __ ] from germany and

check out slovakia to

what did they steal what did they steal

you dumb ass they ripped out that [ __ ]

they ripped out

thousands of trains after world war ii

you're talking about after world war

ii shut the [ __ ] up

20 to 30 million soviets died in world

war ii of course there was a man

in germany defending itself maybe if you

weren't siding with them oh yeah

the innocent germans were defending

themselves go ahead the innocent germans

were defending themselves go ahead

the polls in eastern europe to defend

yourself and then when the war comes

down you're an absolute [ __ ] failure

shut the [ __ ] up

why did poland reject the [ __ ] treaty

with the soviet union

for a non-aggression pact as security

obviously oh yeah yeah because the

soviet union is going to steal territory

what a [ __ ] lie what a cope

so from mri 316 as a christian i

honestly think christian

democracy is gay and somebody also asked

why the cat is so racist

um he's a fake christian

okay and then is it the core above guy

he's really molding a cha

stay mad you are you are giving money to

this filthy capitalist

brittany over here um i hope you enjoy

giving money to the system you hate okay

anyways from

uh diet i don't know one i have to be

really really bad is that okay yeah go

ahead yeah go ahead

um from diogenes for the cat

do you learn everything about politics

from wikipedia

um no however wikipedia is a nice place

to a place to

look for sources now i generally look

for other things encyclopedia britannica

is good

buying books is nice um i just got a

really nice one an amalgamation of

essays from european constructionists

it's pretty fun

um i'm going to push

in the chat again um read that guy he's

great

but yeah i mean there are other places

to get um politics

from than wikipedia i think it's funny

you're criticizing me because it sounds

like i got some information from

wikipedia

when all of you comments actually get

all your entire political philosophy

from [ __ ] internet memes

well he's not here so yeah he's having a

cry in the bathroom

we all understand he's playing he's

running away

as jesus said the wicked flee when only

the

righteous follow um

there's another question for him but

let's pull up the ones that we

uh can pull up for you uh from starfish

ask cat why he hates women um

i like women very much actually uh

i've i think i've said some interesting

and

brittany knows i like women um wait the

tsarfish yeah this is our fish guy why

do you like autocracy

you were in here you spent the entire

time bitching about how the fascists and

the socialists need to unite against the

liberals so i mean it's sort of weird

why do you hate women all right so from

memories of the future

for cat does you know how much given by

eu

go back to like i'm just picturing him

in his accent right now

um to eu of course not otherwise he

wouldn't talk

this dumb driver romania's getting a

[ __ ] ton of free money from the eu

all right it's it's surprising that they

are handing that [ __ ] out

um i hope they continue to do it i talk

[ __ ] when i go pee

[Laughter]

okay so from full metal question for

haws

do you think the cat won't turn on their

webcam

because they are too busy waging a ppw

for denmark

yeah i think so it's like of all things

especially if you don't even have money

of all things to chill

like create this larping identity for

germany and ryan cap

wow dude

from g.a corp bob jesus also said

shut up ankloid cat john 316.

um he did not that is

that is not gospel you definitely said

it

shut up mod right you're supposed to be

unbiased [ __ ]

all right so from starfish uh

democracy is for cucks who shell for

globalists

also why is cat a virgin at 23.

um democracy is pretty good and uh my

sexual habits are my own and

they don't concern you they do concern

your mother though better watch out for

her what a great christian

because i swear it's going to be like a

racehorse once the floodgates open

there's no stopping me so i think this

might be one of the last ones

uh from pepe sylvia for infrared is it

your idea that consent of

the govern is self-evident if there is

not

a revolution no i'm just saying there's

many different factors there's many ways

to look at it it's way more ambiguous

people do not become an organic uniform

of a state

strictly by means of voting in an

election there's something

more ambiguous going on with that

uh full metal says jesus would turn on

his webcam

um but jesus did not exist in a time

with webcams

tyler darden says cat how did it feel to

get owned

um to be fair i i was hoping for more

all right this was on

this was underwhelming okay so from

skurge god

yo bucket the imf destroyed romania and

the

what is that future view carcass i don't

even know what that says

orphanages wait that's the name of a

city it's bucharest

you can't pronounce it shut up

okay i'm not very good with these

places um orphanages are the legacy of

those crippling loans

uh wait the orphanages are the legacy of

those no actually the like

the reason romania has so many [ __ ]

orphans is because the communist

government

banned contraceptives because um they

needed their women to be producing in

their words more labor units

they also executed people who got

abortions although i don't like

abortions

contraceptives are probably important of

course they they

created this failing government-run

orphanage keep scoping romanians

romanians remember it fondly and they

loved the game yeah they really liked

him he made very good target practice

no they like him 50 yeah they liked it

they liked him because he was fun to

shoot in the street with his shitty wife

he don't represent romania keep coping

neither does he he got shot he's dead

now yeah and romania is so great

great off for it um all right so

we can do closing statements and final

thoughts so cat why don't you go first

no i want hey i opened i have to go last

time no no let him go first

no i want i want fine on the closing

statement you made me go first and

you've been

and the mod's been biased this entire

time all right fine fine

do it [ __ ]

[ __ ] that [ __ ] that no [ __ ] you todd

you're pissing me all

your pictures there you go

you forfeited your time or you can get

on music

with the regular chat um

all right so do you want to go or not

cat wait why is he still needed

damn the [ __ ] oh todd is so pissy as

well he's still [ __ ] biased stop

pissing us off then

you know i i think it's funny all of the

regulars in the chat

oh he's cutting out wait what did you

boot him again todd what's going on no i

don't know

selma i didn't touch anything no what's

going on with the mute

are you gonna go cat or not no no let

him go first he keep muting me anyway so

why

obviously you want me to go keep [ __ ]

muting me todd

oh my god you guys okay um

no [ __ ] out how's we just go

okay well i'm gonna keep it short

because i think i already won the debate

anyway

um here's the thing i came into this

prepare to debate

about the topic of rhine capitalism

aka the social market economy versus

marxian socialism as

experienced by the people who lived

under that i made extensive well not

really extensive but i prepared more or

less

i researched about the case of east

germany and i really wanted to talk

about that i wanted to talk about the

specifics of that

subject matter i came here and i was

very disappointed to find that cheshire

cat instead of wanting to talk about the

actual topic

of the debate wanted to engage in a type

of debate free jazz

where he flails his arms in every

possible direction

spewing out as much [ __ ] as he can

think of

under the impression that i wouldn't

methodically and systematically

deconstruct and absolutely blow the [ __ ]

out of every dumb [ __ ] point he was

trying to throw in my direction

and despite the fact that i did that it

detracted from the wider aim and scope

of this debate

which was about talking about ryan

capitalism versus marxian socialism

he preferred to talk about samurais and

ninjas

as far as cheshire cat's understanding

of history is concerned

he can only take a very broad view of

things he never actually will debate

about anything in particular and

stick to that particular topic he'll

move

and globetrot around the whole world

just to cope

and save face for his um absurd

ideological pretension of so-called

christian

democracy cheshire cat is clearly unable

to engage with the rich

and deep history of uh

communist and communist statehood and um

he it's also very clear he's a racist

and a fake christian

he's an overall a pathetic person and i

think he forfeits

the debate unambiguously

all right am i not going to be muted for

my closing can i have at least that

todd go on all right

so this debate did not go very well

um so my points have always been

that christian democracy democracy

liberal economics

multi-party democracy and not ignoring

your faith when we move on to the future

because obviously we still need our

connection with god

we'll always be a better path forward

than bolshevism or

whatever the [ __ ] infrared is spewing

here

uh infrared has spent most of his time

here advocating for authoritarianism

he doesn't believe that democratic

states should actually

have elections they shouldn't care what

the people think because he knows

that when the people do have a say they

never vote for his type of

his type of [ __ ] he spent the times

advocating for the soviet union in china

both states which were anti-worker

anti-democracy

which stopped independent trade unions

which destroyed

independent worker councils because they

hated

the worker and hot and haz hates the

worker as well

my system has led to a

more prosperous uh people the checks

coming out of a socialist [ __ ] were

able to create

one of the best countries to live in at

the moment i think they have one of the

highest rates of education

highest rates of transparency and a

higher rates of education and very low

government corruption

um i think my system speaks for itself

while people will always run around and

defend old dictatorships because they've

never had to live under them

and they know that they understand that

they're hard that they're never actually

going to have to do anything it's just

fun to advocate for some long collapse

dictatorship because

it's hard to actually do real policy

like christian democrats have

but in the end i think the world speaks

for itself

when we increase democracy people vote

more in line with my positions than with

houses

that will be the end of my closing

statements all right thank you so much

um all right so

thank you guys for coming on uh i do

have actually some more debates for you

guys that i'll talk to you about but

tomorrow night we got

we have a debate at 7 p.m eastern it's

going to be with bryson

gray and izzy and then i think um i

think jay

dyer might come in on after that to

debate bryson i'm not sure what's going

to go on with that he'll put out an

open invitation but we got a um yes

bryson's also going to be back on

thursday

to debate mouthy infidel then we got

destiny and mio on friday night

and our pop-on panels which we're doing

every week saturday night so if you guys

are interested um they're drinking chats

so people can kind of come on for 30

minutes to an hour

and we just rotate people out and

they've been really fun they go pretty

much all night so anybody that's wanting

to come on to that

you got to message me for um message me

so that we get you on the list because

they get

kind of backed up and then um yeah

sunday night sean last and stardust will

be debating so we got a good week for

you all

uh make sure to uh come check us out we

will be back tomorrow night at 7pm

eastern other than that

we will see you then so good night folks

okay they're off oh my goodness

all right well that was fun

all right see