Dylan Burns Gets WIPED on Taiwan, then PUNKS OUT of a fight! [UNEDITED] 🚀 Infrared Content Catalog

then go ahead and test me outside you

really want to go outside and fight me

right now you can test me you're free to

test my man you don't you're free to

test my manhood let's continue you're

not a reason

you just you're just

saying go ahead go ahead go ahead you

can keep talking about it

uh

after the opening segments we'll jump

right into it like i said q a with a

hard helmet if you help me keep checked

out 215 14 15 for that

with that who would like to go first

i'm fine either way

uh you go ahead

okay

the history of taiwan is a history of

struggle whether it be the indigenous

peoples movements against the qing

dynasty which they struggled dearly i

believe one of the phrases was every

three years in insurrection every five

years in uprising all the way to modern

ages as they try to make a bulwark

against an invading force which is

consistently tried to be aggressive

against the new state of a democratic

republic of china if the question is is

taiwan a part of china the answer is yes

it is part of the republic of china

taiwan

when we talk about the justification

from a historical perspective you could

look at the resistance movement against

japanese

spanish

dutch and chinese imperialism

in what you can call taiwan what you can

call uh

the government in taipei or even the

republic of hermosa if we're talking

about the japanese

it has a history of democracy if you

look at the republican the republic of

hermosa the declaration that they put

out

it was very parisian in nature it was we

are establishing a republic

in here to defend against the japanese

invaders that was in 1895

and when we talk about the modern

history of taiwan it is a struggle to

not only develop an identity which is a

new one one that is taiwanese in nature

when the vast majority of the population

now identify as taiwanese they have

their own language they have their own

currency they have their own judicial

system they have their own military they

have their own laws they have

really their own nation

but it's not a nation in the eyes of

some why because they're playing pretend

they're playing pretend if i was to take

out this phone in my pocket and say this

is not a phone now it functions in every

way as a phone i can turn it on i can

text i can call i can do all these

things but it's not a phone i'm not

being honest with you i'm lying for any

number of reasons in this case people

are lying because they don't want to

piss off the people's republic of china

the mainland government

now let's talk about the conclusions if

someone was to say you know what i

disregard the historical basis for

taiwan's independent struggle in the

indigenous community or its own language

or its own identity that's developed or

the fact that they want their own

democracy i disregard the historical

basis let's talk about the reality of

disregarding that historical basis and

saying that the taiwanese cannot have

their own state and this is a merely an

internal affair taiwan is a nation of 25

million people it is one of the most

dense nations on earth 17 when it comes

to density if you listen to the taipei

times it's actually first if you exclude

mountainous reasons syria was 20 million

and it ranked 67th on the density scale

if we were to drop our support for

taiwan

the likelihood of war would skyrocket as

the leverage that taiwan has in

upholding its democracy would vanish and

a war across the taiwan strait would be

an absolute disaster not only would a

refugee crisis spiral out of control

worse than what we saw in syria but

america would actually be one of the

prime recipient of refugees because the

taiwanese community has deep ties to

california and many of them would be

feeling persecution political

persecution that is from the government

coming in that is something we would

have to feel the full effects of the

semiconductor industry which the world

relies on when one company within taiwan

the tmsc produces 50 of the foundries

necessary for

semiconductor production that would take

a hit international trade would take a

hit our trade with that nation would

take away america's reputation would

take a hit not to even talk about the

civil liberties that the taiwanese have

fought against uh say chen kai-shek for

example to develop that's another thing

many people will talk about the white

terror or chiang kai-shek's government

or the brutality of it and will use that

as a justification to dis delegitimize

the taiwanese people and their struggle

for independence well that's interesting

since the people that shen kaisek purged

first were the independence advocates

chiang kai-shek wanted to re-conquer the

mainland and so he purged the indigenous

people's advocates for an independent

taiwan and those people fought for years

to have a democratic taiwan with his own

system of government so i'm not going to

ramble anymore i have a lot of points i

want to go into and a lot of questions

for has about the conclusions that would

come from uh his worldview here but i'll

just stop it there

so there's three points i want to

address

amidst all that firstly let me preface

this by saying there is absolutely no

historical basis

for the region of taiwan to be a

separate country from china

the history of the relationship between

the han chinese and the indigenous

people of

taiwan is a rather interesting one the

only problem is that taiwan is currently

around 98 to 99 han chinese so there's

absolutely no basis in the historically

indigenous people of taiwan

for the indigenous for sorry foreign

independence movement as a matter of

fact some of the most renowned

indigenous politicians within

taiwan are the most ardent advocates for

unification and anti-independence

so it's rather interesting that the

indigenous people of taiwan by and large

are against independence

whereas some han liberal elites within

taiwan pro-american

are the most in favor of independence so

this talk of the indigenous struggle

against the qing or the the han chinese

is a complete nonsensical uh non-factor

in the question of whether taiwan is a

country or not because indigenous people

do not factor whatsoever in the question

of whether taiwan

is an independent country now second of

all in the history i will concede that

politics has oftentimes played a role in

defining nation states

france was a historically

united

region based on the kingdom of france

and the common shared language customs

etc but it did not become a nation-state

until it was united by the republic in

ideals of the french revolution so i

will concede that politics often plays a

part politics and religion in the

formation of nations the only problem is

that china is not just a nation it is

not a nation state it is a 5 000 year

long civilization that has endured many

different types of political systems and

political um forms while nonetheless

maintaining being the one country of

china the one civilization of china

junghwa the middle kingdom of the world

basically is how it conceived itself

so this 5 000 year long

civilization is not producible to a

certain political project or a political

ideal which is actually something the

republic sorry the nationalists like

chiang kai-shek were able to respect and

acknowledge throughout the entirety of

the republic of china's struggle against

the people's republic a civil war that

technically did not end both chiang

kai-shek and mao zeitung recognized

that there is one china

they were merely disagreeing over who

should rule that one china and the

independence movement of taiwan has

never been popular it's always been a

marginal phenomena a phenomena we can

infer was definitely propped up by the

americans chiang kai-shek himself had to

head butt heads with the americans and

engage in

minor diplomatic conflicts with the

americans who are pushing independence

the founding mission of the kuman tang

sorry if i mispronounced it the kmt

was one china the notion that taiwan

would become an independent he faces the

very foundation of taiwan as a so-called

separate country from the people's

republic the founding mission of the

kuman tang was based on the ideals of

sun yat-sen for the unification and

rejuvenation of the china 5000 year long

chinese civilization on the basis of

the ideals of the modern world

now finally the notion that a chinese

invasion of taiwan a chinese invasion of

china in other words would lead to a

refugee crisis assumes that the people

of taiwan the chinese people of taiwan

are willing to fight to defend

the status quo that is now in place

every form of research and study that

has been conducted among the people of

taiwan has shown that they are not

willing to take up arms they are not

willing to have any bloodshed

to prevent unification with china so

there's no impetus for the people of

taiwan to

why would there be refugees when there

would be no conflict to begin with china

if hypothetically this would happen

would simply come in and finally i want

to make one last point

the notion that taiwan's current

constitution and laws and um

whatever

would be destroyed upon unification

gravely misunderstands the current uh

chinese system the chinese system the

president said by hong kong

is of one country two systems many

different systems can exist under the

sovereignty of one china and china has

expressed the people's republic of china

has expressed its fullest intention to

allow the people of taiwan to maintain

their specific system so long as they

acknowledge there is only one china

i rest my case so the first thing i want

to say so there's a bunch of things that

were wrong there but i'm just going to

start with the indigenous communities

the

indigenous community make up two percent

of the population that is true okay if

we're just talking about people who just

primarily indigenous if we're not

talking about people who are culturally

indigenous or we're talking about

interfaith marriages and the chil we're

just we're just gonna talk about the two

percent they make up two percent of the

population yet sixty percent of the

nation's special elite forces sixty

percent they make it an extremely

disproportionate amount of the nation's

military the military that defends

taiwan the indigenous community which

you say oh they're there many of them

love the idea of chinese invasion or

china coming or any of these things they

vastly

[Music]

when it comes to the military and if you

talk about them being kmt loyalists

that's true a lot of people they know he

wants

stop interrupting me hans okay this

isn't the internet we're in person act

like a civil so what i don't care if

it's not on the internet why do i give a

shit okay calm down guys please anyway

the indigenous community are over

represented in the military because

they're willing to defend taiwan and the

system of governance that has slowly

evolved on across the taiwan strategy

studies show otherwise that's not true

by the way the studies you reference

when it comes to oh but the taiwanese

people would not defend according to the

taipei times two-thirds of the

population of taiwan have said they'd be

willing to pick up arms of defense of

taiwan two-thirds of the population

that's bullshit that's just true that's

one

bullshit i'm just the taipei

taipei times has said two-thirds of the

people of taiwan are willing to take up

arms the taipei times is lying well then

you're lying to me right now that's just

true

well

there's no way for us to independently

verify this right now so anybody can

google it google it everybody at home

the people then google it at home two

thirds look up

actually look up informed studies

this surveys have shown the polling has

shown people in taiwan are not willing

to risk any bloodshed in the midst of a

chinese uh people's republic of china

it's not true two-thirds of the

population you have one you have one

source and multiple sources that you

haven't even okay source one study then

i'm google it at home uh yeah okay so i

have one source you have no source oh

you you brought a fucking binder and i

came empty-handed good luck well that's

your fault yeah i've come prepared well

actually dylan the thing is i don't need

a binder that's the thing i don't need

to take communist work ethic huh yeah

listen

uh the thing is i don't need a binder i

don't need to cite a one study from the

taipei times to the extent of my

familiarity the people of taiwan are not

now it's up to the audience to

independently verify i can i can trust

that i'll uh come out on the right when

it comes to that i'm sure you will okay

so when it comes to the kmt the kmt has

lost the two elections when it comes to

the uh the indigenous supporters

okay i'm talking whether you like it or

not so the kmt this is about a different

point so this is why i can calm down the

kmt when it comes to the independent

struggle and whether independence is

popular have lost it to last two

elections cyan when has won the last two

elections in decent amounts in the

democratic progressive party which is

the party that she's a part of is the

independence party the pro-independence

party and she has stated on multiple

occasions and has been reelected on the

platform of taiwan does not need to

declare independence for we are already

independent she points to the judicial

system she points to the military she

points to the language she points to a

separate history she points to all these

things for justifiable reasons to show

that taiwan is independent and the world

is upholding a facade that it isn't an

independent nation they're pretending

the thing is if i go to taiwan has and i

call the chinese police the mainland

chinese police if i'm getting mugged

they're not gonna show up you know

what's going on the taiwanese in a

region of china it would work the same

exact way you're not going to call the

region in southern china if you're in

northern china what a stupid point

second of all are you really saying that

the chinese government has authority

over the taiwanese government it does it

doesn't have authority in hong kong it

doesn't what it doesn't have authority

in hong kong it doesn't have authority

no it doesn't wait

yeah it does it has an extradition

it's passed into hong kong don't yell at

the us the us sends are your vote

for example in hong kong let's talk

about the two china has agents in hong

kong

two systems he thinks it's so favorable

even though the taiwanese people are

horrified at the notion definitely after

developments in hong kong in hong kong

due to recent legislation that was

passed if you boo the chinese national

anthem you can actually go to prison for

that due to national security

legislation that the chinese government

has put in there their secular laws in

south korea came from and i disagree

with those laws and that came so why are

you blaming the people's republic that's

how you call it

if i go to taiwan and i say fuck taiwan

fuck the government boo the national

anthem they won't arrest me because they

have a dedication to democracy unlike

the mainland government that's only

recently because of liberalization

efforts that came at the expense of

their the status quo with the kmt but

moreover there's a number of points you

weaseled your way out of so i want to i

want to pin your opinion down on those

points so first of all you claimed that

first you made the claim that the

overall majority of the armed forces are

made up by indigenous people that's not

acceptable the special forces the

special forces that's not because

they're pro-independence they have

always been a stronghold of kmt loyalism

and fierce anti-independence sentiment

so the id so use it's a complete

non-point you mentioned the president of

taiwan say that we're already a country

you want to maintain the status quo then

maintain a status quo but try to change

your official name to the republic of

taiwan and see what will happen it is

the republic of china that is the

current status quo she's saying we

basically function already as another

country that's her opinion see what

happens when they try to make that

formal or official and see what the

response is going to be from china if

taiwan attempts to pursue secession from

china china will act swiftly

in response and the u.s can't do a god

damn thing about it uh whether you like

it or not military military planners

disagree with you that's besides the

point we're not they can't do a goddamn

thing about that strategy i'm sure

you're not a military general okay no

matter how many soviet caps you put on

then just wait a few years wait a few we

will wait a few years and we'll see what

happens anyway when it comes to the idea

that the indigenous oh they don't

support an independent taiwan even

though they were at the front and center

of every single independent struggle in

taiwanese history they're at the front

they were the first

against the han chinese who are nineteen

nineteen

first they were the first purge by

there is no kind where there is no

continuity between there's no continuity

between the historical struggles of the

taiwanese indigenous population and the

current taiwanese uh independence

movement which is overwhelmingly

dominated by chinese

because it's 98 of the population but

we're talking about a discipline why in

the military specifically the special

forces so why is there a

disproportionate amount in the special

forces but not a disproportionate amount

in the independence movement and the

independent it is a disproportionate no

there isn't yes it is what percentage of

indigenous people support the

independence exact percentage it's not

it's not two-thirds okay tell me your

percentage it's not fifty percent about

that third tell me it could not be more

than twenty percent do you have any data

for that i'm willing to risk everything

by saying that everything yeah wow

even your soul

okay i'm already doing that by uh

debating you right now oh yeah i'm sure

you are okay so what was the second

point you made there was a second point

besides that

uh

the second point was about the history

of nation states and politics

um okay well that wasn't what was going

on but i'll address that anyway so

even if we were to disregard all

historical basis for taiwan being an

independent nation uh when it comes to

its long struggle of independence let's

just talk about modern history then the

people of taiwan struggled against

chiang kai-shek's white tara and if any

of you don't know what the white terror

is the white tariff was a system of

purges that shin kai shek and his sons

until about 1987 from about 1950. i

forget exactly when it started

purged independence advocates and

opposition to the government they were

scared that this would jeopardize their

ability to reconquer the mainland of

china since most of the independent

struggle didn't really have any interest

in invading the chinese mainland and

reconquering and so they purged them

hundreds of thousands were purged to be

exact and those people struggled for

years until the 1990s when they were

eventually able to actually get a

democracy and that history of struggle

is the history of modern taiwan

struggling against the authoritarian

system government that was in place and

then they were able to institute a

liberal democracy which they have to

this day

do you disagree with the effect of

course i disagree it's not a liberal

democracy the military might of the

kuman tang is the foundation of taiwan

as having any political independence

from the mainland whatsoever it is the

arms taken up by the kmt that has

secured that and it is for the same

reason that is the arms of the special

forces that you're talking about

made up by the pro kmt loyalists i mean

the kmt are the ones who are securing

the political independence in the first

place if these liberals want to go and

not address it and have democracy

their democracy has not secured any not

you're not the liberal democracy you're

talking about has no basis in any

sovereign power okay i don't it has no

basis in any military now

the same power that made taiwan possible

as a separate state in the first place

is something the liberal democrats have

no stronghold in whatsoever so it is

only on the basis of the ideals of the

kmt and the view that there is one china

that has kept taiwan separate from the

mainland in the first place okay you're

floundering but when it comes to can you

address the point that i'm flying you

never addressed my point what's your

point my point was that the modern

history of taiwan when it comes to the

population is a history of struggle

against the authoritarian system that

chen so let me finish please but first

you have to let you i heard what you

said i'm not i heard what you said i'm

not finished

finish go ahead dylan finish i will

finish yeah and you'll be quiet where

really will i be quiet yeah you will be

i'm bond of what

me because i'm talking because it's a

debate this conversation okay okay don't

sit here say you will be quiet well then

be quiet i'm not going to fucking be

quiet

if you tell me to be quiet i won't be

how about that okay you won't be no okay

then yell please yeah so would you

basically say yeah that's okay you can

keep yelling

you can keep fucking yelling

why didn't that democracy movement

extend to the mainland because because

there's

it's a separate territory because

okay calm down yeah that's the only

reason it's a fucking separate territory

in the first place stop swinging out and

calm down okay you're a time waster you

bullshit and waste time you're not

letting me speak you're a fucking time

waster you need to shut the fuck up

jesus christ go ahead say your piece my

god okay

so the history finally for the fifth

time the history of modern taiwan is a

history of struggle against political

authoritarianism particularly chiang

kai-shek okay

chiang kai-shek he did a white terror

against the people of taiwan and they

fought for their freedom and they earned

it through blood and sacrifice against

the government and for the last 30 years

they've held a democracy which through

that democracy and the consent of the

governed they have been able to elect

democracies and politicians represent

their interests and the vast majority of

the people within taiwan support

continuing the status quo and second if

you were to follow the status quo is the

independence when you check polling the

reason why they choose the status quo

currently over independence is purely

because if they were and i agree with

has on this to declare independence

right now

they would be bombed as shit and

millions would die it would be a

disaster that's a terrible thing by the

way that a nation and its people

declaring independence even though it's

already independence

and a bombing and destruction of a

sovereign people with its own identity

culture language that has started and

continues to separately develop what

happens

only

let's talk about that what is the

current evil that the

chinese

yeah okay so the difference between the

confederacy and when you talk about this

the evil is this from the chinese

perspective it is cutting off a piece of

china

and basically uh submitting it to

foreigners china has endured the century

of humiliation it remembers the century

of humiliation china will never submit

to the dominance of anglo-saxon

imperialists and it will uh refuse this

on bond

uh of war

so if taiwan were to commit indepe

so-called independence from china it

would become a satellite state of the

americans china is not going to tolerate

a piece of its territory being cut off

if people try to take china's territory

they're going to be met with a swift

response it's interesting that i say

people when the people were talking

about are the people who live there

those are the people who would want it

to be a sovereign nation it's not the

americans coming in and they don't

just shut the fuck up please they don't

you gotta let me speak okay

my god fucking jesus okay so the people

there

overwhelmingly and there's no data you

could provide that that rejects this do

not want to be part of the mainland

government under any circumstances only

six percent only six percent of the

population actually want reunification

eventually or immediately with the

mainland government only six percent

that means

they're the data you're going to cite i

don't know what it's for yeah there's a

beijing time yeah yeah why should i

trust the taipei times but not the

beijing times okay tell me what's wrong

with the type 8 times i can tell you

about the state funding that comes from

for certain news publications that

publish the data there's no difference

so my story

is i'm just talking about the funding

that's the difference okay what's the

funding difference taipei times isn't

funded by the taiwanese government oh

it's just funded by private corporations

that uh prop up the government okay so

there's no soul that i could talk back

first of all there's two points because

you weasel the way out of the first one

then i'm gonna address the second one

the first point is simply this you're

talking you're you're giving this uh

this sob story about the history of

democratic struggle within taiwan all of

that still rests upon the foundational

bedrock of true sovereignty sovereignty

in the true hobbsian carl schmidt sense

of sovereignty as in being able to

enforce a state of exception which is

the kmt's military might they have not

changed this foundation and the kmt is

over has founded its founding mission

was based on one china now the second

thing we're talking about is whether

which sources are um

sorry or sorry with the polling data

polls have shown that the majority of it

is true people in taiwan want to

maintain the status quo but as far as

the taiwanese people whether they want

to along the road eventually become

independent or along the road want to

join with um

with china both of these are smaller

than the percentage who say they either

don't care or

they would not care either way so what

you're saying is practically wrong both

of these people eventually independence

or eventually unification both are a

small minority of uh taiwan's uh

population okay so the first thing is on

this this hobbesian

nerd shit okay so i don't care about any

of that i'm going to be completely

honest but i can't you're not educated

okay elitist just like you don't care

about china's history okay i'd shut the

fuck up okay so the thing is i can care

about one thing and one thing only here

and that's the consent of the governed

and as a patriotic that's based on

philosophy

you don't want to talk about hobbs or

carl schmidt and don't talk about

abstract philosophical principles oh my

god like the consensus

i can test your foundational political

philosophy

you're trying to impose a stakeholder if

you don't care then don't fucking debate

well then don't simplify if you don't

want to talk to me if you don't think of

this if you want to run from the other

side of the room walk away you can walk

out because i'm talking about what i

want to talk about it's my turn i don't

care i don't care

i don't care i don't care then walk out

my god you yell a lot for a guy who's

dodging a boxing match

i'm dodging the fucking boxing yeah yeah

you are really so you want me to

dedicate six months of my time if you

spend some my streaming career to train

you fucking boxing wait wait you bosh in

substance he didn't accept no i didn't

see him

i did not no no fucking count oh really

really look at this fucking liar this

fucking liar going on record you're

saying i challenge boss yes you did you

saw my pussy for now hey no i didn't yes

first of all someone came in my fucking

chat and asked me

someone came my chat and asked me would

you fight voz for a prize money of fifty

thousand dollars or eighty thousand fuck

yeah i would then you talk

that's what i that would cover all of

the streaming all of the fucking yearly

gods i could sacrifice my streaming

career to fucking do that so of course

i'm gonna accept that furthermore you're

a fucking nobody and bosch has some

clout so there's something there to gain

from that i'm bigger than you

you're bigger than boss i'm bigger than

you how long have you been in this scene

you got all your fucking clocks from the

november election i'm rapidly rising

average 600 views i see your viewership

when i'm live you don't have more

fucking views than me i already fucking

outpaced you dylan and i've been here uh

less time than you have what happened to

the infrared showdown

what happened to the showdown is that i

came to l.a out of business one month oh

yeah oh yeah i went to l.a i went to la

for a month i went to la for a month and

got covered that's gonna be so manly

online to be such a coward how am i

coward your coward because you go out

like you're a big strong i am you wanna

fucking test me outside do you really

gonna threaten me right now i'm not i'm

saying you wanna you wanna ask from a

big man then go ahead and test me

outside you really want to go outside

and fight me right now you can test me

you're free to test my man you don't

you're free to test my manhood dylan i

use it don't assume that a fucking

boxing match with rules

don't assume a fucking boxing match with

rules is gonna be the same as the street

fighter

they all got went away okay the problem

is infrared you asked me oh here's all

the conditions you say first we're gonna

okay it's michigan it's in detroit it's

gonna be at this gym it's gonna be 10

rounds and i meet every single one of

the things you asked me but i have a box

no it's not and then you asked me well i

know how to defend the dna and now

you're gonna have power yes go get them

i have the yeah i challenge you do you

challenge everyone i have the dna

can we go back to the topic i have the

dnx

so here's what happened

actually here's what happened

it was 3 a.m

my time in l.a this psychopath clipping

loser he's up at 6 00 am all night he's

seething about me thinking about me i

was banned on twitch i forgot who this

fucking guy was he dms me he goes what a

weirdo he goes look at this

uh i'm scrolling to it he says let's

have a boxing match out of who i'm i'm

i'm with my boy jackson on his roof

smoking a cigar i get this fucking dm

let's have a boxing match it'll be fun

and then three yeah then i said then i

said okay

need one month minimum for training and

promotion so you agree that's reasonable

you agree you're right you're right

but nobody told me you had experience

wait so the problem is you

listen listen hold on hold on if you

don't recognize that boxing is about

experience you're a fucking idiot boxing

is all about experience that works it's

not a street fight it's not a fucking

street fight it's not something like

that it's not just something you do mma

then mma is not a street fight either so

literally you're just saying let's go

into an alleyway and fight would you

know i if you want no no i'm saying if

you want to test my manhood that's on

you well i just think you're a coward

and you backed out of it because then

you learn to know how to defend myself

why are you worth it to me because you

travel around you challenge all these

people do what you challenged

for example you're you said you go to

argentina yeah and i say i'll go to your

city because you're just because you're

confused yeah yeah yeah because i was

willing to go there for him because i

hate the guy that much uh-huh yeah and

you accept my boss so it's worth it

you somehow it's worth it you dodged it

because you're excited let's continue

you're not a reason

you just you're just saying go ahead go

ahead go ahead you can keep talking

about it you look like a fat fucker

he kept asking me 21 questions like

what's your weight class where do you

want to have it how many rounds do you

want to have schedule and i was just

responding to you i didn't impose all

these fucking conditions on you

i made sure that all that they did you

said 10 rounds and i say hey that's

ridiculous because you don't know

anything and then and then you're like

no we have to do 10 rounds i'll make

sure no what you said is that anything

about it you said a gym would not allow

ten right now of course i said i could

find i said i could pan around i said i

know of the gyms in detroit that will

tolerate 10 rounds and i'll get that i

didn't force the condition

i didn't force any conditions if you had

a problem with that you could have said

so and i agree okay i think where we've

gotten with this is there may be a

boxing match in the future

[Applause]

with that being said now you guys had

loved a little bit about the

will of the people the history of china

let's wrap it up for the next few

minutes closing that one if we could

avoid the boxing discussion

and so we'll do that and open it up to

questions and answers at that point so

yeah taiwan is not a country the

overwhelming majority of sovereign

countries in the world if not almost

pretty much all of them don't recognize

it as one they recognize it as a vague

breakaway province that's still

struggling with the the central

government of china

the country of taiwan supposed country

of taiwan the official government is

called the republic of china there has

never been a significant dispute as to

whether there is one china or not this

issue has been forced by the americans

and it's as simple as that both the kmt

which founded taiwan as a separate

political territory and the communist

party of china

both have always agreed there is only

one china the pro-independence movement

has never actually changed the

foundation of uh taiwan as being based

in the foundational ideals of sun

yat-sen which are also shared by the

communist party of china

okay so the first thing about

international recognition that needs to

be noted here is international

recognition matters not at all in my

opinion when it comes to designating

whether a nation is a nation or not a

nation because if that's the case then

the mainland was not a country until

what 1971 when it was admitted to the

united nations or was it a country when

the vast majority when the majority of

nations finally tipped from taiwan to

china mainland china that is when it

comes to recognizing what country is it

isn't the actual china because if that's

the case then what we're saying is that

the mainland government wasn't a country

until 1971 but 1970 it totally wasn't a

country even though it had all the

trappings of the country international

recognition doesn't matter as much to me

when it comes to this definitely when it

comes to the idea of like well what

about these superpowers that recognize

well america doesn't recognize it that

doesn't matter to me it doesn't matter

to me at all if every nation in the

world tomorrow said we no longer

recognize the united states and as a

nation that doesn't mean the united

states is no longer a nation-state it

has all the trappings of a nation-state

and when you look at taiwan it has its

own language it has its own separate

history it has its language

yes you don't know about

seventy percent taiwanese language you

don't know that how is it a separate

language they speak consciousness

okay you don't know what you're talking

about anyway there's dialects of han

chinese it's my outro it's my outro okay

so fucking stupid yeah you are you're

right okay so the thing is

they have all the trappings of a modern

state

they've struggled for to build a

separate system of governance a

democracy within taiwan against an

authoritarian system

they've seen the offer from haaz and his

buddies the two cunt one country two

systems they saw it play out in hong

kong

and the support for independence

skyrocketed after seeing the result of

that because they don't want that for

their future and let's say that

everything every single thing has said

about the history of taiwan is

completely true

the united states did not exist until

1776. nations can be built with complex

cultures and history in the blink of an

eye through revolution and civil

geopolitical strife and so what i'm

saying here is since they developed

their own culture they've the taiwanese

identity is a distinct identity now and

if you pull the people on taiwan they

identify as taiwanese majority not

chinese some identify as both they will

say that they have their own system of

governance they have their own judicial

system they have their own everything

saying it is not an independent country

is plain pretend which i know communists

like to do a lot so that'll be that all

right well thank you both for that

interesting conversation lively

before we open it up for question and

answer i will say please if you have a

question

not dealing with the boxing match feel

free to come forward

if it's dealing with the boxing match

we'll handle those at the end so uh if

you'll just stand in the middle you

don't have to be on one side or the

other so

other than the other side will come up a

uh questions for infrared

do you believe that it's morally right

for taiwan to be independent

no

and why

uh

i don't think the uh

people have a right to arbitrarily

secede

simply based on uh

it's a betrayal of china to china's

enemies so i'm against this kind of

betrayal simple as that can i get

counterfeit they could say the same

thing about america in 1776 but our

rebellion was moral because we knew that

the system of government that the king

had was fundamentally wrong because we

wanted it it has nothing to do with the

material taxation without representation

nothing to do with the material factors

taxation without representation is wrong

and as a patriot as you describe

yourself you should know that

the taiwan system would be preserved

under one country two systems

in hong kong in hong kong they passed an

extradition bill and there was a western

fueled unrest and chaos

in order to restore law and order the

police of hong kong had to crack down on

what happened during what happened

during the riots of black lives matter

and january 6 was this all an

infringement upon the rights of the

american people

that the police cracked down on this was

unrest was it in refrigeration and many

times yes actually police brutality is a

major issue in this country yes but does

that represent does it represent the

same level of oppression look you told

me to stop overspending yeah

so let's go ahead to the next question

so i haven't had much time to formulate

this question but it's something like uh

and i think for infrared first but i'd

like both opinion from both is um

what

is there actually going to be a benefit

to say china as a whole or maybe if you

want to say the world as a whole for

china to kind of completely take over

taiwan i feel like the people of taiwan

kind of like hong kong when their rules

start coming into play the taiwanese

gonna be like wait a minute that's more

kind of oppressive than we're used to

we're used to these more free more

freedoms there's gonna be a lot of very

under a whole

it's an island nation isn't it taiwanese

as a whole island nation of very unhappy

people with new oppressive laws being

put upon them and i don't know how like

who's happy about i feel like the

chinese are going to do it's going to be

messy for them it's going to be messy

for the time why do it at all where's

what's the best so um

i have to preface this in the first

place it's not about fucking business

what china does

uh to its own territory because we are

not china we're a separate country and

we have to mind our own business and

take care of our own people so it's the

first thing that's most important but

secondly

in case it matters china has no

intention of forcing laws or forcing its

system on a people that don't want it

what china is interested in and

conserving is its geopolitical and

territorial sovereignty china does not

want foreigners to meddle in its affairs

and attempt to seize hegemony over uh

china's sovereignty and china's

territory and so on and so on china

wants to protect itself from people who

have a history of express military

hostility antagonism toward china simply

for being an independent rising power

that is disrupting the american uh

world order of hegemony so china's first

and foremost interest is preserving

sovereignty its interest is not imposing

an ideology or system

which is not of any real importance

china knows that it can't impose a

system on a people that don't want it so

that's why the one country two systems

was even uh implemented in the first

place

so when it comes to the idea that it's

not really our issue

we have had a historical relationship

with the taiwanese government that goes

past multiple administrations a refugee

crisis across from the taiwan strait

would be a disaster not only for the

world but especially the united states

considering that taiwanese community is

quite large in california i'm pretty

sure a lot of them would like to take

their family members because they

wouldn't want to be either politically

persecuted or blown up since again if

you were to exclude the mountainous

terrain taiwan would be the number one

most dense country in the world with a

population of 25 million to put that in

perspective syria has a population of 20

had a population of 20 million before

the civil war and was the 67th most

dense country in the world and so when

we talk about what would be a largely

air campaign in taiwan that would be a

humanitarian disaster creates a massive

refugee crisis this doesn't even need to

talk about our trade relationship with

taiwan our interest there or

semiconductors with 50 of the world

semiconductors being produced by the

tsmc which of course is based in taiwan

which right now with supply line

shortages

that being bombed as shit or us not

having access to that would also be a

massive issue for the united states when

it comes to the idea it's not our

business also china's extremely

hypocritical when it comes to this point

because it says that well this is a

civil war and

has correctly technically states that it

is technically a historical ongoing

civil war the mainland

not even in the same way that it is in

korea though because there's tourism

across state across lines there's

there's workers from taiwan working

within there the tourism industry is

gigantic they trade over like 200

billion dollars and i think in the last

20 or 30 years alone so obviously a

civil war where you're trading tourism

it doesn't really sound like a very

bloody civil war that's currently going

on there has been violence in 75 years

but let's say let's pretend that it's a

civil war for a moment right that it's

not just you know on paper

in myanmar right now there is what is if

you would be honest a civil war

one-third of the country occurred in the

cernan alice one-third of the country

according to cernan analyst is

controlled by rebel forces that are

fighting against the military

dictatorship that overthrew the

democratically elective government of

aung san soon this is irrelevant let me

finish chinese involvement in the civil

war what does that evolve let me finish

military intervention or arms deals

so

they have sent aid to the military

government that's exactly they have sold

weapons to the military government which

they then used to not only ethically

cleanse minorities in the country but

put down rebellions and what is our

involvement when it comes to taiwan

through the taiwan relations act for

example much worse mostly

sending them weapons through trade deals

the exact same thing they're doing with

their involvement in an active ongoing

civil war where people are dying right

now if they're allowed to do something

troops are in taiwan us troops are in

taiwan not officially but they are and

what about do you want to talk about

they are secretly and covertly they are

secretly and convert these training

operations well maybe because yeah

independent nation they're allowed to

have that okay well china you're saying

china's two-faced for selling arms and

giving aid to because they're made

because they because what they do but it

has friendly relationships government

they have yeah and an ongoing civil war

they're taking sides also the status quo

in that country is the government it's

the government that's military you're

telling me the military

china through democracy

china works china worked with the shah

of iran and then it worked with the

ayatollahs china works with whoever is

in power and it doesn't care about the

internal political uh then then america

just works with what's in power in

taipei no it doesn't because america

because america has a specific agenda to

meddle in china's affairs and promote

independence of china i know the chinese

are meddling in these they don't china

is very pragmatic

what about with the china factories and

the only time the chinese got interested

it was like never mind we really need to

stop was when their factories getting

burned down they don't care that their

guns are being used to mow down probably

yeah they can china care they will help

them we could learn from china china

help mow down china china cares about

china america should care about america

so we should sell more weapons to saudi

arabia then because it's very profitable

all right i think that's good stuff

right there i believe you had the next

question sir

so this is for both of you and it's kind

of a broader question we touched on it a

bit but i want to ask directly kind of

what justifies sovereignty for a

government what what legitimizes the

government what kind of factors go into

whether we should support government

this is an issue not just in taiwan but

also across the world like in ukraine

and israel and palestine so this this is

a uh philosophical question

and the german theorist carl schmidt

does not define sovereignty based on

some kind of external measurement

sovereignty is in short as hobbs pointed

out based on material realities

sovereignty is based on a monopoly on

violence it's based on force it's based

on might it's not based on some

independent

source verifying the sovereignty now you

could talk about other countries

recognizing your sovereignty which is an

important thing but sovereignty is based

in material not moral

or ethical realities

yeah and the material reality is that

taiwan's government is what controls

the island of taiwan that's mature and

let them try and recognize it as a

nation

let them try and declare independence

and see what happens say wait so if it

walks like a horse talks like a horse

and it's everything like a horse but it

doesn't say i'm a horse is it or is it

not a horse it's not a horse yet because

it's not allowed to have us troops on

its soil officially so you're so if i

said so if everybody in here said this

isn't a phone would you be like oh i

guess taiwan is literally restricted

from doing things a sovereign nation

could do officially because the chinese

government has tried to do that on the

international stage but by the

way can't have troops on its soil you

cannot have u.s troops

so what you're saying is that the

chinese government the mainland

government in 1916 it doesn't was like a

horse it doesn't walk like what is the

chinese horse can have troops on its oil

officially i don't know

i don't know if any horse that has

troops on its soil but what i will say

if that's what you're saying then you

would have to recognize that in 1960 to

make the government in the mainland

china was not a legitimate nation

because it did not have large-scale

international recognition or a seat at

the united nations

the people's republic of china was not a

nation because it didn't have

international recognition yeah

well that was that didn't reflect the

material reality which the world

eventually woke up and adjusted to that

the overwhelming majority of the chinese

people are under the sovereignty of the

communist party so eventually they woke

up to that reality and is that going to

happen with taiwan international

recognition wait wait

wait keep waiting for that to happen for

taiwan

you mentioned that china doesn't like to

impose things on people that they don't

want it something like that

um except the uyghurs taiwan hong kong

they're building islands where does

china's border actually end because you

mentioned the early historical qing

borders that were carved up by the

british and other uh colonialists but as

far as the oyo situation is concerned

xinjiang has been part of china for

hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of

years so that is the people who have

already been under the system and

sovereignty of the communist party for a

very very long time so my point is

they're not going to go to another

territory and impose their system

the voyagers have already been living

under the system now if you don't like

the details of how that system has been

executed so far it's a separate question

but they have already been living under

the system

why would you trust the colonialists to

draw up the borders because the

scarborough shoal for example which

china claims is mostly used by filipino

fishermen and is claimed by the

philippines in international courts

which china represents those

international reports are illegitimate

because i didn't interrupt the

territories

between china in

has the philippines

in a bilateral matter it is not under

the jurisdiction of the international

and you want to know why

in that bilateral matter they lost and

then they disrupted they didn't yeah

they did lose they came to an agreement

with the philippines the philippines

didn't like it so they ran to the u.n

and then the u1 said what it doesn't

matter in china

it doesn't matter because you wouldn't

have no sovereign plan the u.n the u.n

has no sovereignty

the u.n has no sovereignty to execute

its authority over bilateral legislation

so u.n recognition on by the u.n when it

comes to taiwan no that matters because

it's not a unilateral matter

it is a bilateral matter between the

philippines and china which was

arbitrated between

and then real quick china i'll let you

some bad then you like the last word but

again getting back to the whole

recognition thing so it sounds like we

could have a follow-on here but

before we go to the next question go

ahead the people in xinjiang do not like

being monitored in every aspect of their

life and they are they don't even know

your own sources admit it's not true

anymore

let them finish you'll have something

you're saying that my sources say that

there have not been an

extreme increase in the level of

moderation no it's true they're not

claiming it's all it's all done not even

letting me you didn't even let me talk

jesus okay

so

in xinjiang these are things that are

undisputable fact even according to the

chinese government when it comes to the

monitoring of street cameras and the

everyday life of uyghurs the chinese

government has heavily ramped up

monitoring them this has been claimed

that this is needed to do for

anti-terrorism measures but that does

not mean it's been recepted accepted

with open arms by the local population

another thing is the banning of certain

religious uh i would say religious

activities now specifically are you up

to date on your sources because they're

now saying all that's they're not saying

they know they're not saying they've

eased up they're not they're not saying

what i'm yes they have now let me finish

they said they've

is much newer than anglo-saxon

liberalism from the 16th century

okay we're getting off topic in there so

next question

so uh my question is to uh to infrared

here and it seems like your entire

moralistic world view is based on might

makes right and material conditions it's

i'm a materialist it's not about

michael's right okay but you keep making

you keep bringing up the fact that uh

the

the reason that china has the southern

authority that it does is because it has

a monopoly on power it's able to exert

its control over people etc etc which is

a might makes right argument so if the

material conditions are what

basically says what exists and might

makes right then wouldn't it be uh

in america's best interest to go

imperialistic again and take over taiwan

in response to china since that's what

china

wants to do there is a country that has

tried this

i understand the point of well i just

want to make it sure for the rest of you

okay

so uh the

white house china has been doing with

other countries that border it's the

border rights such as tibet uh such as

vietnam the 60s and her 70s or rather

such as uh like dylan myanmar or burma

so so okay so tibet has never bordered

china it's always been a part of china

now in regards to other border disputes

china has always settled these matters

not only in a way that's fair but in a

way that overwhelmingly benefits the

countries it's negotiating with china

seated like 80 percent of its territory

in one of its borders with uh

afghanistan for example right so when

china gets to the books and say we have

to settle this territorial dispute china

is very generous with negotiations and

has proven so now regarding myanmar and

vietnam there was a border dispute with

vietnam in the 70s

but that's what it was it was a border

dispute it wasn't some kind of

arbitrary imperialist encroachment it

was a dispute about territory that could

not be solved diplomatically finally as

to the question of mike makes right you

can say why doesn't america just use its

might to invade the entire world there's

a country that has tried the precedent

of just simply hey we can do it let's do

it it was the german the nazi germans

they tried this in world war ii

it was proven that this is not a path uh

countries and states can take just to

completely circumvent the customs and

norms which are a material reality as

well

um that are in place because when you

declare war against the entire world

you're going to have a world war and

you're going to have the world to unite

against you

so america can try this it just wouldn't

be very wise

so just a follow up on that i'm just

specifically talking about taiwan here

yeah within

it would not be good for america within

regards to taiwan the taiwanese people

seem to be as dylan is saying uh against

china taking back part of it if america

isn't it america's interest as long as

well as the taiwanese interests to join

forces to provide why is it in our

interests

because of things like dylan said with

the chip manufacturing the uh the

territory there will be no alteration to

the ship manufacturing under chinese uh

but we have examples china's already

replicating taiwan's chip industry at

home anyway well that but that gives

more power to china

having it more because then we would

want our own our own ability to take in

ships from a separate country we already

can do that we don't need to invade

taiwan to do that

you don't need to understand the world

invade if america wants to replicate the

chips that taiwan produces it can do so

in the same way that china by trading

and recognizing them as a sovereign

nation no because china doesn't do that

and yet it's able to make its own

domestic chips this is a dead-end

argument let me ask you about something

because you said that they always

resolve these conflicts uh like fairly

now if you said most of the time maybe

it would be easier but the scarborough

shoal was very self-evident where they

took their ships they put them on the

scoreboard shoal then told the filipinos

you want to fish here this is what's

been historically your fishing territory

you

gotta just come to the table and agree

with us on all this stuff then the

filipinos come to the table after the

united nations says hey you know you're

a member state and you agreed to follow

these rules china what about all this

kind of just disregarded them the

international organization which you use

as a justification to say what is it

isn't a nation state due to that

internet

yes yes you did international

recognition was part of your argument i

said it's a factor it's not determining

the united nations is definitely

considered the united nations is not the

determining factor

the international community is concerned

one of the determining factors on the

internet china has contested u.n is part

of the internet the china has contested

the jurisdiction of the u.n in that case

in that uh hearing because the city

because it was settled bilaterally and

if you want to know if the china act

unjustly china is simply returning to

the status quo that existed before the

british arbitrarily came with their guns

and their opium to carve up what if

that's what if the

alongside alongside the qing empire

alongside the rest of the european union

what if the qing empire was you know an

empire and therefore a lot of the

territory it invaded it shouldn't

actually have had control of i've

actually debated with you about this

you're so historically illiterate that

you don't understand the structure of

pre-modern empires and the manner by

which they went about territorial

conquest annexation assimilation

is entirely different from european

colonialism if you don't understand that

you are

simply historically illiterate with that

we're coming up against your time block

here so did you have a question yes uh

one final question so go ahead and if

you stand between the camera set so that

mike's can pick it up

yeah

my question is well for both of you and

you know america

we're known for having really chat

energy from separating from britain

so

why not respect the chat energy of the

taiwanese

and

let them separate from china why why why

why try to stick up for the guy who lost

because the circumstances are entirely

different between the

material conditions that gave rise to

the american independence and the

so-called independence movement within

taiwan now

china is a 5 000 year long civilization

united states broke with the uk which

colonized the new world very recently

and because the people of uh america

became indigenized and nationally

culturally civilizationally different

from the people in the united kingdom

after centuries and centuries of

indigenization this process has not

occurred whatsoever in taiwan in taiwan

taiwanese people and the chinese people

are the same people they engage in trade

marriage

personal relations cultural exchange the

same movies and tv they watch the same

music they listen to they're the same

exact people

who are under the uh different

uh ideological governments

the time of these people disagree with

them they identify culturally now more

as taiwanese all the polling data shows

that uh also the reason why they don't

like the chat taiwanese is because

they're swinging out

thank you

and with that i'd like to thank both of

you for making this more lively

stay tuned for further information on

the boxing match

appreciate everybody's uh professional

questions

actually