Haz vs Matthew Heimbach | Politically Provoked Debate 🚀 Infrared Content Catalog

and next up let's bring our fashionably

late mr haas infrared how are you

good how are you

doing good so yeah introduce yourself

tell people where you lie on the

political spectrum and where people can

find you

um sorry i'm just dealing with some

stream stuff

uh

okay we're good so i'm haz from the

infrared collective uh i'm a mark just i

would consider myself an orthodox

marxist leninist

uh in the international sense of the

word like as far as the iranian

communist parties are concerned

but in the western sense of the word we

would be considered quite unorthodox

right as marxist leninists

so

um my view is that uh

basically on this question is that um

i'm completely opposed to the way in

which the western left has interpreted

and translated the experience of 20th

century communism into western countries

and i seek to challenge and re-evaluate

re-evaluate that

right so yeah um here's what we'll do

each person can give i'm hearing myself

echo

um

okay

um yeah so each person given opening

statement can be as little as one minute

no longer than five about the topic and

your stance after that we'll open up the

floor for those watching if you have

questions tag politically provoke so we

know you're talking to us and not the

chat we will get to the q a at the end

and we'll do closing statements and

final thoughts after the q a

so why don't we get started with opening

statements matthew when you get us going

uh sure well again it's uh great to be

here and uh you know for me one of the

most important things i think is to

define terms so we're not talking past

each other accidentally

national bolshevism has been used by a

variety of people in numerous countries

to describe socialism bolshevism that's

neither liberal nor cosmopolitan

in a lot of ways my political and social

philosophy is in line with ho chi minh

for instance who he defined the idea of

patriotism and nationalism as not the

bourgeois definition of a selfish

nationalism a chauvinism but one that

respected the rights and interests of

not only his own national community but

all other nations while not harming

common interests and having an

international uh sense of solidarity

this internationalism should be based on

independence self-reliance and

self-determination which is what i'm

advocating for for my people uh here in

the united states i think one of the

biggest problems is often people look to

historical movements and they try and

shoehorn that essentially into an

american context and you know as kim il

sung said that you know the revolution

cannot be imported it's got to be

naturally developed among the people and

going back to the palmer raids going

back to the first and second red scare

going to cointelpro and all the attacks

that have been levied against

working-class movements in this country

up to and including assassinations of

guys like fred hampton of the black

panther party the real left in the

united states hasn't existed for a very

long time and what does exist is the

sort of settlers variety that you know

they claim that anyone that cares about

class is a quote-unquote class

reductionist and anyone that has an

affirmative ethnic identity is somehow

uh not able to be a socialist i think

that you can be a socialist and have an

affirmative tie to who you are to your

people to your community while still

having that spirit of internationalism

and solidarity so i support

self-determination and i believe that we

really have the ability to not get stuck

diving into abstractions but instead

finding out what the real struggles are

of working people i mean for myself i've

spent over a decade in various forms of

activism

a lot of it based on community

organizing and charity events of working

with real working people and a lot of

the modern left not saying y'all but a

lot of the modern left doesn't really

know what a real working-class person is

or it seems like they have a sense of

classism that that hates and rejects

them so i think we're in a place here in

you know 2021 where a real socialism can

be developed and we can be able to make

real material gains for the working

class and give them a voice and identity

which is part of the human experience

can be an important part of that

all right so you can just jump right in

then

all right so um

just beginning based on what you said

especially initially um

i don't really think i have any

contention with that you know i also

don't think that there's anything

incompatible between

socialism or communism with

the specific civilizational and national

realities of various different peoples

i guess

just based on the face value based on

what you already said i guess what i

would be interested in knowing

what specifically separates your view of

uh i think you call it national

bolshevism from uh from orthodox marxism

leninism because

there's national bolshevism is kind of a

very uh

ambiguous term when i hear it right

because on the one hand it can refer to

the the

the phenomena from the 1990s in in

russia with lemanov and those kind of

people

which i identify as it was a kind of

provocative anarchistic art project

right more or less

and then you can go further in history

and you can talk about

the tendency that originated in germany

but

this tendency was specifically about how

um

it was a specific way of

proposing how to address the treaty of

versailles

so

that was actually a position lenin

addressed

uh in left-wing communism and infiltile

disorder i mean ironically right he's

addressing national bolshevism in his

book that's a critique of the altar

leftist but i agree with lenin on that

position however that um

there could be no question that there

couldn't be an alliance with a big

industrial bourgeoisie

of germany against the treaty of

versailles right

so but beyond that i really don't um

i'm not really too familiar with with

what's called the

national bosses and beyond that context

i don't really know

what would separate it based on the way

you described it from from an orthodox

marxist leninist position

sure well i think one of the most

important things um is you know where i

living in russia right now i would most

likely just be a member of the russian

communist party which of course is a

marxist lead in this party or if i was

chinese i would be a member of the

chinese communist party but here in the

united states you know as caleb maupin

um has identified i think very

accurately the concept of the synthetic

left has really perverted uh with the

exception of just a few voices out there

in the wilderness what marxist leninism

really is so for me

having that element of affirmative

identity which wasn't a question like if

you go back to the 1960s with the

original rainbow coalition that was

founded by fred hampton in the black

panther party they worked with the young

patriots organization which as they were

combating the issues of police brutality

and they were combating the imperialism

of the vietnam war you had guys who you

know were there in their leather jackets

and their berets in the black panthers

next to appalachians that were wearing

confederate battle flags that had their

own affirmative ethnic identity but that

didn't break any form of solidarity and

i mean that's why the fbi said that the

rainbow coalition and fred hampton were

more dangerous to the american way of

life which is capitalism and imperialism

um were more dangerous than the soviet

union in china at the time so for me uh

you know do i have inspirations

obviously from uh national bolshevik

thinkers um like ernst nietzsche and

others yes but in the modern context it

really is just a way of also identifying

that one can be a socialist and a

communist that's separate from like

cpusa or dsa you know the dsa who just

held a vote that uh you know one of

their congressmen is okay with israeli

apartheid and uh war crimes but he can

stay but you know heaven help if someone

in the dsa were to accidentally

misgender someone then you know

obviously they've got to go we don't

really have a serious socialist movement

in the united states so it's a way of

kind of separating instead of having to

dig through for hours of what you mean

by socialism isn't and you know numerous

culture war issues that have nothing to

do with socialism and instead it's and

if you know i have an ethnic identity uh

which is fine it's not to the detraction

of any other ethnic identity or group

and i'm actually a socialist because

right now the american left is uh very

very sad

um

specifically uh when it comes to

applying socialism to american the

american context

still it's it's kind of strange to me

that one would use the term national

bolshevism because this is a term

that i mean the word bolshevism

obviously apply it's a russian name

bolshevik right

also uh

another thing that seems a little uh

strange to me is

the national aspect because the national

question has applied to the united

states is actually a very difficult

and ambiguous question it's one that

i've personally struggled with um a lot

i'm not really convinced that for

example people within appalachia

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constitute a different ethnos right a

specific ethnos

it seems there's a specific um

uh black ethnos right uh you know

specifically we could see the black

panther party and so on and so on

represent that and to be fair a lot of

people don't know this but when huey

newton was confronted with the question

of how can white people support the

black panther party he actually said you

should form your own white panther party

right so

but still i think this is a

simplification because i don't really

think white people in united states

constitute

a unique ethnos beyond being

defined negatively right

separate from all those who fall outside

of this characteristic

like um

it seems to be a word for

one who is

already kind of entwined with

institutions right the more

institutionalized and socialized the

more one falls into this kind of

cultural uh category right

um which is why there's actually more

similarity between rural white people

and black people than there is between

uh black people and white liberals in

the city because the city-wide liberals

are like

they epitomize all of the features one

associates with whiteness right and very

stiff frigid politically correct

but um

to me i think it's very important not to

fall into the era of of anarchism right

i don't believe one should define

themselves purely on the basis of

opposing uh for example opposing the

left i myself oppose the american left

and so on and so on but i'm not willing

to concede

that they have correctly um

they correctly represent the

international left within the united

states that they correctly import the

insight of the experience of communism

and socialism in the united states

and

uh

when

that's why for example it's been a great

source of conflict between me and them

even more in some regards than the way

that they're going to be in conflict

with

like outright writers like the fact that

uh i do remain committed

to the orthodox marxist leninist project

has created more antagonism with these

leftists in the united states then if

were i were i to just be some kind of um

right winger so i don't think it should

be conceded to them

uh

i think we should not take for granted

this categories of left and right what

if it really is a synthetic left and

that the question of communism in united

states is an open question what if they

don't represent

the communism in the united states what

if it's completely different if it were

to be uh

if the correct insights of the

communism elsewhere was applied to

united states

we should have

and by we i mean everyone who

remains committed to

a communist project but opposes american

left

should have uh

a degree of indifference toward leftists

who cares about them they're a tiny

minority of the population right

um they seem intimidating because

they like they they gang up together and

you know they attack people and whatever

on twitter and on social media but in

the grand scheme of things they're not

really that significant so the question

of building communism in the united

states i think remains open question

now uh regarding dsa i think it's a

completely irredeemable bankrupt

organization but

as far as the communist party is

concerned i'm currently wagering that

there's some kind of

possibility of reef rich reforging the

party right specifically by

uh

bringing in

people who are more representative of

the working class within the party right

but we'll see how that how that turns

out but

i guess that's all i have to say for

that sure well i think one of the most

important things is the question of a

white identity and you know for myself

you know what i did my my 23 and me and

my family genealogy and traced back to

where my ancestors came from i was to

southern germany into ireland and i've

been to southern germany i've been to

ireland and while i can see elements of

my family there

even if i spoke fluent german i wouldn't

be able to be airdropped into bavaria

and be a bavarian right like i couldn't

just go live in a small irish village

and be 100 irish and my identity as a

white person was formed through

ethnogenesis here in the united states

so you know understanding ethnicity is

part of the human experience and like

you mentioned you know with black

americans for instance that they came

from dozens of tribal groups national

groups taken against their will to this

country and they formed over the last

several centuries their own unique

identity and that's why for instance you

know after the civil war freed slaves

going back to liberia and stuff like

that they didn't just integrate into the

the west african experience they still

had a lot of their own ethnic identity

so i think it's important that we

positively affirm who we are and work

then in an american context and develop

that because i mean here in the united

states we see the power that racial

divide has been levied against everyone

and uh you know they're you know the

first laws that were passed uh to divide

the working class in this country on the

basis of race were after bacon's

rebellion right when white indentured

servants and black slaves realized that

they had a lot more in common in terms

of material conditions against the

planner class and that's where we see

the introduction of dividing the working

class but that doesn't mean the

identities aren't there and that they

aren't important so i think having um

that as part of our explicit platform

that it's okay to be whoever you are and

to be proud of your heritage not to the

point of chauvinism where you look down

or divide from other people but you know

we need to uphold the right of

self-determination that

lenin marks even you know james connelly

irish republicans like that upheld the

right of self-determination i mean even

the communist party in the 1920s

supported the creation of an independent

black state in america because

i'm not really an american because like

this question is like what is america

and i would say it's essentially

a continental shopping mall right like

it's one big company town that for one

reason or another all of us are here so

i don't think clinging to an american

identity really makes sense but we have

developed unique ethnic identities and

you know we're all members of the

working class and need to be able to

find ways to fight against capitalism

and imperialism when we're stuck in this

asylum being run essentially by uh

absolute psychopaths that hate all of us

and exploit all of us so i i think

that's why identity is important and i

am a white person like that that just is

what it is i'm not a german i'm not an

irishman i am white and how can we

decolonize whiteness from being tied to

the systems of oppression the american

empire has created and you know what the

modern american left says is like well

then just stop having an ethnic identity

and you know this is my family it's part

of my heritage and you know also i think

issues of faith are very important

and that is really what motivates me you

know the concept of faith family and

community and then building with

solidarity with other ethnic communities

and we've seen that it works in the

united states it just hasn't really been

tried in the past 50 or 60 years due to

government repression

well

the thing is is that what is

what is called white in the united

states is

not specific enough to encompass any

kind of real ethnos for example

as far as people's unique heritage and

tradition is concerned they're going to

do that through their family so here was

my grandpa and his father and his father

they came from a ship and this date in

this state and there's nothing wrong

with celebrating this unique heritage

right this is something based in family

and maybe it's even based in geography

in certain cases right there there's

probably parts of america where there's

a village or a town of people

primarily who came from finland or

something right so i don't see anything

wrong with this

but

the white identity does not compass as

specific and unique ethnos as far as i

can see like and one of the evidence i

have for this is that

it's com always changing right for

example the people who came fresh off

the boat in ellis island um

italians

uh

you know

irish all these other kinds of non-wasp

people they were not considered white

right but then

through a process spanning decades and

decades of these people becoming more

embedded within the country

institutionalized and so on and so on

and naturalized so to speak they

suddenly have become

white right

so to me the only thing that unites

the so-called white identity within

united states is a fundamental

embeddedness within

uh united states as a state so it is a

fundamentally american identity it's

really just the american flag that's

going to unite

these various different people now the

reason why

black people will not be encompassed by

that

specifically um can be actually traced

historically and this is kind of my

materialist analysis

to the aftermath of slavery in which

they were not given an economic base

that attaches them to some kind of

loyalty to the state with the 40 acres

in the mule other peoples for example

during the um the westward expansion

where they could just claim land with

the homestead act and then later after

the in the aftermath of world war ii

with the housing reform after the new

deal there was an uh

there was a loyalty that was secured to

the state among

the ellis island immigrants as well

right so

land is the central reason basically why

uh the black identity has not been

integrated into the general american

also it's also because black is an

umbrella term

um to refer to various different um

descendants of slaves from africa right

so there's also the aspect of

pan-africanism that comes from marcus

garvey and so on and that kind of

specific lineage

so

black is not so much its own ethnic

identity as much as it is a kind of

repository of people who have

a connection to africa and want to

embrace that specific connection

and the reason they have to make that

distinct is because that is not

something that has been made inherent in

the american identity which is mostly

thus far right

um european in origin right

also in the case of latinos

the distinction but even the distinction

from white people becomes kind of very

much

hard to

draw a line there's different kind of

syncretic communities

of people mixed between white and latino

and so on when you get closer to the

border

of mexico

so to me i agree that we need to have a

national question and that american

identity obviously by itself does not

suffice

but where i find it difficult to

understand is how

white people

the term white people can constitute a

nation now when we say for example you

are white you matthew you are white all

that basically means is you are not

uh black latino or

someone who falls outside of this

category right but what are you

positively in the positive sense of the

word you would have to consult your

specific family background your

where you were born where you grew up

things kind of like this will give an

error of determinate uh

positive form well i i mean i i think

one of the issues here is you know i

don't think black identity is merely the

lack of having been integrated into

american cosmopolitanism i agree it it

it's its own identity and the thing is

that white americans we have the same

general past we have the same general

future if you're looking at politics and

economics we get the same cultural

references i mean we've developed a

unique culture and it's not anyone

else's place to erase my identity or

have to define like is whiteness good

enough just like it's definitely not my

place to tell a black person that well

is blackness even even real identity is

is a personal thing within a community

and you know the thing is everyone knows

what a what a white person is and i

agree like i've i've been to europe

plenty of times and

whiteness exists as its own unique

identity it's not a catch-all term for

every european from the caucuses all the

way to argentina it existed and

developed in its own unique context

especially here in the united states um

and the thing is like i mean have you

ever read a white trash by nancy

eisenberg

no i haven't i i heavily suggest it uh

because i mean the thing is eisenberg

traces from the first days of

colonization up towards the modern

period how white folks have been

exploited by the capitalist system but

also throughout that how we've developed

our own forms of identity and community

so you know i i think instead of arguing

because you know you can see this in you

know certain white nationalist circles

where the argument of like well who is

white what is white enough you see this

from liberal circles about is whiteness

even an effective identity i think it

comes down to the the individual and the

communities that say this is who we are

this is what our heritage is and if we

can affirm that if people don't want to

have the identity

then that's okay like if a black person

has more connection with for instance a

religious faith or something they have

and that's how they choose to identify

well that's their right all i'm saying

is that for those of us who do hold this

ethnic identity well that's a positive

thing and everyone should have a

positive identity of whatever their

their choice is based on their history

and we can take that from there to work

on the problems that are facing all of

us

but the problem for me is that white

encompasses people with radically

different um histories right

and well i mean in in europe i mean like

my my irish ancestral

german ancestors yeah so what you

basically mean is white is basically in

the united states everyone of european

descent is what you would say well i

would say you know i'm also an orthodox

christian um so i've been in plenty of

churches where people who are greek

people who are serbian and stuff like

that and they've held on to

language culture customs and the

identity of their homeland so i would

say that that person is a greek person

or that is a serb or that is a romanian

that it's through an ethnogenesis that

whiteness was developed as an identity

it's not just a catch-all that anyone

who happens to have the same amount of

melanin as me is part of the group

it's an identity that was formed over

time that like my german ancestors were

told that you had to learn to speak

english you know that during world war

one a lutheran priest was beaten nearly

to death because he was giving last

rights to a german woman in a hospital

um so a lot of who we are in terms of

our ancestral identities were stripped

through the americanization um of of you

know our ancestors but we have formed a

unique identity you know you can't go

into the hills and hollers of west

virginia and not have a sense of of

culture and place and a people and i

think that's a positive thing you know

no at no point during the labor movement

struggles you know with united mine

workers and stuff like that was there a

question about

is whiteness an identity or does it

exist it was simply said whiteness does

exist blackness does exist and you both

are workers and we need to fight the

bosses together and that's that's my

position i'm coming from

i agree that if you went to west

virginia you would you would find all

this but the issue is that

too much is encompassed by white so for

example

you have to look at it also from the

urban and rural divide it seems to me

that

one becomes more white the more urban

they are right it but it depends on how

one is defining whiteness in the first

place the way in which white

is mostly defined

uh

in my understanding and i could be wrong

is reflexivity a sense of like acute

reflexivity basically that um

one defines the ground of their being

based on some kind of um

institution or some kind of like

consciously held premise like one uh

reflexive just in the sense that like

one adopts this sense of um

you know it's typical people will say

purity but just kind of pure form right

and you can think of this in terms of

political correctness and politically

correct culture for example

um one is in when they're using the

right language and they're using the

right mannerisms and you're proving that

you have a kind of uh

reflexivity right well one is out when

one's just being their authentic normal

and plain self then one is completely

excommunicated right so

interestingly with political correctness

having an anti-racist veneer

it follows the pattern of whiteness as

described for example by the theorists

i'm familiar with

but

this ethnogenesis i think does apply to

specific peoples like in appalachia for

example that is a good example of

something like that

and then in the south you have even a

different even in in texas and louisiana

and

with the i forget what they're called

cajuns or something like that yeah i

can't like the cajuns cajuns yeah

um

and then in in michigan even where i

live you also have this kind of

different communities but

i i still struggle to see how there's

this is one white nation or one white

ethnos right because to me an ethnos

uh cannot just be defined by what it is

not it has to have a particular

substantive determinant reality so what

are some features you would identify

of this

supposed white ethnos that applies to

all of these different peoples

sure well i mean as an example i've you

know spent a lot of my life my adult

life in appalachia but i've also lived

in pittsburgh um i've also lived in

michigan it's a great state beautiful

state uh i lived in montana for a while

and you know for me

there was no question when i was in

pittsburgh and all the guys i pretty

much knew were teamsters or iron workers

or you know good working-class folks

with families

we went to church together we shared a

heritage and were they from

different parts of europe originally

than myself at least some of them were

you know a lot of eastern european

immigrants and stuff like that but we

shared a cultural bond and an

understanding from one another that you

know it's very similar as you can see in

the black american experience

black folks in michigan and black folks

in georgia do have the same sort of

basis of having developed a culture and

then of course especially due to

economic reasons having to spread out

like when i was in montana they uh the

local county had a southern uh barbecue

they would hold every single summer

where you know folks after the war they

didn't have farms to go back to so a lot

of them started to go out west and they

kept part of their state heritage and

stuff like that and their southernness

but it's also an expression of whiteness

where people that had no ancestors from

the south came and participated in and

it was seen as a cultural event that

everyone could participate in and it's

the same way i think with black people

in the united states it's the same as we

see the growing of the hispanic identity

which is going to be separate than you

know some mere latin american national

identity that they're forming in the

united states their own unique um

identity through ethnogenesis so i don't

define whiteness by we're not black or

we're not latino or we're not american

indian

i do it by the fact that we have you

know shared culture shared customs

shared language and is one of the

reasons we have shared culture because

the forced americanization on our

ancestors absolutely but it would be

silly for me to walk around in later

housing or you know to put on an irish

accent just because you know my great

great granddad had one instead

understand that my people are part of my

identity and um you know we we

understand one another so i mean i've

been all over the country and there's

lots and lots of white folks um even if

they're from different european nations

originally we've developed our own

culture and i think that could be said

for pretty much every ethnic group in

the you know imperial united states

so i i understand when you say when you

gave me the example of the steel workers

and so on and how you have similar

values and similar sentiments and so on

probably even similar activities like

outdoors type activity you know fishing

and

like pickup trucks and stuff this is

what i see in michigan with with rural

people so i get that but

my only issue is that uh i don't see

whiteness as the essence of this

specific also i don't necessarily know

if it can be

a unique ethnos if it is

then it's based on the specific

relationship these people i mean you

named it yourself steel workers have had

with the american state as an

institution

for reasons i mentioned before the

specific relation between the working

class

and the state through unions and so on

and so on that was arrived at after

world war ii right

and so here specifically um you find

among these same groups of people

non-white people now are they a minority

of course there's always an exception or

a minority but

they're still there it's possible for

people who are not of european descent

to be part of this right now not as a

community right not as a majority but

it's still possible to become

nativized as part of this specific

cultural uh

cultural uh understanding right who goes

fishing and does all this kind of kind

of things

so

there is a reason specific reason why um

their majority are white people and

white people of european descent

and

like i said before that issue goes back

to the aftermath of slavery right now in

the case of latinos you're either going

to have a case where there's actually a

actually deep similarity between the

latino working class that has been here

for like decades and decades and decades

and this the so-called white one they're

actually very similar right but other

than that the issue is just immigration

that they came here sooner right so

that's really what's going to make them

outside of this

then in the case of slavery you did you

again had this uh

inability for the state

to

cement the loyalty

of the black population through land now

i'm not saying the black identity is

only defined by this exclusion

so that should be

made very clear i don't mean to say that

it's like

only a form of kind of

this is something a lot of woke people

right people say like it's all based

only on oppression and all of the

spirituals and songs and culture and so

on it's all just because of oppression

that's not true there is a specific

tradition and specific heritage

uh there

but again

um

this separation specifically

uh i would i would attribute to that

fact now were it not for that separation

we would probably see maybe a i mean

this is a hypothetical alternative

universe a completely different ethnos

right it wouldn't just be that

black people would be just like white

people there would probably be a

completely new ethnogenesis as you put

it

corresponding to the universal american

identity

um

or maybe there would be a different

outcome but for what we can say as far

as the current situation is concerned uh

it's specifically for that reason right

specifically because of

and this is why my materialist analysis

because of their relation to the

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their economic relation to the state as

an institution

well i mean you know the thing is just

as an example that you know eskimos

didn't know that they were eskimos as a

separate identity before you know a

bunch of europeans paddled up right and

said that you know hey

by the way you guys are this but that

doesn't mean that they didn't have an

identity it doesn't have to be and it

shouldn't be defined by other groups i

mean you know just talk to a european

like there's a time i was hanging out in

a in a pub with uh some some european

comrades and uh every time i talked uh i

would see the people across from me kind

of go like that a little bit and and i

stopped i went like

am am i loud like i apologize you know

everyone was quieter around me and i'm a

pretty loud chatty guy in general but uh

they were like yes white americans you

guys are

you know and you a european can tell

even if you look german or look irish or

stuff like that that you are you know

have a similar heritage but you you're

part of a separate identity and you know

the thing is that as a white person in

the united states that we shouldn't have

to have a duty to convince any other

group that our identity is valid it's

real to myself and members of my

community and you know in the american

political system like you see zionists

for instance saying that well the

palestinian identity isn't legitimate

actually they're just arabs and here's

all these reasons to justify the

apartheid state of an occupation in

palestine but you know

zionists shouldn't have the right to

invalidate a palestinian national

identity just like any other community

shouldn't have the ability to invalidate

my own community's identity and it's not

a sticking point of division it's simply

part of who we are and now it's a where

can we go from here to work together for

common goals where we can all be proud

of who we are and have a tie to our

roots and our families and our heritage

um so i mean that's

the sort of thing that you know it's

it's great to have these discussions and

and i really enjoy them but it's not

anyone outside of the community you know

their their place to define what is a

valid identity and what isn't because

like it would be you know and even the

idea that like whiteness is synonymous

with hunting and pickup trucks and uh

bad country music

i i don't think that that's accurate uh

but you you go into rural areas and you

know you have a culture but you can see

whether it's you know what used to be in

south boston before it was gentrified

that was a unique identity that was in a

purely urban context i i don't think

whiteness

is just the the country perspective it

goes beyond that i mean you know like we

were talking about when i lived in

pittsburgh uh that's an urban

environment and i didn't stick out as

you know some sort of hillbilly from the

sticks i was just part of the community

and that's who we are and then we can

work from that to work to achieve

political goals

so the reason for that just that that

last thing is um after modernity the

dynamic between rural and urban urban

was no longer defined

in the traditional sense between

agrarian and um

you know uh

cities right there was a kind of uh

suburbanization

how should i put it

um yeah i guess suburbanization within

the urban context that created a new

morality right so the working class

within cities uh who work in factories

and so on they themselves even if

they're living in rural uh sorry in

pittsburgh they would be considered

rural in the american cultural uh

imagination right

but regardless um

the threshold of the urban rural

distinction is something historical it

changes over time but my issue is that

when we try to have a scientific

analysis of the ethnogenesis

in any country moral right we see that

the relationship to the state as an

institution

is is definitive it's a defining part of

how an ethnos comes to be because an

ethnos is a

is a way of collective being it's a form

of collective being and this state is

the universal institution that

interpolates an individual as more than

just

themselves but it doesn't only do this

in some abstract or ideological sense it

does it in a material sense in the form

of the way the state relates to

individuals economically right the state

reproduces its material existence

through the people through the people

that serve as its

popular foundation right

um and that is specifically in terms of

land or abstract economic space of some

kind right so we can see in the united

states that

the the white identity that you're

talking about

why is it that if it is something

separate from america or at least not

reducible to uh the ethnos of american

state why is its whole history and whole

identity and so on why can this all not

why is it that we can trace this to

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the specific relationship between the

individual and the american state in

general

just individual taken as like uh

the ideal citizen of the american state

like we can trace for example how this

ethnos came to be and it was through the

american state like

like it is precisely the reason why

irish and

italians and polish and all these kinds

of people became white it wasn't because

they eventually came to an understanding

with the wasps

it was because of the specific uh

new relationship between

the universal american state and the

individual that happened after fdr and

world war ii right so this is a question

we have to answer

how is it that

the category of white can

expand well the way i see it

i don't see another alternative

explanation is precisely because of this

material analysis of the american state

and that's finally why um

you say that people who are outside of

the community cannot like say does it

exist or does it not exist but within

that specific community of people you're

talking about i could be wrong but

the majority of them while acknowledging

that they're white in the sense that yes

we're white we're not black whatever

when they define themselves positively

and affirmatively they really just end

with american some may tack on the you

know the irish or the polish

heritage or the italian one but at the

end of the day it is the american

identity that they are the most loyal to

in my experience i mean i don't see uh i

don't see the majority of white people

in this country

viewing the white identity as a

political cygnus a political identity or

an even an ethnological identity around

which to

identify or rally themselves it's just

they just say i'm an american i'm proud

to be an american

and that's what i am right and they even

go so far as to say when they express

their rejection of um

you know black lives matter or whatever

they'll say why are they dividing us by

race we're all americans right so this

this is something that has to be kept in

mind it's it's the american identity

that the community you're talking about

like itself the way i can say i could be

wrong

chooses as it's the banner under which

to define itself not whiteness

well i mean the thing is i mean first of

all states don't define ethnicity i

don't think that's ever been the case

human beings are fundamentally tribal

that's part of the human experience i

mean that's why even when they do

studies on young children of all

backgrounds for instance they uh can be

triggered with a bigger response when a

hand is put you know on in front of them

and it's pricked with a pin the closer

it looks to them that's not a white

person thing that's a natural thing that

through evolution human beings became

tribal creatures so that can either be

used to be a negative and promote

chauvinism or hatred or stuff like that

or we can just simply accept that that

is a scientific reality of the human

experience and work with it i mean

ethnicities have existed long before the

modern concept of states right or even

the modern concept of nations

tribalism has always been part of the

evolutionary experience of every single

person on the planet and you know if the

state the american state specifically

causes ethnicity of this american

identity then why hasn't it managed to

fuse together black folks white folks

indigenous folks into one people when

they've had centuries to do so so i mean

i would say the main relationship

between the people in the united states

uh whether they're white folks black

folks indigenous folks whatever

it's based upon our

exploitation essentially it's not about

creating an affirmative identity i mean

america was founded by a bunch of

capitalists that created these colonies

and they took the the poor and

impoverished of europe brought them over

here and they referred to them and some

of the documents amongst the virginia

company referred to working class people

as fertilizer that we were to be uh

brought here to to work and to die and

then make profits for people many of

whom never even came to the colonies and

i would argue that the american

revolution from the beginning

wasn't based on any liberating

principles and you know you can see that

just by looking at the whiskey rebellion

you know which was led by continental

war veterans that said hey this whole

thing was about

no representation um you know and we're

not going to be be taxed uh if we don't

have a voice so what does george

washington do uh he marches 13 000

troops in to western pennsylvania to

murder farmers many of whom are

continental war veterans who were simply

saying hey these are the supposed

principles of our new republic and i

think going forward over the past 200

plus years that's been the main

relationship between

every single group of people especially

you know including white folks that the

state hasn't existed to create an

identity it simply existed to bully us

into being exploited and it's capitalism

in a turbocharged fashion because at the

very least in european countries these

national identities had time to develop

from tribal identities into feudal

fiefdoms into the modern concept of a

nation-state and so on but the united

states it was founded to make money by

rich people to use and abuse us and in

that context blackness developed in that

context whiteness developed separate

from the state and i think you would

find the people that are most tied to

their ethnic identities are those uh who

are the most exploited and they're the

ones who have found a sense of community

and identity amongst people like

themselves

well i don't mean to say that the state

creates ethnicities in a voluntary sense

like oh we just want to be a universal

state and

because it's a dialectic the issue is

what does the state working with to

begin with it's already it's working

with already made ethnos it had no

say in determining or forming so i agree

the state doesn't create ethnos but the

state is a fundamental part of the

dialect dialectic of ethnogenesis

for example if there's such a thing as

the french ethnicity this is only an

ethnicity that was united by the common

reality of all who would then become

part of the category of french people

unified by the french revolution and it

was specifically based on their loyalty

to the french republic the republic

right

this is the making of france as a modern

universal

state before then you did have an

identifiable ambiguous kind of french

people but

um

it was far more localized and far more

ambiguous in an ethnological sense

well i mean what what i would just say

to that is the french identity existed

before the creation of the republic i

mean if you just look at germans as an

example if you were particularly

long-lived and alive today in 2021 uh

you could have been born in a monarchy

and been a monarchist and then you could

have been a social democrat and then a

national socialist and then either a

capitalist you know if you're in west

germany or a marxist leninist if you're

in east germany and now you might be

like a green party member and we've seen

the changing of states

um you know in just one lifetime with

five radically different conceptions of

the state and political ideologies

associated with it but no one would

really question that they're still

germans right i mean even the german

communist party and you know their their

famous hymn uh you know um red wedding

they say uh germany for the germans and

you know that

betrays the idea that the german

identity is not just built upon what

state you're living in or what ideology

is then being brought and in many cases

forced on the people it's an organic

part of the human experience so here in

the united states i mean you could have

lived as a colonist being ruled in a

company town and then you're part of the

republic and then you're once again

living in a company town right and then

we've got the issues of segregation

stuff like that and america was defined

by a majority

ethnic identity until the 1965

immigration act and now america is as an

identity as like whatever you want it to

be our diversity is our identity which

is the absence of an identity as the new

american identity so i mean i i would

just disagree that the american

experience our relationship as americans

really had anything to do with the state

you know places like appalachia as we've

talked about before

were so rural in some places like you've

got the blue people of kentucky where

they had a uh genetic quirk where uh

their their skin because there was a

small amount of folks in the hills they

um had actual blue skin which is a

fascinating thing if anyone wants to

look at the blue people of kentucky but

um they weren't getting their sense of

self from washington dc or new york or

you know philadelphia it was from their

local community and they collectively

identified as white

yeah i mean yes the french people and

the german people preceded the nation

state corresponding to those

but

before the french

republic before the french republic

uh

this specific universal ethnos that cuts

across all religious differences and all

local differences did not exist right so

the french people as a nation

i'm not saying they were created

voluntarily by the state but it is the

state that epitomized their

genesis as a nation right that makes

sense because it's a dialectic point

it's a very subtle dialectic point that

has to be understood the raw material

that creates the broader unity is not

created by the form of that unity i

agree

but

it's still inexorably a part of it

um so i'm not saying germany was only

the german state or germany as a

political entity

but

statehood is an inexorable part of

ethnogenesis and specifically

religion is also an an extra part

of uh ethnogenesis historically right

it's just that these things operate

under a time span

that's much much longer like centuries

and centuries

than can be uh accounted for

by individual ideologies and individual

practices right it's just something that

takes much much longer

so when i and specifically the reason

for that is um

again

in the american context

uh the only thing that integrated poles

italians

um

what else irish and so on and so on

as part of this white as being white in

the first place i mean do you think that

there was something else besides the

change in the nature of the american

state and its relationship to the people

i mean like forget about the the cause

right because

that's also a dialectic relationship

it's like you can't just say the state

caused it because the reasons for the

state

changing in the way it did also was

because of the nature of the people but

so it's a dialectic relationship but how

can you really understand how that

happened outside of that that process

well because it's lived i mean the thing

is is my identity comes from my papaw it

comes from you know the ties where i can

visit where my ancestors have been

buried for hundreds of years when i can

go to north carolina and see the

battlefields that my ancestors fought on

and some of them gave life for you know

it's it's not just an abstraction my

identity is a real thing that real

people have lived struggled and died for

and you know we talk about the irish i'm

half irish you know on on me mother's

side it's it's pure irish catholic uh

until you go back to the old country and

then it stays pure irish catholic you

know like

uh i identity is a real lived thing that

all human beings are grounded in and

you know the thing is that every

identity we can work to try and pick

apart right um and and i one don't think

that's helpful i i don't think it's

accurate i respect the positions you're

bringing forward

but for me you know accepting who i am

and what i'm rooted in is you know part

of then my struggle for socialism for my

family you know i'm a father i've got

two young boys and i care about their

future and their heritage is part of it

but also the fact we're living in a

society where the capitalist state wants

to exploit them and use them for cannon

fodder and imperialist wars and things

like that

you know what's been told to me by large

elements of the american left is my

white affirming identity is not allowed

in the conversation of socialism

so i mean you know i'm i'm coming

forward to simply say i am white there's

plenty of white folks who identify as

white plenty of people that maybe don't

have a strong ethnic consciousness and

that's their own choice but you know the

real question is are those of us who

have an affirmative white identity just

like you know the panthers back in the

day had an affirmative black identity

can we be part of the conversation about

developing socialism for everyone

because you know the synthetic left says

no and and this is a clear point that

they've made and also if you disagree on

any of their multitude of social issues

i'm not saying that's your position but

i mean

would would you agree that you know

having an affirmative white identity and

we can we can discuss whiteness and the

history and the ethnogenesis for a long

time but to say here in 2021 that hi i'm

i'm a white person i'm raising my kids

to be to be white and to have that

heritage and identity can we be part of

the conversation of socialism

well look obviously white people can i

mean it's a no-brainer white people are

the majority of america so any american

socialism of course white people will be

a part of it but my gripe with this

issue of white identity and white people

as an ethnos specifically

isn't so much because i think it's i

want to have a sober materialist view of

this so i'm not speaking from an

emotional or even so much ideological

perspective i'm just skeptical at the

idea that this is actually objectively a

real ethnos

that could succeed in uh unifying

unifying the majority of of even those

who would consider who would be

considered white in this country like i

don't think

i don't see a context for

the white identity beyond

expressing some kind of grievance

against non-white people like are there

manifestations of

a affirmative white identity beyond for

example like we want to be separate from

all these other kinds of people we're

sick of all these other kinds of people

and so on and so on so to me it's like

uh

like again it goes back to the question

of course we all have a sense of

identity and heritage it goes back to

our father and our grandfather but

were it not for the change for example

the fundamental change

in the uh

american state that happened the causes

of which we could talk about

irish people and polish people would not

be considered

um white in this country i mean they

would have been continued to be excluded

in the same way they were before and

wasps would be considered white

americans and these immigrants who came

from ellis island having no way to

become economically naturalized through

the integration of the government

corporates and unions and so on and so

on

they would have been excluded from this

kind of american project and would have

been

uh

confined to some kind of subaltern

uh existence so

we just have to evaluate objectively how

the people you're describing came to be

and if we do that i don't see how a

white identity is what's essential to me

what's essential is a specific

relationship

to the state now does that mean the

state caused this in the first place no

it's just me and that that's something

that has to be investigated more broadly

but we do have to accept

that

these are people by and large

who themselves choose to identify as

americans first and foremost

before anything right they are americans

now

it's only a small minority of white

people who will then

get into the kind of white pride stuff

like it's one thing to say i'm proud to

be an american

and there may even be an implicit

understanding among some of these people

that this is referring to people who are

like me in other words

white people

but

like

white pride is not something you find

that's that commonplace among

these same white people you're talking

about

i mean i i would politely disagree

you know in terms of

having an affirmative identity it's

increasing amongst the white working

class this is part of our normal lived

experience

and you know i mean one of the things

and i i really appreciate uh you know

the hypotheticals and the historical

discussion and i'll jump back to that in

a second but i mean what i want to know

fundamentally coming forward is saying

like hi i'm a socialist but i also have

an affirmative white identity and that

is a

core part of who i am are people who

have an affirmative white identity

allowed to be part of the socialist

movement or are only deracinated white

folks that don't have an ethnic identity

a part of it can you have

an affirmative white identity

and participate in the socialist

movement it's i mean it's a that that's

a yes or no sort of answer in my opinion

well i i don't know what what an

affirmative well there's two things

right

there's to me there's no clear socialist

movement that even exists in the united

states right the one that i don't know

if you're referring to like a twitter

discourse or something like that

i don't consider that a socialist

movement so i don't think if you're

referring to a potential one

i have to under i have to ask what the

practical implications are what does the

meat and potatoes of that mean because

for example if there's no objective

reality to a white ethnos right i'm not

obviously white people exist they're

very clearly

separately identif identifiable from

other people but if is white an

essential ethnos like a specific

substantive positive ethnic identity or

is it just an identity based on negation

pure negation well i mean

if if it's not then

someone who says hi i'm

someone who identifies as white in a

positive sense am i welcome i mean to me

that would be no different than someone

who says hi i'm a furry i identify as uh

my spirit animal is uh

you know

a wolf or something like what would be

the practical implications of that right

at the level of a socialist movement so

we have to get to first and foremost

because we

of course a scientific i'm a marxist

leninist right so whatever country i

live in i'm going to try and arrive at a

scientific

view of the national question within the

country it's not based on individual

preferences or individual identities

it's based on understanding because as

stalin pointed out nations are a

material thing they may not be as

discreet

as we'd like them to be for purposes of

simplification but there's a material

reality to nations there's also material

reality to ethnos as

even soviet and chinese ethnographers

would point out right

and

re knowing what kind of ethnos

predominates in united states is a very

important question and what kind of

nations exist within the united states

or even what nationhood is in the

american context is a very important

question for communists but i'm just not

convinced for practical purposes right

not purposes of

excluding or including arbitrary

personal identities but for practical

purposes of working in this country i'm

not convinced there is a white

ethnos or a white nation

well i mean

deferees have to scientifically prove

that their identities uh don't exist in

opposition to non-furs i mean honestly

you're far more likely to find a place

in the communist party usa or especially

the dsa um if you're

a furry rather than a white person that

has a tie to your history but i mean the

thing with this going back to the 1960s

and i i really do believe that the

rainbow coalition was the strongest

example of what can be achieved through

solidarity and you know if you look at

the propaganda of the young patriots

along with the panthers they didn't have

a question about whiteness the young

patriots were white they wore

confederate battle flags as their symbol

there was no question that that

whiteness existed i mean even mao in the

right little red book uh he specifically

talks about how you know white people

the ones that did oppression were the

plantation owners and the you know the

capitalist class and judgment should not

be levied against the white proletariat

instead we should look for solidarity so

even

mao understood that white people exist

as their own separate group and we have

to divide the proletariat from the

capitalist class the black panthers as

an example of a truly revolutionary

socialist and internationalist movement

understood that white people existed and

they were willing to actively ally with

people that you know during the 1960s

having a confederate battle flag as the

battle over you know desegregation stuff

was happening that's sort of

controversial but they were able to say

look this is a part of your heritage and

your sense of self as white folks and

we're going to work together and have

our symbols so i mean i would just say

looking from a marxist leninist

perspective when do we see the example

of even arguing do does whiteness exist

until we get to this modern like you

know

post-2016 sort of context or dudes that

read settlers historically if mao thinks

white people exist if the panthers think

white people exist and white people

think white people exist as a separate

unique identity then i i feel like that

pretty much settles the issue and even

if you don't accept that as legitimate

identity i don't have to persuade you to

say that that's a part of who i am in my

community and if we spend all of our

time debating over whether whiteness is

a valid ethnography

i i really think that gets in the way

just like debating over culture war

issues of the issues of socialism that

are facing us you know we and i think

this has been a great conversation and i

really appreciate how thoughtful you've

been um and i've appreciated you letting

me respond but the thing is we haven't

talked about the means of production to

the working class and it's been an hour

because we're questioning whether my

ethnic identity is legitimate and i

think that there's bigger fish to fry

you know because not everyone has to

agree that everyone's identity is

a-okay we can we can find common ground

then to work on

well i i don't deny white people exist

they obviously do exist and

obviously communists are not in the

united states are not going to be

against people for being white i mean

white people are the majority of this

country so it's not a strategy that

would work

even from a cynical perspective

but

my only point is is it an identity

around is it an identity around which

um a reflexive right identity can be

formed

what are the political and so on and so

on implications

um i don't

personally this i'm speaking in terms of

my personal whatever preference i really

personally don't care if an individual i

you know identifies as white and views

there to be a specific white history and

i mean i i don't care that's just an

individual but for an organization what

does that mean for a party what does

that specifically mean does it mean for

example um

like why i brought up the case of

furries

is

not because i think that like uh it's

precisely because in the case of furries

what are the practical implications you

can't prove furries

like are

an ethnos or a nation specifically right

so what what does that become beyond

some kind of personal idiosyncrasy and

so that's that's basically my question

like how can this be something beyond a

personal idiosyncrasy i doubt

that the majority of white people

would

decide to identify as white in a

political or or cultural or even um

national or ethnographic sense rather

than calling themselves american

american to the core right red-blooded

americans i mean this is what they have

chosen to identify themselves as

now

i think the american project

uh

is a project of civilization building so

to me

i wanted to be more inclusive of other

peoples specifically the indians or

indigenous people

and politically correct term

the uh

latino people and so on and so on

but

as it stands this is what

has ident this is what has uh

as far as i can see

made white people white not a reflexive

white identity but something more

fundamental

well i mean what i would say the idea

that whiteness only exists in opposition

to others i mean places like appalachia

they are i mean you've got entire

counties and in parts of the region that

have always been 100 white i mean since

you know the regions were settled by you

know folks like us

but they have affirmative regional

identities cultural identities and

racial identities i mean the pearl

clutching that's happened since the 2016

election about specifically these

regions or places in the so-called rust

belt that uh it shocked everyone that

the idea of you know racial appeals and

stuff like that spoke to people that for

generations had been you know blue dog

democrats and part of the solid blue

wall but they had an ethnic identity and

that exists outside of you know the

other because in a lot of these places

there is no other it just is these

communities have developed everything

from appalachian granny magic which

essentially is a folk medicine to music

i mean one of my good buddies in the

traditionalist worker party he makes uh

you know musical instruments um right

there that the way his daddy did his

granddaddy did and so on and the music

they play is part of that culture even

things that might seem a little strange

you go into appalachian sometimes folks

handle snakes at a baptist church you

know or a pentecostal church

it's unique elements of culture that

developed locally that isn't in

opposition to the other but i mean the

the thing is

at the end of the day what this means is

we reject the critical race theory

that's being put forward by the modern

left that fundamentally argues that

white people are somehow a illegitimate

be guilty of the sins of capitalism

that's been transplanted onto the white

working class

and fundamentally bad and you know the

thing is in this conversation talking

about socialism going forward i'm not

asking for whites to have a special role

i'm actually asking for the opposite of

that to be able to stand as equals with

other ethnic communities that already

have their own affirmative identities i

don't want more or less legitimate i

just want everyone to have the ability

to have an affirmative legitimate

identity where we can respect one

another

i'm gonna let haz respond to that and

then we're gonna get into the q a um so

if you wanted to yeah well to be clear i

don't i'm i don't think white people are

devoid of culture i just don't think and

this is my view that whiteness is the

essence of those specific local cultures

because they differ

regionally and they differ based on the

people right appalachians are not the

same

as um

casuals right in terms of those

traditions in terms of that specific

culture and finally as to the final

point i think this should simplify it i

guess

um i don't think it does a communist

movement good

to have

white people feeling guilty all the time

because communists are supposed to be

warriors they're supposed to be fighters

and they're supposed to be winners and

we were going up against the class enemy

we're going up against enemies so to

have a bunch of people who are weak and

apologetic all the time

i don't think that helps anyone

just speaking personally um

i think it's much more productive if

people from white backgrounds

uh

you know

we all maintain a position of mutual

respect

not overstepping our bounds as it

regards interference into other people

and other people's business not being

disrespectful

but just maintaining um you know

a sense of dignity and a sense of uh

you know

i definitely agree that there's there's

something really fake if this is what

you're referring to i guess about the

way in which white liberals and white

leftists are always you know acting like

they're so apologetic and so repent it's

kind of a feature of yes a religious

leftover and feature but at the same

time i don't really i think that

uh like a kind of white pride or white

nationalism is just the opposite side of

the coin of that very same pathology

which is fundamentally unable to just

get over

whiteness i think

like whiteness is just something that uh

as an identity

like uh

shouldn't really

be on i don't i don't see it as

something that has to be on the back of

people's minds all the time

i you know the way i see it is that the

most prominent communist fighters in the

history of united states who are white

they were focusing on on bigger things

they were focusing on america and the

american people i mean maybe if they

came from irish backgrounds or polish by

they were focusing on that specific

community but

i mean

their their minds were not on that right

and to me i think it's an attempt

to kind of just be the opposite of what

the white leftist and the white liberals

are which is this kind of self-hating

and permanently guilty kind of posturing

but i think it's just the other side of

the same coin that might actually very

well lead to the same

same outcome right we should focus first

and foremost

on first of all uh the struggle of the

american working class

um america and then we should also be

attentive to the national questions that

need to be addressed right lenin was a

russian right because there was a

russian civilization

um but he was also attentive to the

national question in the russian empire

concerning the other the national

minorities and and that whole thing

right so i think we we have to have

something similar here in america we we

have americans most americans are white

not all of them most people who identify

primarily as americans above all are

white again not all

but

we can have that american

uh civilization or that american

identity but we need to be attentive to

the then this other pressing national

question in this country as well so

that's my position on that overall sure

well just to respond real quick i know

we need to get to the questions i mean

the thing is i can walk and chew gum at

the same time so i can be white and have

that as part of my identity and build

socialism simultaneously and you know

the idea of national liberation

struggles has been common um especially

amongst oppressed groups in the united

states and you know just to the point

that you know the idea of whiteness

wasn't kind of a foundation of identity

in some of the regions we've been

discussing there's a reason the bosses

brought in workers of color

into areas like appalachia or henry ford

brought black workers that were

dispossessed

and pushed out due to the bull weevil

epidemic and you know the great

depression into places like detroit

right because at the end of the day he

knew that ethnic strife and differences

and stuff like that would make

organizing harder of the working class

now i don't think these lines uh should

be um you know able to stop us from

working together you know and but the

idea you know fred hampton specifically

said that he believed in black power he

believed in white power he believed in

yellow power he believed in red power

all power to the people and that's part

of this concept of building socialism

building solidarity building

internationalism and building a better

future for all of us here in what's

known as the united states with identity

at the bedrock of that so that that's

merely my position and if race didn't

play into an element of identity in the

regions we've been discussing the bosses

wouldn't have used forced diversity um

to try and stop unionization they would

have just thought oh these are just this

isn't going to be a big deal but that's

a reason why here in 2021 amazon

specifically targets to

you know curtail their workforce to be

as diverse as possible it's not because

they love diversity but because they've

done studies and shows that

ethnic tensions and things like that

reduce unionization efforts so you know

the thing they were doing a hundred

years ago in mingo and uh in welch west

virginia jeff bezos is doing today and

that's why accepting identity is

important it's affirmative and to

pretend it just doesn't exist like

only white americans are being asked for

this erasure that we got to put all of

our identity to the side and we got to

just build socialism for everyone no

other ethnic group has asked for that

and i don't think we should ask them for

that instead we should all have an

affirmative identity and build socialism

together but anyway that was my final

thought on that all right so i'm going

to start braiding um some of the

questions and super chats um

all right so from chris thank you for

the super chat he said matthew your

concept of white is determined

by the negation of what white liberals

want you to be why are you falling into

this trap

well i don't believe that my concept of

self and my family's concept of self is

based on anything that white liberals

won we've existed as a people for

hundreds of years and outside of any

white liberals promoting things like

white gilts and you know the maya culpa

maya culpa maya culpa um that they love

to do for msnbc and cnn and stuff like

that um that has nothing to do with my

lived experience and the experience of

my children and my extended family so i

i don't believe that my identity is

based on the negation of any other

identity um or any other group and i

don't believe it's being defined to me

because if i was going to go along with

what white liberals wanted then i would

just go ahead and be a cartoon super

villain like i would embrace

neocolonialism i would embrace white

supremacy because that's what white

liberals fundamentally think in a

classist just horrific way towards the

average white proletarian and so i

reject those things i reject the

framework they've established and

instead support solidarity

but don't you kind of think that like

even the kind of terms you're using

aren't those a little bit

similar to how white liberals speak like

lived experience in my id isn't this

kind of a feature of

the kind of new kind of liberal

individualism in our society or

no i mean i don't think so because

again you know going back

hundreds of years it's how we identified

i mean the the first immigration law to

the united states limited immigration to

white persons so even the argument that

for instance like well the irish weren't

white or the polish weren't white or the

italians weren't white well even when

the immigration laws of the united

states limited immigration to white

persons they were allowed in so

obviously there there has always been a

white identity since literally the very

beginning of the american republic now

i'm opposed to white supremacy and

colonialism and capitalism obviously but

you know the idea that this is a

newfangled term that they just came up

with i don't believe is accurate from a

history no i i know the the white

categories always exist but it's like

the way that it kind of seems you're

interfacing with it is very similar it's

just very reminiscent of a kind of

liberal and or neoliberal individualism

where it's like what really is the point

beyond

having something with which to

individually you know the reason for

this identity politics and individualism

is career climbing that's why it's so

individualistic it's like well this is

my specific lived experience and it's

it's used as a form of personal capital

so it's just kind of strange when when

you see that

take that form of like

it kind of seems like and i don't i

don't think you're doing this

consciously but i think like the

practical implication would be like i

want to use the white identity as a form

of personal capital right but i i think

that the paradigm of individual personal

capitals we use to career climb

is fundamentally anti-communist i mean

even when we respect for example i do

have respect for uh black

nationalism and so on but that's not a

matter of like a personal

individualistic identity politics it's a

collective project for a discreetly

identifiable

people right

well i mean i i promise there's no

social capital and i'm taking a

affirmative i don't know

it seems like it seems like for example

you're coming out of perspective of

wanting one right and that's the source

of the unfairness you perceive

but i don't think it's it's unfair i

think the the social capital existing in

the first place is fundamentally

individualistic and neoliberal so

well i mean i would politely disagree

because i would say it's fundamentally

collective and communal it's the white

capitalists that have no sense of

identity just like any capitalist

doesn't right their identity is green

their idea identity is one another to

exploit working people so the idea of

having an ethnic identity is actually a

communal sort of perspective and we

we've seen this amongst you know

communist movements and socialist

movements throughout history you know

the the national question of ho chi minh

or of even the soviet union was

never a question so no i think it's a

rejection of individualism it's a

rejection of the liberal establishment

and instead is trying to bring our sense

of community back that then we can

organize class consciousness within

um okay so

from black lennon thank you for the

super chat i said question for matthew

do you believe in the labor aristocracy

what are your thoughts on it do you deny

it i'm interested to hear your answer

well i mean if we're to talk about the

the managerial class um and stuff that

exists i think at the end of the day the

labor aristocracy really comes down to

there are capitalists and there are

proletarians and we've really muddied

the water in especially the service

economies of the west and things like

that to we're thinking that like your

supervisor because he might get higher

wages or things like that is uh somehow

a boss uh totally misunderstands

what socialism is and what capitalism is

like if you're a temporarily

disadvantaged millionaire which

unfortunately is the perspective of a

lot of americans right and there's a

great book uh it didn't happen here

which kind of discusses why socialism

never was able to fully take root in the

united states as it did in a lot of

european asian countries

um i think that there's a

misunderstanding of what the capitalist

system in the capitalist economy is

and that's really been a point of

division like the enemy is not your boss

on like

at the locals you know mcdonald's or

like the local factory it's the guy that

owns the means of production

okay thank you and um

from chris thank you for the super chat

i said matthew why do you sound like an

intersectionality seminar with different

semantics

oh i don't know maybe it's

i spent too much time in grad school i

guess

no but um i mean the thing is is

working to explain these concepts that i

think that there's a lot we see in

modern academia in the modern media that

their their final analysis and their

takes are wrong but they bring up a lot

of interesting points that we can apply

and adapt i mean socialism and marxist

leninism is a scientific process of

understanding the world around us and

where we're developing and going so um

you know you take what you can from all

sides in a scientific and thoughtful way

and then apply that to your current

circumstances

okay

um and now from patty vandal thank you

for the super chat

hey matt do you know how patty t is

doing is i'm guessing this is a troll

question huh no no no no no uh patty

charlton he no he was speaking about

white culture

he was a folk musician

that turned out uh some amazing albums

from um you know within the

traditionalist worker party and um you

know he was grounded as a folk musician

in that um sphere when his family going

back hundreds of years and adapting a

lot of old tunes and stuff like that to

a modern political context

i don't actually know how he's doing

haven't spoken to him in several years

but i do think his work was an example

of kind of a unique take on a cultural

expression

um from gulemero escobar i don't know um

thank you for the super chat i said

explain why jews aren't white americans

even though they were white under the

naturalization act of

1790.

oh well i mean that's easy they have

their own ethnic identity that even if

for instance you're a secular jew which

most jews are

that most jews are rooted in their own

religious and ethnic heritage and

concepts that regardless if you're a

polish jew or a german jew or something

like that and even if you don't practice

your religion that you know you see

amongst these communities you can be as

secular as the day is long but you're

still then rooted in your

ethno-religious identity um so just

because and that's an important to

understand whiteness is not about

melanin whiteness is about a shared

cultural history and identity and you

know if you were you know well maybe a

german and then we might get into some

controversial topics but let's say a

french like if you're french

um and you could be a french jew and

you've got a tie to your own you know

jewishness and identity that is separate

from the standard french identity and um

you know you come to the united states

you're still jewish um just like someone

who comes here and uh you know is

algerian he's uh might have an american

passport but he's still gonna be an

algerian he has a tie to his community

and uh and so do jews even if they're

secular

well but besides the i mean uh uh

besides the religious background and you

know being secular and jewish doesn't

erase that religious background like for

example there's a lot of secular muslims

but they're still fundamentally

different than christians right but i

don't see

like if you ask black people if you ask

latinos if you ask non-white people

in america jews are fundamentally white

i mean i don't see how you can't

i mean they're just as white as italians

or poles or or anyone else that's how

they're considered

you know i mean um

and this is important but it's not how

they consider themselves and we can see

that with foreign the creation of the

zionist occupation in palestine um even

if they are white in you know some of

the conceptions of american history they

themselves do not identify with that

unique ethnic identity and the cultural

and often religious trappings that come

with that they identify as jews and

that's why you know american jews

overwhelmingly support the zionist

occupation and israeli apartheid and

they're they're tied to their roots so

you know it's not just about skin color

it's about selling i know

but but culturally speaking and i don't

really know if they don't consider

themselves white just because israel

exists but regardless culturally

speaking

they're they are considered not because

of how they look but because of the

similar culture they're considered white

by black people and by latinos and by

other non-white people they're not seen

as like somehow

non-white or outside uh white

i mean i would disagree

in the same way that italians are right

well no i mean even look back to uh to

malcolm x for instance i mean malcolm x

was very vocal about the fact that in

harlem and places in the black community

that he didn't talk about white folks

owning the liquor stores and white folks

um you know working yeah yeah in the

black nationalist movement what right

right but you even even in that context

when he was singling them out

it's because he thought he viewed them

as a type of white people and actually

the nate the

at the time and even to this day like

many black nationalists who are referred

to as anti-semitic

if you hear what they say they that's

actually what they think they believe

that american jews are a type of white

people they're they are white right now

there might be anti-semitism where

they're being singled out in some cases

but

not in so far as they're seen as

non-whites

see i disagree i mean and the example of

the nation of islam is a great one

actually

i mean on the secret relationship

between blacks and jews it's a

three-volume historical set that's been

put out by the nation of islam and they

very clearly argue in all three volumes

with a tremendous amount of historical

research that they don't lump jews and

white people in together and volume one

specifically focuses on the slave trade

how there was an over-representation in

slavery in terms of owning the slave

ships the exploitation of black people

um you know literally making profits

that built uh capitals yeah again they

may they may distinguish them but

they're still considered a type of white

people

maybe a unique type of white people

but they're still considered white i i

mean i don't think so looking at the

writings of of black nationalists um and

black socialists even

uh that they've ever

seen

actually

that's very same kind of anti-semitism

that's coming from the black national

some not all black nationalist writings

is precisely because uh

american jews are like identified as

whites

like that's actually the reason why it's

like it's part of the broader

kind of um

mythos for example that like white

people were created from the mad

scientist

uh yakub and so on and like this whole

thing right and

the anti-semitism is just that they

include jewish people within that

well i mean the thing is like if you

look somalians could be considered black

um by white americans right but black

folks you know here in the united states

and somalians themselves would reject

that identity so just well actually it's

it's interesting i don't need to cut you

off but there is a whole new movement

and there is a degree of um

reality to it of

american descendants of slaves who

consider themselves totally separate

from all african not totally separate

but consider themselves

like it's you can't just say we are all

black like there's clearly a difference

between black americans and other

african peoples in general not just

somalis right

so

yeah but

i guess my broader point would and that

that wouldn't that's not the nation of

islam and so on people but i guess my

broader point would be with that is that

um

that calls into question

the american whether the american

notions of race in the first place

have any credibility or objectivity

whether white black and so on and so on

well i mean i would say that in this

specific example it just goes to show

that identity you know whether it's

whiteness or blackness or your somali

heritage or whatever it is um comes from

self that just because you know if you

you look and you see someone you go like

ah that's a that's a that's a black man

right and it's like well actually i'm

nigerian and i have my affirmative

nigerian identity and all this storied

history or i'm ethiopian or stuff like

that it's not my place as a white person

to say oh no no you're you're just black

right no uh just like it's not the place

of if someone is from you know south

africa and they say um oh well blackness

isn't real you should be igbo or you

should you know you are zulu like well

no it's not their place to determine the

identity either it's an internal

intergroup inter-community perspective

on on self so just because if some

groups were to say oh well jews are

white because you know they're they're

light-skinned um i don't think that

speaks to the jewish belief on

themselves as a tie to an as an

ethno-religious community and i don't

think it really matters one way or the

other when people outside of the

community say the community is because

it's it's a self-identification based on

shared concepts in history

well i mean to be fair i don't want to

dwell too much on this but you know

people who are in italian families or

polish families they're rarely going to

like go out of their way to identify

themselves as white but when push comes

to shove right

um especially when they're put in

specific context with non-white people

they're going to be like yeah we're

white you know so they're very actually

very

very very few americans

in general are just going to like

primarily identify themselves as white

is the thing like

they're going to only consider

themselves white given the right context

but otherwise they're either americans

or their appalachians or their kajoons

or their poles or their irish and so on

and so on i mean i i disagree i was

dating a greek gal in college and uh

her daddy uh eventually decided like uh

you know you're uh you are not part of

our ethnic community and you can't see

my daughter anymore right

yeah so uh

but but in another context they may

identify or see themselves as white

i mean but i really don't think that

when you look at their religious

expressions their cultural expressions

that isn't accurate and i mean i would

encourage you maybe it'd be a fun wacky

road i think it's i think it's only

inaccurate in so far as they're

different from the majority of white

people in the united states

but that doesn't necessarily mean that

they don't share in quality the the

quality of whiteness right so it's a

question of what the essence of these

different peoples are and i think that's

where our main dispute is but we can

actually

move on i know we're kind of

um yeah and so

gully i don't even know how to say that

um he said i think if it's super chat he

said why do jews identify as white on

the census

why do people identify as negroes still

on the senses like

i don't think the american empire's

definitions of putting people into boxes

speaks in any capacity to what the lived

experiences of working families is and

how those communities determine who they

are and who their children are

and then um nathaniel thank you for the

stupid chat he said why is there

something rather than nothing

i mean i'm guessing it's kind of like a

little bit of a troll question i'm not

sure he's really asking this was it

addressed to someone or no

it was just kind of a thank you for the

super chat um we have quite a few so

wait um zoltanus says and thank you for

the super chat zoltanus is the one who

kind of um got this whole debate going

so thank you very much for that

um but he said ask both of them what

they think about maoist rebel news and

his fallout for mods

um i'll let you take that one to start

yeah i think uh jason unfortunately i

tried to be cordial to him i tried to be

polite to him and respectful

he is going down a downward spiral and

completely making a fool of himself

across the board

um

all i could say is you know i i

genuinely hope he

puts an end to what he's doing and seeks

some help

because it's quite embarrassing at this

point but

that's it

i um i don't follow a whole lot of

internet feuds so i have no

particular comment on that but uh to

jump back to the previous super chat

that i do have an opinion on

um

arabs identify as white on the census

too

and they obviously have their own ethnic

identity so i think the american census

system is just fundamentally broken

because obviously there's a a distinct

history that uh that arab folks have uh

and often religious differences and

things like that and it's uh you know a

policy of erasure that the american

empire does to real ethnic and cultural

and religious identities

so

no opinion on the feuds though

all right

um ones that i can pull up uh thank you

for this super chat from jan says uh

doesn't white socialism obfuscate class

consciousness in general in america

do you want to start with that or do you

want me to take it first

i mean i guess the i i guess the

question is for you because i'm not yeah

i'm not white socialism right

um well i mean the thing is is i don't

view it as white socialism specifically

i view it as socialism that involves

white people um just like i don't think

having an affirmative black identity or

latino identity or arab identity or

indigenous identity

gets in the way of class consciousness

because obviously in the capitalist

system the proletariat we do have

class similarities we have a shared

class struggle and i don't think

affirmative identity gets in the way of

that i actually think it tries to

empower us because the capitalist system

wants to break down

all of our identities and i'm very

critical of chomsky so don't take this

as i'm endorsing uh noam chomsky but uh

you know he had a very valid point when

he argued that capitalism begins as

racist as that's a way to exploit

people's labor and their resources but

it fundamentally becomes anti-racist

insofar as it's anti-human because human

differences cultural differences

religious differences get in the way of

capitalism like the capitalists want to

be able to sell beer in saudi arabia and

pulled pork sandwiches to make some

profit um they want to be able to uh you

know open up liquor stores and uh dry

counties in tennessee because that gets

in the way of uh of of capital and

making profit so you know for from for

me i don't think white socialism um is

anything other than white people who

participate in the socialist movement

um from chris morlock thank you for the

super chat he said no one cares about

white identity outside of people who

hate white liberals telling them that

they can't have this identity

not sure if it was a question but um

thank you

um and then another one from chris

morlock thank you for the super chat he

said matthew you seem to be larping as a

marxist leninist and trying to submit

uh our clout

but we specifically reject nations

especially nation states being solely

based on race or tribe genes are fake

um well if we get into the argument that

genes and science are fake i don't know

what there is to talk about but you know

when james connolly as a marxist and as

one of the founders of the international

workers of the world when he you know

helped write and signed the irish

declaration of the irish republic in

1916 he specifically talked about the

irish nation uh having liberation you

know if you look at the writings of ho

chi minh that said that patriotism

motivated him initially not socialism or

communism

um you know it speaks to the national

character that has always existed

marxist leninism has held up the

principles of the nation i mean during

world war ii

during the great patriotic war the

soviet union of course they were

fighting for socialism against the

fascist invasion but they were also

fighting for the rodina they were

fighting for the motherland and on your

pass cards in the soviet union your

ethnic identity was put on that and

celebrations were held in the soviet

union and in modern china and things

like that to celebrate all the ethnic

communities that existed in a union of

fraternal peoples that it didn't say

just a union of workers who happen to

exist in these various flesh suits and

different you know tones and colors no

it's a union of fraternal peoples that

come together for the principles of

socialism and solidarity and that's what

international proletarian patriotism is

so i would say there is nothing new or

unique of what i'm saying i'm following

in the examples of stalin mao lenin and

connolly and uh yeah that's good enough

for me

to be clear though we are uh marxist

leninist in the stalin stalinistan so

we do we are lysenkowitz we do reject

genes

and uh so-called bourgeois science

i mean the soviet union did have a

department of eugenics prior to the

beginning of the great patriotic war um

so but that's not here nor there

but this was this was rejected by

lysenko and stalinist

thank you for the super chat julie or

something he says um as american

families increasingly become racially

mixed what does organizing as primarily

your anglo find racial category do

besides create more tension among

workers and family members

oh well i mean that's easy if people

want to be part of mixed families that's

fine um you know it's again identity and

community comes down to

self-determination on an individual

level and a community level so

i don't think it gets in the way that if

someone identifies as part of a blended

community or if they themselves are of

mixed heritage and race that's great

that's good for you let's work for

socialism that doesn't mean that i have

to give up my identity and i don't think

it causes tension so long as we

understand this concept of a union of

fraternal peoples that if we're all in

this together for the sake of uh you

know fighting against the capitalist

class our different identities shouldn't

be a point of weakness it should

actually be a point of strength to say

that we the united working class of the

world are coming together as who we are

in solidarity with one another on class

lines to achieve common goals

okay and uh from jan thank you for the

super chat doesn't white socialism wait

did i do this one uh

yeah okay i did this one um all right so

let me go to the other ones that i have

they're a little bit mixed up but okay

so from

uh

yeah so from julie

i don't really know what the name says

but i think the super chatty says um

lemantines were considered white by

scotus in 1915. as heim heimbach if uh

lebantine americans are white or not

well it comes down to again how they

personally identify i mean have they

been here for an extended period and

they feel like they've grafted into the

same shared ethnic community um then

okay it comes down to you know again

self-determination not just existing

in the idea of political decisions or

things like that but how communities you

know identify and if they identify with

their levantine roots well that's great

if they identify as part of the white

community i'm not here as the commissar

of whiteness to determine who is or

isn't in my shared ethnic community i

know what i'm a part of as part of an

extended family and uh if they identify

well that's great

um also from julie yerma or something i

think for the super chat he says ask

heimot to explain why a slavic american

orthodox christian is the same ethnicity

of a protestant baptist who has been

here since the 1600s

well i've specifically said speaking of

orthodoxy the opposite of that earlier

um you know specifically in orthodox

communities there's usually a tie

usually liturgy is done in the language

of the home country so you go to a serb

church or bulgarian church it's going to

be in serb or bulgarian you go to a

russian church it's going to be an old

church slavonic which is a old-school

russian in the truest sense and in many

cases these folks have maintained their

ethnic identities from their homelands

so i wouldn't want to lump them in if

they still identify with being served or

if they still identify with being greek

then that's a fine national identity for

them to hold on to and that doesn't get

in the way of solidarity because i don't

think it should be limited based on

ethnic identity who's working for

socialism but if they identify as being

part of the white community and things

like that well that's great too it's

really down to personal identification

and choice not a point of contention of

you can't join my you know my socialist

party or you can't work with me it's

part of embracing the human experience

of the idea of the tribe and then

amplifying that through solidarity with

other people

um and from history talk thank you super

chat it says why define people from the

far south of europe sicilians maltese

etc as white when they have light brown

skin if it's because they're caucasian

then pakistanis and saudis are white too

they're also caucasian

well again it comes down to how the

individuals and the communities identify

in a lot of ways ethnicity in the

american context is kind of like how the

supreme court talked about pornography

um you can't define it specifically but

you know it when you see it and it's

part of how you identify not only as an

individual and then as a family but as a

local community and then a national

community so if they choose to identify

that's great but if you are in new

jersey and you're a sicilian american

and you still identify as sicilian i'm

not going to impose on you what your

identity should be you can speak for

yourself um from nathaniel thank you for

the stupid chat said has can you expound

on the lennon's thesis that fascism is

is capitalism in decay and perhaps give

an opinion as to whether that really is

accurate

i don't think lenin said this i think

someone else said this uh gromski

gramsci

lenin

did not give a definitive evaluation of

the phenomena of fascism but i've

interpreted this as a break fascism was

uh

the breakdown decay of classical

modernity from the 19th century

specifically that form of capitalism

um from the from escobar again thank you

for the super chat he said ask matt to

explain why secular ashkenazi jews

aren't white he will falter

and expose himself for being a fraud

he's got a lot of these uh these

questions i'm glad i'm doing so much

fundraising for you guys this is great

no because their identity is still

unique i mean even going back in the

american south for instance where you

know you have judith benjamin who is the

head of the economy essentially for the

confederate government uh he was jewish

and there were specific monuments built

to the jewish contributions and stuff

like that um to the confederacy which

that's a whole another show that we

could go into but i mean even back in

the day whether they were secular or

religious they've defined themselves as

a unique ethno-religious community and

that's great good for them um however we

have our own shared ethnic community

that we're a part of and the problem is

with so like with the discussion on

socialism we can reduce tensions between

ethnic groups by promoting solidarity

and this isn't a whites versus everyone

else sort of situation instead it's a

great opportunity for us to come

together and celebrate one another's

differences in true diversity not forced

diversity or forced multiculturalism or

the destruction of ethnic religious or

cultural identities which capitalism

calls for instead it's a time for us to

be positive and enhance and embrace who

we are

um from your average griper thank you

for the super chat he said opinion on

distributism

and in what regard

is that is that the catholic

uh social uh i'm not sure that's that's

what that is right let me

um

should i read the next one and then

i mean

yeah it's uh

i've i've heard uh

i've heard i'm not that familiar with i

don't know i like to look at things in

their practical application historical

context

but not as abstractions so i think

that's a question of the history of you

know

from mom's silo thank you for the super

chat said haas you have claimed to have

read dugan then you should know in his

book

in his book ethnos and society that

americans american whites would

constitute a narrow and not an ethnos

what

he's he said uh a what the not an ethnos

um

well yes then i don't agree they're in

ethnos dugan

shares this view with me

i would politely disagree

um from escobar thank you again for the

super chat um i used to host a podcast

with heimbach he is lying about his

convictions let me come on explosive

maybe another night i would i would

encourage everyone to listen to our

episodes i think it was great

conversations including like uh i don't

know like 10 hours on the autobiography

of uh fidel castro which is a great show

so uh

billy i'm sorry we're not friends

anymore but i still respect the work

that you do

um from history talk thank you for the

super chat uh matt claims to apply

socialism in the american context but

there is no identitarian socialist

tradition in the us

nazball is a dead russian ideology and

not just larping like in his nazi days

by pretending to be one

well i i mean i would say i get all my

larping out when i reenact uh that's one

of my fun hobbies uh so i fill up my

capacity on live action role playing uh

but as i said before i think we need to

develop socialism in an american context

and you know i would be more of a huey

long uh national bolshevik than i would

be trying to put dugan into an american

box or lemanov or or any of those guys i

can see historical inspirations and be

like oh that's a great point those are

some great ideas but the revolution has

to be grown organically that's why the

north korean solution is different than

the chinese solution it's going to be

different than the russian solution and

it's going to be different than the one

that takes place here in the united

states and there's a lot we can learn

from history and other movements but

we've got to develop it here for us in

our current context because i care about

helping working families i care about

the future of my kids and the millions

of kids that are their age that are

growing up in a society that is headed

towards ecological and economic

destruction and we can do better it's

not about transplanting foreign

ideologies it's about understanding a

scientific analysis of economics human

civilization and society to build a

better future for all of us

from nathaniel thank you for the super

chat says in your opinion what is the

extent of alexander dugan's influence on

the ideology

and statecraft of vladimir putin please

feel free to cite any evidence even if

it's anecdotal

um i've heard rumors and nothing more

i'm sure

putin

and upper echelons of the russian

military are familiar with his book

foundations of geopolitics

beyond that

i don't know i don't really know it's

hard to tell

i wouldn't overestimate it though i

really wouldn't

i think it's very putin he comes

it's very easy to become dugan without

even knowing who dugan is in russia it's

very easy to like reconcile one's own

soviet marxist leninist past with a

newfound discovery of russian uh

russian orthodox civilization so it's i

wouldn't overestimate it

i i do believe if um i mean it could be

mistaken that at least some of his

materials are required reading uh once

you reach the rank of colonel and above

at some of the russian military

academies so i mean i i do think he has

an interesting role but but it's funny

you mentioned uh

um people being able to you know have

opinions on dugan and stuff like that

without knowing him because uh for very

long a very long time the idea of having

a positive uh perception of of the

russian federation and its moves to

block american hegemony especially in

eastern europe uh you know you get

called a duganite and stuff like that

and most these people on all sides use

words but they don't actually know what

they mean probably never read the books

but you know that's that's the tragedy

of the internet age

from the silent k thank you for the

stupid chat if matthew felt an authentic

identity as a furry because of his lived

experience does this entail furry

self-determination

i fully encourage all furries to

exercise self-determination in their own

community away from us

okay and then um again from esguard

thank you for the super chat why are

jews not allowed to personally identify

as white

well because they're part of their own

ethno-religious community and they

already have an identity i mean the same

sort of idea as a white american you

know pulling a rachel does all and

pretending to be black and then taking

on that ethnic identity the history the

trauma that's associated of course with

being a black american over the past

four centuries uh it's fundamentally

disingenuous so i would say jews have

their own identity their own religious

background and stuff like that and for

them to play a rachel dolezal um is as

wrong as you know they just caught a

academic that i was pretending to be uh

american indian uh i mean saying the

elizabeth warren sort of thing it's

wrong to take on identities in the

experiences and histories of other

peoples

that belongs to those people that have

lived through it and developed their

identity from that

um from zoltan thank you for the super

chat he said have any of you read the

north korean publication criticizing the

theory of a multi-racial society as

lacking character in destroying korean

bloodlines

uh well the the cleanest race i think is

a really interesting book i've got some

critiques of it but the discussion of

juje specifically and the conception of

the nation that developed with kim

il-sung thought is fascinating i think

brings up a lot of very valid points

that the north korean solution to

develop socialism to eventually develop

communism and be able to defend

themselves against the american empire

is fundamentally worked they are still

an independent nation and what works for

them in their context has been

overwhelmingly positive because very few

nations have been able to face down uh

the might of the united states of

america and the capitalist empires and

come out on top so you know what works

for them good for them

we're almost caught up um from voidburn

thank you for the super chat heimbach

you've still failed to address what

makes whiteness essential or compulsory

to achieving american socialism as far

as i have heard you only repeat liberal

sounding individualistic identitarian

talking points

well it's community based it's not about

the individual it's not an identity of

one it's a shared identity within my

expanded family within my community so

in terms of having our identity it's

part of the human experience right human

beings are tribal creatures and trying

to you know if especially if we're

scientific socialists the idea of

ignoring a huge part of the human

experience on you know a historical

level evolutionary level and on an

immediate level in the here and now

human beings are tribal creatures so

trying to work against that is like

trying to pretend that gravity doesn't

exist or things like that and we can

either harness it so it can be used for

good or if we simply abandon identity

what that's going to do is it's going to

allow the forces of reaction to appeal

to this natural human characteristic to

promote their own good and you can see

that with the american empire you know

they were you know dr seuss was doing

racist caricatures about the japanese to

encourage farm boys from iowa to go kill

the japs in the guadalcanal and stuff

like that um

if we ignore the human characteristics

it will end up being used against

socialism and instead we can follow

marxist leninist line and have

affirmative identity for union of

fraternal peoples and that's far more

positive and takes a huge weapon that

the reactionary right especially

utilizes against working-class

organizing

okay um i think we are all caught up on

our super chats thank you guys so much

you guys have been very generous tonight

we really do appreciate it um we can go

into closing statements and final

thoughts if you like

uh one second give me one second

can you mute the stream for a sec

me

mute it yeah yeah um i don't know how to

do that

like i can meet myself okay okay never

mind we can just continue oh wait wait

we have one more that just came in also

um

all right so it's thank you for the

super chat

usually norman lib and ultras try to

push the fantasy that kayla maupin or

haas is a red fascist which they are

clearly not and it doesn't really exist

but here we are with matthew

poor caleb i uh can i just say i've got

a tremendous amount of respect for caleb

maupin and for you guys just being

willing to have this conversation but

you know a lot of flak has come up

against mr maupin recently because he

said look uh he says that he supported

abortion and gay marriage and you know

is on the left on a lot of these culture

issues but he's willing to work with

working-class people across the board

whether it's a black church going granny

in georgia that has socially

conservative views

or if that's a former trump supporter

that's seen the error of their ways and

wants to build socialism then he's

willing to work with them and not divide

on culture war lines and he's being

attacked as is any socialist that's

willing to promote class solidarity

above culture war and it just goes to

show i think the synthetic nature of the

very vocal voices that exist in the

so-called american left that has nothing

to do with class and everything about

pet projects of essentially like

bourgeois college students and people

that literally live in portlandia

all right so if you guys want to do

closing statements uh matt you want to

go first

sure um

well i guess it's my closing statement

uh first i wanted to say thank you uh

for all you guys being willing to host

me and thank you for all the commenters

of being willing to be here and watching

our stream and you know for me the most

important thing is my kid's future you

know um i'm a single dad i've got a

four-year-old and a six-year-old and i

know you know i i've taken plenty of

dings when it comes to maintaining work

due to my politics but working in

factories literally working on farms and

having a multitude of experiences and

being part of the working class

i see how miserable things are

for working people of all ethnic

backgrounds uh where you trade your body

and you break it down just so someone

else can be rich you know as big bill

haywood said if uh someone has a dollar

that they didn't earn they took it from

someone and that's from the working

class

so we have a great opportunity here i

think in 2021 because the establishment

left has fundamentally discredited

itself uh the so-called dissidents like

the dsa have no interest in the

experiences of working families and they

support the american imperialist agenda

pretty much to a t

so we're not going to have help from the

false populace of donald trump

we're not going to be able to rely on

the institutional left it's going to be

up to working people as we have

historically around the world and as we

did here in the united states

especially in the 1960s i keep bringing

up the rainbow coalition but i think

it's a great example or the labor

struggle in the logan county cold wars

and things like that where we can find

power together through solidarity and

that means understanding who we are as

individuals as communities and our place

in a class war because if you don't

believe in class war it's being waged

against you every single day and it's up

for us you know up to us to be able to

come together in a positive way to

understand one another respect one

another across ethnic cultural and

religious lines to fight for a better

future for my children and for yours and

for everyone around the world so that's

what i want to be able to do and i don't

think the synthetic left should be

allowed to say that just because you

have a white identity you don't have a

place in the socialist movement um

whether someone has an ethnic identity

or not if you are a working-class person

that wants a better future for

working-class people you're my comrade

and it's time for us to start working

together so thank you guys

thank you

yeah unfortunately i had to interrupt uh

the stream for a second i sent you a

twitter dm letting you know about it

yeah

but anyway regardless uh yeah i mean

after this debate i still have no idea

and do not see any value in the

so-called uh

recognizing a white identity i don't see

why anyone would want to let's talk

about white pride or white nationalism

or identify white people you know as a

specific ethnos or as a specific nation

other than to be anarchistic and

provocative against liberals i mean i

you know you could maybe rally white

people around the fact

that you know

there is a huge push back against like

white people that you're seeing in this

country around the board with black

lives matter and stuff beyond being a

form of collective grievance i don't see

any such thing as a white identity i

mean people have pointed out how can

sicilians how can italians

be considered white then you responded

by saying that

this is just because it's their

individual preference right and then we

don't know how to distinguish them from

furries then someone asked okay so why

can't jewish people identify in the same

way

and you say uh because it's their

specific background so it seems

completely arbitrary and there's no

scientific

objective or material criterion with

which we can identify i don't see why

someone would want to cling or be so

attached to any kind of white identity i

mean the feeling you have in your

stomach that attaches you to the

tradition of your father your

forefathers

and so on and so on

i couldn't see how that can be

reconcilable with something called white

right i can get it if your father was

from ireland he's from scotland or if

you maybe just identify him as an

american he's an american right these

are genuine patriarchical sorry uh

patriotic and uh

you know

national forms of um

self-understanding but

white does not really

it doesn't seem to mean anything and

although maybe you could say oh but

you're not white yourself

which again it's it's so arbitrary

because there's so many people who do

accuse me of being white and being a

white chauvinist and whatever so i

really don't know where this stuff can

even begin or end but all i can say is

it seems unnecessarily divisive

and um

within the american context where the

point is about a new american identity a

new american civilization

so

you know that's that's really what i

take away what i take away from the

debate is i don't see

the need for socialists to have to care

to or cater to the needs of

idiocyncric individual identities right

if someone should choose to wake up one

day and say i identify as a horse

uh they may gallop in their private life

all they want but why should a socialist

or communist organization

give any attention to this or care about

this right it's this is what separates

genuine uh communistic aesthetic from um

from

neoliberal individualist aesthetic now

finally i do understand why some people

might say well then why is it that one

has a recognition of black nationalism

and black separatism and so on and so on

well the reason is because

within the american context if at least

we're talking about the american

descendants of slavery they are a

specific and unique uh

nation or people or some kind of reality

now maybe they will in the future

you know decide as a matter of

self-determination to join in this

american civilization american project

but

they have no reason to trust it is the

problem right

so

um that's something i just fundamentally

respect i have to respect because they

were excluded from american project

right after slavery so

that's pretty much uh all i have to say

on that matter

um we did get one last super chat um

let me just pull it up really quick and

then we're gonna close this down from

history talk thank you for the stupid

chat so matthew you are suggesting that

if harrison ford who is jewish doesn't

identify as non-white i.e person of

color he is literally adolescent

rachel dolezal uh well what i would say

to that is if he doesn't identify with

his his own heritage and history it's

tragic to see the destination and

alienation as marx predicted that comes

with the capitalist system i mean the

capital system wants to break any sort

of ties of heritage community family to

turn us into atomized producers and

consumers

so it would be tragic if he doesn't have

an identity but

who we are

all i'm asking for as i said is i don't

think there should be a specific

catering to just people who identify

with my ethnic identity what i want

though is that those of us who do

be allowed to be part of the coalition

building for the sake of socialism i

don't think anyone should be excluded

because of what their ethnic identity is

and you can see the example in socialist

movements historically where uh jewish

organizations wanted to have their own

specific jewish organizations in the

soviet union and marxist leninist shut

that down you can have affirmative

identities and cultural expressions as

existed in the soviet union but no one

should be placed over another and i

don't think that this should be a

conversation about

every other identity versus white

identity but all of us as working class

people with who we are fighting for a

better future um for all of us so we

shouldn't exclude anyone based on their

ethnic identity and that goes for black

folks latino folks asian folks

indigenous folks but also white folks

thank you guys both for coming this was

i know you wanted uh matthew to have it

more of a discussion in general than um

like a you know contentious debate so i

thought this was really good um yeah

thank you i think we can all still be

friends right yeah let's be friends

all right well um yeah so we i think are

back tomorrow at i believe six p p.m

eastern we got two stuff going on

tomorrow um but yeah we'll have an

immigration debate at 6 00 pm eastern we

also have a conspiracy panel at 9 00 pm

eastern which won't be on youtube it'll

be on odyssey d live and trovo on

whether or not the election was stolen

and that um the poll is up in the

community section you guys can go vote

um and yeah we'll see you guys tomorrow

night and thank you guys for coming