KANYE 2036 DEBATE W RED CHARLOTTE [2021-09-04]

[Music]

tell me if you know someone that needs

been through a lot of things

tell me if you know someone that needs

sitting by myself i'm just thinking

about all i've been through i wish i was

dreaming man it's hard to be an angel

when you're surrounded by demons i watch

so many people leave i see em changed by

the season that's mama's seasoning god

got you the devil's watching he just

peeking in i know i made a promise that

i never let the reaper in but lately

i've been losing all my deepest friends

and lately i've been swimming on the

deepest end

it's just drugs it ain't no hugs and

ain't no love there you've been down so

much you don't even know what's upstairs

suicidal thoughts got you wondering

what's up there and why they introduce a

party they say it's up there too many

pills so much post so much pain too many

emotions and everything that you do good

just go unnoticed

visions of my cousin in the sail really

scarred me moving to the hood was like

signing up for the army cause they been

killing

watching barney you want dreams to come

true but i had nightmares cause if that

come to life then i might not be right

here been in the dark so long don't know

what the light here but i'm just

reaching for the stars like buzz

lightyear and now i'm light years ahead

of those nightmares i dated those night

tears when a night clears

and if i talk to christ can i bring my

mother back to life and if i die tonight

will i see you in the afterlife but back

to reality with everything is a tragedy

you better have a strategy or you could

be a statistic little boy guys he just

wanted a mystic and mama steady

[Applause]

we can't afford it so she decides to

move forward baby shower time father

didn't show up now she just feeling

nauseous like she finna throw up the

water flows down the legs yeah it's

finna go up

a year that went by a daughter just

turned one and she's still depending on

her mom

big brother in the streets he went and

bought him a gun he want revenge cause

the pain feeling numb

and her mom's still doing drugs cause

that's the only time she feel loved is

it real love do the scars really heal up

from all the pain i've been built up but

they don't feel us

holy [ __ ] vermillion with the ten thank

you so much man appreciate you so much

thank you

guys we're going back to normal

early streams

we're going we're getting back to normal

he said go ahead take my life i've seen

everything but christ the big bro just

back down and all you seen was the light

get him back on schedule

in the name of the true and living god

the benevolent the merciful thank you

for bringing me up the rough side of the

mountain like her through every knee

wild and every tongue confessed and paid

homage to the monk who visit rob childs

like the loneliest dead for monica it's

jay elect anton dronica coming through

your monitor back from the great neander

the son of man and the son of donda i

never rolled the chicks of the r6 of the

honda but i threw my ducati through

north america like wakanda earthquakes

are spiking

bars is like the pyramid temples

apocalypse and sure as the doj confirmed

ezekiel's will i could change the world

i got cool but two pieces of steel my

sword on my microphone i swore to the

chrysler stone but were you great they

wanna say you took a l

the fight here fight here for what

seemed like light years my rugged cross

and thorny crown squeeze out christ

tears 30 pieces of silver clout my peer

priced here it's a war outside it's a

wild side it's like the last days of

sodom and gomorrah

tell me if you know someone

[Music]

tell me if you know someone that needs

it

[Music]

been through a lot of things

tell me if

[Music]

first and foremost i want to thank you

for taking the fight for my father to

the oval office you might not have been

the only one that could have did that

but you were the one

that did do that

and with your assistance we can continue

to let the world take part in this fight

you know to me it kind of feels like

me my mother

my brothers and my kids have all been

incarcerated through this journey

and we haven't even been to jail

we've been looked at

and treated as criminals for being a

part of this family my father's truth

and the reality that he raised me in is

that he wanted to make a change in his

community

because the conditions in this

capitalist society is what made him and

it's what made the children of the day

after 25 years of being locked down 23-1

my father has not called any shots from

one of the most secure and segregated

prisons in the world and will not once

release call any shots for the gates of

disciples if my father's intentions were

to lead us to death destruction into the

hell that he has had to live in for the

past

holy [ __ ] thank you so much xgl

thank you man appreciate you so

much i didn't stay on this journey this

long for that

all my life

man i've been waiting for my father to

come home

they told me thank you mercurial

arteries

he'll be home

then they told me

when i graduate from high school

he'll be home

i went away to morris brown

i graduated and he still ain't home

now i'm a dope and my daughter went away

to college and graduated

he's still not home

now even more than that

my son

he graduated eighth grade

and we still waiting

matter of fact he has hugged kissed or

touched any of his grandchildren and

they haven't been able to touch their

grandfather even though

it is not seen that way for some of us

but for many of us

larry hoover is a beacon of hope for his

community who deserves to breathe free

here

freed my father

mr larry who was seen

[Music]

everyone's got to make

[Music]

you know how i usually take sundays off

thank you bomb soldier no more

you know i usually take sundays off

i'm not taking sunday off

you know we with you

that level make devils pray now hold up

no peace hold up please don't call

police yeah dude

so let me tell you what happened i'm

gonna give you some a breakdown of what

happened to me

i took

edibles

to reset my sleep schedule right

[Music]

and i quickly tuned into zurka's stream

and there's some guy named thick oogie

talking [ __ ] about me

so i'm like okay let's get in vc

but i gotta go to bed soon it's like

four or five am now when i reset my

schedule but now i can't go to bed

because he said oh you ran away you ran

away

so i we might we might watch some of it

by the way the debate's gonna be 7 30

p.m

but she just messaged me but

um so

yeah so um

was i saying

[Music]

damn i need a haircut look at this it's

so nasty

so i was i was thinking right can you

hear me in my head

[Music]

hold on let me just change this [ __ ]

i don't like this song

i don't like this song at all the [ __ ]

is this

you know you guys can i say something

can i say some [ __ ] i [ __ ] hate life

of pablo i hate life of pablo

i hate life of pablo so much i think it

sucks

i've never even listened to kids feel go

see oh that's his yeah i hate life of

pablo dude i just [ __ ] hate it

um and then jesus is king is okay but

the and ye is weird i don't even know

what that one is

life of pablo sucks i hate it i hate

life of pablo

um

jesus is good

uh my favorite is graduation and

beautiful dark twisted fantasy

but let's put some graduation this is

probably the best one

so anyway

i get on i get uh i'm thinking this

guy's like a super aggressive reuted out

type of guy

that's what i was told

[Music]

and i get on stream with this guy he

gets on vc and he's literally the most

passive aggressive

like smug he

thank you see dax

this dude is like

he's like

the [ __ ] bread tubers i've debated

you know

he's extremely beta

just extremely beta

you know

and well i learned more about him let me

tell you something

because he said some [ __ ] later

that i saw him

um

dude guys so this guy is always obsessed

with calling me a virgin he just

he keeps calling me a virgin right

and i didn't understand why until i

learned more about him

so this dude

goes into e girls chats

and he sends them

jewelry

to get their attention

okay

and then

he sends them jewelry and he sends them

money to get their attention

right i don't have to spend any money i

get to talk to them for free so that's

the first rage that's the first kind of

virgin rage he's got against me right

and then the second thing

that i learned is that he's in a long

distance

relationship

with a girl from ukraine

okay and he lives in australia

and then we learn

that

actually it's an open relationship so

she's out here piping other men

she's out here hitting other men

they

thank you so much your biggest fan love

you so much

anyway he so he's so i talk a lot about

the shame that comes with cucking i

always talk like it's one of the most

shameful things that can happen to you

is being cuck another man piping your

girl right and that's what's getting to

this guy because his girl in ukraine he

knows she's getting piped he knows in

deep inside she's getting piped

and he's talking about virgin this

virgin that he's not

he's not even piping this girl he's not

piping nothing i genuinely think this

guy gets zero [ __ ] and he the

difference with him and me right is yeah

i haven't gotten a [ __ ] in a few years

or whatever but that's just because i

haven't tried i'm not you know in egos

chats and i'm not you know talking to

people i i ignore people right

i swerve people

this dude tries so hard to get female

attention

and gets nothing

you know

and

apparently he makes money or whatever

but

the thing is money alone is not gonna

get you [ __ ] i i there's dudes that

have money they got zero games zero

confidence

zero anything and they don't get [ __ ]

so now i just wanna i always wanna

understand why do people hate me right

and now i crack the code and i'm just

fine with it now like i crack the code

this dude i represent everything he

hates in life

i am absolutely everything he has to

hate in life

because you know in ukraine some people

say i look ukrainian i've i've gotten

that some people say i look ukrainian so

the dudes this girl is piping he

probably saw

her boyfriend her real life boyfriend he

probably looks like me he probably looks

like me you know there

some people say i look ukrainian

and i look slavic and it would make

sense

that the girl the guy you know

it makes so much sense

but

so anyway i was so pissed

because

i stayed up arguing with that guy till 7

30 a.m so why did i even take those

[ __ ] edibles so i i didn't really

reset my sleep schedule but

it's okay because i could still stream

early

but

[Music]

i was thinking about a lot of things to

get dude yesterday was suck yesterday

was such a horrible day

yesterday i woke up at like

5 p.m

and i

didn't get any sleep i went to the gym

and it was being occupied so i was

waiting

and then

i was

i i like i couldn't

work out

because i had too much on my in my mind

on my head

[Music]

you guys i've had barely any time to

myself

like i might stream little amount of

time

but i go on circa's show for like arzoka

zurka stream for like

eight hours a day you know

on top of my streams

so i was just thinking

thank you rockstar so yesterday i just

decided like you know what i'm just

gonna skip the stream today because

i got too much of my mind you know

and when i say too much on my mind

um

i'm talking about

philosophical type [ __ ] you know

like

talking about [ __ ] like that

i almost envy a lot of you guys

it's almost as if zerka is sabotaging

you

no he's not

he's not what do you mean like

no i'm benefiting a lot from zerko

i'm benefiting a ton

yeah that's stupid as hell

no dude

yeah i mean it's not just the views

either

it's that community you know where

here's the thing about twitch you guys

have to understand

and guys i know what i'm doing

everything i do for a reason right

yeah

but

let me tell you how it works guys twitch

is all about communities not just your

own community it's about a pool

it's about a shared pool of viewers

that's all twitch is about okay

that's how you that's how anything it's

not just how you grow

that's how you

have an identity on twitch that's how

you form an identity

so me

people see me as the guy on the circle

royale right

and people see

the raj show cast people as the people

who are on the raj show

so that's how it works

have you ever nutted so hard it reached

your lips

actually

actually

no the most disgusting thing that's ever

happened to me was i was in the shower

and it reached like my stomach and chest

and that freaked me out so [ __ ] much

it traumatized me

[Music]

yeah it reached like my

my stomach and my yeah

but yeah

a lot of you that you know that's why

honestly

i don't i don't go to y'all houses and

[ __ ] i don't go to a bros house because

i know how nasty most of you are

most of you guys

first of all you just

thank you allen you just jack off raw

and you just like you'll come on the

[ __ ] wall or on the [ __ ]

floor and you don't you just don't give

a [ __ ] and you leave it there do you

even clean it up

y'all don't even control where that [ __ ]

goes

hakim and the two are beefing right now

are they actually debating

[Music]

no [ __ ] way

dude let let it two do his thing

let me see dude he's doing pretty good

i remember he used to get one views he's

see let me tell you something

at two is the definition of a non-leech

okay

ed two is the definition of a

actual authentic content creator who's

gonna grow his [ __ ]

based on the merit of his own

and i'm gonna help him

no doubt i'm gonna help him and stuff

but he doesn't only need my help is the

thing he's got his own thing

right

but um

[Music]

those are the people i respect the most

because guys i was a circa chatter for

one year

for one year and before i recontacted

with zerk on twitch

as infrared

i built my own thing you know i mean

he's helped me a ton but i built my own

thing first

that's why

i will never respect leeches i will

never respect leeches

you gotta make your own

impression you have to make your own way

before you start collaborating

you can't just take you also have to

offer

you should stream earlier

yeah i'm gonna start don't worry about

that i'm gonna start streaming earlier

but everyone technically leeches

dude you're the you are the people that

just exhaust me you're the people that

just make me tired

are you ready for the debate

i didn't prepare for this debate i did

not prepare for

i didn't prepare for it

[Music]

such a shame seeing 500 views live in

10k vods why

what's

what's the debate about it's gonna be

about afghanistan

i really don't like this song that much

let me put something that's not gonna

get muted

um

anyway

what's the debate topic afghanistan

what was i saying again

yeah dude

let me tell you the difference between

me and a lot of other people

and why i need to take days i envy a lot

of you who just wake up

and are just defined by this world a lot

of you guys you just wake up

and you don't

have to have focus

you just are in this world

and are just reacting to this world you

are like you're passive people right 99

of you basically passive people

that's just the truth and i envy it

but me

before and the way i measure it is

before my workouts my specific one of

the specific workouts i do

i have

to have

a specific focus i have a vision and i

have an aesthetic in my head

but this aesthetic you have to go

through a labyrinth

of thoughts and concentration

and focus to get to it

and getting to it

it takes a lot of brain power every day

and actually one of the things if you

think about it

over the years

to me progress means

i'm finding shortcuts to be able to get

to this

aesthetic this vision i have and remind

myself of it

with the least amount of brain power i

become more and more efficient at just

remembering right

just remembering

actually one of the ways i've done this

is just streaming itself

because now i have a whole community

that makes me not have to remember a lot

of things it's just given now it's just

a given

right

like um

but dude if i forget this is so [ __ ]

weird right

if i forget my purpose

i become immobile i cannot make i cannot

perform a single act i become completely

immobile

and

one of the things that make me so

aggressive in debates

is the way

people way i could see how people don't

have to live with this sense of

finding meaning in this world

and they just

are stupid people and it pisses me off

so much because i have to have such a

subtle

deep

elaborate focus right to arrive at

specific point of meaning

and these other people can literally

just be like

they just literally parrot what they see

on [ __ ] tv or other debate streamers

and guys

don't

don't never mistaken stupidity dude

stupidity

there's a lot of complication that goes

into us stupidity like it takes a lot to

unpack

stupidity like

when people are so stupid

it actually takes a lot of brain power

and work

to like

unravel the depths and the complexities

of how [ __ ] stupid they are

you know

but

dude debating is an arms race to see

who can just

[Music]

get there like this right it's an arms

race

there's no room for nuance there's no

room for complexity

that's [ __ ] [ __ ] you there's no room

for that debating is all about

snappily

arriving at

something that's just gonna just

completely in the heat of the moment

destroy the enemy

you know

like for example you know what stumps me

a lot when people are like

okay haws what does bad mean thank you i

am atari appreciate you

holy [ __ ] thank you

man like

when people um

when people are like

okay haas

what is truth what is bad like dude that

is actually

so

[ __ ] hard to respond to

it's not easy to respond to

especially when you're a guy like me

that has very unorthodox views about

everything

right

but

i i need to focus more and this is

something i don't do is just

finding my shortcuts like what can i

just say that's just gonna be accurate

enough just for the purposes of the

debate you know the only debate is the

kaiut one dude shut the [ __ ] up

the only reason i looked bad in that

caillou debate is because you the chat

were cocking me you the chat were the

biggest [ __ ] blocks

if you just shut the [ __ ] up and backed

me up during the two-hole

kill shot

you would have i would have [ __ ]

prevailed

gloriously it was you the chat

that

executed the three-hole kill shot on me

and i really need to start banning you

guys

guys let me tell you something no e-girl

will ever talk to you so you have a

choice

either you help or you at least don't

get in my way or some other cuck is

gonna be taking these girls it's either

me or some other cuck on twitch who do

you prefer

and who do you have a better time

beating your meat to thinking about

being with these girls obviously me so

choose me and don't get in my [ __ ]

way

[Music]

i just want you to be nice to me

a lot of people in the chat were mad you

were talking with her

yeah i don't give a [ __ ]

and i still stand by the two-hole theory

i still stand by the two-hole theory

because

everything is in those lips

everything is in the lips that's a whole

that whole thing is a hole

now you could talk about sub-holes

and sub-sections

the genuine crush i watched her stream a

bit yesterday

because that's how it is man

that's how it is

the the ones you like

the ones you like

you know

you have to put in a lot of work but the

ones that like you you just don't like

that's just hot that's the law of nature

always zerka called me

let me call him back

oh yeah what up

yo yo yo what up what up what are you up

there

hello

hello can you hear me yeah i gave you

yeah what are you talking about

i missed it

um i'm i just said the ones that like

you you don't like them but the ones you

like you have to put in a lot of work

oh no i thought you were talking [ __ ]

about that dude the angus no i was i was

early

you know he's not a random viewer like i

know him and he opened up to me about

some really personal tragic [ __ ] that's

why i felt really cruel like to just

kick him off the call right and i don't

yeah it's like

some seriously heavy stuff like really

depressing stuff but uh yeah dude you

were so strange last night bro i don't

know if it was the edibles

after i was in tears laughing at 90 of

your dominance you're like yo bro why'd

you laugh at this joke like

right

laughing

really

dude it wasn't funny he literally just

called me poop and he started laughing

no no no no no it's more of the

uncomfortable moment that's funny right

like it is uncomfortable right

yeah

there's a chatter why didn't you start

to educate that british girl about

marxism she was begging for it did you

just troll her

british girl

uh ink bites

dude we saw your debate with some

[ __ ] socialists you used to be even

more angry

dude because let me tell you why

i'll explain why hold on hold on mute

your stream so i can say something okay

hold on i'm gonna meet my stream

go ahead

no i was on youtube back then

dude i was sleeping i didn't even know

you watched it

yeah

aggressive styles kind of bothers me

it's like you know that cucks that your

competition does is afraid of you know

that [ __ ] your girls no let me explain

what happened i'll explain you how i

became a thing in the first place right

so i started out only i know youtube

they linked it to me i saw your youtube

yes

and i had no you got to think about this

dude i had no

like

i had no experience being

like relevant or talking to these like

dude like for example

that guy was like a celebrity in my eyes

like that he had like all this cloud and

[ __ ] i was just a nobody and then let me

tell you what happened though in one so

i i went overnight basically over one

weekend i became famous so the first

thing that happened was this what month

was this uh this was like march i think

march

super recent

yeah so what happened was basically um

there's this content creator called

xander hall he's like he was he used to

be an up-and-coming like he was the next

like

destiny type of guy and

i didn't know who he was people were

telling me about him

and

i was streaming and then something

insane happened is that oh [ __ ] i

actually landed a debate with him like

the night of i was like i was in his

chat like talking [ __ ] to him whatever

and i got to him and he's like okay i'll

debate this guy so then that's what put

me on the map i debated the xander hall

guy and it was like a crazy [ __ ]

night is that the 18 000 view youtube

video i just saw it we just clicked on

it i had no idea

it was it was xander hall it was exactly

but then listen

when you said youtube made me i thought

you were trolling i didn't know you

having youtube no no yeah you just

stated youtube now

i just what i thought your youtube is

just made now i searched it up and no

it's been going dude yeah yeah yeah so

what happened

so what happened is that um the day

after editor i wonder who's your editor

like where'd you find him

we i have a few editors so one of my

editors is in the infrared kind of group

he's crushing it he's crushing it yeah

and then there's another editor that's

that i'm paying for other videos because

the other guy's busy but um

so the day after that i debated vaush

right and didn't vouch like dip though

yes and then the day after that i

debated that you know why he dipped bro

yeah

you need to do like

no i'm just i'm telling you you know i

only got to debate hassan and destiny

because i did the bait and switch i was

like so do you want to debate no i was

trying to say and then

yeah i went from like having no no one

knew who i was to in one weekend

debating all the big names and i dude i

thought vosh was going to be like a

really long-term goal to debate him and

apparently it just it happened overnight

so

that the reason i was so angry and so

unhinged in those debates where like i

just like couldn't control myself was

because like i was not used to being

like live in front of that many viewers

but i'm not

i'm not gonna lie i don't think you

could even grow debating vosh to be

honest

yeah i mean the

devout people will never you know

they're soft right no yeah i know but um

the vos the the reason why my vows

debate did like do a lot of good for me

though was because there were a lot of

people who don't like vosh

but yeah they never you know

you formed the dgg or haters

those guys and then also tankies you

know yeah yeah tankies and then all just

you need to be tweeting bro thank you

twitter right i'm on i'm on twitter do i

tweet all the [ __ ] i'm dude i this is

something i i talk to my chat about that

i gotta focus on to fix myself dude i

[ __ ]

get into twitter arguments all day

yeah be careful you don't get banned you

know and you know what i was thinking

i'm like whoa you know you're not in if

this was like right-wing politics you

wouldn't be in that much danger debating

you know whatever but uh you're in so

much danger for mass reporting because

uh you know the socialists are not like

tankies they get butt hurt they mass

report you know that

dude i know but um if it hasn't happened

now i just

no i i'm i'm i'm saying like still be

strategic you know no i know i dude i'm

i'm so careful now i'm so careful now

dude but still i almost wish i could

tell you dude do a 15 minute normal

conversation with them calm then go 20

minutes and as you're picking up

momentum and kind of like looking civil

as soon as you're at the topic you know

that they're going to lose at the ko

yeah

dude i tried that from the start i bet

you think wash will never debate you

again no no i i used to try and do that

[ __ ] for a lot of these people and i

still kind of do but here's the issue

dude

these people will just [ __ ]

disrespect you they will literally just

disrespect me and they'll play like a

dominance game and they'll literally try

and just [ __ ] well here's their

biggest insult oh you're a statist well

that means you're just conservative oh

wow good one

dude they dude that guy irrelevant

literally called me a nazi he goes on

stream calling me a nazi like every day

what are you talking about yeah he he

literally said i'm i am the same as a

nazi and he also he doesn't like status

no no he said

um dude he he like what do you mean

like the u.s is it for your politics or

is it more for like girl tanks

no it's because let me tell you what

what these people have an issue with

tankies about right

and there are some there are a lot of

sjw tanky type people and i don't they

hate me too i don't [ __ ] with them yeah

he called me a red fascist so the

problem these people have is that

um

tanky type people like me we are more

conservative more traditional um

we believe that like um nations are real

like we believe that yeah family we

believe that kind of stuff oh they hate

they hate any nationalist dude be

careful yeah that's what i mean and so

you know on twitch a nationalist is a

nazi

yeah yeah and not on youtube

yeah yeah i know i know

but

it's like that and then

he but he said that because uh in a

debate with destiny i was like

something about western bias right i

don't know i don't even know what i said

um i just said you can scream i want to

give you serious serious

good advice this is the best advice okay

it's muted

five more minutes just apologize to them

okay yeah

all right my bad boys

okay

so wait who did you want to apologize to

oh my bad boys all i told has is

i believe there's so many snakes out to

get him and i thought he's gonna [ __ ]

yell at me but he agrees

yeah

yeah that's facts yeah

and i didn't tell him to be careful

right i told him more like uh

you know

right like i write notes on people

people will talk about me

so like have notes on people and uh and

some people are not worth addressing i

feel like your channel addresses

everyone some people yeah that's really

nice dude i need i need to [ __ ]

get a hold on the haters [ __ ] because

dude you know what's [ __ ] up

you usually with most streamers they get

past the hater stuff like way way

earlier than

i than the point i am

and i'm gotten to this point i'm like

one of the only streamers who at this

point will still get mad at like

a random [ __ ] twitter comment

you know

yeah yeah i mean now that i think about

it um conservatives are crazy like

they'll come [ __ ] punch you in the

face but you're in a pool of snakes they

don't punch you in the face they're

going to mass report you and [ __ ] so

yeah yeah and like spin narratives and

[ __ ] like that

yeah but i don't know

i do yeah

i'm just waiting for that and remember

dude i guarantee you i'm not alone your

whole chat wants you to be strict with

chat they don't want no [ __ ] [ __ ]

[ __ ] you know if someone's going at you

bro

you respond to the what grows your

channel if someone's hating on you in

chat [ __ ] band their ass in seconds

yeah i agree

yeah you can remember you can always

have content like farming haters and

stuff like that when you're sustaining

but right now you're in your growth face

hey i'm gonna get some sleep it's been

like 24 hours or some [ __ ] all right man

get some sleep yeah hey if you guys

don't subscribe everyone that chat's

probably a pedophile

hello

i'm gonna hate on you right now why you

so handsome

thank you xtreme appreciate you

[Music]

oh man

we got a lot to cover today

you know about this song too what the

[ __ ]

dude hottest

me and zurkas music taste oh [ __ ]

paper win with the twelve

holy [ __ ]

dude me and

our music tastes overlaps

like we listen to the same songs

thank you anonymousgifter

stuck in 2012.

it's facts though

he's gonna call out every top streamer

when he's up so get him up

who me

[Music]

yeah i'm already doing that

but yeah you're right

yo give me some wash my hands one sec

[Music]

me

[Music]

all right guys past few weeks

i've been doing

three four hour streams

we're getting back on schedule

we're getting back on schedule i'll just

fix my sleep naturally

yeah we're gonna get back on schedule

back how it was

thank you jalapeno

or sorry thank you anonymous appreciate

you

thank you so much

why do you save gold content from my

streams only thank you marshall

scientist dude let me tell you why

my channel can can only have so much

dating and relationship type [ __ ] you

know

i just prefer it

yeah

pick up call okay hold

on yo what up

yo what do you why do you have those as

your sub alerts that's really bothering

me

i don't i have a i have um

it's a glitch it's a glitch

check this all right look what i sent

you i don't know if you can do this but

can you run a better theme on your

channel i'm gonna send you tank gifts

you need tanki and why don't you have

tank emotes for your chat

yeah dude love a mobilized army when

they're live they love spamming the

[ __ ] tank and [ __ ] oh [ __ ] dude

i could do a gorilla tan on a tank i

never even thought of that i'm literally

an artist i do more i am look at my

emotes i know marketing dude i know

exactly what you need you need a tank

emote everything else you can do

yourself right but yeah you don't want

to be called a tanki without the theme

right and marketing wise it's all optics

it's all visuals dude when i get when

dude gifted my gifted subs are um

yeah i have like custom alerts but

sometimes twitch just glitches

click on this but maybe not that one

don't show it on stream

okay let me see but i want something

like that if you can do it

for for your uh for donations and stuff

and uh let me know if you want someone

to make you a tank emo for free i gotta

i got a genius

yes that's it dude you should see the

[ __ ] my community makes for me they do

the tank thing they make videos they

make [ __ ] crazy

custom promotional type of [ __ ] it's

crazy dude neat feet used to make these

really crazy videos too i love neat i

need's one of the best people i've had

for years and he sends me reacts like

he's such a he's gold but yeah uh for

your tanky emote

2d is cute and all dude get do a 3d box

like a box tank kind of like uh you

remember the game pocket tanks

yeah yeah no you don't on mobile

was it something like this i wanted

something like that and uh i don't have

the tanky theme so like dude i'm

drooling for this tank like this looks

so sick let me see look look literally

copy that you will not get sued look at

this tank

okay look at the bottom oh [ __ ]

look at the purple background can you

open that

get that and get different color [ __ ]

tanks for uh your tiered subs or you can

do a tank emote so when you go tank mode

everyone spams it and i promise you did

people get meme people get the emotes

just to use them even if they don't like

you wait i can i can use this tank what

i one hundred percent

100 bro i don't want to say it live but

oh my god dude and i know the developers

are they won't give a [ __ ]

but uh or you can search a 3d tank model

dude i do need new badges my [ __ ]

badges got take dude did you know this

your badges can't be political i thought

it was just the emotes but

yeah

my badge was like a

custom style type of hammer and sickle

like but it was a custom you need the

red star that's way more like you dude

they'll take it down because you know

that you know the hammer and sickle is

more calmy you're like a [ __ ] status

you're the red star that would make more

sense marketing-wise

yeah i know but this this was like this

was like a custom one though it was like

it wasn't like a real uh traditional

hammer and stick what was like um and

dude the infrared gg bow i would run it

with infrared type colors and the red

part should be communist blood red did

you did you see the website

what website infrared dot gg

who you made it

well we had someone make it check it out

just type infrared.gigi on your browser

okay what's gonna infrared.gg

is it just the chat

yeah oh you're red.gigi

oh my god how much this cost

i

i i don't think we paid anything we just

so we ripped destiny's website because

it's open source and we put our own

custom thing to it yeah but this is

useless bro why don't you have a live

chat going for offline chatters

uh custom chat api

that's the only thing you need

everything else is useless dude

because i don't know because i i feel

like it would harm the twitch growth

if like i separated the chats

no no no it's just for a late night when

people are like hey i'm i'm awake at 3

am i got nothing to do then they can be

like hey how's debated this guy offline

watch this

is like our aesthetic though it's like

uh like this futuristic type of

bro if you don't get these [ __ ] tank

emotes done i'm gonna be shook dude no

the the 3d works because it's like 3d so

it works because it's like our aesthetic

yeah

and and i'm worried that you're gonna

have like uh emotes that don't pop out

like the 2d ones i'm so bored of you

know

dude yeah i i so do you know my son you

know my son gorilla emo

yeah i like that one yeah

i paid i just paid on fiverr someone to

do it and even to this day i'm not

really satisfied with it because it's

2d i'm gonna be honest i don't like it

because i always think it's train wrecks

when you raid me i don't know why i that

sun needs to be blood red and the

gorilla needs to be green that you if

you understand marketing dude

why green

it's tankies dude green and a red dot

that's all you need right

oh like uh like an army red a green like

if you're known as the hulk green

gorilla it's better it markets to the

youth better when you have just a

regular dude that gorilla is looks like

it's on stockx.com it's trash bro it

looks just like trains whatever hey

people are actually going to subscribe

to train because of you

that's ridiculous man that's crazy

like how do you not think of that dude

if i had an email to look like someone

else's i'd panic dude dude i just need

someone to make these emotes because the

the fiverr people they make it in the

same style no one i i need to find

someone who can make an emote that fits

my style

please use this dude you can color this

let me see

i don't think they're gonna allow tank

for your sub badges keep your sub badges

do not change the infrared thing though

that way why wouldn't they allow it for

dude this one looks sick i know i know

don't tell anyone cut it out and color

it and uh if it's not green i'm gonna

unfriend you dude like make you green

if you market yourself like hulk green

it's so much easier because when someone

clicks on you and they don't know who

you are and they see you raging and

stuff and the theme is all green

immediately it just clicks easier you

know that's why sometimes i wear uh

anyways anyways i'm not gonna say so you

think green is a good

start to be honest dude i run my channel

like an army right i'd love to do the

tank thing and stuff like that but uh we

lot we laugh more than we debate to be

honest nowadays

dude i have a sub i can replace i have

an emote i can replace and this tank

should do you don't think twins do you

think switch would consider it political

though or 100 percent you can you cannot

do it as your sub batch because th

they'll leave it on and then when they

find out your tank is about oh [ __ ] well

no no it's for a mo that's for remote

studio you can't have political emotes

yeah the the gorilla is great but i'm

telling you you're just giving train

more subs it doesn't make any sense

because you know why though right

because when i when i when i like popped

off on youtube

you know youtube doesn't have emotes

yeah and the just community just just

made gorillas and sons the remote like

it just became our thing oh like there's

no story behind it

there is there is so like i did a video

once where i was talking about king kong

and um

i don't know why why did i start talking

i don't have no idea but the community

just the community just started spamming

gorillas and sons and that became our

symbol if you don't know why then you

haven't bonded with it but you know why

i want it to be green because

the colors you choose are so train

wrecks tv i know that i didn't know that

i didn't know his was also gold because

gold is also like

yeah and it doesn't it won't grow your

channel because you're competing with

those gorilla emotes and his are

actually brilliant right yeah

so

uh unless you're the green gorilla then

then like the a hulk theme would be

better and um

yeah i don't know maybe it could be like

a gorilla with an army helmet do you do

you think my emotes are good yeah or no

yes

my chat is always spamming them so yeah

i'm telling you i know dude wait you

know what i'm gonna be honest with you

this is something i noticed too you want

to know i think you removed the emote

your old emote was the best one which

one

the one where it was your face but it

wasn't just a box it was like your face

um oh okay just me angry that's the

thing dude it was so recognizable here's

the thing

you your emotes are now recognizable

because everyone who knows like you're

like you're weird you're kind of weird

you know so like when they see like the

weird face you make or whatever they're

like okay that's zirco he's crazy but

but your old one was so recognizable and

i wanted to make one myself and i

realized the way it worked was that

so if you look at it on the bottom like

with your chin

it cuts off so it pop out when it's just

a square i don't know it does it's not

that distinguishable when it's just a

square yeah i didn't even do it someone

just gave it to me i never even thought

much of that email but dude let me tell

you something you know there's a

thousand subscribers that don't even

like me they just want to use the emotes

so yeah that's why

if there's no like train train has one

of the most comedic emotes the squad w

right yeah um and it's straight up like

uh

bad bro i just want the tank thing

because uh i think i think that's the

other one but as soon as someone enters

a call to debate you you see green tanks

spam like it's just such i just i'm just

worried about the political thing

because it's it's it's an emote it's

it's an emo it's it's fine but no no

emotes can't be political

oh right right why am i saying that yeah

you're right you're like oh that's why

nobody has the [ __ ] tank yeah yeah

well i don't know it might not be

political it's just

i might i might email twitch just to beg

for more emotes thoughts i don't need

the partnership i want the tank for

myself then [ __ ] it dude

so you applied like months ago and they

said you're just reacting

yeah did you apply again no no no i

don't no no

well they're not going to give it i i

trolled way too hard on here like

they're not going to give it to me uh

there's just you no no listen you

actually have a show now you don't they

can't just say you react andy you have a

show now you have a podcast you run you

you're you're not you're known as the

podcast guy now you know so well they've

rejected me when i did irl's only too

like they don't care

you know

anyways

oh [ __ ] wow

yeah yeah

but um

well maybe they don't like irl's i feel

like they don't like iros

um depends we're bold so they don't like

us but for being they like us at home i

think you i think they'll partner you if

you keep up the show stuff and the

podcast

that's a really good chance to get

partnered because i mean it's very clear

that's that's like a huge vehicle for

growth

and

how did you think of the infrared globe

thing this is one of the sickest things

i've ever seen dude this is how because

when we came up with the name we needed

like a profile picture for the youtube

and i i just said you know what i'm

gonna look up infrared globe or infrared

earth or something and i'll just make

because it fills the circle for youtube

and i was like i'll just leave it there

as a placeholder and we'll find

something more better and custom later

and then when i found out it was fair

use

i can literally beef it up why don't you

make it a scope like a sniper scope with

the same colors

a sniper scope right like an fps right

like a sniper scope so you're looking at

people infrared as you're debating them

bruh because i'll get in trouble

no you what do you mean the snipers

what cause twitch will like take it

seriously or whatever

oh the globe i don't get the globe thing

it's like the world is infrared

um

let me try to think the reason you know

the reason why is because we want to

have a global perspective global vision

like not just

i mean like

bro i don't know why chad when i see

this guy live doesn't it look like his

marketing should be catered more towards

militant

like he's going towards the looking like

[ __ ] cnn why not look more militant

with the [ __ ] you know you that you

are literally militant every take you

have is militant that's a great way

that's facts i don't know the reason is

because we just we just have this as

because we we wanna here here i can grow

your [ __ ] [ __ ] so bad chad let me

know if this is a good idea

he can literally run call me pepe's

without nobody knowing

i mean it's not that big a deal he can

run uh whatever the [ __ ] uh if you had

pepe style emotes that are just yours

and i want to do this but i don't have

slots right uh yeah like i have a joker

pepe no one has that right so

like oh [ __ ] i never thought about the

pepe thing yeah yeah so um

yeah but uh dude yeah i mean

if the gorilla sun doesn't turn red by

tomorrow i'm gonna [ __ ] punch you in

the [ __ ]

tomorrow i dude i gotta find someone to

do all that [ __ ]

i'll do it for you right now bro who do

you need who do you need um

blue i gave you blue remember blue from

twitter

he does he did all my emails he'll do

that for free

of course bro

just he just wants vip in chats

damn you think the red will be better

than the golden one the sun is old and

ask your chat if they even like it or

maybe i'm just seeing [ __ ] but i i i

didn't like it when i first got it but

that's just because i thought it was too

cartoony like i wanted to be more like

realistic and aggressive

i loved it but i always thought it's

train hosting me it was very weird to me

yeah well you know that you're right

dude i need i need independent branding

colors because it doesn't really fit our

colors but if you notice dude our colors

are like

they have some red some it's like the

infrared globe is pretty much ours

why not just have a whole red gorilla

then with no background that'll pop way

harder and then

yeah i i think you know what that's what

i was saying before too the red dude i

got that from chad the red gorilla but

we do

we need the gorillas and suns though

because that's like that's like a

trademark we have right the gorillas and

sons but a red gorilla would be [ __ ]

sick bro i don't give a [ __ ] what your

trademark is it's to grow your channel

and sometimes i think you'll still get

swallowed by train a bit like it seems

like

yeah it seems like maybe 10 15 20 of

your following might go to

him like you know people confuse

streamers all the time and [ __ ] dude

yeah dude what i need is dude they

confuse us

yeah dude i find that hilarious i don't

even get that you know

like what do you think do you think i s

i started to sound i don't know i've

always i always feel like i've sounded

this way you think i started to sound

like you because um

bro i sound like people tell me i sound

wise but they don't i don't i don't

sound like i'm [ __ ] a law student you

literally when debate sound like you're

a [ __ ] genius

yeah i mean um

i don't know except when you're talking

to girls then you sound [ __ ] as [ __ ]

but i saw that debate with the

socialists and i don't even know why

you're going hard on him he was

literally he had no arguments none

are you dude you know no no this is why

because despite that i was winning the

argument i was losing in the game of

clout like he was still the

bigger guy than me in terms of your

biggest mistake dude if you look at my

old royales i'll send you a link you can

never see me look at chat because i

didn't know chat exists and i did so

much better not looking at chat but you

look at chat and it's such a waste of

time to look at chat when i and that's

what's so interesting you look at chat

four times and you still don't

uh

stutter how do you know if i have a

thought and i look at chat i'm [ __ ] i

need to like look away

i don't know how you do that like but

for that socialist dude how do you not

cringe they all behave like destiny they

put their hand on their cheek and [ __ ]

dude

instead of cringing i just get angry you

know

yeah

dude uh did you hear what vars said

about you

yeah and you i was gonna send that [ __ ]

to you he was like would zerko do does

circle just platform righties

who who's that kid jackson right yeah

no he's not me and him or not matter of

fact you guys are directly opposing the

right if you think about they hate china

yeah yeah i mean um

you know the thing with the thing with

valves is that he thinks everything is

about the political spectrum so he just

like

assumes that he he thinks like i care

when he calls me a righty like i don't

give a [ __ ] dude like no no no socialism

is kind of just for making money if you

think about like how do you even

peacefully seize the means of production

like it

always comes through a revolution stage

doesn't it

yeah i mean yeah there's no doubt about

that like especially like politically

like yeah there's

dude

the thing with which if you think about

it they think you're blood thirsty

you're not you just want to extremely

rock the boat so [ __ ] sock them and

righties can feel that oh my god there's

a tanky presence but let me tell you

something i don't think being a tanki

will ever be that that popular

you know i don't i don't know because

the thing is is that

i so me and jackson

are a different type of tanki right

there used to be tankies that just like

they just care about other countries but

we are actually a new thing like we

actually we actually like represent

we want to represent a new type of thing

in america which is like um

yeah but yeah you can't approach it

always militant you almost have to

become a pastor because you know 99 of

society is soy they're going to lean

socially no dude but dude this but you

know the people i try to win over right

and i appeal to and i talk to and i

actually like form alliances with i

don't care about leftists leftists are a

tiny minority it's literally ron paul

right wing uh libertarians

you're right you mean the joe rogan fans

yeah yeah those are the people that i'm

talking to yeah those are the people i'm

interested in

on paper that's not most of the world

but people would say sock dems are most

of the world yeah literally if you give

someone money most people lean

libertarian i've noticed that like yeah

obviously yeah even if you give money to

like [ __ ] socialists in eu

dude because here's the truth every

socialist is a cop

think about it what do you mean

like they're just snitches they're cops

they're just people who like try to they

never be real with you they're always

just trying to enforce rules and police

how people talk and

you know that kind of [ __ ] and it's like

it's like

not just on a personal level but

politically they're also that way too

like you know like the thing let me tell

you the meta let me tell you the meta

social media

infrared like aren't you studying law

how do you have time for all this

political [ __ ]

i i i'm taking a year leave now so i

have all these

when did you have time to uh read about

politics if you're like well i dude i

told you when i when i um

when i was in college i was not having

that much fun

you know i was i was a shut-in and i was

just

focusing on this kind of [ __ ]

why don't you link me some [ __ ] nice

documentaries i want to see

i can link you whatever just tell me

what you're interested in link me good

[ __ ] like talk to the hand sends me

conspiratorial [ __ ] for you anything

that's f uh medium pace about lenin or

or

really anyone but i can't find good

documentaries on youtube anymore

yeah dude i'll send you [ __ ] yeah i'll

send you

you know what you know we make

documentaries too right what do you mean

like there's other infrared people who

they made a they make documentaries for

their youtube like they make long form

informative videos

who are this

just

that my friend my buddies that i've had

for like years that

but no i mean i've i i wrote the script

for like

the first few videos and then after i

started streaming they start to make the

scripts and they they do they're super

high quality too they're super good yeah

someone said zerka thank you i'm gonna

be honest dude i'm not gonna be a tanki

but i've noticed something i don't think

i've ever met a tanki i don't like dude

you know the thing with you

dude i would i would pref dude whenever

my chat tries to talk about what zerko's

political views i cringe out because

it's better if you're just more like

neutral you know what i mean um

well i mean your chat's gonna hate me

because i believe in god right and you

no dude no they don't i swear to god

my chat hopeless you're hopeless as [ __ ]

dude my chat likes you a lot the people

the only reason someone could if if

anyone hates you they also hate me too

no no no dude if your chat hates me that

means more people in your chat don't

ever time them out if they're hating on

me dude let me tell you the truth the

only reason some people in my chat

wouldn't like you is because

they don't like

my royale normie and dating stuff like

they just they don't like it but

that's the older crowd right

yeah that's like the more older people

the more mature people the people who

think about it

you know you know those same people are

in destiny's chat and they killed his

channel literally destroyed his channel

be careful with them no well i'm not no

no because hold on i'm not saying that

as like butthurt i'm saying that if you

don't have youth and exuberance when

you're that's what that's that's what

they i told them to understand yeah

that's what they got to understand dude

like the dating stuff and all that stuff

people need to realize dude nobody's the

people who want to sit in on twitch and

watch twitch they want to see sexual

stuff they want to talk about that kind

of stuff they want to [ __ ] because

they're not

in real life they're not get you know

what i mean and it's even funnier when

you the contrast between your takes and

theirs right yeah

yeah and it's like um

yeah dude trust me my chat

dude i always

ban i always ban and i [ __ ] dude you let

me do you know the left is the biggest

infighting ever right

yeah yeah i've known i've noticed yeah

so so even though he's doing more

the right is more violent in fighting

but not as much of it going on quantity

the left i don't think there's one lefty

that agrees with another on twitch i

swear to god that's that so i have a lot

of experience because you know i the

first people that have always come after

me were like my biggest enemies are

lefties even other tankies have come at

me trying to like purity test me and

[ __ ] be like

my biggest enemies are never lefties

it's always [ __ ] sock dems yeah yeah

yeah

weirdos you know what's funny is talk

times are the only people that can agree

with you and still disagree like what

the [ __ ] is wrong with them you know

like when you win me over on some china

takes i go oh yeah china's pretty cool

for that you know you can still win me

over i asked you on stream i'm like yo

give me four bad things about china you

actually answered so you know you're

pretty honest yeah

destiny's little [ __ ] ass chat they

cannot concede one point you know to

this day

uh

you know what destiny said to me in a

debate and they all made fun of me for

like two days

i said genetically

twins are born different and stephen

said what are you talking about

identical twins are the definition of

clones of each other and i said

no steven they're not genetically it's

different hormone profiles different

metabolisms they're gonna look different

he's like what are you talking about

they look the same i'm like if you look

at harsh wins keith and kevin hodge he

kept gaslighting gaslighting gaslighting

right and i was shook right when i was

right not only one guy from his chest

said zerka i love i don't watch you i

watch destiny but you're totally right

about this and you know to this day

they're still laughing thinking they're

right about that but it's like

you know when destiny stopped talking

i'm like yo destiny you know he's kept

screaming they're identical twins

they're clones they're 100 close yeah i

said dude you know even two cheetahs are

not identical and then he shut the [ __ ]

up for like he literally went quiet for

like a minute and a half and that's when

i realized like

you know

i don't know left these lefties let me

tell you the issue

lefties aren't as stubborn as those

[ __ ] liberals i'm gonna tell you that

dude let me tell you the truth the

number one thing i always tell my chat

about is the issue of fanaticism right

you have to understand that not everyone

thinks like you not everyone has your

ideology

and you should never you should stop

people need to stop being overly

ideological

and

if you know like if it comes up you can

talk about it right but like you don't

have to be fanatical and try to like

convert everyone

the biggest mistake you're gonna have as

a streamer is that you're gonna be uh

calming it down because you're gonna

start thinking you're scaring someone in

your chat that you know supports you and

stuff

i've noticed

when you double down and you actually

mean it don't be fake like actually

double down when you double down they

double triple your sub count right yeah

ever if there's one dude in chat that

you've known for a long time and he's

constantly softening you up he's getting

you ready for being canceled you know

let me explain let me explain an example

this so the first time i went and was

talking to e girls on a show and [ __ ]

i had people in chat get mad because

they i i wasn't it wasn't ideological

enough like they were oh yeah

they just they were just mad i wasn't

talking about stalin

with who though just random egos normies

and i was just you know dude

that's what i wonder i'm like does your

chat know when you have to play optics

too or they always want you to drop the

harshness because

you know it's still there's still a

strategy to being a live streamer you

know there's a everyone uh bends tos how

they can yeah but he let me tell you the

number one reason why

how's his chat support him no matter

what even if you think he's pushing back

on a position because he's probably

pushing back for optic's sake sometimes

a girl can cry and get you in a lot of

trouble you know that

yeah dude and when i was on the nimbo

show it was like it was people were it

was getting weird like yeah that was

that's why you're trying to reward

reward the chatters that go yo yo house

be careful she's sensitive if there's a

chatter that says finish it off that guy

needs to be timed out for a thousand

days because i used to let them in my

chat and dude they subconsciously hype

you up to say crazy [ __ ] so be careful

yeah yeah i know dude trust me i do i

remember when i first came on twitch it

was like we were [ __ ] barbarians dude

and yeah i started to chill but here's

the thing the reason why people are so

fanatical and this is what's [ __ ] up

is like let me see like the destiny

thing when he was saying with you

it's almost like they think if they

concede on one point that they feel

is against the mainstream

then they're opening the floodgates and

everything goes back to nazis

you know what i mean like like

more than anyone else though it's but

here's it's just what's scary like if i

question iraq has wmds

yeah that's a stepping stone to

believing in nazis and you know what

they have to say you're just losing a

debate because literally everyone on

earth should admit that there was no

wmds

i know but it's it's like [ __ ] crazy

because it's like these people are so

anxious about like having imposing these

views like people are people are scared

dude like when some if if you met a guy

in real life

like let's say like i don't know let's

say this latest like ivermectin [ __ ]

right or whatever right right if i met a

guy in real life and he believes in iver

mektin

even if i disagree disagree with him i

probably disagree with him i don't know

anything about it but

why would i get mad like i would be

personally offended you know what i mean

yeah yeah yeah like why get why take it

personal because so many people just

take it personal they get mad

yeah and dude that's literally why

you have made enemies just from the flat

earth [ __ ] like

yeah no but i'm glad i did that i'm

actually that's one thing i don't regret

i don't regret anything but you know

what i do regret there's a lot of people

you know what i do now if i'm debating

someone and i realize they're not worth

my time i literally just leave

if i know that i'm not farming anything

out of them i leave i'm like venom if

i'm not sucking something out of you i'm

[ __ ] leaving dude let me tell you the

issue though

dude you're at a point where you're

rewarding haters you're literally but

here's the thing when i'm in the middle

of the debate i can't leave a lot of the

time because narrative

are different yeah narratives get spun

that i ran away

here's something you do extremely wrong

dude that i'm pretty sure everyone does

this correct

when you debate you already know which

what they're gonna call you and stuff

like that like oh wmds blah blah how

come you don't have clips ready on your

computer to send them right away like i

hate when debaters google stuff like

well if you look at this george bush

clip you should have all those clips set

up so you can you can mirror force

everything back you know the sad [ __ ]

truth

yeah for as a debate streamer and this

is i haven't yet to see a single example

i am the least

prepared one what i mean by that is that

i have no i don't have a team of people

who prepare me who i talk to with

sources i i don't have like documents to

look to or i literally always debate off

the top of my head

yeah and i never prepare

like i'm about to debate in like 10

minutes with this girl

oh really what the [ __ ] about uh

afghanistan

and i did not prepare like i just i

didn't prepare i'm going i'm just going

in it

i haven't slept in days i'm seeing three

of you i'm so dead and but my my heart

is telling me

dude i just have you on my streams i'm

never on yours so i can't sleep you know

if you can't sleep you don't you don't

gotta i don't know i'm here tell the

truth here i'll wait i'll wait it out

because yeah yeah yeah for a few days i

was like why am i always

you know houses always on my stream i

never catch his time slot that's evil

dude

no it's not dude because here's the

thing that there's a time difference you

stream at a different time and then also

dude you are still like

the bigger streamer you know i mean like

you oh i don't i don't look at numbers

right because i genuinely no i'm not i'm

not talking about numbers i'm talking

about like in terms of who is known in

the twitch community oh but you you know

i you know i don't see you as a friend

you know i see you as a proxy right

yeah i mean i don't take anything

personally

no no no i don't like obviously we're

friends but that's not why i cherish you

you know friendship's useless to you and

me right yeah i see you as a proxy that

means when i'm offline you're the [ __ ]

storm right and you're pissing off the

people that piss me off do you get that

yeah yeah yeah and and and if you were

to say that to me you're like yo zuka i

kind of see more of an ally than a

friend i think that's way bigger

compliment because friend is cringe and

useless

well dude that is the case because

here's the thing if you're alone in your

takes on twitch you'll get [ __ ]

destroyed by hyenas and now they're dude

i never thought two dudes like you and

me are so people are afraid to mention

our names i'm like

i thought we needed to have eight of us

dude here's the thing when it was let me

tell you let me tell you why i think

you're an ally right

when it was just me by myself

on twitch

everyone could dismiss me as like a

literal freak like everyone literally

saw me as just a crazy person a relevant

person a complete freak a complete

nobody

the minute i started going on your shows

all of a sudden vaush and all these

people are like huh maybe i'm the weirdo

you know what i mean like because i can

i do super normy content no and you

showed you can be social and make a girl

giggle for like four hours straight yeah

yeah it's like ink bites girl but what's

crazy is dude

um that network is just gonna grow and i

think you should have access to all of

it literally every girl i put in front

of your face you should add friend and

when you're not doing politics keep

growing your channel dude you you know

this better than anyone dude but here's

the truth this was true for the raj so

it's true dude sex is what sells on

twitch

more than anything that is

also reactions dude you are you are

funny when you do you know why i'm

around people like toby

not that like we'll get along super it's

because we're opposites running

opposites is [ __ ] hilarious and um

and yeah helping these girls around also

does uh

you become more strategic with your

optics like you you know you become a

little more just enough sensitive yeah

yeah and then that in drama that in

drama and dude

what's being what's being created is

dude

if if it keeps up at this pace

it's gonna it's gonna get to 10k within

the year i think

just this whatever this new type of like

network that you're creating like that

[ __ ] is

yeah

yeah and you know i'm so social that i

literally talk to anyone so i'm not like

austin and you know i'm actually

like i have people on on the fly so i

think i'm going to meet maybe a thousand

people this year before the year ends

dude look look this is literally dude

you know the only thing i regret is that

i regret not being a [ __ ] viewer at

this stage like this is literally the

golden era of the content

and viewers

there's no better content on twitch

right now i swear to [ __ ] god maybe

besides aiden ross and that kind of [ __ ]

but that's a different thing but like oh

you mean for the kids kids like yeah

there's no better content this is

literally the best content on twitch

right now how the the funniest thing is

learning from your history professor

through a streamer is hilarious bro like

you know i can't listen in history class

but i can listen to your stream all day

it's so different and when you say stuff

like no [ __ ] your trotsky was a cook

then

my professors you didn't say that so i

didn't i didn't pay attention

you know yeah yeah

i mean i gotta balance it you know i got

a balance between

you know

being this this type of like educational

stuff and political stuff and then i

gotta balance it with like personal

stuff and normie stuff you know

well you do it you do segments that's

why your stream's so easy to watch and

it's you know what i mean because you do

segments of stuff um yeah

you do everything right and dude you

never talk by like looking at chat like

you know what i mean when you intro you

actually talk like i see streamers

always staring at their chat and they

the chat interrupts them and they never

get a [ __ ] sentence other than [ __ ] i

literally can't watch anyone right now

like twitch is dog [ __ ] content right

now dude yeah dude absolutely but dude

these [ __ ] royales and all this [ __ ]

you know what's crazy dude you and i are

we just want bigger zebras like debating

hassan and stuff like that like we still

listen i've

debate i doubt it was gonna happen but

a hassan debate would literally be the

dude imagine me debating hassan i

guarantee you won't get one viewer of

this

i it don't matter dude that would

literally be out and that would be not

only would it help me obviously it'll

help me a bunch

just think of the content

yeah yeah no for the content stuff but

uh

you know his community is like mass

report andy's like be careful

oh [ __ ]

dude let me tell you something i don't

know if you heard about this hold on did

you see

this is the craziest [ __ ] i saw

hassan

he was on stream and he was like

implying that users should go um ddos

what ddos some kind of thing and then

someone put it on lsf

and the and i lo i clicked on the lsf

post and it was removed by the mods

do you do you want to know how much

power hassan actually has on twitch

he watched violent

protests

for

months

and you know that's tos all that stuff

yeah dude he can get away with it he

gets crazy it's [ __ ]

dude lsf has hassan's back honestly

oh yeah i i'm gonna be honest dude i i'm

just swear i'm not saying this to like

you know formless of her stuff you know

i don't give a [ __ ] they know my opinion

yeah but they are fair dude the fact

that they put my tweet up that was

pretty fair and i remember looking at

the camera i said lsf what the [ __ ] dude

we can't even talk you know talk about

hassan but my chat said never ever thank

them because they took down the post

when hassan wanted to

so i don't know what to do i think if

hassan reaches out to them and is like

hey remove this they'll remove it

you know what i mean they're all to be

honest it's like they're on a group i

remember when i first

met miss kiff he's like you know the ls

of guys hates you and i'm like i don't

care and he's like no no you should

carry his twitch streamer and then he's

like i'm gonna go talk to them for you

and at a party he went to talk to one of

them and i looked at the guy at the

party and we smiled and stuff i didn't

even know who the [ __ ] he was

like nice guy and um

yeah literally he fixed it and then i

was on lsf for a lot of stuff so shout

out mizzy

yeah i mean dude lsf

would help me so much but i know that's

not gonna be my v dude you know what the

only thing that we i could we could do

to form lsf

is that show but lsf what like i had one

clip go on lsf once and it was about

vosh

um

yeah and but that's the only thing that

was ever on lsf so i know lsf's not

gonna be my

i wonder if i should reach out to vosh

and tell him we're doing a sophisticated

style with no yelling yes that's what i

said that's what i said i said

i said vosh needs to be on the royale

no no but i don't want him with other

people i want him like with maybe one or

two other people like i don't want the

big royal with him

right yes

i want but i want it intimate right and

i don't want you yelling for that one

because i would no no i won't i won't i

won't you know what's funny is you know

like

i'm sure he hates me and stuff but you

know i love his content like when he

debated sargon of akkad that was the

greatest content i've ever seen okay

yeah explain help me understand this

because i'm not just saying this because

i don't like him i genuinely don't get

it

why why do so many people like vosh posh

his content he's just like watching him

linguistically he runs circles around

you

you know like he can he it's not that

his takes are always perfect and stuff

it's the execution dude he just paints a

story like a good history teacher you

know what i mean linguistically he's up

there but his take sometimes really hurt

him like he had one take with um

like

i here's the thing i don't think i think

you would beat sargent of a card right

but he did really well in that one

because

i don't know i don't know he

he just know he speaks better than

destiny but takes harder takes like you

take you know he said humans are born

man chat is so [ __ ] biased you can't

have an yo has are you hurt that i had

that opinion what

you did i said vosh is easy on the ears

no no no

are people in chat mad

yeah i don't know i thought that's like

something nice chill okay i i even said

before dude there's a reason he's got

400k

subs i'm trying to find out why what do

you think chad yeah yeah chad if you

want to if you want to attack me compare

vashta hassan speaking go ahead

you [ __ ] idiots

they come on man but i i the thing that

never i never understood

was that

i thought like people will judge

appearance and like tone and things like

that and valsha is not really like

he seems kind of like he's like a nerd

you know what i mean

he yeah he's relatable he's like an

artsy guy he draws and stuff but i've

seen

i've seen debates and he's good but he

takes weird positions he took this one

position that bothered me he said humans

are born good

can you believe that

yeah dude he says a bunch of [ __ ] but

i don't know the thing i don't

understand is like

the here's here's here's why here's what

i don't get right i always assume people

watch people that they admire and that

they would want to be like like right i

understand why people watch hassan

because he's he's good looking

and you know he gets he gets

he gets [ __ ] basically right

so obviously people want to watch him

because they want to be like that right

like that's like the person that they

want to take cues from and [ __ ] right

but why vows you know what i'm saying i

it's because he packages it correctly

um i can't think of one

but um

vashta is really good at rhetoric i i

think he's good you are really good haas

but i can tell you don't practice you

you just no i don't yeah

you could tell vasha's in front of a

mirror perfecting it

right yeah dude let me tell you next

content i want you to watch this on

stream because it's [ __ ] you will never

see walsh in this state watch what is

your next content

you know you know when someone tells you

you don't practice that means you should

never practice like you're doing good

really that's your style's off the dome

right yeah all off the dome dude but

listen

um

watch

vosh versus jackson hinkle

that's how i found out about jackson

yeah and dude i have never seen voss

take a bigger l ever even for me even i

didn't give him as much

what's that is that stream content or

alone

it's stream content actually i don't

know for your chat it's it's about um

uh intervention and it's about just a

debate about like uh

syria it's about syria something that

happened in syria

all right someone link me in chat i'm

down i'm down yeah mods link link zerka

the link to the uh to the youtube

jackson versus walsh dude it's the crazy

you can watch it alone or on stream it's

up to you but dude you will never see

vaj take a bigger l than this video

yeah

it's [ __ ] crazy like he

i mean he rage quit and dude

i'm gonna be honest when it comes to

foreign policy and especially defending

yourself his takes are kind of

very

collectivist if you know what i mean

bosch

yeah he's very like like you know what

he said to destiny that

if someone's being jumped

and like beating the six guys are

beating the [ __ ] out of you that you

shouldn't defend yourself with a weapon

what

yeah he there's a debate where he has

with destiny and he says if you're being

jumped by people you don't know that

want to hurt you

uh you shouldn't defend yourself with a

weapon because uh

that's killing someone for a beating

it's just a beating just take the

beating

that's the funniest debate i've ever

seen and i remember i'm like i know

destiny's gonna check him destiny

checked him and washed double down

triple down quadruple down and he never

let go that position it was the funniest

[ __ ] i've ever seen yeah someone linked

to the debate

yeah

yeah

and do you know what you know why he uh

thinks

you can't defend yourself with a gun do

you know why

no why

it was a kenosha debate exactly yeah

yeah um

basically uh

he wants to protect the group you know

the the fact that you'd be a fascist to

defend yourself

and it's very yeah it was very dude you

know what dusty literally said what

about if it was a woman and vosh froze

and it was really intense right dude

that you know what's so weird is because

it's like

those groups that are those like groups

that are doing it

don't even have group values because if

you have group values

you're not going to turn in wild on and

[ __ ] swarm on someone you know what i

mean like if you have group values

you'll learn to

like respect more

you're telling me three hours four hour

debate and it's all worth watching

um is it that long i remember watching

it live

oh oh never mind the ending i think he's

alone with it okay yeah this is a i

don't think it's that long yeah let me

see yeah it ends at the one hour and

40 minute mark

yeah i think uh jackson's gonna do good

for himself to be honest yeah dude i

agree i agree he's he's awesome

you know and dude let me tell you i

don't

dude you want to know how many friends

online i have

yeah

counting you it's just

let me just make sure i'm not going to

offend anyone i'm not a friend i'm an

ally bro yeah yeah you know what i mean

same thing

maybe

two other people

those are not your friends those are

your atlas yeah two other allies i

literally have two others you jackson

and then there's a guy on youtube you

don't know him um

um

i met

jackson watching the debate i didn't

know who he was i just knew that vosh

was going to debate it like a tanky guy

oh yeah logo too yeah logo and countbot

yeah but those guys are not on twitch or

youtube but those are

yeah those those are really good friends

too

yeah there's people on twitter i know

but you know for like eight dollars on

amazon you could have a meme hat of like

a communist red star kind of militant

hat and throw it on when you're winning

and [ __ ] where are your optics bro where

are where are your props you know you

need it when you're i don't know dude it

makes sense because i'm like the first

tanky guy that's getting this big

but

one of the reasons i didn't get i got

this big in the first place is because i

know how to have a more normie aesthetic

you know what i mean

yeah but

people get scared people get scared of

like the larp you [ __ ] people really get

scared listen for some reason

thumbnail's huge important if i saw you

with like a [ __ ] mao hat i would

click faster you know really

if you have or let's say you have a red

star hat that's [ __ ] hilarious bro i

ordered one from from amazon for myself

why didn't you order one

actually you guys don't like to joke

around you guys meme hard no i i know i

don't know

damn you're you're kind of right because

for me it's cringe but

for these new twitch normies like

it's it's thematic it's thematic top

needs to be dark olive green like

military tank top we need the optics to

be flawless dude

okay

yeah you know i put [ __ ] headbands on

when i go hard like i'm [ __ ] i treat

this like i'm i actually treat this like

i'm a coke kid no no i do need more

props so like i don't know if you're

watching i have one i only have one prop

and it's this this is my only prop

that i have for the stream you know i'm

i'm not gonna yeah what is that that

always looks like

so it's something

it's called a knob carry it's an african

walking stick

yeah i think it's for hunting they use

it to hunt like animals

but that has nothing to do with tanky

[ __ ] you're more of a caveman than a

tanky when it comes to optics you know

that

yeah i know but like here's the thing

dude

you're the kind of guy who thinks obama

shouldn't wear a suit and tie because

you don't believe in opt-in no no let me

tell you why i control my optics dude

let me tell you why i don't want people

to know me

off the bat this is what i want people

to do all right oh you want them to hear

the take first i get it yeah right off

the bat i want them to see what kind of

human being they are i am and like see

who i am and then after i want them to

find out my politics

dude let me tell you if i had your tanky

politics in my brain

i would literally have a full costume

and have 10 000 viewers the next day

debating someone but

you know what video i'm known for right

that i got viral like i like a million

views or 700k views what

um you don't know about the mongol video

no

really

how many views

700k

where let me show let me show you

yeah dude this is what people know me

for

this is literally this is what this is

what um

this is what [ __ ] got me big

this is what actually got me big like i

actually [ __ ] got huge from this uh

guy who made this video on youtube

it was a clip of me

and that's that's that's what literally

quadrupled

everything my youtube my discord and now

that's what set it all in motion is this

video let me show it to you

i don't know so dude some viral clips

get me zero new followers it's very

weird for me dude no people everyone

knows me for this so what people know me

as is the mongol guy people know me as

like the mongol guy the genghis khan guy

oh my god

this is so good

have to be

dude that's what i'm known as that's

what i'm

what is

dude this is gold

yeah dude and that's what people know me

as so like if anything i would get like

a mongol costume

in england

what the

bro this

this clip is [ __ ] bro it ends so

toxic

wait i forgot what did it end with

never mind just never show that on

stream oh the canada thing

no something else

yeah i'm not going to show it i don't

what does it end with people were

interpreted as like racy but you were

trying to say like why are you being uh

why are you being against these people

yeah no dude i know like yeah you're

being like uh hey like we we fend for

ourselves kind of thing

dude those are youtube days that's i

never show it on stream because it's

from youtube but

yeah but that's literally how i got

famous

and i had no idea

dude this was in july and all this stuff

happened in like april or march so it's

like way after it just became viral

but you know what i know now for a fact

there's so much other

what's that

yeah yeah yeah yeah but i have a lot of

content that

yeah i had no idea i just realized i

don't even know who the [ __ ] you are

this is so weird

yeah dude there's there's a lot of

content that i have that is just gonna

go viral

that no one knows about

you know but yeah that's your girl

what's that

girl coming right now

what girl

you said a girl's coming oh yeah let me

let me message her

i forgot dude what a [ __ ]

what a [ __ ] repair

yeah it wasn't supposed to be like at

you know

7 30 or 8 or whatever so

let me get the um

dude do you have an electric shaver

yeah

buzz just your shoulders the contours

look bigger they look more like boulders

with the lighting yeah why do you have

hair on your shoulders bro bro i got

hair all over

you know how much you got you know how

much different it looks like the muscles

connect when you cut the air off like if

anyone's done that yeah i mean

i don't know

yeah i i [ __ ]

chat always made fun of me for that i

showed them before i shaved my shoulders

and then after and they literally said

dude you gained 10 pounds of muscle what

the [ __ ] and then they're all

apologizing [ __ ] i'm like i told you bro

shoulders shouldn't have hair on them

because they connect more if they have

no hair like the lighting hits it better

yeah

but nobody gets that people like oh it

looks like the same dude there's only

one thing i fear for my streaming career

when i go bald and it's gonna come

no you have a beard you can just rock

that no i know but like i'm scared that

like

because no one knows what i'm gonna look

like bald i even i don't you know

so i'm worried about that big time you

can't imagine

i can a little bit but like i'm worried

that it's gonna change everyone's dude

being dude everything's about identity

on stream right slicker is known as the

bald guy

just because he's bald you know what i

mean you take finesse right or anything

no oh you don't even care well yeah i'm

i don't care

but

yeah dude

that [ __ ] works by the way

then but dude the hormonal [ __ ]

dude you know i take dutt

i take them

it kills 90 of my dhc in my body

what

yeah no finasteride's only like 65 70

right and that doesn't kill your sex

drive anything mine's mine's made for

prostate cancer my drug it's way

stronger the [ __ ] and you just take that

for your hair

yeah yeah it's the most popular drug in

korea do you not know anything about

uh asian markets

it's most popular have you noticed an

improvement

yeah even my chat did but i don't know

i'm not scientific about it you know all

i've noticed is my head look blacker

they're like you know my family members

were like whoa your hair got blacker and

i used to be patchy i'm less patchy you

know i'm patchy as [ __ ] right now even

on the sides and everything

yeah you know what's cool since you're

the masculine roll which is way cooler

than the pretty roll yeah being bald

will still suit you that's that's what

i'm thinking too i think being already

if you're pretty like the pretty boys

and stuff then you go bald that's that's

a nightmare yeah

yeah but when you're masculine like

chicks forget that you're bald because

they're you're masculine right

yeah yeah that's true

that's true i mean like nothing's worse

than a soy boy going bald right

yeah yeah that's facts

dude if i went bald i know exactly what

i'd do

i would crank so much this is if i if i

can just go bald and it will there will

be no harm to my growth or my stream or

anything then i don't give a [ __ ] i'll

be fine

you know

and your chatter said topical detastery

potentially no dude the topicals believe

it or not are still not studied so you

could be risking it it's better to

ingest it the only topicals that i've

used and i don't recommend this i dude i

love this expensive product it was a ru

eight something

and uh and finasteride dude have you

even tried or excuse me uh rogaine um

yeah i did i did two years ago i tried

it and um it just was not sustainable

just doing that every especially like

doing it because you know you have to do

it twice a day right you have to do it

before now

people [ __ ] up because they don't dry

their hair with a blow dryer after if

you dry your hair with a blow dryer

after you put on rogaine it works ten

times better and you add some micro

needling you get thirty percent more um

dude let me tell you something dude

nothing's better than minoxidil like you

are missing out dude ah i do that's too

much work

dude you know i spend a lot of time on

my hair right like just making it sure

it's like

um

it's gonna look good it's not gonna look

messy combing it and [ __ ] i i don't do

it that much for like today when i wake

up but like especially i'm after the

shower and you know what that cucks my

stream a ton if i could just wake up

bald and not have to care i could

literally stream like way longer and

like just not worry about i could

literally just wake out of bed and just

go live you know what i mean

right right right

but i

i just don't get how you don't want more

blood flow to your scalp using minoxidil

roses it gives me water retention

that's such a lie right no it didn't i

got a lot of water retention when i was

taking it 99 of water retentions always

comes from slipping up on diet [ __ ]

up with diet no i had the same diet i

just had that [ __ ]

no i'm saying your diet was [ __ ]

no it was the same

okay

yeah

oh [ __ ] you know what's [ __ ] up

i ordered food and they probably just

left it at the door they didn't even

knock and it's been there for hours let

me see

how are you like lawyer andy and you

forget sure that's so weird

that is so [ __ ] up

that is so [ __ ] up dude

but yo wait you give me a favor yeah go

grab your electric shaver for chat right

now bruh i do know

dude i use it i use it for my [ __ ] um

buzz off your shoulder no no i use it

for my pubic hair

oh my god bro we don't give a [ __ ] about

your weird takes bro shut the [ __ ] up

why did you guys it's dirty i'm not

gonna put that [ __ ] on my

you know what i mean

how's it dirty it's your car

my pubic hair

what the [ __ ] kind of take is this bro

this is what tanky is

you know i'm scared to shave any of my

hair on my body

because i i feel like it'll make me

weaker you know what i mean

i just like to keep everything

dude can you just here how about this

i'll give you [ __ ] 10 subs if you

just do it on stream right now when you

see the lighting hit the delt and the

delts connect more you'll actually be

impressed yeah i'll make a mess here i

don't want to clean this [ __ ] up i'll do

it enough just like make a mess you have

a few strands bro dude when i when it

tonight i'll do it before i get in the

shower we want to see it as content bro

chad spam it

come on

how can someone be shy it's a shoulder

bro

no i don't want to shave right now

what a [ __ ] dude chad's asking at

least do one or do do one one buzz we

just want to see one buzz but it's gonna

fall all over and i you know i don't got

time to clean this [ __ ] up your highest

viewed clip bro

bruh i know it won't it really won't

dude i'm

yeah my [ __ ] clips and that only get

like 100 views now

someone said zurka is not an arab yeah

i'm not i'm albin

what does that have to do with anything

someone in the chat just screamed that i

don't know why the [ __ ] dude you know

what they say they say i'm not an arab

they just say i'm faking it

what they're like yeah you're not

lebanese

i mean you do

what would you be then like what do they

think you are they just think i'm like a

regular like white guy in america

oh really i i don't think i would think

that about you actually you do sound

like a white guy if i close my eyes

you sound like a white oh my god what

does that even mean

you sound like you're [ __ ] doing it

support when i close my eyes bruh shut

the [ __ ] up

you farm in the chat

no no dude everyone says i sound like

you

and i don't get that either

because you know why

you no let me tell you what you know

what

i i talked to my cousin the other day

and they actually sound like you

that's good we have that new yorker

style right no it's not that dude it's

like

when we when we talk

we don't know i don't notice it you

probably don't notice it either but we

have just this we have

no

i don't notice it right now but when you

start doing anna

here's the truth

that does remind me of me because i know

exactly you're swaying thinking of [ __ ]

to say

and

i don't know your bullshitting skills

are that high level dude like you can

[ __ ] a conversation for two hours

bro like

you could be a politician dude

you know the funniest thing this guy

does yo is someone will be like house

you know your problem is just you you

just don't have a girl in your life and

you're bitter and you're angry and house

will be like listen the truth the truth

about anna you don't even let them

finish and you immediately go to the

truth and i've never ever seen you let

someone say something you always

interrupt it's the funniest thing

because your ego's like [ __ ] this [ __ ]

dude i ca everything i say i come up

with on the fly

yeah that's good that's good yeah no

people are so weird they're like yo if

he sounds like circle that means he

watches circle dude he watches me

because he already thinks and sounds

like me you ever thought of that when i

watch a when i watch um

uh destiny i don't watch destiny to

learn to speak fast i speak adhd fast

that's why i watch destiny right yeah

yeah looking on my stream they're like

yo they sound like you i'm like because

they don't want to hear hassan slow

motion

no [ __ ] right

like yeah some brains work different

right even you you go point by point in

an accelerated manner and then you fight

if anything when i'm debating

i feel like i get a lot of um

my style and my tone

from

there's this news anchor

his name's george galloway he's a uk guy

and just like

i channel his energy i don't know why

you watch uk news no it's just george

galloway he's based

bro uk is the cringiest place no dude

he's like a scottish based guy he's like

a trust me

he's like a based scottish guy

yeah someone said house and circus seem

nothing alike yeah yeah well you know

what's funny when we compare the

streamers we're very alike but that's

that's what i tell people is like it's

just twitch it's just like on twitch

there's it's mostly i don't know what it

is honestly but it's just

i don't i did let me tell you something

dude let me tell you something i've

never laughed harder than this week and

i didn't do [ __ ] i just watched you like

dude you know i hit the dab pen and i

watched you getting tag team and you

said

he said you know if if a guy cheats you

know like have a cry and you know you

said if a guy cheats then she can cry

and then what have a pizza but if a girl

cheats

everything is weird it's

how funny that was because the reactions

and you know the whole chat's like

i actually dude

that happened in my chat the funniest

thing

is you said some weird take that nobody

understood i think you said something

like uh

honestly i haven't hooked up with a

chick in like years and some guy wrote

based question mark

and he's like i'm sure about that one i

was [ __ ] dying when i was high man

yeah don't you react to yourself beating

angus in a debate i am i am i didn't do

that yet but it's gonna that's gonna be

content dude because i didn't i still

didn't watch it i didn't see how it was

but yeah

destiny said yo can you back off me

zerka because uh he saw not only do i

beat someone a debate dude i re-watch it

and fill in more points i pause and i

pick myself up dude last night i was on

edibles

and i just [ __ ] i don't know why but

i went like dude when i'm angry i

usually talk

loud but quick right

and i feel like when i was on edibles i

was just going

i was

yelling on the top of my lungs like

slowly

i i i thought that was the most

aggressive you've ever been on stream

i it

it might just be it

bro that was 7 a.m

my [ __ ] neighbors oh [ __ ]

hold on can you react to something i

want to watch you react to how i had a

hater in my chat let me tell you

everyone said i went too far here and

let me be honest don't be like yo circus

an ally if i'm asking you to be honest

bro like literally say if it's too harsh

yeah

[Music]

i gotta debate this girl though

yeah here it is he's a lawyer for my

chat you want me to react to it now

yeah it's very quick very cool okay okay

i'll react to it quick did you get the

time stamp for the link

um

where's the screen please okay let me

get this

and just you can

you don't have to pause yeah yeah i got

i got well it's at 16 22 is that it

yeah

what's the timestamp

uh shouldn't it come ready when you

click it no it comes where you last uh

watched

oh so five hours and 49 seconds get five

hours and 49 minutes

49 seconds

no

oh five 500 like 505 hours and 49

seconds yeah

okay we're right here all right let me

uh yo yo you should also keep have one

moderator keep changing titles on you

and even have titles on your thumbnails

saying reacting to hater on stream

because i realize

why did you get lazy dude

yeah change the title

mods don't get lazy push push the title

well keep the debate thing too no the

debate's still gonna happen

yeah obviously that's gonna be the

highlight of the day i'm just gonna

quickly react to this

no you don't have to change titles now

but in the future yeah you don't have to

change it now

yeah

it sounds like a porn star to me

do you share a screen on discord and

then i can hear her you were we were

just in her stream

dude i don't

yeah okay this is in the middle of

something

uh yeah yeah i'm talking

that chick the e girl that i told you

watching her was trash contact do you

watch the

royals no

so where are you getting the political

content from me from

i

i watch i watch when you did the iceberg

[ __ ] and i watch you talk about the flat

earth that [ __ ] is jokes

okay

all right so you don't know who anna is

okay anna is that girl we had on

royale's and people make fun of her

takes all the time and she is she has a

master's degree you said if someone

teaches at harvard they're a genius

right

no you asked me

jordan peterson's a genius who who is

this [ __ ] guy

if i thought jordan peterson was a

genius because he said one smart thing

and i said no

he

taught at harvard i never said the

clinical psychologist which means

therefore

i mean

i'm not saying he's a genius but he's

much more intelligent than you or anyone

in twitch chat jordan peterson is more

intelligent than me

yeah absolutely

uh we're talking about the guy who

thinks uh women shouldn't be able to

wear lipstick right

because um because that was a

hypothetical

[Laughter]

it was john john

that was a hypothetical right what was

he getting at with that

i

okay that was

i don't know i i guess what he was

saying was that

if the libs are gonna take [ __ ] this far

then

then why don't why don't the con the

conservatives take [ __ ]

the opposite direction and say

you know well actually

i think his point was why do women wear

um lipstick and high heels and

blush on their cheeks because they want

to get [ __ ] they're not doing it to be

what why why do i put rogaine in my hair

for stream

that's the dumbest [ __ ] i've ever heard

he goes women put on lipstick to get

[ __ ]

that's literally not true

like they do it for the other girls to

flex on them

like that's the dumbest [ __ ] i've ever

heard

i mean chad am i wrong why why did go

why do girls you can say that about any

that's if you go to a natural argument

you can say that about anything you

could say the reason why i bought a

gucci belt is to [ __ ] a chick

what's the point of that you could say

that about anyone

yeah you're right it was a dumb point

but that's you asked me what his point

was why is he why is a genius from

harvard making critically [ __ ]

points

and why is he defending i don't know

dude

i'm sure someone could take one

quote that you've seen

not even one hundred of hours i dare you

to find one quote that i'll go back i

mean

well you believe in the earth being

flashed

do you believe the earth is round

i don't i don't really have an opinion

on that

28 year old lawyer that doesn't have the

opinion on the shape of the earth

no because i've gone to this

[ __ ]

dude i'm humble like

i i'm a skeptic right it's possible that

the earth is flat it's possible the

earth is round what kind of law do you

practice

i'm not going to tell you that

oh why because we can find you

oh okay my bad my bad um i was wondering

how many years did it take for you to

get your law degree

it took me four years of undergrad and

three years of law school and i spent a

year writing the alsat well i wrote the

lsat twice

okay okay um chad do you believe he's i

don't know i it's hard for me to buy

you're a lawyer

i just i literally just left law school

oh do you have a job

this is he is the ultimate example for

why

i would second guess being in law school

yeah

how much do you get paid

ah dude

is everything politically incorrect to

you like what i thought you're against

the libs why is that offensive

i'm not saying it's offensive i just

don't

want to talk about how much money i make

i'm curious how much money do you make

dude i'm going to say something really

quick

if you are trying to get on stream or if

you get put on stream and you have like

a problem you're trying to resolve you

need to be [ __ ] ready you can't get

comfortable with yourself and be like ah

i don't know like you have to [ __ ]

unleash the content like everyone's

waiting

no one's here to just have a [ __ ]

casual conversation with you or to hear

your own [ __ ] voice you have to just

have meat and potatoes have something to

[ __ ] offer you know what i mean don't

just come on and have like you're

wasting time dude there's like thousands

of people or a thousand people watching

they're not here just you're not that

special you know what i mean you have to

give them something

around 70k

[Music]

but i just

[Laughter]

maybe i should watch you girls dude

oh [ __ ] are you serious right now are

you trolling

oh what do you mean i live in canada

that's like

how many years how much did your degree

cost you

how much was the degree jordy

the degree was like 100k but i'm gonna

be making like uh like two if if i were

to pursue this to the end um i like i

said i literally just left law school

so

uh i'm making 70k right now and next

year i'll be making like

90k and then i if i make a partner i

could be making

200 300k a year

how long till 200k

uh be like 35

oh my god

damn

okay that

that's [ __ ] up dude

that's a dude

yeah that's yikes

dude that's going to be 35.

how old is how old are you what 28

27.

i did the same arguments with them but i

was mad at them so

yeah

but dude i don't do if you're gonna come

if someone's gonna come and like [ __ ] on

your content and then you talk about

their own career and [ __ ] it's like

ah yikes you know what i mean

like just come

yeah

dude i know 70k is a lot

but if you're gonna go on and [ __ ] on

someone's content

yikes you know what i mean and you're

gonna act like you

yikes dude

yeah

i mean yeah

he's gonna complain about watching egos

and [ __ ]

yeah i mean it's like

which one which path is gonna earn

actual more money you know what i mean

that's sad but

watching e-girls is gonna [ __ ] earn

more money than being a [ __ ] lawyer

you know what i mean

are you in debt right now

yeah

how much

man

i don't know

you don't know how much you're into that

that's a lot of zeros bro bro

yikes this is [ __ ] brutal

oh my god

that's not what i'm saying i'm single i

don't

i'm not

out here trying to dude this guy looks

terrible you know why because he just

brought up the most embarrassing or

horrible or just like tragical part of

his life

and this guy's still trying to act like

cool and if this guy acted mad at this

point he would look better than still

trying to keep up like oh yeah it's all

good

you haven't seen anything this is the

it's going to leave a bad taste in your

stomach you're going to think less of me

after this clip

okay how how much longer is it keep

going keep going

be some [ __ ] viral god like you were

yeah i exploded you went to law school

bro you went to law school because it's

high paying you right

no i don't lie don't lie come on no

oh my god you want to be a lawyer

because you like to read and write

don't lie to us don't lie to us jordy

john i went i'm one of the few

good lawyers

no no i'm not saying good but i i

actually i in my opinion the the law is

important and

if you're going to

um

engage in in legal disputes

the courtroom is the ultimate place for

that it's it's all facts

there's no conjecture

that's that's where what

dude

this is not true

this is not true by the way like there's

so much conjecture that happens in the

[ __ ] courtrooms if you think it's all

based on facts you don't know what the

[ __ ] you're talking about maybe i i know

canada is common law too so yeah that's

not true

it's a lot of conjecture there's a lot

of like assumptions and [ __ ] you have to

make

that's where you get a teacher's salary

right

no you i mean you i do why do you have a

teacher's salary i don't even get it why

like why are you why are you so [ __ ]

broke i don't get it

like did they just tell you why why are

you so triggered because i said that oh

my god dude

you've been typing no no that's not

that's not why if we go through your

logs dirty jordy you can't take a bit of

hating from me but you look at your logs

i looked at your logs you've been hating

on me for two years tell me i haven't

been broke damn

two years you think your loves are

positive like a hype man for you i don't

mind i said one negative thing tonight

so can i say one negative thing brought

me into discord i didn't bring you i

didn't bring you i didn't bring you into

this told me that i'm [ __ ] making a

teacher seller

i know that's the truth you are

i think less to be honest

no i'm i literally left law school three

months ago when i'm making teachers so

you can write a hateful comment and i

can't start hating on you live

yeah that's kind of how being a twitch

streamer works isn't it

one thing i said you watching e-girls is

trash

and i love i think you make conspiracy

theory content

and then you bring i'm literally

complimenting you and then you bring me

into discord and [ __ ] sure go

yeah exactly i all right can i say one

bad thing you said one bad thing i i'll

say one bad thing

sure go ahead but i think being hella in

debt and wasting your whole life at

school to make 70k a year is pathetic

and um

oh

[ __ ] that's a kill shot

oh [ __ ]

damn dude that's

that's [ __ ] brutal

this guy's gonna go to sleep crying dude

jesus i want you to cry

you haters think you can just type

anything and then you come on here

i don't know what to say what kind of

lawyer doesn't know what he says you

should be filled with words if i man i

should have gone to law school i'm doing

better than you

yeah that's fine oh no

i i didn't realize this was going to

become a dick measuring contest about

who makes more money you're losing to a

lemur

how am i losing to you you said it's

going to sound like you said

you said at 35 you're making 200k i wipe

my [ __ ] with that i literally wipe my

[ __ ] with that

do you

it's on the screen

and another thing another dude

another thing dude

on the screen you have 4k subs

no we can do annual and we can do annual

if you want we can do annually

and you know what's crazy dude you know

it's crazy

in vancouver yeah and you make 70k in

debt like a loser

like you gotta fix your life up yeah

i don't i'm plus i'm not in debt

you need to you need to work on yourself

my dude all right yeah john you're

you're sick so i can't say one bad thing

you can say one bad thing i can't say

one bad thing to you

and what i said is kind of honest

right i'm being honest

uh i don't care dude you're not

you're so triggered bro

no i'm not yeah

you make more money than me sweet no i'm

i don't make more money than you jordan

it's that you're an idiot all right how

how am i an idiot you're experiencing

all this time in school

no you're spending all this time in

school going into fields on with low

demand it's like what kind of law are

you doing are you doing [ __ ] are you

what kind of law is this

i i wouldn't tell you because you're not

a lawyer bro you're just [ __ ] here to

insult me that's the truth yeah

yeah i think people like you who watch a

streamer pull 15 18 20 hour streams and

then he

and it literally puts his soul into his

streams and then takes a break by

leaning back eating a grape watching

kiana and then you write that comment i

think you're the biggest [ __ ] in

society i think people like you are the

lowest scum in society like who the [ __ ]

i'm losing it and getting two hours of

sleep every day of my life for a month

and a half and i have to read this

[ __ ] comment from a guy who's been

here so long i expect it from a new guy

but you're the scum spineless scum of

society and you come in here stuttering

like a little [ __ ] because you're not

what kind of lawyer stutters bro what

kind of your lawyer without an ego

damn

dude but this [ __ ] is facts honest to

god this [ __ ] is facts if you're a

[ __ ] chatter

y'all think you just type [ __ ] there's

no consequences like no you will be

like when you type something in chat

we streamers actually are judging you we

actually think of you

as standing by that way it's not like

just like some thoughtless thing you

know what i mean

and yeah

damn dude backseat policing for [ __ ]

streamers

the worst thing dude it's the worst

thing it's [ __ ] pathetic and you

expect oh go easy on me go easy on me i

go easy on you if you're new you're not

new here and people like you dude you

guys need a reality check right and i'm

so nice to you guys in debt

i find you people under death donated

five dollars

john you won candy chill bro okay

vaccine has dropped your iq bad low low

well like what's your point right now

that my point is you can't take

criticism my point is jordan my point is

you can't take criticism talk over me

your my original content was you

watching

e-girls is trash content so you're here

for 18 years okay so you're here for 18

hours i literally it's 2 30 in the

morning right now yo advice for chatters

when they want to backseat police

if you don't if if someone's doing good

and they're a streamer and like most the

chat is cool and they're doing fine

if you don't like the content literally

just move on

it's not all for you personally

you guys need to understand that it's

not all for you personally just because

it entered into your vision doesn't mean

it was made for you

alone

i just got home from the bar and i tuned

in

why are you at the bar

what do you mean why kind of a loser why

are you at a bar or do they pay you to

be there are you a security guard

no i was out there having a couple of

drinks with my buddies no you can't have

a couple drinks you're in debt you need

to get it together

dude he was at the bar this is

[ __ ] this guy looks [ __ ]

that yesterday was friday so this dude

went out to the bar

and he went home and he called

zerka basically and talking [ __ ]

[ __ ]

dude

that's what it's like to be lonely

honestly

damn

that is that looks so dude at least stay

home if you stayed home you would look

better because people were like oh maybe

you're busy working on something

you know

but if you actually just admitted you

went out and you you retreated back home

and now you're doing this

on a friday night

you look like the biggest [ __ ] loser

ever

dude i i

know party salary

so it doesn't matter it's i don't

i don't have a side gig

do you want to be like those buddies

you're with

as a matter of fact you know why i think

he thought that watching the egos was

cringe

because it reminds him of what he can't

get and what he's failing at getting and

he he failed to get girls at night so he

wanted to come home and just chill with

the boys and have a boys night you know

what i mean

but zerka was watching e girls and it

just reminded him of his failure that

night i swear that's why he was mad

i don't want to be like anyone i'm just

myself

those buddies you're with are they like

are they people you want to you you look

up to

they're my friends and i i would

consider them to be good people that i

how do you claim to be edge lord and

against the liberal sjws but you you

speak like one

like what do you mean if i ask you a

question and like no do you look up to

my friends yeah i don't i don't look up

to my friends i love them i don't look

up to them

yeah speak like a man jordy not all of

them no but those guys at the bar i

surround myself with with good people in

my opinion okay those guys

i would go to war with those guys at the

bar do you look up to those those guys

tonight yeah they're like uh my close

friends that i've grown up with my whole

life and wow you're still staying with

your high school friends are you a

[ __ ] are you out of your mind

jesus

having drinks with like lawyer buddies

and networking and progressing what the

[ __ ] are you doing

ah man you don't know how the real world

works okay then yeah this is the yikes

this dude's saying you don't know how

the real world works and he's super in

debt and you don't seem like he's making

the money to pay it off

it's like dude

what what real world are you talking

about

oh

okay

uh i guess you do this do you have

drinks often with your friends

on on long weekends yeah it's labor day

weekend it's friday

um

you ever having drinks and realize that

you're like

a hundred thousand dollars in debt dude

what the [ __ ]

dude ah this is [ __ ] visceral

this is visceral dude i'm not even i'm

not this brutal dude even i'm not this

brutal

if so dude i would i would have just

timed him out or something

sometimes i think i'm brutal dude

this is brutal

[Laughter]

what up jackson

uh yeah but i know i'll if i pay say

john listen uh oh yeah what's up

if i paid 10 grand

oh man

dude this is is this my toxicity that's

causing this [ __ ]

oh [ __ ]

and a year i'll be out of debt in

like five that's what i do dude

i'm the one who makes fun of people's

oh voice

god

and then i'll be making two 300k a year

instead you're getting drunk and try

talking [ __ ] in twitch chat

oh

damn dude

i can work until i'm 60 or 70 you're

going to be irrelevant

you're gonna be a 40 year old man on

twitch

you know how this is not true

you it's a ladder if you're in [ __ ]

twitch in media it's all about climbing

the ladder of media

like you go from twitch to bigger things

you know what i mean you go from twitch

to just more and more like you

it's just not true

it's not true dude

like

this is the new generation of

celebrities

[Music]

and let me tell you the truth

i seriously doubt you're ever moving up

from 70. i seriously doubt it damn

yeah that's the truth that's i know

lawyers in my city i've talked to them

and it's been seven years

and uh they're still in big trouble and

that's why you guys drink that's why

you're at the bar drinking right

dude this is a brutal truth but it is

the [ __ ] truth dude lawyers are some

of the most depressed [ __ ] people

they're some of the most depressed just

yeah muslims

you can pause it here but yeah yeah my

child gave me a ton of [ __ ] because

they're like no no don't ever just

decimate people like that that's way too

mean well i know dude this is why

this is why i don't know bad now no dude

this is why i don't feel bad

because

he people need to start understanding

that this [ __ ] is your livelihood like

you're doing this 18 hours a day

this is literally what you do you know

it's not just it's not like this is like

a side thing and you're just like all

[ __ ] around like this is literally

what you do so when you got chatters

that are just talking [ __ ]

about the content and whatever it's like

they're coming at your entire thing you

know

and i sent the clip to my brothers and

they're like dude

you have this way of talking that

seriously gonna affect someone's mental

health like you shouldn't say stuff like

that i'm like what are you talking about

they're like he will think about that

stuff because you know you're putting a

little too much honesty on the tone you

know like he'll think about it next week

you should i was like dude you know like

he's triggered i'm triggered we can you

know

yeah

damn

yeah i mean

you know what's funny if you watch my

stream i always say if you're going to

school either lawyer med school or

engineer like i'm very pro school and

stuff like that education when it comes

to the big three especially if it's high

in demand but i knew i knew if i keep

asking questions he'll say i was

chilling with my high school friends i

knew i could bait and switch hard

but uh i know because someone on discord

messaged me and he's like

no dude you know what you know why i

don't mind it that much

he's a subscriber house

dude i just think these chatters and

subscribers

should

like they should just not just

mindlessly say

criticism like if you're gonna critique

someone's livelihood then you should put

your livelihood on the line that's just

what i think

you know

is your debate now

yeah i gotta pee and then i'm gonna

debate

all right man uh peace out and dude if

if nobody gives you 10 subs everyone

chat is a pedophile see ya alright see

you later man

[Laughter]

hello all right guys i kept her waiting

so long

um

because i don't i didn't know this was

gonna happen but

damn extreme

[Music]

extreme van man thank you so much

appreciate you so much all right guys i

have to pee really really bad i'll be

right back and then i'll drag her up and

we're gonna start this afghanistan

debate

okay i'm gonna go pee

in a sec

let me let me uh let me put some oh [ __ ]

jawa appreciate you man

appreciate you

[Music]

all right

let's do this

[Music]

she

[Music]

oh she's only looking for me

only love breaks

[Music]

she

[Applause]

oh

[Music]

[Music]

oh

[Music]

me

[Music]

[Music]

so she

[Music]

all right all right all right all

alright

alright

let's actually do this

just one more bite two more bites

i'm so [ __ ] hungry man

last bite and i'm dragging her up

all right let's do it

hello

hey what's up

yeah what's up all right i'm sorry for

that um

just called and yeah took longer

if you want uh uh after the debate if

you want some uh recommendations for

like skin care or hair removal or hair

all right

uh so yeah what did you um our main

contention is basically

uh

i think the invasion was justified and

you think it was unjustified and you're

pro pull out and i'm anti-pull-out is

that pretty pretty

yeah i think yeah pretty much um

it's like i don't really know how to

excel because i'm usually like a panel

kind of person so i just wait for other

people to speak before responding

um i think it'd be easier like why do

you uh why do you personally think the

um the intervention was unjustified and

then why do you think it is uh we should

pull out and then i'll be able to

respond and then we can get going yeah

yeah i'll say a few things um

the first thing is that

um i don't believe there's such a thing

as an intervention that's purely or even

mainly on humanitarian terms

because that would obviously be

logistically impossible

um

just because you know it would literally

be the function of a world police so you

have to understand the deeper reasons

and i think the second thing is that

um

the project of state building

uh

by a foreign country is just a complete

and

just it's a complete calamity and

disaster a disaster as history shows

um

you know uh the soviet union was

attempting uh some kind of state

building in afghanistan

um

which is very clear but even even then

when the soviets pulled out that

government lasted years you know

and so it's it's even more striking just

how

much the us intervention proved to be a

complete

failure

um

and we we all we have to do is take the

self-admitted

uh intentions and claims of the

politicians

that

were responsible for the invasion of

afghanistan not just politicians but all

the other elements and

none of them actually said that they

wanted to embark on a state building

project what they said was that they

wanted to remove

what they alleged was al qaeda's base of

operations in afghanistan that was

responsible for 9 11. and we actually

don't know if it's true that

um

[Music]

the 911 was executed from afghanistan

for certain but

you know we stayed there for 20 years

even after this uh supposed mission was

accomplished

and

i just don't see how it could be looked

at as anything but a failure so yeah

oh okay cool um that was actually really

because it's very um specific things i

can respond to um on the first thing

that like true humanitarian like in

terms of intentions right like what do

states and state actors intend to do i i

agree i agree fully that like true 100

percent humanitarian like um uh

sorry i have like um i forget i'm like

i've because i've adhd so like my words

stumble a lot um true humanitarian

intervention um doesn't exist right i i

i agree um it's never the single

justification and even if it's mixed in

it's never the primary justification or

intention of the people getting involved

obviously nations are self-interested um

and the other things are just like an

add-on right it's a way to justify or it

is a um

like reason

more extra to go right um

and then so your second point you said

nation building uh history has shown

that nation building has been a calamity

right i would strongly disagree with

this specific point because while i

agree that nation building as we've seen

with the outcome in afghanistan in the

very end didn't really work

it's also worked in kosovo it worked in

japan it worked in germany it worked in

many other nations well obviously the

context and the conditions were

different

i wouldn't agree that nation building as

a whole as in like another nation aiding

in the development of another nation

directly um uh specifically after a war

um i don't think that historically

that's been much of a failure um if we

were to put like which failure versus

success against each other i think there

would be more successes and then um the

third claim you made was that the ussr

tribe nation building this is a claim i

would uh highly dispute um they did less

nation building and more nation

destruction um

because in the ussr's campaign it's been

documented that they basically their

only goal um this was like a period

where coin operations were a very like

new thing they didn't do a coin

operation which is the counter

insurgency operation they just said um

there are insurgents in those villages

and they would wholesale raise villages

um indiscriminately with bombs um and

they completely destroyed the country's

infrastructure and they didn't actually

do a lot of funding into rebuilding

anything um it was mostly the goal was

just to suppress the insurgency to

support the pdapa government and then

let the pdpa government do what it wants

right that's what my understanding of

the nature of that conflict was and then

your fourth claim was that bush and

folks didn't claim to want to do

building um i don't think that this is

true while the initial right like in the

very first few weeks and and a couple

months

wasn't very focused on 911 al qaeda the

taliban harboring al qaeda etc um like

even bush himself said that um we

literally just watched the uh john we're

going over the john oliver video bush

himself literally said um taking out the

taliban is important but building

schools is equally as important um

because the view was that like if we

build up a nation we have a reliable

ally um it just produces more good both

for us and for other people it's like a

mutual thing so like i do think that

nation building was in the cards from

the very beginning but it wasn't like

the single motivator like if 9 11 never

happened we wouldn't have gone there

right so i i agree on that point um and

then you're

sorry go ahead oh and then the last one

was just the thing on 911. um

i am not me specifically i'm not sure if

911 was orchestrated by

osama bin laden while he was in

afghanistan but we do know for certain

that osama bin laden was in afghanistan

after 9 11 and was being harbored along

with the rest of al qaeda by the taliban

okay um just really quick i'm gonna go

wash my hands i just finished my

sandwich and i'm gonna yeah be right

back

all right

uh

all right so i i didn't write all those

down but i think i can briefly recap so

the first point

is not a point of contention there's no

contention about the humanitarian thing

the second point was about

it was whether or not nation building

historically okay the history of uh

so-called nation building the third

thing was about the soviet um

soviet uh

afghanistan yeah the fourth thing was

about

whether uh bush um and folks yeah yeah

justification for the intervention the

fifth thing was finally about

uh uh

you you said that 911 was oh yeah yeah

yeah okay i remember everything okay

so so i guess we'll just do it that way

i'll just address the points under

contentious the first one wasn't so the

there are cases in which american aid

may have been decisive for um

the prosperity that corresponded to

um various states

but

i actually would dispute the claim that

um the post-war um

countries uh that were part of america's

global economic new global economic

order the bretton woods i would contest

that this was necessarily a form of

nation building because despite the fact

that america

um

aided in the development of their

respective economies

the actual foundations of the statehood

itself

um the roots of the state so to speak

had a solid foundation in the people

tribes and clans or whatever kind of

sociological angle you want to look at

it there was a there were firm roots of

statehood in the respective peoples of

those countries oh okay so you're saying

um that you're making a distinction

between uh building from zero and

building from already an established

base to build from

like in a country kind of yeah because

to me i have a kind of view of the

theory of statehood and to me states

originate in

um

people right they somehow arise and

originate in people from you know from

the level of family to tribe to gens or

whatever you want to talk like this is

really the origin of statehood itself

and

uh germany for example has an extensive

history of

a uh

the history of a state you know from the

post-world war i served in the pre-world

war one the german empire to the weimar

republic and so on and so on and then

japan obviously has its own independent

unique history of having its

its own state with a sp you know a

special relationship between the state

and civil society um

you might make the case for south korea

which was a you know as everyone knows

was just a military dictatorship that

was extremely repressive and so there

was a real conflict between the state

and civil society for most of its

existence civil society had to be kept

down and kind of repressed but

the reforms initiated by the south

korean government

i don't know exactly when they began i

think it was the 60s or 70s but there

were specific reforms

um before the political reforms by the

way about democracy a specific corporate

economic reforms in which

routes were allowed to kind of be

developed and were established and a

fundamental reorganization kind of land

reform so to speak happened and it's

really at that point that south korea

ceased to be an american puppet

altogether in a way south korea became a

competitive

almost industrial competitive country to

america

um and i just think the circumstances in

that case are really unique and specific

um

in the case of kosovo um

[Music]

i'm not sure this is an example of state

building as much as an example of like

the long-term enforcement of uh

peace and like a neutrality where

basically like although it's still

contested territory uh nato and america

are ensuring that you know that there is

some kind of status quo that is

respected there right but

um i don't really know if kosovo is an

example of like a real long-term indeed

like that maybe i could clarify um when

i mean nation building basically it's

like so when i why the reason why i

include kosovo is because kosovo as you

know wasn't a country before 1999 right

yeah it was just a part of serbia um

basically the nation building for me is

we helped uh establish a new sovereign

government we help them organize their

military their economy like um we built

the uh pillars of theirs help build

their pillars of their society to make

them a nation right good stuff but the

the whole circumstance in that case is

based on an uneasy peace right if if

there's another conflict that ever

emerges in the balkans which is likely

right i mean we know this is not

something that's going to last forever

kosovo will you know it it's just right

now an uneasy piece that is maintaining

the order so to speak or the at least

the semblance of order in in countries

like kosovo

um there's still so much ethnic tensions

and it's just really just the existence

of nato and russia and these great

powers that are really kind of keeping

that in check

um so i don't know if it could be used

as a real example now the third thing

about soviet intervention in afghanistan

to the extent of my knowledge obviously

it was a brutal war

um

[Music]

but i really

recall reading maybe you can correct me

i recall reading that the soviet union

actually did fund and help build a lot

of infrastructure in afghanistan and

they you know they had they gave a lot

of economic and you know so on technical

aid to the uh afghan government

while they were doing it i don't i don't

i've i've

interested in learning more about the

claim that the soviet union was just

waging like a war of annihilation

basically because

that's just not i'm not familiar with

that specific um

history but i still insist on using it

as an example of nation building because

what's very clear to me

as far as the history of the

afghanistan and the afghan government is

concerned is that

here you had an example of a state

that didn't have roots in the

i guess the soil of the afghan people it

didn't actually have a solid foundation

or roots in the afghan people themselves

it was a government that was exclusively

based in urban centers

um

that eventually came into conflict with

the um the real representatives of the

afghan people um

the real kind of organs of the afghan

people's uh

statehood or proto-statehood which was

the various tribal

uh clerical and so on and so on leaders

similar

and so the ussr in that case was trying

to prop up a government and artificially

create

um a state that didn't have roots in

the people it didn't have roots in the

country so i think it is a form of

nation building because

they are trying to build the foundations

of a

nation

just based on political and military

force

um

so i yeah that's why i compare it to the

americas invention

the fourth thing is that yeah i'm more

talking about the justifications for the

intervention in the first place

obviously they did make excuses for why

they wanted to stay after and they had

to explain to the american people why

but

i actually recall footage of george bush

saying before the intervention like yeah

we're not here to nation build we just

want to go in get al-qaeda and get out

and it's just not what happened you know

and then if if he said that i don't know

about it so i wouldn't be able to yeah

yeah i think i remember like a video or

something

but

the fifth thing or maybe he said that

about iraq i'm not sure i think it was

about afghanistan though

the fifth thing about

i know osama bin laden was in

afghanistan at the time but

he denied any involvement in the events

of 9 11 he specifically stated

that um

he was prohibited by the taliban

he was like he was a guest what was

saying he was a guest of afghanistan

that the he was a guest of the taliban

and the taliban prohibited him

from

you know using or engaging in any

operations against america that's going

to endanger the taliban now rationally

that that makes sense to me you know

it makes sense that the taliban would

not be interested in harboring someone

who's going to engage in acts that are

going to lead to

an intervention because the taliban knew

that you know it's

it couldn't survive one and uh taliban

officials claim

um that

they were never approached by the us

government or by these various

governments about you know what had

happened or the status of osama bin

laden and the extent of his culpability

and guilt they didn't they weren't

interested in engaging in a trial or any

kind of like real investigation they

just decided to jump the gun and invade

afghanistan completely like without

going through

any type of diplomatic or whatever um

steps so i just find it really odd even

in terms of the justification for

invading afghanistan it seems really

dubious

um yeah so i just wrote down a couple of

things so the first thing about um the

like uh basis for

just like the um

what would be like

the uh justification uh or right to

governance um is not doesn't have a good

base because it's not based in like the

roots like the it's like grassroots

right it's not from like the people this

is a a claim i would highly contest

because um the kabul government the

islamic republic of afghanistan like the

karzai ghana

ghani this was um it was a democracy um

that represented specifically attempted

to represent like the rural tribal um

population so that they would have

recognition and representation in

government and my main contention for

why that their government was

uh rightful and just is not only that

they had high approval ratings amongst

afghans their origins um so this is just

a really quick timeline you had the

mujahideen groups in the 1970 1979 rose

up against the pdp government for their

repression and mass killings um then the

war started ussr war soviet afghan war

soviets leaving 1988 um the civil war

continues until 92 when the pdpa is

finally defeated by the mujahideen um

the vast majority of mujahideen groups

come together called the pashwa accords

um pashawar accords where they form a

government called the islamic state um

um

uh a couple factions namely um

hekmatiers faction and like the gr like

omar who formed the taliban they split

off because they said the islamic state

wasn't going to establish full islamic

law which they really did not like so

then the second civil war began and then

that new islamic state was uh mostly

defeated and it became the northern

alliance in 96 to 2001 the northern

alliance controlled like the top north

part of afghanistan until 2001 and then

the united states came in and uh beat

the taliban pushed them down to 10 of

land um and then from the northern

alliance which is like the uh pred the

descendant of the islamic state and the

mujahideen is what formed the basis of

the government um

like with tajiks and uzbeks and pashtuns

coming together to create a democratic

government and in 2014 we had the first

democratic transfer of power from karzai

to uh ghani with like a dual power

system there's like a house of

representatives there was the um council

of elders and a bunch of like democratic

bodies that tried to represent as many

people as possible so that's why i think

the government in uh afghanistan that

existed um and continues to exist in the

pan shear resistance um was like based

in the people like at their behest

basically like grassroots uh if for lack

of a better term

um

and then your second claim that like bin

laden was like a guest of like the

taliban and like they specifically

didn't let him do like terrorism stuff

um this is a it's as far as i know this

isn't true um he was so he was a guest

of the taliban in afghanistan because um

the taliban in the 90s were the number

one harbor and exporter of terrorism in

the world um they had like camps where

they would train terrorists and they

would go across the

wherever they went um to do terrorism um

of a bunch of groups it wasn't just like

the taliban and al qaeda there were

others um he was given refuge and then

from like being given this refuge and

resources he was able to have like the

uh power and ability to conduct uh and

plan 9 11. um and then said the taliban

did you um for clarification just in

case i wrote this down wrong you said

the taliban weren't approached about bin

laden after 9 11. um yeah we we just

gung-ho'd went in there um

right before the invasion um the united

states uh very clearly um

on six different occasions um demanded

that al qaeda be handed over including

it bin laden be handed over to the

united states and nato powers

for trial and then whatever punishment

comes after trial

and to close their camps the terrorist

camps right and then they refused they

said that they wanted to give only bin

laden to a third-party neutral country

which

the reason why this wasn't accepted is

because they're that doesn't really

exist um uh there are no like neutral

countries in the world and they didn't

want to give over the rest of al qaeda

and they didn't want to close their

terrorist training camps this is when

the united states decided you know what

we're going to side with the northern

alliance and we're just going to

like

btfou um basically and then they

supported the northern alliance during

the initial invasion from like october

to december um taliban government

islamic emerald was destroyed a new

government was formed in 2004 and then

the story

goes on to today that's basically like

the timeline

from what i know of history

oh okay is that all there yeah yeah

okay um just to be clear i'm not really

talking about justification per se

like with what gives the state the right

to rule as much as i'm saying

what makes a state possible like what

makes a state actually sustain itself

and like maintain its existence

and it's not so much like a matter of

grassroots versus top down as much as

this is like

where does the top down authority even

if it is top down it doesn't really

matter the degree to which it's

centralized um

where what is like its real material

premise does it come from some kind of

like more organic development like maybe

as it's described sociologically like

from family to tribe to gems to you know

party whatever and then

there's just this implicit kind of

social i'm not talking about a formal

democracy like a formal

representation of the people but just

like this implicit unwritten social

contract that the state is accurately

representing the real material interests

of

um the people over it over which it

resides through

the kind of

structures and groups and kind of

sociological um

ways in which a people um

give expression to themselves right so

to me that's really kind of what

when i talk about the origin of states

obviously states are they have their

origin in violence right but

um they have their origin in violence

and they come into contradiction with

civil society inevitably but

they still come to a certain

understanding if that makes sense with

the people over they preside and there's

some kind of

harmony that's able to be established

and this is really how states are able

to

sustain themselves and emerge is that

it's a back and forth kind of dialectic

that leads to a kind of

understanding if that makes sense

um so it's not really about grassroots

versus whatever it's it's more about

like where is what is the real material

basis of this state like where is the

material

basis of the state being reproduced is

it being reproduced in the everyday

livelihood of the people and the way

they their way of life their culture and

everything or is it being reproduced you

know like artificially right

and so from that perspective

um

when i look at the northern alliance uh

in the immediate aftermath of the war um

well afghanistan did have a government

as you pointed out it was the pdpa which

survived um years after the soviet pull

out albeit until 1992 yeah with soviet

aid and they were eventually overthrown

uh by the northern alliance um

and

the issue though is that so if if we

look at the history of afghanistan um it

it needs to be understood that

for

the 20 this is true for probably the

rest of the islamic world as well um i

can't really think of an exception

maybe indonesia or whatever is different

but

it's really a kind of colonial history

right i mean um

it wasn't ever able to be colonized or

fully conquered but afghanistan was the

ground zero of different types of

intrigues and plots by foreign powers

and

the government eventually in the 20th

century

um while inheriting the previous

government

was being introduced to modernity right

the modern world so to speak through

kind of um

being a center of getting western

education technical expertise that kind

of stuff and so the actual authentic

statehood of afghanistan was it's just

unclear in the 20s

especially mid 20th century it's not

very clear like what really is the

afghan polity the afghan state

um

the question of the relationship between

the islamic world and modern statehood

in general is still unresolved like we

don't know

what a

state that

gives real

reflection authentic reflection to the

unique civilization of the different uh

countries in the islamic world is it's a

similar problem but

um the northern alliance

it seems to me the northern alliance

failed to unify afghanistan and despite

their attempts and their formal

democracy or whatever um

because

they never

and this is just kind of my theory

because i understand

i have to conceptualize and theorize the

origin of statehood like a universal

state right because despite all of the

northern alliance seemed to me a

conglomeration of the various kind of

tribal and ethnic

um and maybe religious and so on and so

on um

different groups within afghanistan but

it was never actually fully a fully

unified state a fully unified force it

was always over determined by

sectarianism um

corruption like there was a deep problem

of corruption uh

at the level of the warlords and tribal

leaders that were the organs of the

state so it's like whenever you have

this kind of widespread corruption

forget about the issue of morality i'm

just speaking objectively

um

it's because

there isn't a sufficiently strong or

respected

or recognized power of the state right

the partial um

and uh

private interests of civil society

are given precedence over the universal

interests of the state

and when this happens it's because there

actually is not a real universal state

to begin with besides on paper so to me

the northern alliance never actually

became a universal state for the afghan

people

precisely because it never was able to

enter into contradiction in any kind of

way with

uh the private interests of the civil

society that was its foundation

now the taliban on the other hand

um

have their origin in uh pakistani

schools madrasas and so on right and the

way in which they embodied the

universality of

what would be a state was through the

form of islam and

islam islamic

fundamentalism and salafism and so on

and this is what allowed them to be

elevated above

the various kind of local despite i know

afghanistan does have unique ethnic

origins and this was a source of

somewhat sectarianism but

um

at least in contrast to the northern

alliance the taliban did represent the

force of abstraction and universality

that allowed it to

um

you know uh

distinguish itself from the kind of

partiality and sectarianism and

corruption of the northern alliance

so to me um the reason why the taliban

was able to overrun the northern

alliance and um

was because of was because the taliban

was giving a more authentic expression

to

uh

the reality of afghanistan and the

afghan people i mean from an outsider's

perspective obviously they are

deplorable and horrible whatever but i'm

just trying to understand the specific

material realities of afghanistan

because a force like the taliban doesn't

just take power

because they're bad guys and there's no

good guys it's like there's an actual

reason why they are being supported aid

and armed

and

um respected by locals enough to

sustain them in a way that the northern

alliance wasn't

and as far as the real achievements of

the formal democracy created by the

northern alliance uh and the republic

islamic republic of afghanistan after

u.s intervention

i just don't know it's like

turnouts were low in in recent elections

um

it didn't seem like there was it seems

like the afghan people were more or less

indifferent uh kind of cynical about the

so-called democracy they knew the real

source of power lied in the warlords and

these various partial like there's a

really sharp contrast between

the formal afghan state which is the

islamic republic of afghanistan and just

the actual reality of how power was

being distributed and held in

afghanistan

um

you know i know i know in countries like

south korea you have a long period of

military dictatorship but in this case

it's not that you need this kind of

strong dictatorship and then the real

democracy can flourish it's just like

the democracy itself was just purely

formal it didn't actually reflect the

reality of how

the afghan people were being ruled on

the ground um

now i know there's a lot of opinion

surveys that were conducted specifically

one i have in mind is the survey of the

afghan people but i don't think opinion

surveys can give adequate expression to

the will or at least the um

the reality of a people i think you know

i can identify at least just off the top

of my head

one of the easy flaws of these surveys

is just the fact that through so many

decades of war and this was pointed out

by others the afghan people are very

used to um

telling the people that they can detect

they're talking to what they want i i

don't you know like whoever they're

talking they can perceive and kind of um

guess what which

specific interest the people asking them

represent and i don't think a neutral

survey would ever be possible in

afghanistan it's like i think in 2009

there was like a crazy survey like oh

the taliban's wildly unpopular i just

don't think it reflects the reality

um of the real

real sentiments of the afghan people now

the thing about the

export of terrorism i i just don't know

about the veracity of this the camps and

so on and so on i'm just not informed

enough or haven't been convinced that

like

afghanistan was being used as a base of

operations for global terrorism one of

the reasons i'm i'm kind of inclined to

think that is because russia had also

not recognized um afghanistan

islamic emirate of afghanistan uh

probably because the chechen separatists

were being given help there so i don't

know

but what i do know is that

um

there has never been any solid evidence

that osama bin laden was conducting the

leading the efforts or the operations uh

that would culminate in 911

they never actually found any solid

proof of that and in fact

they couldn't even

um even when when osama bin laden was on

the

wanted list the global whatever i think

was the fbi or whatever wanted list they

couldn't even state his responsibility

for 9 11 because it just wasn't legally

true it was never actually proven

legally speaking he was responsible for

other things that happened before but

not that

finally um i know there's no neutral

third party so to speak but in the case

of the conflict between the taliban

on the one hand and um

america on the other

i think you could identify

a party that is neutral between them

obviously party is never 100 neutral but

there could be a party that does not

have a vested interest

in removing the taliban and also doesn't

have a vested interest in

supporting them so i think that's what's

meant by a neutral party in that case

and

in 2001 um every almost pretty much

every single country in the world would

be listed as an enemy of the taliban

except for pakistan

so um at the time there really was no

like truly neutral country every country

was like unified against the taliban's

existence

i i kind of i understand that but as far

as the taliban's overtures to like get a

trial

uh for bin laden um

in that specific state i'm not sure if

maybe you know countries like china or

russia or maybe if that's too much oh

those countries were also um

yeah i know i know but um

uh india but they although they're

completely anti-al-qaeda obviously

they

probably

um

they probably are interested in

maintaining some kind of balance

geopolitically so that you know america

just doesn't just come and just kind of

take afghanistan they probably have a

vested interest to have

a fair and more neutral hearing than at

least america would i think

um

re just real quick um for the uh

al qaeda bin laden planning 911 thing we

we do have evidence that um

uh his men and the people around him he

was offered presented a modified plan in

night all the way back in 1996 while

they were in afghanistan um so we do

know that um the the seeds for 9 11 were

done and planned in afghanistan and the

reason we know that he was there is also

because uh the taliban admitted it they

said that we do have him

like the the whole the basis of the

a premise of the conversation of to hand

him over to begin with necessitates that

they

had him in in their possession within

their like jurisdiction oh no i i um

i know that bin laden was there i mean

he he didn't deny it no one denied it

but what i'm calling into question just

because i really haven't been provided

solid evidence ever was that he planned

911 from afghanistan and that 911 was

orchestrated from afghanistan

um here i got um it's just quick just

for reference if you want to read it

later it's an article talking about um

uh uh khalid uh muhammad uh presenting

the plans in 1996 to him

uh

but the this was um

i think the plan was probably discovered

from khalid muhammad in interrogation

right

um i would assume so yes yeah and that's

why i don't know

i would call into question the

reliability because

these these were facts that were um

discovered

under interrogation by someone who was

already captured and

probably tortured right

so um as far as i know i i don't think

muhammad was one of the people we like

torture tortured yeah i don't know

either but i just know there's like a

history of that

um also i probably should have

interjected um i'm having a hard time

remembering all the points you brought

up i forgot to write them down um

uh

the i think you the vague idea was

basically that like the islamic uh

republic of afghanistan didn't have an

actual like um

like it wasn't ever truly actually in

control right it was all like um

essentially like a facade right it was

bound to fall apart um

i would i would

i don't really agree that much i would

agree a little bit because obviously

without the united states backing it up

it couldn't last right um but this is

just like uh

it's poor unorganized um they

the if they're given help and then they

rely on that help for a long time of

course if you revoke that in a very

short amount of time

things are not going to go well for them

right um and a big reason why people

gave up so fast wasn't because they

didn't like the taliban it was more so

that like the means they were used to to

pushing back against the taliban were

gone so fast and they were um the a a

was underfed underpaid um

that their morale was just so low and

they didn't have any support that they

the logical thing for individuals was to

give up that they they couldn't fight

back which is why the most trained

people um are the ones in the pan shear

resistance right now the commandos who

um were like the most successful part of

the a a who rarely ever lost a fight but

there just weren't enough of them to

fight back against the taliban because

the taliban were about 70 000 strong and

the commandos only had about 23 000 of

them um so

sorry i don't mean to enroll yeah

basically the taliban um

never controlled land through people

granting it to them or being okay with

them or liking them generally the

consensus is that it's through violence

and fear um and not be sort of like uh

oh all states implicitly the threat of

violence blah blah blah blah i mean like

explicit like do this or i'll shoot you

in the head kind of thing um

like that's why they were able to

control like 90 percent of the country

and basically almost beat the northern

alliance well it wasn't because the

northern alliance wasn't the more

popular faction if you were to ask like

a pole of afghanistan who you support

they'd probably support the northern

alliance it's just that they didn't have

enough soldiers like men to fight um

they were just militarily outnumbered uh

by a kind by a by uh a faction the

taliban supported by a state pakistan

um

yeah i mean um so

when it comes to um

the kind of i think it's important to

kind of have some kind of theory of

military i know

you're probably you probably think it's

like oh it's ideological but they study

him in american mao kind of like mao's

theory of like how do

guerrilla forces

um

succeed how do when when you get rid of

like the

modern militaries which in afghanistan

these are not modern modernized

militaries like how does a military

power succeed logistically and so on

like where does it get the numbers to

recruit from how does it feed itself how

does it clothe itself and this is by

firmly implanting itself in the people

now just to be clear

i don't think the taliban arose to power

democratically i think it's very clear

the taliban arose to power

um under the threat of violence and and

fear and it and it's not so much that

i'm saying that this is just the

implicit one but that this was the

foundation of a new state in afghanistan

um and every state has its origins

ultimately and this such um

this such violence like i have no doubt

that the afghan people i think one of

the issues here right is that

a universal state is and and i'm

speaking saying universal within the

confines of a nation or at least some

kind of

civilization right some kind of like

we're calling it afghanistan it's really

hard to like is afghanistan a nation is

it

it's really tricky business but

at least as far as a universal state is

concerned one of the issues about

being able to discern where

people's true attitude and relationship

to a state is is that

people can only give expression to their

will collectively through a state

right

um

a people's will is just it's not just

the sum total of um

individuals feelings

uh individuals in terms of how they feel

are not so much concerned with

um the state as much as they're

concerned with their own lives and how

they themselves are going to survive and

like how they themselves will support

their family and then maybe from family

it's going to be tribes so there's

already a determinant level of

interest within afghanistan i think one

of the reasons the taliban was so

successful it's not so much that you

know

it was necessarily like extremely

exceptionally popular as much as it just

was universal it was the only force in

afghanistan

that

um

was universal enough with that had a

cause based in something universal

enough to elevate itself

above the private interests of civil

society

so from that perspective

um i don't think it's like a coincidence

or an accident that

the conventional methods of repelling

the taliban failed it's just because

people

did not have a state a universal state

to oppose to the taliban's universal

state because the northern alliance was

not

really an authentically universal state

for the afghan people it was a

conglomeration of disparate

private interests that never was able to

rally people to some kind of universal

site of unity um

now but one of the things that

makes me kind of

um

a little bit just skeptical also is that

a big rallying point for a people in

this case could just be okay we're

against the taliban like that could be a

source of deep unit if the taliban were

so like extremely

unpopular and only had their i don't

doubt that they ruled by fear and

violence but if it was only based in

that then i you know you'd think that

that alone would be a like a force of

universal

um

of uh of the universe that would itself

could be the foundation yeah universal

state you know just being against

the taliban that could elevate

some kind of interest above all of the

local and disparate interests like

enough to the point of of rallying the

afghan people but

i just questioned because we were there

for 20 years and we had 20 years to just

i'm not saying maybe you maybe you'll

try make the argument that like okay we

needed more it has to be like you know a

century or

50 years or something but

it's like there has to be a way to

measure qualitative progress and i don't

think there was any qualitative progress

as far as the like development

of a basis of the islamic republic of

afghanistan in the afghan people and the

and it acquiring some kind of semblance

of being a universal state i i don't see

any qualitative progress in these 20

years as far as

that happening and if there was there

would have at least been like

more resistance than what was seen

um well yeah um my my contention is i

think that base was there so ideolo

ideologically i do believe from all that

my readings and the um

um yeah all my readings all the things

i've read um they were ideologically

unified against the taliban right

everyone in afghanistan did not like the

taliban

um here's a fun fact almost half the

taliban are foreign fighters they're

from pakistan um they're pakistani

pashtuns um

uh

um which helps aid that shows that like

not

they're very small group um and only

about half of them are actually from

afghanistan um is sorry um

is there like a source i have no idea

yeah yeah yeah this was measured in 1998

um

and i don't know if there would be a

reason that their makeup would have

changed over time especially as sympathy

within afghanistan for the taliban has

gone down it would be sort of weird that

if like

less people than before like the taliban

that they would have more people from

afghanistan in their ranks let me give

drop it in a second

yeah well i think one of the reasons why

if that was true then it could have

changed was because the american

occupation

and at that point it would the i don't

see how the taliban could have an

existence beyond recruiting locally

i don't know if

how much

um free wiggle room there is to just

import all of these foreign fighters

um uh well it wouldn't be

they're imported from not that far away

um since the countries are yeah so some

some people are telling me that the

study

has been debunked and that they didn't

properly translate the pastor

uh someone in my chat saying that are

you aware of that i've never heard of

anyone bringing up this contention so i

wouldn't know how to respond okay yeah

were reported to make up 40 percent of

the army

um

[Music]

so it says here a 1998 document by the

u.s state department confirms that 20 to

40 percent are pakistani

um

that the other pakistani nationals were

regular pakistani uh soldiers

um

i think there's a few things that i want

to ask you about

uh as far as this claim is concerned i

don't know how to like confirm how many

were actually pakistani

um or not but the pashtuns were also in

afghanistan too right no it's the

largest ethnic group in afghanistan yeah

right

and

in terms of the border with pakistan

that afghanistan has

the past tunes that are in pakistan

there may be like a formal border right

between the states but these people

are very similar to each other in terms

of their way of life and their culture

and their kind of

sense of common

uh

reality i would um

so maybe but there has been a pretty

hard border i'm not hard as it like

impossible to like but there's been a

pretty solid border for a long time

mostly because of

people like the british um the british

have caused a lot of these problems very

far back um

uh

the

we can see in opinion polls of pashtuns

in afghanistan that they are like very

supportive

if not the most supportive group of the

uh islamic republic out of any group

and uh like pakistani like national

nationalists who are like pashtun and

super pro taliban are like um not very

common in uh afghanistan there is like a

cultural like uh disconnect between the

two if they are ethnically very the same

um

like ideologically uh specifically about

the taliban obviously there are like

cultural like similarities because of

like how close they are um

and also um i'm trying to go back it's

been like a little bit of a while

because we're sort of like not to call

it a tangent but like it's been like a

little bit since the original point

um

oh man

uh

oh yeah so like the ideological like

basically unanimous belief was

anti-taliban

pro-government in afghanistan the

problem is that there is um not a way in

a means for people and mass to express

that through defending themselves right

because um i would say it's a lot of our

fault right we made them too dependent

on us um even that um

potential was there to create powerful

people's militias and the a a uh the

policy was really poor in structuring

the a a so discipline was low pay was

low food was low morale was low right so

even if they hated the taliban they

didn't really have the means or morale

to fight the taliban and we even uh when

the a a was falling um post doha

agreement um the

all across afghanistan militias were

popping up left and right so like you

had ismael khan

rise up and whatever but they were

overtaken by the taliban because they

didn't have enough support um they were

basically just

groups everywhere who were um not

unified because they were in separate

areas and they were all surrounded by

the taliban from all sides so people had

the will they didn't have the means

which is why the people who have the

means are in panshir right now fighting

the taliban and right now they're doing

pretty good they've killed a few

thousand of like taliban that have tried

to siege the valley yeah i mean um

so

i so i there's two things the first

thing that i just want to ask is

how is that hard border actually

enforced on the ground like what is

really there's like a fence and

everything between

pashtuns in afghanistan and pakistan

uh yeah afghanistan actually

um it doesn't make a lot of sense to me

because the ease with which people are

moving back and forth because we know

that pakistan has

sorry the taliban has its origins and

people who were educated in pakistani

madrasa so clearly there was a very

um loose um

border between them

for trade and like movement but um

uh in terms of like uh because there

were like checkpoints people would cross

the border through checkpoints it

wouldn't just be like

open i don't know it seems to make more

sense to me that it's one of those

borders that's just more informal and

that the way peop the way people's

livelihood is on the ground like it

reminds me of like the border between

azerbaijan and northern iran it's kind

of

you know people's way of life depends on

just treating them as not a hard

distinguished territory like for the

people living there you know

um

yeah it's a it's a really it's i think

it's known to be a really porous border

in general

um but i would i would agree it's porous

as in like fighters from the from

afghanistan and fighters and pakistan

sneak past the border all the time but i

do think that that border as far as we

know from like the literature there is

still an ideological divide on each side

of the border um so even if the border

is porous for like people who want to

sneak past there is still a difference

in belief

in afghanistan to me measuring that is

really difficult though because again

opinion surveys i don't think can really

give accurate reflection up to

you know what that is

um but another thing why would you think

why why um why do you believe that again

yeah because to um again a people can

only give

uh representation as far as their will

is concerned through either some kind of

universal state or through like the seed

or embryo a proto-universal state like

in this case

um sorry i don't mean to like be

ideological but like kind of like mao's

uh pla and during the civil war in china

right this is not a state but it's like

a universal force that is giving

expression to the people or like in

lebanon there's the hezbollah and then

you know there's there's other examples

um

i'm trying to find like a more neutral

one but

maybe like yeah but anyway

um in the case of um

this

so an opinion survey

um to me is going to be recognized and

this is what critics of the survey of

the afghan people have said

was that the afghan people a close study

of them will see that because of this

history with the soviet occupation stuff

and the various conflicting interests

within afghanistan

people are very keen on like the

technology they don't just answer the

question point blank they're like okay

who is asking me this and why like where

are they coming from what's their vested

interest in this or not so much vested

interest but like

like what is this for right they're not

going to just answer these questions and

just

reveal exactly what's on their minds so

the reason why i would believe that

afghans and large aren't just like lying

to people especially when they're in

areas of safety and they have no like a

reason to lie especially when they're um

assured that it's anonymous pollsters

don't rat people out

pretty universally um is that opinions

have changed over time in ways that are

not

either

convenient to the government or even

nato

so people are willing to speak out if

they their opinions have changed um for

example satisfaction with democracy has

gone down because of like the increased

violence the um decreased accessibility

because of stead violence they are less

like satisfied with the government well

i i think so there's there's a few

things right um the first thing is i

don't necessarily think they're outright

lying but i just think like it's all

about angles like what am i going to

play up more in terms like people

obviously a person is a complicated

person right they are they're all very

mixed in their feelings right so it

depends depending on who they're talking

to they're going to exaggerate and

or at least if it's like a survey it's

they're checking well that's why they um

that's why they ask very specific

questions yeah yeah yeah so are you

satisfied with them yeah yeah yes or no

and yeah but in that case i think that

you can't really say that it's um

just because of it it's

it's changed over time that that means

like it's

reflecting the truth because the war

as far as these local territories are

concerned and so on and the the overall

what's it called

the

kind of

geopolitics i don't know what to call it

the strategic overall strategic

situation of afghanistan has also

shifted and changes like recently the

government has become weaker the taliban

had made a lot of headway um

uh and then other times the taliban was

much weaker right so and the government

and the occupation forces were stronger

so the tides of war are ever shifting

and changing especially at the local and

village level it's like people

understand that there are various like

if you're a normal person in afghanistan

you're treating all of these people as

private interests right there's the

americans and the governments and the

warlords and the taliban and i have

obviously yeah yeah it will come like

and and people to survive they have to

appease these various interests and kind

of like deal with them just to get on

with their lives basically right so

although the polls are anonymous and

there's all these guarantees i just

think people just from the fact that

they're detecting that this is coming

from oh these are the

government people or the americans i'll

just tell them what they want to hear

because it seems like that's a culture

like for example during the soviet

occupation

um

the afghan people on the ground like at

uh in terms of the village level would

not just directly resist the soviets it

would be very peaceful get on with their

day

and they would be friendly with the

soviets and then at you know at night

when the soviet soldiers are sleeping

they'll like

they'll slip their throats or whatever

right so it's like

in afghan culture through its history of

war it seems like

there's just this culture of having

like different faces depending on

different contexts

well that's the importance of like the

democracy that was established right all

of these different disparate groups and

like people who are disconnected because

of how rural the country is now are

connected under a unified body where

they can express their voice and their

contentions and again through this the

polling which i i still don't think that

these like these um critiques of like

afghanistan in terms of polling are

enough to say that these results aren't

true is that like um they consistently

show that like uh for example people

used to be much more sympathetic towards

armed like to the taliban but that's

gone down as the taliban has ramped up

their violence so even if we didn't have

polling we could even like uh intuit

that the taliban is inflicting more

violence on innocent people people are

probably going to be less

sympathetic to them um and

also that um

oh man i'm like my train of thought uh

uh

i i don't want to be this isn't i'm not

trying to be rude it's just you you said

you said it's like so much it's hard to

like keep track um

oh man

but we just like pull it back for a

second if we if we like really don't

care about like this specific poll right

if you think that it's like afghans are

too distrusting uh would it be would it

be distrusting would be a good way to

characterize i think what i all i'm

trying to say is that i don't really

think afghans consider

the um

the government as like a universal

interest i think they treat it as like a

private and partial thing specifically

as mediated by local warlords so they

treat it as a private interest is really

what i would expect

why would that be different than

everyone else in the world i'm pretty

sure most people would view their

government as such that it's like just a

body that governs them no yeah i get

that i mean even in the u.s we say oh

it's the government but um

government for them means the local

private interest in this case the

warlords and the whoever else happens to

be power that's presiding over them so i

don't really think they just see the

government as like

like and even even even though we

consider the government to an extent a

private interest in america it's still

the american government it's the

universal american government but well

this is a thing i would problem that was

probably gone down over time so like i

would war lords and like uh tribal

allegiances were have been like a thing

in afghanistan which is why they were

the civil wars right um

since 2001 these like lines have slowly

like

uh been less of a problem the like

warlords people like to call them uh had

have gotten less and less power over

time because as they're autocratic and

like more like i would say more

autocratic because it would be

completely autocratic um control of

their local areas goes down because the

people are given suffrage in the larger

government that has control over these

local individual leaders and now they

have governors and they have

representatives and they can have the

like federal government take care of

them in a way that like they can uh

circumvent their like local leaders

um which is like something they seem to

be very uh in favor of

um so like i don't think there's a big

reason to distrust these polls because

the conditions of afghanistan are pretty

ripe for pretty accurate polling

especially when these were taken when

the taliban controlled only like 19 of

land and 10 percent of people um and

even so the pollsters were brave enough

to go into taliban territory and

provinces and pull people who lived

under the taliban right but okay sir

glenn no i'm not that that's oh yeah

yeah i just need to say like it has to

be understood that people are

anticipating not just the present

circumstance but also the future like

will there be repercussions for me

expressing

support it's like it's just always

easier to tell the people

calling you what you perceive they want

to hear as far as survival in

afghanistan

and that makes more sense to me but as

far as the democracy in afghanistan

um

i'm actually not familiar with the claim

that

warlords have ceased to be the real

source of power under the us-led

government in afghanistan

um

yeah i mean my chatters are telling me

this uh but like do you know who um

is um or dustin he was like a really big

head honcho warlord um in the 90s and in

the early 2000s yeah well he was the one

who like stuffed taliban members in

shipping crates and killed them um

he like was literally like exiled

because he committed a crime no no i i

don't doubt that there's unpopular

warlords who are removed and also he's

very he's very popular um amongst his

like crew and like people um

the thing is that the federal government

had the power now if they

commit violence that is illegal and is

able to be proven uh

like you get the punishment right

they're no longer in control right

but i'm just the government yeah yeah

but i'm just not convinced that that is

universal in scale i'm sure there's like

there like for example that famous piece

is probably one of the many pieces that

were used to like

give expression to the fact that okay

yes this is a government

and we do have some kind of authority

but after you make this show i mean the

reality on the ground

is different right

it's still deeply corrupt it's still a

different nature of the reality of power

on the ground as compared to um

the one formally established by the

government

so i just don't see how

whatever we can call them warlords local

the big head honchos of whoever lives

there i just it seems to me that these

people fundamentally were still the ones

uh in power i mean maybe the head honcho

is now like the governor or the

the mayor i don't know what they would

be called and that dynamic would just

shift but like the whole system of civil

society of patronage nepotism kind of

corruption seeking favors uh grants like

the way that in general in middle

eastern societies it's kind of like

universal and islamic societies i don't

know how um

i don't see any evidence that this was

like

fundamentally altered under the

occupation

uh because before they were the only

ones who had local control and now there

was a giant federal government with the

backing of a world power he was able to

establish a firm like uh not quite but

mostly a uh um

a uh a monopoly on violence like that

they were in control well

i mean um

so here's the thing is that i'm not

doubting that there was like a

formal state that you're saying right

that had the backing of america and so

on yes that's true but

it still seems to me that they could

only rule on the basis of compromise

with these local people these um

warlords or whatever we want to call

them

and that they it's like

even when those people conflicted with

the rule of law they still have to turn

a blind eye because they can't upset the

delicate and real balance of power that

is me that is sustaining this government

on the ground and preventing um

chaos like even even when they had the

backing of the strongest

military power in the world and nato and

these western countries they still have

to come to these compromises of just

recognizing the law of the implicit and

unwritten law of the land because

otherwise there will be chaos and

disorder and you know that's just what's

maintaining the order i think that the

the afghan government's willingness to

prosecute and exile someone like dose

tomb

shows that this

wasn't really the case anymore that the

fact that i think people

and de facto yeah yeah i'm not saying it

was all one-sided like people like

dostoon were notorious for their

violence and excesses and so on so it

makes sense

that something like that happened but

they can still be like

you know a culture of corruption and

breaking laws without becoming like

infamous and notorious

you know people stuffing people into

crates and that kind of stuff like i

just think there's a bat it's not one

extreme or the other so to speak well

but this is why like these people became

lower they were warlords i would say i

think people continuing to call them

warlords is a little bit

weird um because they're just like

leaders of militias but they're like

formal politicians who

like draft and propose legislation and

vote on legislation and represent their

local communities and are voted into

power right but they represent

tribal family and so on interests that

are

that are it's different from the us

where like you know a politician be

becomes someone who is completely

you know form i mean a politician just

becomes part of the american state it

doesn't matter who they're married to or

who their kids are or any of that kind

of stuff and it's they're not even they

become estranged from their communities

in that sense like they become part of

the government and they no longer

there's just that clear separation right

um but in afghanistan it doesn't seem

like that clear separation exists it

seems like the informal rules of civil

society are like indistinguishable from

these

formal uh positions that these people

are holding or even if they're not

holding them formally they still have

the power

um but i would i would contest this by

saying that most afghans the vast

majority of afghans didn't live and

never have lived under the rule of

uh what we would describe as a warlord

right most afghans

aren't under those kinds of people so

even if that was true and there were

sections of afghanistan where people

like

just like lied to be favorable to the

government de facto by giving them good

polling results right the vast majority

of afghans wouldn't be like that they

would have no reason to lie yeah i think

there's

so i think

i think there's only a few exceptions as

far as islamic countries are concerned

so iran turkey

i actually don't know about turkey so

much and then

i'm i'm not too sure who else but almost

every single uh islamic society and this

is like a universal case

uh even if there's not like a directly a

warlord there is still an informal

tribal um basis of power it's based in

the

power of tribes and families and the and

whoever the head guy is is

like he's reflecting some kind of tribal

law right and this is true even in like

europeanized countries like lebanon i

mean it doesn't matter how modernized

the city is or whatever like yeah

there's a family the family or the and

the the head of the father of the family

like he's the guy who really runs things

and controls things you know

i would say a lot of this isn't provable

and a lot of it is like i'm not accusing

you of being racist but like it's sort

of this like

uh

western like eurocentric view of me like

the middle east north africa and like

islamic countries because even in like

lebanon like lebanon has a federal

government yes but like people aren't

split on like

what we would say like tribal lines or

familial lines no they they're they're

split on sectarian religious lines yeah

i just want to be

kind of correct to us because i actually

am lebanese like my family oh really

yeah and um

i can't speak for every islamic country

but lebanon is like an extremely tribal

country like it's an extremely extremely

it's not

i mean it's not just at the level of

sects even if you have sects who

represent like the shia like hezbollah

they actually represent the like the

first force of universalism

among just the shia themselves like

and yeah i mean i i don't think it's a

eurocentric prejudice like

everything i know about like my own

culture like as a middle easterner like

this is the reality of how it works it's

it's extremely extremely tribal

and there is no clear reconciliation

between

the state and civil society and they're

like the way in which power actually

works in civil society

and the only exceptions i can think of

are

maybe turkey definitely iran

and

um

i don't know about indonesia and those

countries but to me it seems like every

islamic or middle eastern society

has this in common it's just the law of

the tribes you know i mean it's just but

do you think this is more of a case of

because it's just like a like a muslim

thing or is it because like of like the

uh

the like that that region of the world

is one of the least developed regions in

the world because i would say that

europe north america south africa all

these countries are also extremely

tribal in terms of like uh

groups with harsh divisions right um for

a long long long time right but over

time as people become more comfortable

with democracy and more comfortable with

each other and live with each other

these divisions sort of blur away over

time and even in like afghanistan if you

go to like kabul right these sort of

like uh whether in uzbek or you're like

um a tajik right like there's still like

ethnic tensions like everywhere right

yeah but it's not the same as you would

find in like southern afghanistan right

or northern africa no no undoubtedly and

it's it's also true for beirut in

lebanon it's a more cosmopolitan city

but the real divisions

even within that city are given

expression and um are being concretely

realized elsewhere but i just want to

say about um

whether it's a muslim thing or that

they're just underdeveloped

i actually think it's not i don't know

if i think if anything i think it's

eurocentric to look at it in terms of

development because um

the the issue is just that there has

there is something that can be broadly

called islamic civilization like there's

something that

almost all islamic societies especially

since we're talking about countries that

were like ruled by one empire for a long

time the ottoman empire and then the

safavids they they do have something in

common right it's an in contrast to

europe and the reason the eur europe i

don't first so

i i can't actually identify europe ever

having

um a law of the tribe so to speak at

least um after the roman empire so

europe took a very sharply different

course of development than

the middle east and islamic world

because

there with its feudalism you had a kind

of extension of like roman empire's kind

of colonialism of the land landowning

system and this was kind of and then it

took the form of the catholic church so

you had this uneasy relationship between

the natives uh of these former provinces

of the roman empire and then this purely

centralized force and so you had this

kind of increasing differentiation the

rise of these small principalities and

polities

whereas in the islamic world you had

universal states

like very big empires

that

didn't really like impose themselves

um

uh with such like partic with such um

specificity on the particular local

realities

like the tribal whatever realities were

maintained but they were just kind of

sublimated in the form of these

these states so your european and then

european democracy obviously um

follows from

uh a completely different um

course a completely different projection

like the the sociological foundation of

modern statehood just forget about

democracy just modern statehood is

very very different in the middle

eastern countries

than um than in europe because remember

a modern state means a universal and

abstract state it means a state that

um

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that is absolute in a sense right it

it's completely elevated over all the

particular interests of civil society

and it has the absolute right of the

monopoly on violence and that

formally speaking

it's like everyone's life is in its

hands and so on and so on so this modern

state

has had trouble

uh being reconciled with the realities

of the kind of islamic

civilization

well even say i like take this for

granted i take this as true right i

still don't view it as a compelling

reason um for why the polls would be

wrong

um because i just

i i don't think this idea that like

they're they would just say like give

answers

like different answers depending on

who's asking especially when the

pollsters have done like the most

thorough job to reassure um people being

pulled that they are in no danger and

they even send for example um when

they're pulling women the pollster will

be a woman right and they

do things that will make people the most

comfortable and like at least uh feel in

danger as possible no i mean i i have no

doubt about that it was the best

intention of the pollsters to really see

what was objectively going on

and they were trying they were trying to

account for all of the things in their

head at least that

would dissuade people from answering

objectively but it's just from what i

know about afghanistan and and other

things is it's just that the afghan

people it makes sense to me that they

regardless of all those assurances and

regardless of what that attempt to

really get them to build trust and get

them to trust them that it's safe that

the afghan people will always see

um

any interest as a private specific

interest and not like a site of giving

universal expression to their opinion

like they're it's not that they see like

this poster and think okay what is my

real opinion and then that's giving

universal expression to my opinion like

in the abstract it's like okay who is

this person like what do they want from

me like what would they want me to say

and what is their interest right i mean

i don't think i don't know how like

assurances

would be necessarily relevant to that

because

it's not so much that these people think

like they're going to immediately die if

they respond in the wrong way but it's

just more like an instinct the afghan

people

have acquired since the soviet invasion

that

and maybe even before then that like you

need to know who that the person you're

talking to is not

a vacuum but is a specific and

particular interest and it doesn't

matter how much assurances they're

giving you or they're you're talking to

women like you're going to respond and

react to them accordingly

i i just i i don't think that this is

like a concept that has ever even

been on the radar of like

academia in terms of like the validity

of the truthfulness of polling

um

like i just yeah well i i find it very

convincing right well a lot of the

criticisms of the poll

were saying that or the ones that i read

were saying that

they don't understand like the real deep

subtleties of

the afghan culture and the afghan

society which is

kind of hard to under it's it's really

hard to kind of

grasp those things

and even you know like understand how to

account for them or even if they can be

accounted for from the perspective of

like

western academia or even modern academia

in general like this is just a

completely different type of society

that has not yet

made itself transparent to any modern

paradigm would at all right and it

really is the issue is that

islamic societies in general

um are not really within the realm of

knowledge of in terms of how they work

and like why people do the things they

do

um for not just modern western uh

knowledge but just modern knowledge in

general it's like even even in islamic

societies that have their own

institutions of universities

and modern education it's like there's a

complete discontinuity between like

the reality of your family and your

tribe and your locality and then

the reality of this kind of modern

um society people participate in so it's

like a dual reality that has not been

reconciled

uh

i i i just

i i just i just don't know i i don't

think that

um

really any of this would affect like

yeah whether or not the if a pollster

goes up to like say an afghan and

helmond and says

uh

do you like the government or do you

hate the government and they just jot it

down what they say um

like i don't believe there's enough

evidence um

uh like uh compelling evidence to

believe that enough afghans are being

untruthful

to make the uh um the results uh not

close

like to reality well i think there's

probably two layers that would be like

more authentic than a pole right

the second like the on the set uh as far

as like something that would be more

accurate but still flawed and i can kind

of explain why it'd be flawed but this

would be a more general critique of

formal democracy in general is that

um

a democratic institute it would be an

election right what would the if the

afghan people could elect

based on like going out and voting in

polls

but the issue obviously with that is

that elections are not couldn't possibly

be universal because they are sustained

by some kind of institution of state and

that state itself is based in some kind

of

private

reality of civil society and violence

and so on and so on so when people vote

for example it's it doesn't always

reflect their actual will

um it reflects their will as expressed

within

a given state or polity

but as far as like

determining what states people would

prefer right

um

a more accurate way to give and get an

uh just a better idea than that i'm not

saying it applies universally

is

a war right a war is where state a state

is either in conflict with itself like a

civil war or

uh two states are in conflict that is

actually where there is real turmoil at

the level of the state

uh added state and

to me it seems like

the complete almost you complete lack of

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resistance for people to send their kids

to take up arms and rally behind you

know

resisting the taliban um

i understand people are fearful and

they're scared but like this is the

reality of

how a state comes to give expression to

a people it's it's really based in this

kind of

you know master slave dialectic of

proving your life and and violence and

so on and as ugly and horrible as it is

it's like i find it really hard to

believe that after being trained and

equipped for 20 years by like the most

powerful country on earth and receiving

all of the equipment and all of the

training and all of the help

and all the preparation they could

possibly get that

you know

the

afghan government can be just destroyed

so easily just when the us pulls out

um it's like a big reason why that

happened is it's our fault we we made

them too dependent on us like it it

wasn't their fault

they they had again they had the will

they didn't have the means to express

that will so like even like when we were

with them when they had the assurance

that they were backed up right that they

had the the power to fight back um

they the afghan security forces are the

ones who have given most the most lives

to fighting the taliban it's like the

america there's only been like like 2

300 something americans dead in 20 years

there have been like 70 000 a a who have

given their lives like fighting the

taliban that's more than the amount of

taliban that's been killed um

right like

and a big reason why um even all that

train none of the training and the money

and the equipment none of that matters

if you're underpaid under fed and um

have a low discipline because um there

isn't enough oversight on your uh like

division to instill that discipline in

your military

well

i mean

from a perspective of kind of military

theory um

the economic source of the military is

gonna draw itself from the people's

livelihood right i mean that's how

militaries acquire popular reality is

that they feed themselves by tapping

into the economic ways of life people

have and they take

a portion of that right so it's not you

know

a national military couldn't possibly

survive based on foreign funds and being

funded by foreigners it's like you are

getting this from the internal

economy plus you're getting help from

foreigners and so on

but if you're getting none of almost

nothing from your own people um

then the other thing is also in terms of

morale

i think it's clear from the experience

of history that

morale i mean the real source of morale

is not that you're being like given

economic incentives like kind of like a

mercenary

um the real source of morale is going to

be belief it's going to be like an

ideology or a religion or just

even a universal state um like the

french universal state during the

revolution

and it was invaded by various countries

it's like it's going to be some kind of

allegiance and debt you owe to a higher

thing than just yourself and just your

own private and material interest and

that's why

even

armies

can emerge from

peasants who like are completely poor

and half starving and

they will initiate the process of

building their army and growing their

strength

um because one

it reflects a cause they actually

believe in

and two um they're actually tapping into

and making contact

with the people

that they're representing

and those people are the source of them

being able to be fed and clothed and so

on and so on

so

to me the failures of the afghan

government couldn't really be blamed on

us because

if anything they had a huge advantage

because of our support and if

plus our support they couldn't um

beat the taliban it just makes it just

very clear to me that

the afghan government had no basis in

the afghan people at all but that's with

our while we were giving oversight they

they were winning the vast majority of

their operations but because we made

them too dependent on

contractors when we left and we stopped

providing air support

they couldn't

get use their own air support and they

didn't have the means to be organized um

like

it was like a direct result of our

actions if we made them less dependent

on contractors if we uh made sure that

like uh the soldiers were paid and fed

um like they would have kept going and

we wouldn't have seen what happened in

2021 like this year with the taliban

taking every single province because

like it's like a domino it's a snowball

effect all these militias rose up and

because they were surrounded and they

weren't unified these remind you these

weren't a a these were just regular

people picking up guns um so they did

have that will but they were surrounded

and so they lost right um

if you all you hear constantly for the

for months and months and months is

province is falling and falling and

falling and you're starved you have no

money um you're you're not getting like

the supplies you need you don't have air

support um what other option do you have

except surrender

um right um so a few things um

so the first thing is that

i i just doesn't really make sense to me

like if if if the problem was that we

were making them too dependent

then i don't know how their military

successes could be used as an argument

for the underlying issue here which is

that

i mean regardless of

it's it sounds kind of um

rude but

it seems like the experience of history

shows regardless of like the

relative circumstance of like how poor

you're or whatever if people truly do

have a will to fight they find and make

the way right i mean like

all forms of real resistance in history

were based on this triumph

or this kind of um

when there's a will there's a way right

and

it doesn't seem like it makes sense that

like the way comes before the will from

a perspective of the history of

militaries and the history of you know

armed conflict in general i mean even

before modern times

um

so

it's like the way never precedes the

will is what i'm trying to say it's like

it's always the will don't you think

that that like the the the um

like the i think the morale like it does

matter right like yeah uh if if these

people have lived under war for

literally the past 40 years right if not

almost 50 at by now um like

they they they might not be willing

they're it's all the things stacked on

top of each other right you were doing

really good and that with operational

support from the americans with their

small presence and just you know

providing air support every once in a

while with their like guidance you were

able to win like most operations that

you engaged in uh without even having

like us troops on the ground with you

um but then all of a sudden the u.s

completely revokes all logistical

support the contractors start stop

leaving with before having taught you

how to actually

keep the the machinery together so you

the machinery becomes useless um and

your whole logistics falls apart and

then all these different uh uh platoons

out in the field right they are not

getting their pay they're not receiving

food on time they're like starved there

aren't enough of them they don't have

the means they don't have the support

like

i don't think that this means that we

should just like leave them be

to like

be attacked and be taken by the taliban

especially when

to us it is like a measly like few 10

billions of dollars every year

it's like a very low cost high reward

kind of thing like we we spend a couple

tens of millions billions of dollars

every year to continue their legi our

logistical support of them while their

econ economy develops mind you like a

big reason the corruption was a thing

was lack of oversight um

and uh from us uh not doing enough

oversight from this like fledgling thing

we helped built and uh poverty when you

have an impoverished war-torn country um

that

without very much oversight it's ripe

for corruption right um you will have

like individuals in government who will

take advantage of the situation to

enrich themselves right um and when this

happens it's not it doesn't

produce very good outcomes which is

oversight is required like us being

there because they want us to be there

um

it's it seems justified enough if they

want us we should be there as long as

they want us to be there they want us to

be there it was working it didn't cost

that much money it kept the taliban out

of power

um it it kept less afghans from

suffering under the taliban

it and for america self-interest it was

good for our national security

um like i i don't see a reason

why we shouldn't be there

yeah i mean um so the the issue though

is that

the goal eventually for the occupation

was to eliminate the taliban i think the

issue is that

why wasn't the taliban able to have been

just eliminated if they were so much

success i mean

no war has to last 20 years if

like if the taliban is surviving that

long after being had a war waged upon

them for 20 years with the backing of

the world's greatest power on earth it

seems it's because there's some kind of

basis within afghanistan that is giving

rise to the taliban's

um operational and logistical and

in terms of morale its existence and the

issue to me with um

this thing of like well the issue is

that the country's war torn and there's

poverty and there's not a lot of morale

it's like i can't think of a state uh or

a state of affairs more war-torn and

more dire than afghanistan in the 90s

after the aftermath of

the extremely destructive

soviet um war and yet the taliban who

had support from pakistan but still more

or less come built themselves from

scratch just based on

some kind of belief and some kind of uh

idea

it seems like

they had an extreme motivator which was

religious extremism yeah don't you think

we wouldn't want regular people to be

motivated the way they're motivated

because we don't want people to be

extremists well um

the issue is that extreme is always

relative and i'll explain like it sounds

like it doesn't make sense here but i'll

explain why

so

when it comes to the foundation of a

state

um the people

who are like

the the unit of that state is always a

military of some kind right every state

has its foundation and some kind of

unifying

like military force taking over somehow

like it begins from

like the big one of the best examples of

this is the mongols right the mongols

began from various disparate tribes in

mongolia and then they fanatically

rallied behind this kind of genghis khan

as this unifying force

and this be this was like they were

pretty much extremists right or i mean

maybe in a contemporary modern sense uh

which makes more sense to us like from a

european perspective

i can't think of a people who are more

extreme

more fanatical than the french

volunteers during the french revolution

who were defending the french republic i

mean they were extremely

zealous and fanatical that same was true

for the

americans fighting the british in the

war of independence so this had bad

outcomes right because during the french

rev while i agree the french revolution

yeah in the wider picture was a good

thing they also like sort of mass

murdered people in an unjustified way by

like lopping off heads left and right if

you were even like slightly sus right

they would just kill you like it's the

same thing with taliban they're people

that when i say extremism they are so

like in depth in their ideology that

they are willing to literally uh if you

oppose them and you're in front of them

and you're opposing them they'll just

shoot you like you're just yeah

yeah but all i'm trying to say is that

this is the foundation of every modern

and universal state

it's just what i'm trying to say like

this is

where the state comes from so to speak

it's it's this precise terror during the

french revolution that

um and i think a better the better

example is probably the vendee right the

war in the vendee because the terror um

in paris during the reign of terror was

actually was extremely over exaggerated

like relative to the amount of

executions that were happening before

the french revolution it was not

that much of a spike and the reason it's

over exaggerated in history was because

the first time the victims were

disproportionately um

the upper classes the middle classes

sorry the

aristocratic classes and the nobility

and so on and so on so

it's given more exaggeration for that

reason but in general

um every state has its origins in this

kind of primordial violence and this uh

primordial terror even right i mean that

is how a state

establishes itself

above

uh civil society and above

um the private in particular interests

now

there are varying degrees of violence

um like physical violence depending on

the circumstances that will correspond

to this but it is ultimately a very

traumatic uh abrupt

and if not in the form of physical

violence like widespread bloodshed it's

it's still a very violent thing in

general like it's a it's tearing people

away

sense

from their completely local and

particular and private and familial

and individual circumstances and

imposing upon them just this universal

representative that completely stands

above them

and i think that's something that is

common to every modern state on earth

would it be more preferable to not

establish a state through like

fanaticism and extreme violence uh like

the taliban where they will produce

reproduce that violence consistently

until like as long as we can think of

right

uh wouldn't it be more preferable to

just have the united states right at the

behest of the government and the people

of afghanistan who want their our health

right to help slowly build up the

country

over time right just like

gradually until things are able to hold

their own like for example afghanistan

has like a functioning and efficient

economy uh it has like its democratic

structures fully formed as turnout

increases like their representation

become like better like a big reason why

the turnout was so low in 2019 compared

to 2014 is because of the increased

violence right um

caused by like us uh and like leaving um

and like our us it's been consistent

trends since 2010 the more we leave the

worse things get because we choose to

simply not just leave right um after

accomplishing a mission we just go we

set a date we're going to say this

amount of troops are going to be gone by

this state and all this does is provide

the taliban an incentive to just wait us

out right if we have an announcement of

when we're going to leave they will

simply just wait which is what happened

um they waited till we left and then

they took the country um it's the same

thing with like um long-term uh coin

operations do you know about the

naxalites in india yeah

they've been waging a war for like 60

years

but like

the country was allowed to develop

around them to the point where

they are no longer a threat anymore so

even if we never permanently got rid of

the taliban they would eventually once

they dried up their economic resources

like poppy et cetera after we continue

our popup anti-poppy operations um like

they will lose these resources and

dwindle and dwindle and dwindle over

time as the country develops around them

right and sort of leaves them in the

dust until like eventually they just

become a nuisance group that uh unless

we come to a peace deal with them um in

a hypothetical that where we don't get a

peace deal they just become a nuisance

group that every few months they like

shoot a cop in the head and then run

back into the mountain which is what the

naxalites do the next lights

are a problem but they

aren't a threat to the national

sovereignty of india right i understand

that um so the first thing was um

sorry i forgot wasn't gonna what i was

gonna say the first thing what was the

first thing you said

um oh yeah sorry i remember now so um

i guess it would be preferable um but it

also wouldn't be it doesn't make sense

because it's

implied by the nature of the state

itself like this it would be preferable

if there was no suffering right in the

world but suffering is part of the world

it's part of the nature of the world and

likewise

the same is true for the nature of

states and violence violence is

uh a part of the nature of every state

and

i'm sorry yeah i know i i think the

basically your argument is like oh it

doesn't have to be that way because we

could do this right but

the issue here as far as like the

development of afghanistan is concerned

and outmoding the um

the taliban

well the problem is that

in contrast to india which is a

sovereign state it has its basis and its

own people and it's actually its own

state the problem is that the issue with

have in the case of afghanistan is that

the actual economic development is not

just a matter of pouring money into a

country

it's economic development plus a solid

basis in

um civil society

that

uh would make this investment turn into

a form of capital that is reinvested and

so on and so on but when you don't have

that the investments um

are kind of trickled down in the form of

like an implicit or institutionalized

corruption where you have warlords or

leaders just taking the money and doing

it with themselves you have the

government taking the money and you know

you have this kind of corruption this

like the only way in which funds can be

used

to develop a country is if that country

um

or is if that country is either being

colonized where the institutions of some

other state are the ones

you know

owning and building and doing all this

work or if there's a solid basis in the

people themselves

that

in relationship to the state that makes

these um

makes in terms of their economic way of

life and in terms of their economic

opportunities and so on and so on

that allow this money to be channeled

into a form of like universal capital

right like people

um

can build up businesses and there can be

like making their economy

self-sustaining right it's like yeah

more or less yeah and well but i would

that would i would respond to that with

that we were doing that um so it was

just those kinds of things because of

the nature of we're simultaneously

helping them build a country but also at

the same time doing a military operation

it's necessarily going to be slower than

for example in japan where the war was

over right there was no conflict so we

just can solely focus on rebuilding

right um

in afghanistan uh dino um bamiyan the

province um

uh beforehand uh they were having a

really hard time

growing stuff and like their economy was

pretty [ __ ]

and then the usaid um program basically

suggested um to grow a certain kind of

potato they're known as the bamiyan

potatoes um and now after that region of

afghanistan produces a fuckton of food

for the country and they the farmers

there now have like a sustainable crop

that they can continually grow forever

um it's like this is an example of like

the us nation building that's helping

the afghan economy become

into its come into its own basically

like uh aiding in the construction of

like water access for everybody

connecting things through roads which um

which a lot of them were destroyed but

mind you by the taliban right so that's

why the military operation is so

important because you need to

continually beat them down to stop them

from blowing up all the stuff you're

building for the good of people

we've built like energy infrastructure

communications infrastructure all things

that are conducive for people to be more

connected to be able to travel more um

to be uh basically ripe for economic

activity right um and if you've seen

like uh

afghanistan's gdp over time even and per

capita it had skyrocketed since 2001. um

the problem is just it just wasn't there

yet

well i mean has it skyrocketed relative

to the countries around it or countries

similar to it in 2001 because i think

the overall trend for most countries

just over time i don't think there was a

country like afghanistan in 2001 um

well in other somalia and africa things

like that

um the thing with somalia is that

somalia has not really ever

like the the civil war has sort of been

really ongoing or um since literally i

think i think it's the i don't know if

the gdp growth would be an accurate

measurement of like real

um

non-relative economic growth i think

most countries like over time they're

just going to have their gdp grow

because of the nature of the global

economic growth in general but

um you know in the case of afghanistan i

don't think i i don't see the

farmers growing the potatoes and the

relative degree of building some

infrastructure in afghanistan it just

doesn't scale to me in a way that

actually represents a real economic

development of a country

um now i think you mentioned that the

taliban relied on poppy fields to fund

its operations which it did um after the

u.s intervention

um i don't know to what extent i'm not i

don't think it's

it makes up of probably as far as i

remember uh a pretty strong majority of

the money that they use every year

they basically run the global heroin

market

yeah i i don't know about that i've i've

never i mean do you have a source or is

it yeah um

uh i think the stat is that like

80 or 90 of the world's heroine like

originates you know afghanistan yeah i

know but um and then oh for like

specifically that it's made all made by

the taliban yeah here one second um

yeah here uh

[ __ ]

give me one second i have to like go

through an archive of like

stuff

yeah here um

this is uh

a chart um or like a document that shows

the progress of like the poppy

anti-narcotics operations and by by 2009

pretty much

all poppy

um was produced in taliban territory

and even before um the uh afghan

government banned poppy production there

actually hasn't been any legal poppy

production in the country

for

a very long time uh for decades

um

this is so this is from 2001 to 2009 um

yes

but in 2015

uh there was a global decrease in the

value of heroin and poppy and opioid

because it's not just heroin it's also

opioids in general because of the rise

of synthetics like fentanyl and so on

um so it seems like that alone would

have done a real number on the taliban's

source of income if that was the

majority of their well that was pretty

like that was pretty recent right um

even even though there would be that

shock to their like the value of their

poppy um i don't think it was enough it

wouldn't be enough to

really hurt them all that much because

if you look at like poppy production

um

uh

this chart

yeah this um

even after 2015 their production went up

um to make up for it yeah uh the only

thing i'm reading from this was that the

opium trading and the insurgency are

related poppy cultivation and insurgent

violence are correlated geographically

which makes sense but it doesn't

necessarily mean that the warlords are

supporting the taliban

but maybe if even if they are this only

says that opium now provides the taliban

a portion of its revenues

um i don't know if it's the majority of

its revenues um or if it's like

you know it's like i i don't doubt that

a portion of its revenues are coming

from poppy but

i don't think that

starving them out so to speak and

waiting for poppy fields to run dry

i'm not sure

it's not about um we wouldn't just wait

them out um so as the document provides

um

it's like proactive efforts and it was

those proactive efforts that

concentrated um all the production most

the country doesn't produce poppy

anymore it's just in or i guess not

anymore because the taliban won but at

the time um

it was all in taliban territory most

people were free uh from being anywhere

near the vicinity of poppy production um

yeah i i just re-looked at my sources um

the um the drugs don't make up the

majority it makes up like a um like a

plurality like it's the single biggest

source but they also like mining and

like

taxes which would be more listed as

expected um do you know the percentage

specifically

um

let me do

some pencil math real quick uh

one second

here i'll just i'll just give you the

link um

this one goes over uh some of the

reports that list all their so basically

um from largest to smallest it's drugs

so poppy uh mining uh uh extortion uh

charitable donations from like the

islamic world um

exports uh real estate so they actually

have like real estate um yeah

and uh states giving them money

yeah um so

the group imposes a ten percent tax on

every link in the drug program

personally it's going to report

independent research and organization in

kabul that includes the afghan farmers

who cultivate poppy

um so

uh

is it i don't know if it's a plurality

because it says here mining is 400

million to 464. so it could be the

plurality but it's only if

mining is at the lower end of the

estimate that it would be a plurality

um

and then

phil i i obviously i didn't i if i if it

sounded like it i'm not implying that if

we

uh

thanos snapped poppy from existence that

they would just cease being able to

function

it would just hurt them immensely

right but i think that

i i don't know if there's more

contemporary okay so this was

so the latest report was from 2008 so i

we really don't know like in

contemporary times like how much they're

even dependent on poppy um this this

this thing the conversation article i

think that goes over like un stuff yeah

and different um studies um this was the

figures for their 2019 to 2020 budget

right but the

the group imposes a 10 tax on every link

according to a 2008 um report so i'm

assuming it's from that report that

they're arriving at these numbers

right because i don't know how else

they're calculating the numbers or

that it's this much you know uh

taxes extortion

um and also well that that was a 2001

survey

so yeah someone in chat has taught me

that

the dak stan province has tweeted the

article in the conversation for the

extortion taxes for their um

2020 revenue um was in 2020

um right

so where is that

um so if you go to the in the

conversation article number three

extortion taxes according to uh malay

cube um

uh tax revenues which may also be

considered extortion bring around 160

million annually if you click the

hyperlink um brings up a foreign policy

article um post in 2020

right but how are they calculating the

amount of drugs

oh the drugs yeah um oh okay one second

they they they go over this in the u.n

drug report like how they measure this

stuff

but the un drug report is just that

afghanistan provides 84 percent of

global opium but it doesn't does it talk

but we also know that like

uh through other sources that the the

government of afghanistan isn't the one

providing or cultivating this poppy and

that it's almost entirely by the taliban

they run it's all in their territory

yeah and it's all uh administered by

them

is there really a source though that

most of the poppy is because i don't i

have no doubt that like legally speaking

it's probably outlawed but

um how are they measuring like

what like where the poppy's actually

being grown because i mean i mean you

at least you would admit right that

the u.s backed warlords are growing

poppy were growing poppy many of them

were right the u.s was defending i mean

it's like a famous twitter or whatever

um those pictures of the marine or i

think it was a marine uh defending a

poppy field um was not to like defend

its cultivation it was like

it was like a taliban poppy field right

but uh but

poppy was being grown under the u.s

occupation

yeah but the way we uh oppose that right

the these individual farmers don't just

like

export it internationally by themselves

it's it's through the militant groups um

and the way we try to use that is we try

to give them like do economic policies

to try and like incentivize them to grow

other things

the problem is that like they were just

bad policies but it still wasn't the

government doing it well

to be clear um it seems very clear to me

that

what happened was that

poppy was banned under the taliban after

the restriction was removed the afghan

people not necessarily the government or

the taliban specifically but the afghan

people

um

decided to grow pop poppy as like an

economic

you know just like to sell is economic

right the

ban on poppy in 2000 and

it was one right um

that was specifically done we know this

um

uh now we didn't know this at the moment

we know this um from hindsight uh that

this was only done to um it wasn't an

actual like they actually wanted to ban

poppy legitimately and get rid of the

drug trade they did this to like

basically um

what's the word artificially inflate the

value of their stockpiles and then they

immediately went back to making poppy um

it was never a permanent thing and it

wasn't actually like a genuine ban

um

so how do we know this

here let me link it to you

i don't have everything

up right now i have to go back and get

it um

yeah here um in

i'm trying to i'm trying to like pair i

don't want to read this whole

um

[Music]

paragraph

um

so like the idea is that poppy

um was not actually banned under the

duration of the team here um many

observers uh say the ban which came in

bid for international recognition at the

united nations was only issued in order

to raise opium prices and increase

profit from the sale of large existing

stockpiles in 1999 had yielded a record

crop and had been followed by a lower

but still large 2000 harvests the

trafficking accumulated stocks by the

taliban continued in 2000 and 2001 in

2002 the un mentioned the quote

existence of significant stocks of

opiates accumulated during previous

years of bumper harvests in september

2001 before 9 11

attacks

on the united states um the taliban

allegedly authorized afghan peasants to

sow opium again so the un uh is uh said

that basically before 9 11 even happened

basically like it wouldn't the increase

uh like their reproduction may like

wasn't caused by the invasion that they

were already starting to uh ramp up

production again before the invasion

yeah but it seems like that was just an

allegation that there's no actual proof

that like they were all

stuff like this will always be framed as

an alleging right so like for example

even like human right right human rights

watch report on say like um

uh israel uh doing apartheid they will

frame it and we allege or we um

like we believe

right yeah um because nothing is like

like definitive right well i mean

possible that it's not true but it's

like all the evidence points to it being

true right but

there's there's well two things right

there's actually a lot of hard evidence

of the israeli

the

content of the israeli occupation

and the second thing is that

um

like what is that evidence though right

because it just seems like they're

saying that the talib like it seems like

um

so first it said some have speculated

this and then

there's a u.n report that the taliban

was keeping for whatever reason

stockpiles of um poppy yeah basically if

they actually wanted to ban opiates yeah

then they would have destroyed their

stockpiles but they didn't

um and we know they didn't for certain

or is that also yes we we know they okay

well um

i think the main thing is that they

banned the production right and then

that's what's really

the question here is like

so reports allege some alleged that they

were allowing peasants to regrow it

but i think that would be like the most

convincing thing which would be that

like even before the us invasion the

taliban lifted its ban on poppy and

allowed

basically like just lifted the ban right

but i haven't seen any evidence of that

um one second uh

it's it's hard to get hands on pdfs of

un reports from like 2001 um yeah

because

uh

i have all i have is like books with

mentions of said you and reports uh

would that be like enough

um well i just want to know like what is

the evidence specifically that

the taliban lifted the ban on poppy

before

um the us invasion

means like the reason

you know me like what just want to know

the evidence for that

um i i wouldn't know like uh since i

can't access like the report itself just

people talking about the report i

wouldn't be able to tell you right now

like if i could if i probably looked i'd

be able to find it just not right now

okay

um okay we can just move on from that

specifically but so i guess that just

going back to the point i was trying to

make is that it seems to me that

um

[Music]

regardless of whether they would lifted

the ban or not i'd still you know i'm

not really persuaded they did but

just even if they did it just seems to

me like

it's not so much that the taliban or the

government is cultivating poppy as much

as that the practice of cultivating

poppy is economical to afghans right so

whether it's under the government's

control

or not just the afghan people but um the

land owners in afghanistan people owning

the land like the warlords or whatever

so it seems to me like it's not

it's just a matter of like

um

who is presiding over it in terms of

collecting taxes but

or you know if it's completely banned

formally then what

networks of corruption are leading the

revenues to be distributed and so and so

way but

um

[Music]

hold on i just got sent a source

uh

so afghanistan is responsible for 80

percent

um

[Music]

what is the taliban's record so

at first

rose and then

taliban's been on opium farming there

was a noticeable dip in opium and heroin

seizures globally okay

uh

according

most poppy growing has been concentrated

in areas held by the taliban

um so let's see opium poppy cultivation

in afghanistan

um

uh let's see hamlin problems so the

thing is is that

i think it's saying most poppy growing

is in areas held by the taliban

but not all of it is right i mean and by

most

like for example like in the map i sent

you of 2000 um

uh 2009 or whatever or uh yeah 2008 um

yeah

these like look at the uh it's really

hard to read the key because it's pretty

low res but the like dark blue is poppy

free right um it's like no poppy the

light blue so a lot of the country is

less than 300 um h.a i think is hectars

uh yeah i think the map is a little old

though because i'm looking at a little

uh more recent one

yeah and then light red is 300 to 6 000

and then so dark right the south is more

than 10 000. right

this one is um more contemporary this

one has a more contemporary map it's

from 2020 and it seems like poppy

production is pretty

i mean i don't yeah if you see if um in

helmand like 115

000 hectares versus

um all the other places

that aren't controlled by the taliban

have

much much much right but this is um

hectares used by province

um

yeah it's 115

yeah it's obviously disproportionately a

lot but it's still a lot like and a big

reason why it spread is because in those

locations became more contested so the

taliban had more influence in those

areas

which is why the areas around like um

like uh

like where the government has most

control are pretty poppy free

well

yeah but the the the lands controlled by

the taliban are not like completely

controlled by them you know that right

it's like

there's also federal government there

there's troops there it's like oh

in places where the taliban have firm

control the government has almost no

right but i don't think in these

territories where poppy's being produced

the most i think it's precisely the

ambiguity that allows poppy growers to

really take advantage of it and

i don't think a lot of them what they do

is they'll grow it in between the actual

crops to hide it like it's like illicit

yeah like illegal well but the the issue

is that like the government also has

control in those places too

well which is why they've been working

with the us for 20 years to combat the

poppy trade i know that's destroying

crops yeah yeah trying to incentivize

farmers right like et cetera formally

that's the case but don't you think

there's evidence that shows that the

government is also benefiting from poppy

production

um

i don't know in what way would they

benefit from it

um hold on it's like a the the drug

abuse um and drug addiction

and like the how much he gives the

taliban is a really big problem see this

i i didn't mention this before but in

the ana because of how

common opiates are in um

the a a like afghanistan is like the

midwest of the middle east or like south

asia and slash the middle east right

yeah um

like this i think like 60 or 70 of um

people in the in the army had like an

opiate addiction

um

which like isn't really it's not their

fault like over time people consume

opiates and they get a dick yeah well

the brooking institute says that taliban

is profiting from it um there are also

various criminal gangs sometimes

connected to the government the afghan

police militias tribal elites

and many ex-warlords come government

officials at various levels of the

government so i agree that it's an

informal thing but it still

makes up a huge

you know a mountain portion

obviously the afghan government has not

legalized poppy production i mean that's

very clear to me that they're you know

but i think i also think it's pretty

explicit that it's like

they would benefit severely like if

poppy just didn't exist like they it

would be like

um yeah i don't know they want very

badly for it not to be a thing because

it causes so much problem right but it's

it contribute in 2018 and this was after

the fentanyl um spike let me see

actually this is the

um

from our earlier conversation just real

quick um yeah uh aiden made it for for

us uh afghanistan was the third um

uh third fastest grower among its

neighbors behind turkmenistan and china

in terms of gdp growth well yes but the

reason was before i get to this other

point really quickly the reason for that

is because the afghan

economy was completely devastated and

destroyed

by the war and oftentimes when countries

are like completely decimated by a war

you're going to see like fast growth

relative to others for a period

um

just because they're it's just like the

rebuilding right but if you look here uh

where's afghanistan

it's the yeah the tan yeah so you see

there's like a

spike

and then right before around 2003 i

think 2004 it goes down and kind of

evens out and it's not really impressive

growth and you can see if you follow the

line of afghanistan's growth

um there was growth before the invasion

looks like right there's a huge

tremendous spike of growth before 2000

the year 2000

um

so i i don't think the economic growth

can be attributed to the us occupation

um

but anyway um

what i was trying to say about uh

afghanistan is that

uh poppy is a significant portion of the

afghan economy it's like in 2018 before

the fence i'm trying to find like older

data but 2018 was after the drop because

of synthetic opioids but even then it

was still 11

and 11 doesn't sound like it's that much

but

i mean it's a lot you know afghanistan's

biggest uh

like

most of their economic activity is in uh

the service industry and agriculture

and the agriculture is like legitimate

agricultural so i i'm seeing a

thing uh i'm going to try to verify the

source afghan export source observatory

of economic complexity yeah

i use the um that's yeah it says

uh 83 of afghanistan's exports are opium

uh

one second i'm pretty sure their largest

export is gold

um

that being said and then some sources

are very actually argue over the range

of

so in 2008 a source said opium

cultivation provided

40 to 50 percent of the overall

afghan economy and

i'm

because this article itself is citing a

bunch of sources

so maybe you can look over it and just

see because as far as i know even as

much as we know the value of that poppy

is really high

it's sort of dwarfed by the like

legitimate exports and imports of

afghanistan which are like gold

um like is is opium even on this um

thing uh no it wouldn't be because it's

not a legal export but we can look at

the exports from afghanistan and compare

it to the largest one

so like um give me a second

let me look at this

this article

um

does it break down by dollar amount

uh

it just it just posts this medium

article just has like a percentage but

like

where

is the link to

that thing they're referring to the

references are below the source so in

terms of the percentage 40 to 50 percent

um

that's going to be muhammad 2008 page

107.

uh so let's go down

ahmed

yeah so that's going to be endangered

livelihoods questions of opium and

integration for the afghan economy

policy perspectives

um

that's going to be a study for that wait

a second this

the source they're using um

afghan exports source observatory of

economic complexity right

um

that's the thing i just like those

screenshots that's the website that

that's from yeah um and that

isn't on there

so i'm trying to figure out where they

got that if that's the source for this

table the table the table they linked is

this um yeah let's go down and see the

observatory because they probably link

it down here

no they don't the un

odc maybe that's the one

u n o d

united nations office on drugs and crime

this is probably what they were

um yeah they linked it it's a thing from

2007. let's see

yeah

um

the table i don't i actually don't know

where this table is from

but i'm trying the united nations office

of drug so unodc shows that opium is now

equivalent

to more than a half 53 percent of the

country's illicit gdp

speaking at a conference this might they

there has to be a typo there's no

because um

that doesn't make any sense uh

because it's an illicit

commodity

total export value of opiates produced

in traffic in afghanistan is about 4

billion

so

so if we look at the source you should

say illicit right um that would

which source are you looking at are you

looking at the

u.n i'll just link the one yeah the

afghan opium report

um

so it's saying here that the total

export value of opiates

is about 4 billion

in 2007

and the highest export that's linked um

it was gold right and gold

is only

let me find gold is only compromising

968 million so four times as

so opium would i mean this is the

contemporary data from 2019 right we

don't know the opium

as a percentage of exports more recently

but

all but i think all this shows is just

how like powerful of an export and

resource like opium is to militant

groups and like

uh because like this is illicit right

now right but it it can't just be the

the militant groups that are benefiting

from it you know it's also

corrupt government officials police

militias tribe tribal leaders

uh ex-warlords and warlords it's like

it's not but that's a part of um like a

narcotics operation right

right without disruption it can be both

i mean corruption is an intrinsic part

of the afghan state you know it's like

it's not legally tolerated but it's as

far as as far as i know the people in

terms of corruption who benefited from

the opium trade would be the people who

are very local like police officers or

like a governor well

you know it's it's one of those things

where it's like you don't know how like

let's just assume that the like the

the most it could benefit like the most

non-local people who could benefit are

like

some government official in some place

right

and at the highest

center of power the like the central

government is not directly benefiting

from it

um they can still be the ones benefiting

it from it though because even at the

local level that is how people are

making money and those that is like what

is maintaining the order the economic

order it's what's allowing people to

feed themselves

it's what's you know allowing money to

be distributed locally it's allowing the

flow of um

but that's part of the anti-narcotics

operation we're doing we were providing

alternatives to replace people's lives

that were dependent on poppy and it was

working but um i mean i don't know i

actually don't know if it was really

working though because

it's such i mean like those operations

like i'll tell you how corruption works

in terms of drugs right a government

will have anti-narcotics operations and

stuff like to show formally that we're

combating this but on the low key

they're not going to they're not

actually going to take those operations

to the level of actually eradicating and

eliminating drugs

um they're just going to do it

selectively right it's not like they're

not actually taking the measures to

actually like fully eliminate it

nato and the afghan government like the

federal government went pretty hard for

a lot of years doing this they spent a

lot of resources on it the problem is

that we we pulled out our

like troops so it made these operations

much harder notice how like the document

is from 2001 to 2009 um that period is

when obama did the surge and then he did

the immediate pull out right

like when you don't have the men to do

these anti-narcotics operations they

sort of stop working especially when

like these like poor farmers um if drugs

are a really good source of income of

course they're gonna

keep doing it well it's not just income

you know it's also jobs like the same

broking source says

provided up to almost 600 000 full-time

equivalent jobs

um

and which is more people that are in the

the a in a the defense

so

um i don't know it's like

on the one hand there may be like a

formal political

war on drugs but on the other hand like

drugs are still

part of the machine and part of like the

system basically

so i wouldn't say if there were no drugs

like the government would if anything

function better

i just it's like it's a hindrance on the

function of the government and the

economy because it only benefits in

reality like the criminals and the

militant groups yeah but i think that

the issue with that is that it takes too

much for granted in terms of the real

premises of the government not the

formal premises of the government like

if the afghan government was just

the formal institutions and the

institution that it creates

for itself then yes obviously that would

be the case but those gangs and criminal

elements and warlords and so on that

underground provides

like an

a basis for the afghan government itself

so and that is the nature of corruption

in general like governments

that are corrupt

are not like

corrupt because their institutions are

directly allowing i mean at that point

it wouldn't be corruption it would just

be legal right corrupt corruption is

driven by incentives right right yeah

like that like

i mean over time have we seen like yeah

yeah the more developed the country is

generally the lead the less corrupt it

is yeah yeah let me let me put it this

way right i think this is a simple way

to put it

so

for the afghan government to have

an interest whatsoever

interest elevated above all of these

private elements and these individual

elements right it's not just like

tribes and

groups also individuals corrupt

individuals

then it has to have like a universal

will with that it can benefit from right

but the afghan government um

similar to the northern alliance before

i don't see how there is an afghan

government beyond this kind of

determinate and particular

private interests of civil society like

that is not only the back backbone of

the afghan government like

it really is what the afghan government

is you know what i mean and then the

layer on top is just the facade of being

public or a state and so on and so on so

to me

i mean

it's those precise people that are

benefiting from the opium trade and

have much mo the most to lose i agree

from the perspective of like the

universal

islamic republic of afghanistan

it would not been it doesn't benefit

from the opium trade but as far as the

real material premises and the real

material reality of this government

i think those are two completely

different things

um

[Music]

i'm like i'm just trying to think for a

second like are we are we even debating

right now like we're sort of just

debating the intricacies

of like right i'm just trying to if it's

from

um i don't think we're like debating

right now we're just like talking um

like uh

like i might just like to pull it all

back just we can talk about this like

some other time but like like drugs and

stuff but like

in the end right

why don't you think

that the it's why isn't it worth it to

spend a couple billion a few a couple a

few billion dollars a year

to allow

40 uh

39

million people in afghanistan to live

freer healthier

more fulfilling and productive lives um

when the alternative is not giving that

money and not having just like 2 000

troops there and providing air support

um and all of that goes away um pretty

much all the progress that's been made

is gone now because we decided you know

we don't care enough and i think i think

it's just there's kind of two things to

it right

so when we introduced the kind of issue

of morality right

what i would respond from the moral

perspective um but this is a kind of

tricky and misleading uh looking at it

from a moral perspective in the first

place

would be that um the most important

thing and the most important premise for

human beings

is dignity and this sovereignty and

self-determination and actually like

authentically giving expression to who

they truly are

um

in the form of some kind of state that

actually reflects their being right it's

not

it's not really

only about or primarily even about uh

some kind of notion of freedom

or health those things are secondary to

the basic need for a people to be a

sovereign people be a people in the

first place well i agree yeah this the

second thing i would say

is that i don't think it's possible that

an afghan government could is

sustainable in the long term

um

that it it it has fundamentally proven

itself to have failed to be able to

acquire roots and soil in the afghan

people and if the us was going to

continue

to maintain a presence there at that

point it would have to annex afghanistan

as like some kind of colony and have to

be like a permanent state but now you

take this now you take this to the

situation back at home and it's deeply

unpopular politicians have to make the

case and explain to the american people

why we who are a country we are a

specific like country right why are our

troops here in afghanistan why are we

here we have to keep making excuses for

why

um

and at a certain point it's like

how how can it be justified to the

people here because i mean as far as

we're concerned formally speaking right

we are not a world police formally

speaking i'm saying right we might

function that way but formally speaking

this is the united states of america

and you know formally speaking we are

not

it's not our

responsibility to go into other

countries

and solve their problems

and you know occupy those countries to

to prop up and maintain governments that

otherwise wouldn't exist it's just

it's not even if even if those things

provide the people living there more

sovereignty in their lives

i i that's what i would kind of disagree

with is i think i have i have a more

general criticism of

um

formal i guess and you know in marxist

terms we would call it bourgeois

democracy formal democracy but i do not

actually believe in the theory of

statehood or sovereignty according to

which sovereignty amounts to some kind

of formal mechanism of um

giving expression to will because i

think there are material premises

that as a kind of materialist there are

material premises that condition the

possibility of institutions that can

give formal representation to the will

of a population and those material

premises

cannot themselves be established by an

election or some kind of vote

and it's at though and it's like i said

before at that level

how you can actually determine like the

real nature and character of a people is

in the form of the war it's a form of

some kind of violence conflict a

revolution civil war or something like

that

so so you don't think that um just to

make it sure just that we're clear um

that

even if it's super easy for the us to do

at a very low cost

we still shouldn't be there despite the

outcomes it produces

um

we shouldn't be there because it's not

our place to be there in the first place

that's what i would argue but what if

the afghan people are using their

newfound democratic sovereignty to say

we want your help uh would you please

help us and then we gave them help it's

not like we're imposing our help

i don't think the opinion polls compris

like are an expression of that

sovereignty

would it not be if if it's just like

like a de facto uh i mean like all of

all a poll is is basically like

it's a non-binding de facto referendum

right it's um people believe uh in a

certain percentage of a specific thing

um for example the afghan people wanted

nato to stay at least until a peace deal

with the taliban right look um even from

a perspective of like a kind of like

liberal democratic or you know

neoliberal democratic kind of like

perspective like i don't know a poll

could not possibly be an expression of

um sovereignty a poll an election would

have to do that a poll itself has no

political or state

legitimacy or validity it's only valid

for media it has nothing to do with like

an actual statement

for example so we have the polls that

say they want nato to stay we also have

polls showing that ghani relative to

most world leaders is very popular um we

have polls showing that the government

is popular and like we have polls

showing that they don't view americans

and foreign forces as a security threat

and that they really don't like the

taliban

what else is this not except expressing

that they will i think again like the

taliban i think there's two extra steps

so for me there has to be two extra

steps as a kind of like

materialist i need two extra steps to be

proven and i think

a kind of like i don't know liberal

democratic or

western democratic perspective there

would have to be another step than just

polls to determine like

make a political decision that reflects

the people's sovereignty

you need an election you need some kind

of actual formal referendum where people

are going to go out and vote and cast

their vote

it's like

i think we disagree like this is like a

fundamental disagreement we have over

the validity of of scientific polling

well i i don't think

scientific polling i mean it's see the

issue is that the afghan people are not

just objects right so science deals with

objects right the afghan people are

subjects and that's the idea of

democracy is that subjects are

determining

and expressing their own will through

some kind of formal mechanism

and a poll um

may is kind of an attempt to get an

objective insight right but you cannot

make a subjective decision as a foreign

state

based on that objective insight for it

to be democratic for it to be democratic

the afghan people have to express

through their own

active expression of their will through

some kind of actual uh election

and through some kind of actual like

institutionalized state

um

expression of their will they have to

actually like act in such a way

that they are accelerating their will

so if we had a poll in afghan in america

that said 90 of people

want marijuana to be legal right and

then the politicians look at that and go

okay

we're going to introduce legislation

because of this polling right to pass

this legislation would you then by what

you by the nature of what you just said

not view that as the democratic will of

the people being expressed like just

because it wasn't a referendum no i mean

it would but the reason that that it

would be expressed is because the only

parties involved in that are politicians

who have already been elected and tasked

with the purpose of representing their

people and the people but the issue the

troubling thing with afghanistan is that

the government in afghanistan did not um

the state i should say the state of the

islamic republic of afghanistan came to

power under circumstances of a foreign

military intervention and moreover the

actual decision at hand of whether the

occupation should remain or not

is being decided at the level of a

foreign power so a poll would not be

enough for a politician in america

to act upon that because that wouldn't

be democratic because the afghan people

don't elect our politicians

i mean

but they elect their own though right

they they elect people into the house

well they did because democracy was

abolished two weeks ago but um well i

mean

the issue is that afghanistan does

there's two issues right the two issues

with that is that one um

this kind of referendum was not

never took place um

and two

um afghanistan has a

to their to be very modest and like be

very um

charitable about it it has a very

imperfect democracy and what i mean by

that is that

you know it's a situation of conflict

with low voter turnout it is very

difficult to actually discern

um

but again that would kind of at least

fulfill the like liberal democratic

standard of sovereignty which would be

like there's even even in the u.s like

in 1930 1925 so so the um ghani the 2019

election i think had like a 35 turnout

all right

the um

it was basically that was the turnout of

like the 1925 midterm elections for in

the united states

like the turnout was low

but it's not like for a country the word

this is literally like it's like

like third or fourth election

since literally the 1960s right and in a

country that's still plagued with

violence i don't think that this is

actually low turnout it's low turnout as

it's in and of itself right 30

but like given the circumstances and

over time turnout will go up right this

is pretty good for like a a second

presidential election

yeah i don't know how that would be

measured or how that you know that would

be

how that would really be understood but

again turnout has deep been decreasing

since then at the very least

and

yeah it just seems that

even if i agreed with you that

afghanistan had a relatively good

democracy

um

again no referendum was conducted on

which the afghan people voted for the

troops to stay or not stay and that

would be a necessary step to determine

your sovereignty i mean i i agree that

if it was possible

to do a referendum

just like on the fly for like every

major decision

but the thing is that's like

kind of something that's like not

possible because yeah for a referendum

you would have the same turnout as you

would have for an election anyway so i

mean the best way to get to what people

believe or what they would vote for if

they was possible for them to vote yeah

but that that comes with my critique of

like why i have a materialist critique

of formal democracy in general is it for

that precise reason

because it doesn't actually address the

real material premises of the state it

just

addresses the premises of the state as

it formally um

as it formally establishes for itself

um it doesn't actually address whether

that state

like at the level of its material

premises represents the people

but anyway what i was trying to say um

basically would be that this isn't just

like

any other major decision this is about

like whether the afghan people want

their country to be occupied by a

foreign force

and that would be something i think like

like sovereignty itself democracy

democratic sovereignty itself

presupposes that the people are

independent like there's not a foreign

power

um that is elected by a foreign people

that is ruling over you so like that is

like the bare minimum of

determining whether the afghan people

have sovereignty in the matter is like

can they actually vote

um

on whether they want

or this foreign power to leave or not

right i mean like if they can't vote on

that

like they can't really vote on anything

at that point

um but the thing is so that's the point

of representative democracy right it's

kind of logistically

it would be kind of a [ __ ] logistically

if if democracy was all through

referendum right but that's why like if

if the afghan people wanted the us and

nato to leave in any sort of meaningful

way right they've had the opportunity

for

more than a decade to

ask their legislators to

go to the house of people and and demand

that well the issue with that is that

since the

islamic republic of afghanistan emerged

because of the the foreign intervention

when the afghan people

actually want to

challenge that state status quo and

state of affairs they're not going to do

it through the formal mechanisms

established by that state they're going

to do it through the taliban

but the thing is like but we know well

actually i can't i can't bring this up

because it's just a poll but

like

i i don't know like

i i think that al most of this

disagreement is caused by

our belief

in the validity of these polls like well

it's it's specifically not only the

validity or it's it's not only about the

reliability of the polls also it's about

whether those polls are meaningful

expressions

of the

people's um

democratic sovereignty right and i i

just think it's a really bizarre and

kind of outlandish

from like a perspective of like a

liberal or neo-liberal democracy to

judge

um

the will of the people

like in a

in a decisive and active and political

sense like you would act upon this

politically from a poll like

because if you can't vote

on whether you can be independent or not

again

um i think even from the basic classical

liberalism of the 18th and 17th century

theorists of democracy like you can't

you don't have any sovereignty to begin

with if you can't

choose something as elementary as your

own national sovereignty and whether

foreign troops are allowed to occupy

your country or not you have no

sovereignty to begin with like

whatsoever

like you need to be able at the very

minimum

have some kind of formal means of

deciding that as far as the population

is concerned

uh yeah i think this is like sort of i

don't know where to go from here because

this is sort of a bridge that like

i don't think can be crossed this is

like a pretty harsh

like

um

how would i would say it like epistemic

disagreement like on how we can derive

what people like truly want

um and how they express that thing

um

so like i don't i don't know like um

[Music]

like i don't know where to go from here

to be honest

like

also i just started smoking so i

yeah for sure

well i took edibles yesterday so

yeah i heard uh

uh

that you were you were you were [ __ ]

up and were awake till 7am you said

yelling at people yeah yeah

yeah i was [ __ ] up

also you should you should shave your

your shoulders i think they would look

nicer

nah

yeah i don't know

i mean um maybe i will tonight maybe i

won't

all right uh i think i'm i'm pretty big

well i mean it was a nice discussion you

know i'm glad

there was no i i'm gonna be honest uh

from our previous conversation i was

expecting you to to start yelling at me

and calling me a pedophile no no i mean

listen to be honest i don't take

anything personally like

um on the internet you know it's all

water under the bridge

right yeah

uh i guess i'll i'll talk to you later

maybe on a probably on a panel or

sometime yeah okay yeah that'd be good

all right good night all right bye

okay

wow that was long

it was like three hours or something

right

at least i filled up my

stream time got so many tabs open

oh let's check the reddit guys

[Music]

there's a lot of [ __ ] on the reddit

[Music]

there's a lot of stuff on the reddit you

know

[Music]

she lied i mean

[Music]

just back it up with the source okay you

have to

because i could bring up whatever source

you know so if you link me a source if

you if you think she's not telling the

truth

just link the source

you know

almost everything was a lie yeah but in

a debate you have to deal with facts you

know what i mean you have to back up

what you say with something

so

i should join your discord yeah you

should

a lot of people always get mad at me

like oh you should have said this and

you should have done it it's like dude

[Music]

if i don't have all the facts then

i can't really make a strong argument to

contest the facts at hand

um

[Music]

like if those facts are being

supported by sources

all i could do is question the like

methodology of the source you know

[Music]

yeah i think a lot of you guys expected

me to get like super mad and [ __ ]

but

um

[Music]

why wasn't that why didn't i get mad

there's no reason to you know if someone

can have a civil conversation