Tankie Defeats Destiny

hello hi what's up

first things first i want to clear the

air somebody just may see something up

in your chat

i didn't donate nothing to wash i was

somebody we didn't even know who was i

keep asking them to

announce themselves review themselves so

i can honor them give them a badge of

metal

medal of honor you know what i'm saying

gotcha

um well what's up what you wanna okay

destiny

okay destiny i wanna have a nice civil

relaxed

respectful conversation

but what i want to talk to you about

is here's what i am confused about

destiny

i'm going to admit something i only

found out about your existence

maybe a year or two ago were you a

bernie sanders supporter

of 2016. in 2016 yeah i think i was yeah

um in 2016 yeah i think i was yeah

wait hold on okay some fucking feedback

okay okay there we go

okay you were you were a bernie sanders

supporter right in 2016 i'm almost

positive

with the establishment and you deny that

they

rigged the election against birdie in

2016 and now we're seeing

they did the same shit in 2020 so why do

you come to these conclusions destiny

well they they definitely didn't rig it

in 2016.

um

because that's that means that word

means a lot um and they well they

definitely do anything in 2020. um i

know there was some impropriety that

happened with the um emailing of the

questions to hillary's campaign

but that's a little political correct

way for saying they fucking rigged it

right you know you and both that i know

they just like the whole thing was

fucking can you real quick can you say

rigged can you tell me what you mean

when you say that just so we're on the

same page

they used unfair institutional means and

with the collaboration of the mainstream

media to intervene

into the democratic process just like

they allege russia intervened in the

democratic process wait why are you

interrupting me i don't want to

interrupt you do you want to erupt me

because we can interrupt each other yeah

actually if i say something if i

if i say something and you disagree what

i say interrupt me immediately okay okay

i love that i love that i love you

boss was different dude vos was

complaining the whole time and

uh i really love you for that man okay

yeah um

when you say when you say like used

institutional means to rig

i'm just being graze or clear like what

do you mean by that

okay well basically in 2016 for example

wikileaks told us that

the d that see it the dnc was passing

stuff to cnn or the vice versa i don't

fucking know

yeah from the email they were emailing

them like the questions

uh preparation for the debate or

whatever which they definitely should

have been doing right somebody got fired

for that right

over there i always that name always

because i don't know but

why do you deny that there's an

establishment because isn't that a clear

indication there's a real like

vested establishment and

institutionalized interests

yeah that was done yet um yeah i mean

i'm sure there is to some extent but to

what extent it can control like the

opinions of the public

um i i don't know about that i don't

know if you would have needed to rig an

election against bernie when

hillary was already more um when hillary

was already like the more popular

candidate

well i'm not saying the entire reason

bernie lost

was because they rigged it against him

i'm just trying to say that

wasn't that an example the way in which

they overwhelmingly

came together and intervened in the

electoral process

much like how they allege russia did the

same thing in 2016 in favor of trump

why didn't that push you i'm not saying

push you further to the left

wait so real quick you keep saying it's

not comparable to the russia stuff at

all why not um

because it's a totally separate thing

why is it separate

my understanding was that bernie's

offices were never penetrated by a

hacker

trying to selectively leak information

to damage his campaign if this happened

i just don't know about it but i've

never heard that claim

ever before so but you don't think the

mainstream media was changing people's

views in a rat fuckery type way

uh and spreading uh spinning things in a

misinformed way

whether or not the media is spinning

things are trying to influence people of

course they're the media that's their

job why isn't that is this intervention

this is a fundamentally different claim

than the one about russia

but how did russia intervene because all

the russian bots were allegedly doing

was spreading memes and shit

so the two biggest familiarities i am

with how russia intervened

is that one there was a hacking not

attempt there was a hack at the dnc

offices that caused emails to be leaked

in a timely manner

yeah right yeah to maximum well the

guccifer guy that passed them onto

that that caused emails to be leaked in

a in a politically

um fashionable manner to the media over

the course of like a year or a year of

course

that was one thing that happened and the

second thing that happened was that

russia was setting up

um companies in the united states to

falsely disseminate

information in an attempt to undermine

our political system and this was done

via the irs the or the ira the internet

research agency

according to the mueller indictments

those are two things that to my

understanding

the democrats have never done anything

comparable to that to bernie's campaign

which is why i don't like the caller

okay okay regarding the first thing

about the leaks though were you glad the

leaks happened

no you weren't glad that they happened

but all they did was reveal the truth

um getting true you wouldn't know inside

destiny we wouldn't know

we didn't know we wouldn't know about

the way the democrats fucked over bernie

where not for those leaks

we would still be in the dark segment we

know concretely now that they were all

uh using their forces to tilt it in

favor of hillary as an institutionalized

vested interest

what examples of this do we have beyond

the passing the email questions on

from donna um you got me there i don't

have anything on the top of my head i

just know that you know

everyone knows they were rat fucking in

favor of him you know well yeah because

but nobody

seems to know what they actually did

wrong which is interesting to me when i

can point to very specific things that

russia was not only alleged to listen

destiny

this is the problem destiny if i had

time to prepare for this which i didn't

even know i was debating you tonight but

if i had time i'd be able to compile

some facts and some examples

of how they were doing it but that's

just the most famous and well-known one

yeah we don't have to get like super

into it because i don't want to get into

like the weeds on this that's fine i

don't know

because maybe you know maybe right maybe

you just don't have the facts off hand

you know that's fine yeah um

all i'm saying is that in general i

don't think it should be too

disagreeable to say

that the russia interference attempts

were a bit more on the nose

than the media being what does russia's

interference amount to

so far you mentioned they were just

telling the truth revealing the truth

and what do you think that can i so can

i see a question yeah if

um let's say that there are two teachers

in a classroom and they conduct a class

in a certain way if i leak

one teacher's personal information um do

you think that's good that i've told the

truth

no no destiny leaking the inner workings

of a political machine

is nowhere near comparable to leaking

person but it was only one political

machine do you not see the problem with

that

the democrats who but that's not

comparable to leaking personal

information if we live in a democracy

like

it's not about weight so why are you

inventing the transparency of our

democratic institutions aren't we

because transparency of one side is not

transparency

yes it is destiny just because they

didn't leak the republican stuff

doesn't mean they didn't tell the truth

and revealed how the democrats

uh you know were rat fucking bernie

pretty much and i'm just i just i mean

real quick let's say that you have two

people running for an election and both

of them murder one person

and we find out through leaks that we

know that one of them is a murderer and

everybody decides to vote for the other

person

was transparency good in that way or not

here's the issue with that comparison

wait

yeah there's two there's two issues with

the comparison can you just well can you

just answer the comparison no i'm gonna

i'm gonna

develop the argument there's two issues

with the comparison destiny the first

comp

issue is that it's too personalized

we're dealing with institutions that

deal with society as a democracy so it's

too personalized it's a minor issue

the second issue is that would make more

sense

if the guy who won in the republicans

case was in a vested uh

by establishment oh trump's the

establishment too but he's not

he's not part of the political

establishment trump won the republican

primary

it's not like jeb bush won so it would

be more relevant if jeff bush won

because then it would say oh the

republicans rigged it in favor of the

established vested interests

but trump i know he's part of the elite

and stuff or whatever

but as far as the political uh the

republican party is concerned he was

definitely a political outsider so

that's what i consider the difference to

be

okay none of this has anything to do

with my question why not my question

is two people are running for office

they're both murderers

and information is leaked that shows you

that one of them was a murderer

so everybody votes what's the murder in

this case

what's the crime murder

no no what is the what is your analog

analogizing

i just want you to note so i'm just i'm

trying to be this 2021 is the year of me

trying to be more rhetorically effective

okay so i'm going to tell you what's

going on in my head right now

in my head i feel like you know that you

have utterly lost this point so you're

refusing to engage destiny

you didn't address points you can't

answer this you didn't address my points

i raised two points you didn't address

it it makes it feel like you

dude destiny your example sucked your

examples suck dude don't say you want me

that's fine if my example suck you

should still be able to engage with it

okay i'll engage with them what was your

example okay if two if one person

murdered and the other one didn't

but what if we know it's much it's plain

as day much more likely that the person

where it was leaked

murdered it's not likely the other

person murdered anyone just like it's

not likely that the republicans ripped

it in favor of trump

it is not likely that the republicans

rigged it in favor of trump we can

we can infer that pretty easily we're

not talking about just

that's so this is a very simplistic view

the political parties don't just

exist to rig an election there could be

a million other things that they rig

right it might be related to

gerrymandering it might be related okay

but we're focused on how they fuck

bernie over

that's what we're concerned about is

that's the only thing you care about for

the political parties that's right

yes as a fellow

as a fellow bernie supporter veteran

from 2016

of course that's what i care about

bernie was our guy bernie was a fucking

guy man he was our vision for america

that is what i care about man i

understand what you're saying i have a

far more vested interest in politics

than whether or not the one guy that i

support wins one election

but bernie represented the people

destiny he represented

people why didn't he believe in 2020 so

hard then what's that

why did he lose so hard in 2020 you want

me to want me to tell you my uh red pill

answer

sure i think the left fuck bernie over

2020

how because i think they didn't humble

themselves and learn them

learn the uh learn the uh consequences

and lessons from trump

in 2016. they doubled down on a

completely artificial um

fake left extremism they doubled down

all this dumb antifa stuff

and all this kind of uh socialism aspect

but they don't know what socialism is in

america it's still kind of foreign they

double down on all that kind of stuff

and they they were bernie's campaign was

run

by metropolitan elites who didn't

establish any contact with america's

flyover states and rust belt

the the people the american people they

didn't reach out to these

people they were still insular kind of

in their bubble

and that was the extent that to which

they were pushed more left they were

so isolated from regular americans this

is why

the majority of the left would have been

on board with bernie in 2016 but his

campaign

was that radically different in 2020

that he lost the support

yes because after trump won it

radicalized a lot of people and pushed

them farther to the left

okay so supposedly i think it's a

complete fake left

but it made them worse than farther to

the left how on the hell did biden

look it's quite the moderator i know

you're a good faith guy so just

understand

the meaning of what i'm trying to say

when i say pushed farther left i mean

within the context of america

they were pushed farther to the

democratic socialism

socialism kind of thing they doubled

down on that kind of stuff they didn't

learn

the lessons of trump 2016 instead of

doubling down on pro-people

populism for america's majority they

double down on something that only makes

sense for a minority of educated

metropolitan

professional managerial class type

people that's what i'm trying to say

um okay i mean like that's nice

conjecture but we don't really have

any preventing that so i don't know i i

can only go by like pulling down you

don't you don't you don't think that's a

reasonable thing to say based on your

common sense

i think that common sense if i appeal to

occam's razor here it's probably just

that

bernie was too far left in 2016 and he

was too far left in 2020

um once a more moderate candidate this

is the promise that politics explains

almost everything that is destiny

this is the issue with the political

spectrum it's not that destiny was

more uh too far they're just completely

different meaning of the left in 2016

because a lot of conservatives

and moderates were backing bernie

because he was the anti-establishment

guy

they don't care about this artificial

political spectrum they care about where

he stands concretely

in relation to this antagonism this

contradiction between two things

anti-establishment got less popular for

2020

i think it was extremely obfuscated by

the fact that trump won

and there was an artificial political

division where it seemed like the left

is on the side of the status quo

and it seemed like uh trump was the one

monopolizing the the populistic

sentiment

yeah trump got so many more votes in

2020 than he did in 2016. it doesn't

seem like he

that's kind of it's like isn't that for

my point

well no because you're trying to say

that auntie is because my question is is

why where did all the people that

support bernie went why is it that they

seemed to they they went

from honor they went to trump they went

to trump

okay i don't think there's any polling

data that supports that but yeah a lot

of

a lot of bernie people from 2016 went to

trump you don't know about that they

voted for trump and the

a lot of them voted for trump and i'd

like to attack bernie supporters a ton

and if that was true i'd be using it to

attack wait

wait you don't know that in 2016

bernie's michigan supporters

a lot of them went and voted for trump

against hillary

when you say a lot i i don't think that

i'm not saying most but a pretty

significant amount right

yeah my i think it was like it was in

the low it was like ten or twelve

percent

thanks that's a lot dude that's a lot

especially because of the political

spectrum divide

how do you accomplish that with the

political surrounding primaries not

necessarily i don't think it was like

this massive blowout that people were

you don't think there's a there's a

there was a uh um

a wronged bernie to trump pipeline there

was dude

okay you don't think there was i

i this is like conjecture that i don't

care by that forget about the the

polling data you don't think there

was yeah i mean i'm sure there were some

disinfectants writers i'm sure

you don't think that's a real connection

in reality that was made

i mean i'm sure it is to some extent

sure it just says it's a very big

picture

see what happens when you use common

sense it makes reality clear

you know you can't approach it in a

robotic way man

by the way i like talking to you way

more than vosh and i'm a

tanky by the way okay

um but um what i'm confused about with

you destiny is that

as far as i know like why why did you

i get that you were disillusioned with

the left and stuff but why did you go

down the route of like defending kamala

and defending

you know like the liberal establishment

aren't you a guy from nebraska so you

should be down with the populism and

stuff right

populism is aids i'm not a big populist

supporter why not

because it rots the british don't you

understand

don't you understand dave you're

prosperous destiny don't you understand

that the form of media

that you participate in is inherently

populistic you're outside of the

mainstream media haven't you ever

pondered upon that contradiction

in in uh content and your political

content you've kind of seen very pro

establishment pro status quote type of

guy like for example with the wall

street bets hole type of thing

but in actual form how about okay okay

running this as a narrative is cancerous

if there's like a particular position

that i've given that you disagree with

or a particular policy that i've given

you

then you can point for that but like the

telling stories is something that

okay okay as far as possible give me

something yeah because this is yeah

like you can all spin stories just i

can't engage much with this i just

yeah oh okay okay you want to go down

that rod that's okay so as far as

policies are concerned let's see

so after bernie was

fucked over by the democratic party both

times

by the democratic party he made the

voters that didn't vote for emilia go

ahead

no by the democratic party who fucked

him they did they weren't fair even if

he wasn't

the more popular candidate they didn't

play fair they didn't play for how did

they how did they not play fair in 2020

in 2020 because what about that whole p

buddha judge fuckery that was going on

in uh iowa huh what fuckery

the story that was coming out they they

pretty much uh in politically correct

terms there's a lot of

indication to suggest there's a lot of

rat fuckery going on in favor of

zero indications to suggest that i

disagree

that's great but the right i disagree

there are a lot of indications

that that kind of what else um if you

want to talk about the shadow app we can

but i mean like it depends on how

conspiracy theory written you want to

get into that

um here the the true takeaway from iowa

that we should all know is that caucuses

suck and you should never want to use a

cognitive you believe any

conspiracies are real or because it

seems like every time there's a

conspiracy theory you automatically want

to side with the conclusion that it's

bullshit

which might mean if there's like

evidence for a conspiracy then yeah of

course conspiracies happen shane

like what conspiracy's name song oh i

mean like the air unconscious stuff

happened

um but but even if i tried to

investigation happened

like but cnn will admit all those things

happened is there anything you think

that the establishment covers up

and uh won't admit that's a conspiracy i

think in this particular media

environment i think it's very

hard to cover stuff up a lot of stuff

has been leaked there's a lot of

information there's a lot of cell phone

videos there's a lot of i think that

like trying to

cover up stuff okay for example we're

not for wikileaks would the

with that would you be what you're

saying is true wikileaks is the one is

the reason for that destiny if we didn't

have wikileaks we wouldn't know about

all these things

so you say all these things wikileaks

leaked thousands of emails and the one

thing that we found was that the donna

brazile lady leaked uh email art leaked

uh interview questions to hillary's

campaign there was other stuff too man

i can't i can't i don't have it ready

everything i'm kind of surprised i

didn't find more

there was other stuff there was other

stuff don't get it twisted there was

other stuff

there was the stuff about how what did

they say about they want to kneecap

bernie who said that that one uh weirdo

guy do you think they actually wanted to

kill him

no no but i mean like they wanted to rap

fuck and kneecap him

using their institutional contacts and

their msm you know

their web of bullshit okay

um come on man be more like

i thought we're gonna have a debate

you're just accepting everything i'm

saying i can't like

i like to debate policy and i like to

debate like stuff like that like going

over the like okay i want to debate your

philosophy then i want can i debate that

philosophy

sure because when you debate policy you

assume you assume

a type of god's eye view where you're

already in charge but here's the paradox

as a marxist leninist who's used to this

kind of stuff except when it comes to

communism

even leftists get this wrong when you

just assume what do i want my policies

to be and what do i want my society to

be

you are neglecting the actual um

concrete mechanism by which

that is able to be realized if you have

a lot of bright ideas i'm sure in terms

of policy destiny

just like andrew yang did but unless you

have a populistic momentum that can

somehow uh

bypass and overcome the establishment

you're stuck with our

wretched and rotting status quo which

i'm sure you recognize as

outdated wretching and rotting

uh in in what regard like you can't just

say i want this to be the policy

you have to take into account how can

this policy concretely be implemented

you can't just say everyone's stupid and

i'm smart because they don't agree with

me

you have to that's not what i do hold on

do you understand that that's exactly

what you're

doing right that's the exact because all

you want to do is talk about your broad

overview ideas of things and say that

people are missing this i'm the one that

wants to talk no you're missing it i

think people i talk to and everybody

like

which one is better no no don't get it

twisted people i talk to in everyday

life

get it i'm saying you miss it okay

bro come on be hostile don't just accept

like i want i don't i don't want it to

be this easy

it's not easy we're not having like a

real conversation right now yes we are

man i'm talking to as a human being

yeah but

i i don't know what i'm supposed to say

to this fuck i got so turned off

is it because i don't have enough clout

for you to take my argument seriously

no it's just because we're growing very

fast if that's the issue are really

stupid

and really boring like i don't know okay

okay explain why it's stupid why is it

stupid

go ahead because this is so far removed

from what exists right now in the

political reality like

we might as well be arguing about like

whether star wars okay okay you want to

know what i think exists right

right this has nothing okay okay okay

let me tell you what i think exists now

what i think exists now is that biden

is uh establishment has consulted this

new centrist

establishment aligned with silicon

valley has consolidated itself

and now infrared is intervening because

we want to create a new political

platform um okay tell me about your new

political platform

okay sure so infrared we call ourselves

marxist leninist in the age of

multi-polarity in the post-covered world

we think that now is a ripe opportunity

to intervene

in the political sphere and put out an

alternative to the fake

uh brexit okay can you tell me a little

bit about the alternative what are some

things that you guys push for that you

feel like the mainstream is not pushing

for

push for in terms of what what do you

want to do

well the thing is destiny is that things

like medicare for all well-established

policy proposals that people who are

smarter than me have already come up

with because i'm not

pretending to be so smart that i'm going

to be able to create all the policies on

my own

i do say things like though let's learn

from china let's be more like china

china's civilization

and form of statehood is superior to

ours we should learn from how they

deal with problems that we similarly

face as we can see with the covet crisis

as we could see with the ineptitude of

the american state

have you heard of caleb caleb maupin

speaks of the need of a government of

action for working families

infrared believes that too

okay fuck i didn't bring my meme energy

to this conversation why are you

standing up while you're talking to me

i'm standing up because uh i don't know

i'm just at a more rested

state this way it's like it's like my

energy is being diffused

because you know like if i was sitting

down i'd probably be more aggressive you

know what i'm saying

look how beautiful our channel is isn't

it beautiful

they can't even see your face on the

camera when i turn the camera up a

little bit

there we go is that better

hold on i'm waiting for it to catch up

hold on i'm still waiting

now you can see him you see me

um

i'm sorry guys i feel like i've been too

immersed

what are some worse things and i'm

losing my online edge destiny destiny

what are some

controversial ideas that are

non-mainstream that you think as a

policy should i do

hold on i just asked you for a platform

and you just like gave me the biggest

like nothing salad in the world

it's it's bernie's platform and it's the

platform of the progressives that have

already

i don't i don't think i'm smart enough

to create a platform in contrast

why are you creating a new platform then

is that essentially what you're saying

oh you mean you mean you mean

you mean a political platform or a media

platform we are creating a media

platform no

a political platform you say that you

have a whole new political platform what

is it tell me about it

what do you want to do currently

existing political platforms

we think that a contemporary marxist of

leninism can clarify the reasons why

bernie failed in 2020

and why the progressive movement has can

you tell me how

how well firstly firstly this is why i

think marxism leninism

is specifically relevant one of the

contradictions we're dealing with when

it comes to 2020 and bernie's platform

is this issue of

the fact that the people who are

becoming enlightened about

socialism and democratic socialism are

in material reality

estranged from the broad masses of

people

who are necessary to actually realize

their position it's a paradox

on the one hand you have people claiming

to represent america's working class

but on the other hand the very means by

which you can be initiated into this new

ideology

requires you to be part of a special

little insulated

metropolitan club that's divorced from

america's

working people and in my view things

like the materialist

dialectic allow you to clarify this

contradiction and overcome it

wait can i real quick are you friends

with um are you friends with a streamer

called denims

uh friends is a little bit of a stretch

but i have interacted with him

with him with them i said them oh

yeah okay okay

apparently you come highly recommended

from denims i just i thought that was

funny that's i

have a you know what i'm saying i mean

my debate with voss was very aggressive

but that's because you're so

disrespectful

and you've been so respectful honestly

you've been so respectful i'm surprised

i thought you'd be worse oh well thanks

voss was really dismissive to me really

disrespectful

because you know tankies they think they

can just respect us but it's not going

to happen anymore with infrared because

we're rising

you know tankies they're going to put

some respect on our name

wait is vasha tanky no no he disrespect

me because i'm a tanki because he

tankies are weak but tankies are the new

strong you understand

i didn't know that um well what uh what

elections are you guys going for in the

u.s how are you going to grow your

your political power for now we want to

clarify

the reality the situation that's what we

think is immediate what does that mean

when you say clarify do you want to like

publish

we think there are confusions that bog

down first

and foremost partisans of leftism and

socialism

we want people to be able to comfortably

establish contact with america's broad

masses and build

a true popular alternative to the

democrats

and the two-party system which is now

merging into a one-party centrist

consensus we're all about jimmy dore and

we're all about that

royal road to a new party we're humble

though we're not saying we got all the

answers we're going to create a new

party

we just want to help this objective

momentum that we see in reality

subjective striving and tendency

for a truly new alternative in american

politics

which is a platform that will be able to

realize a lot of

crazy cool ideas you know like andrew

yang's got ideas i'm sure you got a lot

of bright ideas but

you're not going to ever be able to

realize them as long as we have this

rotten establishment

has anyone ever told you you kind of

sound like a cult leader

okay that's fine what about me why are

you why am i a call leader and not you

go ahead

well because i try to keep what i say

grounded in the real world and every

time i ask you a question about what it

is you guys stand for what you want to

do or what you okay what's so

unreal what's so unreal about what i'm

saying you haven't told me like any

material thing you guys have done yet

have you like formed a party

to you what qualifies as a material

thing so i don't know like have you like

supported a candidate have you formed a

party in any state have you guys like

organized like you know the area like

you guys have like positions that you

use that's or

before that's precisely not material

because we recognize our limitation we

can support whoever we want

but first and foremost we have to

realize our limitations as far as who's

going to listen to us

right and who's going to listen to you

right now a lot of people dude

two days ago i had 400 subscribers i

doubled it i have

i have 200 viewers right now and my chat

is more active than yours both on twitch

and youtube

my chat is more active why do you think

you we had this debate right now

i'm a nobody because of my chat they're

so hyper active

that's why i debated vosh and saturday

and xander though on friday

how do you think a nobody like me is

able to debate somebody like you if not

for that

because somebody messaged me on discord

and they said infrared wants to debate

denim said she wants both of you to

debate here's the guy and then i said

okay sure but you didn't see any of my

people in your chats

i don't know i actually don't know i

genuinely don't tell them to it might

have been i mean i was having a

more serious conversation before this

one so they might have been in there and

i just missed them

vosh and xander tall and that's how they

that's how i debated them it's all been

in one weekend don't you realize it's

kind of crazy

like we are the future man we're not

going nowhere i'm not a leader

you know what i'm saying you know yeah

do you know who john zarco is just

kidding

yeah oh are you guys like friends

uh i'm not gonna disclose nothing

okay uh what's okay moving on

moving on to the point i'm actually not

a cult leader destiny because infrared

is a collective about

11 12 people i'm just the guy who's

stupid enough to put myself out later

like this because i got nothing to lose

and i just want to grow this because

this is what i believe in right now you

know what i'm saying

contrast so what are your plans to grow

when you say grow this you just mean get

more subs on your youtube channel

it's happening now like this is an

example of doing it right

yeah well that's what i'm asking what

you mean by growing you mean just get

more subs on your youtube channel right

no and twitch we want to do twitch and

youtube

okay fair like what do you think about

infrared intervening in the political

sphere and shaking it all up like who do

you support red tube or infrared because

that's the battle that's being waged

right now

and we're gonna probably have another

debate in the future when we get bigger

but who do you side with right now in

this civil war is going on among the

left

i don't know that's a ha that's a hard

one to think about um

both sides are so powerful here you know

yeah but like we're the underdog right

i don't know man i think you might be

discounting how much power you guys have

like i've been in some redtubers chats

and they're not even half as active as

your chat is

you're not lying you're not even me

sarcastic you can't be sarcastic man

look at our chat

it's insane our twitch chat isn't our

youtube chat is not our twitch our

youtube

our twitch chat is a little bit we have

about 100 viewers it's our twitch chat i

mean it's our youtube chat

but um yeah i mean like we are going to

become a thing is what i'm trying to say

so like

before like i don't want you to come out

one day and be like these guys are

dangerous

they should be deep platform because

like ahead of time like just assume

we're already really big do you think

we're dangerous we'd be deep platformed

oh should it be deep platform man i

don't know it's a whole other dangerous

like are you wearing

bodies yeah you guys will definitely

become dangerous for sure

really you think so oh yeah i mean wow

if you've got if your chat's this active

at this small of a number imagine if you

had 1 000 viewers and you kept the same

chat activity

yeah streams with like 20 000 viewers

for sure right

yeah yeah but we're going to shake up

the whole political culture it's

happening

definitely and you're not being

sarcastic are you i hope you're not

i mean we can all see what i'm saying

it's true right of course

of course i mean if you saw how fast we

grew and where we've been growing

you know you've been at this for like 15

years and we just started like a few

months ago you know what i'm saying

and your chat's basically like at my

level activity which is pretty crazy

because i've got so many more viewers so

yeah

yeah so basically in this debate not to

uh resume hostilities but can i just say

you conceded the debate

um i think that's fair yeah so like i

beat you in this debate basically you

don't want to like fight back or

anything

i don't know if i even can't i mean

everything you've said has just been

so true you know also you're pretending

to be sarcastic because you can't

actually beat me in a debate

i think sometimes people pretend to be

sarcastic so they can hide behind it

it's a crutch

it's not like what you're doing now

exactly so i can just say like oh i

didn't lose the debate so i was like

well you kind of didn't it's like love

just being sarcastic right

yeah so why are you actually admitting

you lost because i respect you if you

did that

yeah that's what i've said like 20 times

you're not being sarcastic

really well i kind of sound sarcastic

but i know i'm being sarcastic so like

does it really count as sarcasm if i'm

not being sarcastic as a defensive tool

right uh can you slow down a little bit

i just lost you there

i'm being sarcastic and we both know

that i'm being sarcastic and it's not

really sarcasm right so maybe i'm just

being defensive

but maybe me acknowledging it right now

is a way to get around that or maybe

that's just

still admitting it who knows bro come on

listen you're the titan of

like take me down man like show me what

you got

i honestly got i don't think i've ever

been this intimidated i thought you

don't know if i can't

i thought you were against like the left

maybe it's just like the

bread tube left is your problem right

maybe if you were educated in the

marxism leninism you join us

what um what do you have for a

recommended reading i guess i can get a

little bit more educated

on this for real

no way tell me okay i think philosophy

is your what you want to do right

because you like your philosophy right

oh yeah you wanted to argue about

philosophy what did you have i always

tell beginners who want to get into this

marxism stuff honest to god i don't

agree with him

100 percent but g-check is such a nice

introduction

because he connects everything to

popular culture and stuff but you have

to read him with an open mind you know

you can't just say oh this is nonsense

like uh

the analytical uh school does to all the

continental thinkers you have to

actually read him and like

try to see the meaning he's trying to

arrive at you know

yeah for sure but he'll introduce you to

this kind of tradition this stuff

yeah i don't tell people like for

example to read the classics of marxism

leninism

because those were written 100 years ago

in today's day and age they don't really

make sense immediately right

real quick because i know capital

obviously what are some other classics

or marxist leninism ago

well since we're talking about marxism

leninism you have things like

one of the most famous ones is lenin's

imperialism the highest stage

people like the state and the revolution

i think a kind of neglected one is

lenin's and now the development of

capitalism in russia

uh was a really good one that a lot of

people neglect i think actually has

contemporary relevance for the situation

in america

and the rest can you uh yeah when you

say that what are some of the

contemporary relevance you think of

london's work

sure sure so with regard to the

development of capitalism in russia is

that what you want to be in

yeah lenin is very interesting because

traditionally with marxists

right traditionally with marxist you

have a kind of dogmatic

static view of class and you say the

proletariat are the ones

in the factories the peasants are the

ones in the countryside and the

bourgeoisie are the urban

whatever capitalists right for sure

lenin in his brilliance because he was a

materialist

lenin saw that

the fundamental class division between

the proletariat and the bourgeoisie

was itself being reproduced in the

countryside

among the peasants the fundamental

differentiations

that give rise to class as far as

marxism are concerned were being born

anew and afresh

so lenin had this kind of view of of

class he didn't simply say the

proletariat are already

the ones in the factories or or they're

already the bouzout the big city

bourgeoisie

the reason lenin was a successful

revolutionary is because for him

he rejected the stageism according to

which

this is vasha's stages and by the way

vosh's position that socialists must

side with the big city big liberal

bourgeoisie

against tsarism or in voss's case

authoritarianism or fascism or something

for lenin lenin said it is the popular

democratic petite bourgeoisie

in the countryside the peasants they are

the ones who the proletariat must ally

with

because the liberal bourgeoisie is

inexorably connected

uh to the autocracy the contemporary

relevance of this i think

is that a lot of people don't recognize

and this is kind of i guess my

uh unique i don't want to say it's my

own unique it's oliver is infrared

our view of marxism is that we don't

view the peasantry

as a class of the pe as a strict class

in a sense the only two real classes in

marxism are the proletariat in the

bourgeoisie

the peasantry rather than a class

is a um is this is a formation

is the material uh is the popular

reality of the polity

political policy of some kind it's the

popular basis of states

for example so in america you have a

type of peasantry we call this the

so-called rust belt working classes this

was the kind of

um middle class of the uh post-war

baby boomer 20th century who had you

know a factory job and then they had a

you know

they had their proverbial plot of

peasant land they had the um

what they say the white picking fence

and the family and all that kind of

stuff

so this is a kind of re uh re uh

rebirth of the peasantry you know so it

has a wait i'm just curious insofar as

how that world is established um

which world do you think that the uh do

you think that that world is flat

or right

okay destiny what

some people would argue that the the

bourgeois might use scientific

institutions to oppress the proletariat

that they give them

you know false interpretations of

reality what language have i used to

allow you to dismiss me in such a

dishonest i was just i was just curious

what language have i used so far that

it justifies you the meanness and

dismissiveness that you're showing me

here

i'm not being mean or dismissive okay it

was just a simple question

okay i'm sorry that i upset you so much

with it i mean uh

is there an argument can anyone debate

me and beat me that's my question

i would look up the streamer on twitch

called john zurka he's like the best or

train wrecks does um

uh anal uh he does analytical philosophy

why are you being so why are you hiding

your power level why are you being so

arrogant

what are you talking about you seem like

you're blind legitimately telling you

you seem like you're bluffing how did

how did we get from you trying to call

my bluff about marxism which i use as an

opportunity to introduce some new ideas

how did we get to that from that to flat

earth

um it's kind of arrogant you know just

because what i don't sound like a

fucking uh

nerd and i don't sound like a fucking uh

i'm sorry i'm not even allowed to ask

you a question

without you getting upset about it you

think that was a good faith question you

were being honest when you're asking

that question

yeah of course it was i was just curious

it helps engage your interest in the

sciences it

helps me understand okay i think this is

a contribution controversial view of

mine

i think lysenko was kind of right yeah

yeah that you can laugh at me and

dismiss you for that one you know like

that's like one of the ones that a lot

of people like you would laugh at me

about you know

do you think do you believe all genetics

are fake or what is a gene

well it depends if you're talking levi's

or do you think lysenko denied dna

a little bit yeah oh did he did he now

but dna wasn't invented until much later

after the invented or discovered sorry i

discovered much later

who cares i i misspoke it wasn't

discovered so much later

so he might have been denying dna how

could could he have been

huh why is it that american scientists

were sympathetic

to lysenko until the cold wars uh

pretty much you know ramped up why is

that

do you think it was like politically

motivated of course it was

and explicitly so you can read about how

it was explicitly true

they thought lysenko by defeating

lysenko they would be defeating marxism

as a whole

explicitly their own words something

like all of those i'll try to find the

book and send it to you if you want

it's not written by a a lysenko it's

written by someone who

doesn't like lysenkoism but it's like a

broad history of

the debate between the mendelian

geneticists and the

uh the lysenkulis and and how it was

playing out in america it's an excellent

book

completely completely non-uh

non-communist artisan

well if it's partisan it's in favor of

uh the west it's in favor of uh

mendelian geneticist

gene is a metaphysical concept destiny

really of course

are you a scientist you know that

scientific anti-realism or whatever

no you don't need to bring all this

other stuff into it okay ours is curious

are you familiar with lysenko's writings

let me ask you a question how much about

lysenko do you know to dismiss him as

as quickly as you do

to dismiss him um my understanding was

that lisenko wasn't real big on

um kind of like the newly emerging

information about how

agriculture worked that they kind of

rejected the notion of genes or

inherited traits or whatever

and they were looking at more like

non-mendelian inheritances in other

words was

was lysenko rejecting inherited traits

yeah um in in so far as how it was

described by

contemporary biologists at the time yeah

they might have had some other way of

doing it but my understanding was that

were those contemporary biologists

uh right completely right um not

completely but they were more right than

lysenko was

uh and how do you measure that how do

you come to that conclusion

uh based on agricultural output based on

the things that

do you think the present knowledge uh

scientists have about how

so-called genes work is not written with

uh contradiction that knowledge is

pretty much said and done and sealed you

know

do you know what modern evolutionary

synthesis is do you think that all

things that are wrong are the same level

of wrongness

i didn't say that but what since you

have do you think that it's possible

that one person can be wrong but another

person can be more wrong

since you haven't read a word of

lysenkos and you're not actually

familiar

with any of lysenko's ideas i'm just

curious about how you arrive at these

seemingly has anything i said so far

been wrong you seem to keep asking me

questions i don't think i was incorrect

i'm just curious about that in

contradiction to what biologists or

agriculturalists thought about the time

for how plants inherited traits curious

about how you've arrived

like how have you arrived at that

conclusion it's quite curious

so you know wikipedia article here uh uh

plato.stanford link here you know how it

goes you think you think

uh without reading the other side you've

arrived in an exhaustive knowledge of

the subject matter

i would consider myself to be quite the

expert on um like hisenko yen and ism

yeah i didn't say that but you really

think you've read enough to arrive at a

fair conclusion to dismiss me and laugh

at me when i bring up my sense i want to

ask

both you in the hospital i wasn't

dismissing you you were laughing at

yourself you were laughing when i

brought up life

with me and i only brought it up because

we do need some we do need to get this

debate going

because i do need some hostility from

you it's i'm feeling bad

right now because i've i've been trying

to argue with you and you seem to just

passively accept everything i say and it

makes me feel kind of bad i want

something

i have like three other like really big

content things that i could be going

over right now that i'm like show me

some teeth

destiny what is going on i'm getting

like john

lefty debates and so i'm not very

energized for this particular thing why

not

but once we become big you'll be

energized right

not necessarily no yeah it's about as

long as i was for my hypocrite debate

like it was just kind of sad

and butch with destiny yeah that's my

name you don't even want to

uh to be uh defeat me

show some teeth my friend god you sound

just like zerka

okay you might actually be circa i'm not

wholly convinced that you aren't

no what that guy done it

why don't you read any of these i don't

i don't have donations and we haven't

monetized our shit

shit how's yet revolution going to start

we're not making any fucking paper

um what up six i got too many followers

right i just got like a bunch of

followers man too many to count

um yeah i can't read them all out but uh

so i think i think this is what's going

on destiny

because we're so because we're so new to

the game

you don't feel like we're enough of a

threat to actually want

to have any type of debate with us but

once we do become big and we become a

thing

like we become bigger than avos and all

than people you know what i'm saying

then then all of a sudden you're going

to want to have bloodsport debate with

me right

um we'll see okay

i mean you know i defeated vos though

right so i'm pretty much the new big guy

in town

did you do like 50k overnight on that

video

who you on that wash debate i thought

not 50k but i defeated him oh okay

so you don't got to worry about voss no

more he's he's yesterday's guy

that's good yeah yeah

okay so let's debate about something

um who do you think was a better fighter

naruto or sosuke

no no let's debate about something real

politically

something you're passionate about

politically

um oh man i

why why do you think russia intervened

in 2016 how did they fucking

meaningfully intervene let's go let's go

with that

why or how how was it how can you how is

it not

a ideological spin to call that an

intervention into our democratic process

don't you think that's a little bit

misleading it kind of has the

connotation

that they were like rigging the fucking

election machines or something when they

were just spreading means

they were wrecking the election but but

why does the media spin it that way when

all they were fucking doing

how does it constitute intervention in a

uh another nation's election when the

internet is supposed to be

free and open according to the liberal

ideology does it mean that you're

allowed to hack into databases to

publish information so that's the extent

of russia's intervention or is it the

fake news which one

probably both i think there were

indictments related to both of those

things why could there be an

okay i want to focus on fake news then

why was there an indictment uh related

to fake news

because they set up a fake company in

the united states they didn't disclose

that they were getting foreign funding

and then they were using that to

influence americans opinions on the news

okay and isn't that what the free and

open internet is according to the

liberal etiologist of internet policy

within the united states it's a free and

open internet

therefore you know it's just now they're

trying to change it and become more like

china too late

liberalism lost don't you think

uh what yeah free and open internet is

not

foreign companies or foreign countries

setting up companies who cares

who cares who was doing it who cares if

it was a company well that's pretty

important because

it's just information it's just

information on the free and open

internet it doesn't matter if a company

is doing it it doesn't matter

information that's expressly why does

the intention matter is my question why

does the intention matter

because that's what the law well legally

because that's what we've just said is

laws and then morally ethically

legally where legally is the intention

what matters

when you're getting payments from

foreign actors to engage in political

work

there's political disclosings there's

filings that need to be made so

funding memes on the internet is

political work according to america's

laws

yeah yeah okay that seems a bit

arbitrary now don't you think and it

seems a little bit illiberal how can

information

constitute the intention of uh

of intervening into a country's house

how can information

intervene on the free and open internet

yeah i think you don't have to look at

the memes

it's like bro just turn off your

computer and walk away just turn off the

computer walk away

just go read go remo in diamonds you can

google it right now

listen everything i've seen on this

russiagate bullshit

has been a lot of words talking about

nothing alluding to things

nothing concrete nothing common there

are concrete indictments there's like a

dozen indictments yes there's

there was a whole legal show but the

substance of that

legal show was nothing about what was it

that what do you mean it lays out very

clearly from

yes it uses so much language to say

russians were sharing memes on the

internet who gives a fuck

okay you so you agree it's stupid that

they call it

intervention not as dumb as your mama's

but you agree it's stupid they call it

intervention right

no why not

uh go go read the in diamonds okay

listen you're telling me to go read the

indictments but i'm talking i love you

i'm talking to you destiny why should i

read the indictments

how did russia intervene i've already

told you like five times

you didn't tell me i told you how is it

that posting memes on the internet on

the free and open internet this was the

liberal ideologists of internet policy

who were calling china's one outdated

turns out china's one was more advanced

now we all accept that

um but according to that view the only

sovereignty that exists on the internet

for example is that

you can set up your own website you can

you can censor it on that basis you can

do it on that basis

and then they also have laws against

things like you know

child i don't want to say anything

bannable but they have those kinds of

laws and against snuff stuff so there

are regulations about what you can and

can't share

but as far as political speech is

concerned don't you think this is

something unprecedented

trying to regulate political speech in

this type of way just because of what do

you mean

political speech is heavily regulated

already there's all sorts of on the

internet

yes so when there's nothing relating to

violence when there's nothing related to

that matter how is political

educate me i don't know this actually

sure if you're a 501c3 for instance you

can't engage in any type of political

messaging whatsoever

i'm a stupid guy what's a 501c3 it's a

filing that you do for an organization

that makes it so that all the money that

you earn is tax exempt

but there's heavy restrictions in terms

of the language that you're allowed to

use in the messenger allowed you to

related to it you can have a 501 c4

that's allowed to engage you in a

certain level of political messaging but

you still need to make um

or and then as individuals when you

donate to campaigns you've got to make

filings

with the 501c for example is it just

that they can't engage in political

messaging with their brand or they can't

use for example let's say they rent out

an office downtown and they all have

computers

like tell me the intricacies of how it

works isn't it that they just can't use

their brand to do it or what

i don't know maybe they'll give you like

a detailed breakdown of everything

because i'm not going to but you you

have to listen even these nyt

cnn what i'm telling you when i'm

telling you that if you engage in work

with on behalf of a political campaign

there are filings that have to be done

there okay sure

but how is that how is for example let's

say you're on the job and you're going

on your phone

and you're doing you're spreading

political memes like how do you

determine whether it's related

to the organization that is uh

prohibited from doing it or not is my

question

well i guess that's up to your personal

discretion and then the discussion of

the fec if they investigate you

okay but you don't think it's it's an

unprecedented development in the history

of uh

um internet uh internet uh policy in the

united states they're now having this

issue of

fake news and now they're going to clamp

down on political speech in this

unprecedented way trying to use

in a legal way because even cnn and nyt

are noting the significance of that you

seem to be denying it i'm interested why

are noting the significance of not

having foreign actors setting up fake

businesses in the united states in order

to mislead americans

i don't think anybody just this is a bad

thing it's completely irrelevant that

they were setting up businesses what

matters is

what they were doing on the internet on

the surface level of the internet it

doesn't matter that they had

businesses who can they're always

focusing on the intentions the russians

want this

putin wants this nothing would please

putin better who cares what putin wants

why is that legally hey hold on are you

being wait are you being real i can't

tell this is a real conversation or not

why can't you tell it's a real

conversation okay can i go for two

seconds

without you cutting me off how can you

not understand that a foreign country

by the direction of their government

that establishes fake corporations

inside your own country that betrays

your own fpc filing laws that has a

strict set of regulations around how

you're allowed to advertise things on

internet related politics okay how can i

tell that that's something that is wrong

and should be avoided because all of

those things you just mentioned

let me finish please let me finish i

asked for like two minutes okay

designing me okay

why would you compare those activities

okay of a foreign government

that is misleadingly and illegally

creating a corporation to spread memes

on the internet to mislead people

politics why would you compare that to

an endemic

national company corporation doing the

same thing that's following all the laws

and and is morally within the right to

be because by your own admission all

those fucking things you mattered are

legally so ambiguous

that you could never you're using strong

language

who cares if it's a foreign country who

cares what their intentions were

this is the liberal internet we're

talking about where there's free speech

now you told you couldn't answer the

question of how they're allowed to

express that speech and and uh how an

organization is prohibited from

expressing speech

because there might be some ambiguity

around the specifics of what specific

thing might need to be reported on a

certain form doesn't mean that the

entire issue is ambiguous

that is such a reductionist okay okay

okay okay okay

let me rephrase it then okay i can't

tell you so in

can you calm down

he left he lost

he lost he lost

he lost dgg i accept your surrender

i accept destiny's surrender

it was that easy i'm gonna see what my

chat thinks

first and foremost my chat how do you

think i did huh

all off the top of my head no

preparation i didn't even know what we

were gonna talk about

what do you think my chat what do you

think chat

what do you think i mean i beat him

obviously when in terms of debate

standards

but it kind of seems like he was

conceding to and he wasn't even willing

to debate

so he was hiding he was bluffing don't

worry we're going to have a real debate

with destiny

but i destroyed destiny in this debate

but i want to title this one

tanki defeats destiny not destroyed

he wasn't destroyed like i destroyed

wash

but he was defeated he was not destroyed

he was defeated he was dismissing me

because of my style

and because of my tone

he wasn't engaging fair and square he

was dismissive

he wasn't addressing the arguments he

started soy rage when i brought up

how is it that they were intervening and

he said well because a foreign actor and

all this other

and i asked him okay then in what sense

are con are companies prohibited

from spreading uh political messaging is

it that they're not allowed to do it on

behalf of their organization as a brand

or how do you determine the limits and

the thresholds here i'm a stupid guy

explain it to me

he couldn't explain it and i think the

reason he can't explain it because they

don't actually know

it's because they don't actually know

this was easy guys this was destiny

i thought this was a smart guy like the

hard guy that everyone struggles with

like i thought this is the guy that's

like the king of political debate

this is disappointing man

like it was better than voss he was way

better than vosh but he was so

dismissive and shit you know

but like i it was kind of disappointing

you know it was kind of disappointing

like like i thought this was the

you know is this easy why is it this

easy

how would you feel if american companies

they were doing that

after the collapse of the soviet union

they were fucking doing that

the cia was coming in the post-soviet uh

all of the support they're still

fucking doing it man don't bring me that

shit

i want to debate someone man i wish i

could have mentioned that in the debate

too

you know like i wish i could have

brought that up america does the same

shit

we know america does the same shit

we will meet again