Absolutely Sickening Vaush Fan [WARNING: DISTURBING] 🚀 Infrared Content Catalog

trends issues why

um

because that's what i usually talk about

on here um i joined the server

i do i want that's what i talk about

i mean that's what i talk about oh okay

yeah um i joined the server because i

saw i think i saw a video against um

or it was you and perspective philosophy

um

and then

i watched that debate and then i watched

some other ones um and it seems like you

kind of have this like

um

the kind of aesthetic of like a alpha

bro male that's trying like way too hard

it's a little cringy um but then i kind

of went to the community and i mainly

disagree with the community i'm not sure

if you

agree with their takes um but

essentially

i think that

we should

allow children

to receive hormone blockers

um and if like doctors agree we should

probably allow them to

get um

yeah i uh

i just don't agree with you

yeah i just don't agree with that it's

okay so what do you not agree with

specifically

i i don't think someone can make a

decision like that for a child

do you think we can make any medical

decisions for children

uh that concern their actual like saving

their lives and their medical health but

not in terms of their sexuality i don't

i don't think they wouldn't be in terms

of their life i don't believe well it

wouldn't be well it wouldn't be in terms

of their sexuality it would be in terms

of their mental health

right but it's it's in the name of their

mental health i get that but for

purposes of uh determining their

sexuality i just don't think it's not

determining sorry not determining their

sexuality but like uh

medically altering them in a way that

pertains to this to their sex you know

sexuality so to me i just mean your

gender yeah sure because it's also not

determining that either

well gender and sexuality are related

right

i

i don't think they're interchangeable or

synonymous

i mean maybe they're related but i don't

know how that can they're not synonymous

in the sentence so that's why i was

getting confused um but by the way like

hormones like hormone blockers or just

regular like hrt

um this isn't like trying to change your

gender um this is if the kid is already

expressing um some type of um usually

like gender dysphoria like hate for

their body

um they go to like a therapist and then

that therapist signs off so they go to

an endocrinologist that endocrinologist

saying children are expressing their

babies hatred for their body yeah yeah

like uh how old are these children um

sometimes they're seven sometimes

they're they're usually like teenage

range like uh 13 14. but um specifically

yeah i i don't if you're seven years

i'll give you an example of this

so when i was six years old

six five five to seven right

um

i uh

was crying a lot and i was crying

because i wanted to be 16 years old i'm

not making this up by that i wanted to

be like 18 and the reason was because i

was watching drake and josh in those

shows

and i was like i

i want to be like older i want to live

the life i'm sick of being a kid i don't

want to be a kid anymore i'm not it

sounds might sound funny i'm not even

lying about this and i would cry to my

mom and i'd be like i want to be 17 i'm

17.

and

i'm not saying that's that's like an

analogy to trans people

who as adults

uh express this

views about uh that they have gender

dysphoria but

i'm just saying like as a kid people

kids

express all range of emotions yes

it's not enough to like

so if these emotions are consisting of

like

uh

like a large

um

feeling of like hatred towards your body

engendered senses not in like oh i'm fat

oh i'm like this type of thing it's

usually in like oh um i am

like i'm a guy i look like a guy i'm

going to grow up to have huge muscles

i'm going to have like a lot of facial

hair and it makes me really disgusting

i've known people

i've known like people who grew up

and they would tell women who would tell

me for example that they grew up always

thinking of themselves like as a boy for

example right and they mean yeah yeah

i've kind of grown up the same way like

i'm a tomboy but i've never had a

feeling of like oh i really want to be a

guy um and i'm like close

because of this they would tell me that

they had no identification with their

like

that they were women whatsoever but when

they became when they became adults the

situation changed right and they decided

you know so i'm just saying like

when you can express something as a

child but then when you're an adult you

change your mind right and to me sure

that's why we that's why we give like um

children at like really young ages um

like to what like if it's if it's like

12 or like 14 or these young ages we

usually give them like hormone blockers

um because those are pretty reversible

i i don't know about if how are they

reversible i don't

um they kind of just like haul puberty

so imagine if you're like um your body

and how i i don't think like puberty or

sexual development or those kinds of

things are well known enough to be able

to come to the conclusion that you know

this is not going to be a life

ultimately they've been they've been

researched for like

over i don't know 25 they have not been

well researched actually this

this i mean

do you have any facts about this

i

all i can say is it's not well

researched like i don't know what you

mean

okay i mean so like you're saying it's

not well researched yeah i mean do you

have

um

do you have a study that says it's not

well researched no there's no no no no

what i'm saying is do you have like the

current research and you can like point

out how it's not real well researched

you don't have to like i don't have

enough but i know that i know that not

enough is known

about it that's fine so how um it's okay

if you just know it so what's

specifically not well researched about

it

okay the way the human body works

specifically how sexuality works how

puberty works and how sexual development

works is not well known

um

i mean in general it's not

any type of like endocrine clinics or

anything or

that's not relevant it's not known for

example why puberty happens at the time

it does

it's not it's not known

it's not known for example

what the factors that go into specific

uh developmental trajectories

for uh you know a given person and their

body and their development it's not even

known for example and this is what i

know too it's not even known like what

height you're gonna your puberty is

going to take you to actually it's not

yeah sure yeah these these are all

integrated right now it's not known uh

you know if you're gonna be able to grow

a beard it's not grown like you can you

can look at your parents and roughly

guess people say oh that means it's

genetic but they haven't found the genes

and actually haven't pinpoint the actual

mechanism by which it actually happened

so these yeah

okay so you can not know how it actually

happens but you can know that it does

happen so like i don't know i'm i'm

personally not like a mechanics person i

don't really know how a sink works but

like from me using a lot of empirical

evidence when i like turn the cold water

on the sink cold water comes out so i'm

guessing if i push the cold water the

cold water comes out unless the sink is

broken or whatever so like um like we

can we can study something even if we

don't know how it works i have a quote

yeah i have a quote that some random

person in my chat said little is known

about the long-term side effects of

hormonal puberty blockers in children

with gender dysphoria although the

gender identity development service

advises this is a physically reversible

treatment if stopped it is not known

what psychological effects may be it

also not known whether hormone blockers

affect the development of the teenage

brain or children's bones side effects

may also include hot flushes fatigue and

uh alterations and i'm gonna tell you

yeah sure so these are so yeah i've

never claimed that um

that there isn't like any types of side

effects for them i never

well

they're they're not what i spend this is

the national health pattern

what i said okay so what i said was that

they're reversible which i'm pretty sure

you said in that quote no it's not what

it said it said that the gender identity

development service and i'm not sure

their bias actually

uh advises this is a physically

reversible treatment they've stopped and

that's what they're saying going off of

their word i don't know how reliable

their word is okay well i don't know how

reliable your quote is but if you are

relying on it it comes from the national

health service of the united kingdom so

that sounds pretty

okay well look so i said that it was

reversible if we don't know any um if we

don't know i really don't believe it's

reversible i don't believe it's

reversible how do you why do you not

believe that is it just because i don't

buy it i don't i don't buy that for

example at such a crucial moment of a

child's development you can just take

hormone blockers and that's not going to

have implications for your long-term

development if you cut them off and

reverse them i know how such small

things influence such development

um i mean there's probably not been as

much testing as if the person like

um goes off of hormones or not if there

hasn't been enough testing then don't

push it off

can i

so what i was saying is i don't think

there's been a lot of testing um where

they

where someone has gone on pd blockers

and then gone off of puberty blockers

for a long period of time i don't think

there's been a lot of those things

because not a lot of people like

de-transition out of the amount of trans

people that already exist well so having

that amount of study would be having

that amount of research might be hard

because i think a lot of people

um stay on it and the people who do stay

on it seems like it's working pretty

well for them so i think we should

continue providing the medication

that's why we figured out if anything

goes wrong if anything does go wrong

maybe we can revoke it um but from what

i've seen so far it doesn't seem like

there's any type of like big negative

effects from it

yeah but you just said that not like

there hasn't been a good amount of

studies for that specific circumstance

which means you don't know enough to

know whether

uh

you can you should be able to push this

on kids it's like if they want to

reverse it you're not pushing it on kids

it's a permanent decision you're making

for that it's not a permanent decision

also like you're not pushing it on kids

so usually in these um appointments when

you're trying to get like puberty

blockers what happens is that

um the they usually have like a

therapist session refer them to an

endocrinologist so they have like um an

endocrinologist is like a hormone person

i don't know if you okay yeah look i

it look it's a it's a nice sounding name

but at the end of the day these people

don't know

um you know they're an endocrinologist

mental health no i i don't i really

don't

absolutely not you don't think people

who study in their fields might know a

bit about those fields no i don't i

don't think they know anything about

them

um

i

okay well how do you well here's why

because just because you're putting a

name on it and you're creating a

profession and paying people

okay no no you're not putting a name on

your profession you're training um for

around like eight yeah well you just

interrupted me so you didn't actually

hear what i was saying whatsoever so

okay if your human changes just because

you call it something and then there's a

profession centered around uh pretending

like you know things and finding

patterns and you know doing all this

kind of stuff doesn't actually mean you

know the object you're pretending to

know in actual reality right you're an

endocrinologist uh there were people who

were um phrenologists back in the back

in the day right where they were

measuring uh or looking at people's

skulls and seeing how that the

influences or determines their

personality so just like just because

you have a profession and people are all

they're working on and that's what they

do for a living doesn't mean they know

the fucking mysteries of childhood

development and childhood psychology and

childhood mental health and things that

people haven't even been able to master

for like thousands of years and we're

still not even really close to being

able to understand that

uh

do you think

yeah so like i would love to be shown

like proof that these people really have

unlocked the secrets of childhood mental

health so much so

so much so to the point where you can

make decisions for children uh impacting

their adult futures and long-term

futures so this is the case for every

single medical field no it's not because

wait no no no here's the difference

it's absolutely not because and other no

no in other in other medical schools

in other medical fields say for

psychiatry usually you're getting

medical treatments because you already

have life-threatening or

life

harming whatever diseases and

pathologies which you have no other

choice but to treat in a way that

medical professionals would be required

in that's why for example yes it's true

for every other medical profession but

we know that those things will help you

for example in saving your life or

preventing a long-term impairment of one

of your your functions in your body you

don't know with 100 certainty but it

more or less works now this is the

decision you're talking about in this

something besides like one sentence

go ahead um yeah sure so like

uh

what what i'm saying was the logic that

you could use um earlier where you're

saying that like we don't know

everything that could happen this is

used in every single medical field no i

just explained right

i just explained why we wouldn't be yeah

in other medical fields it's a risk

first reward

it's a basic risk versus reward

situation for all the other ones

okay yeah sure and it's the same for

transgender people no it's not these

people it is not

a lot of these people when they go to

therapists um they usually talk about

like suicidal ideation in terms of

gender dysphoria so a lot of these

things if children are talking about

that i i don't think if children are

talking about suicidal ideation that

any psychological in terms of like

chemicals they should not be uh be given

chemicals in response to that in any

capacity whether it's uh pills for uh

psychological psychiatric pills for

their mental health or uh i don't

believe in any of that for children

whatsoever you don't believe in helping

children through medication

um

look you worded that in such a weasly

fucking way or you don't believe in

helping children with medication yeah of

course i do do i believe children's

psychological problems should be

addressed with chemicals no i don't do

you think we should help children's yeah

sure i mean i was asking a question so

that i could clarify the position so

um are you saying that we should

not give children any medication to help

them with mental problems

no

uh so no you're not saying that or yes i

don't i know you are no i don't think

you should

um

okay i mean

so wait really you don't think we should

give children i don't think you should

give seven-year-olds who are too hyper

ritalin and all this other dumb shit i

don't think you should give children all

these fucking pills and chemicals which

are gonna fuck them up in the long term

fuck no i don't think you should i mean

i mean yes they're gonna fuck them up in

the morning but they are fucking them up

in the long term and we're seeing it in

real time you think i would let my kids

you think i would let a doctor give my

kid fucking pills they're gonna alter

how their brain fucking works fuck no i

was raised by my parents the way my

parents were raised by their parents and

so on and so on sans maybe thousands of

fucking years we didn't have any of

these fucking pills and we've been doing

fine i'm not going to raise my fucking

kids in that way and and as far as i

know about americans and the american

people are concerned they also have

traditions of raising children that

stretch back hundreds and hundreds of

years that weren't these chemical brain

altering things for their fucking kids

so yeah i don't i i'm completely against

that hundred thousand fucking percent

okay so you're just like

like this is just a hard line you draw

it on like

uh

like any type of

medication that would help a child with

their mental problems you don't want to

ever like no no chemicals whatsoever

um

and that's just like

that's just like a morality thing for

you that's that's nothing else like you

would apply that to every other

situation

what what are you talking about

um

can't think for a second

can you mute can i think

okay

let's say if you had a child

um

that was

like

really um like they had some type of

like

mental disorder

um and this might cause them to like

commit suicide what what

mental disorder are you referring to

this is just a hypothetical i i don't

believe that's how the brain works

though i don't think you just have

mental disorders that randomly cause you

to commit

you know random acts i'm coming from the

perspective of psychoanalysis so it's

you're going to have to okay

i'm trying

you're going to be hard-pressed to give

to convince me that highly subjectivized

and highly experiential things like so

the reason i'm giving you a hypothetical

here is so that i can um try to

understand where your moral values

in relation to behavior works

there's no medical disorder that

randomly has people commit suicide it

doesn't exist in reality medical okay

well it's not how the brain works so

it's it's a hypothetical premise on the

false assumption of how brains work

okay but

okay let's say listen i know you're

trying to copy all of your speech

patterns and mannerisms from fucking

destiny but why don't you actually

listen to what i just fucking told you

you are making the false assumption that

the thing the reason why people have

suicidal ideation all this kind of stuff

is directly caused by chemically

identifiable um disorders in the brain i

don't buy that paradigm of fucking

mental health or psychiatry whatsoever

so the hypothetical is premised by an

entirely entirely according to me false

view of psychology in the first place

um yeah i don't i don't buy that either

however that's not what i was assuming

when i'm trying to give you what i'm

trying to give you is the situation in

which you could you could say for

example they may have you could try and

say for example and they need help you

can try and say for example someone can

be born with a severe case of autism

according to which they engage in highly

destructive and self-destructive

activity for example they're hitting

themselves a lot and they're doing all

this kind of things that yeah like

self-injurious behavior yeah yeah

there's forms of extreme autism uh which

fallen yeah yeah i i actually studied

this so yeah i know

yeah

so okay yeah yeah so okay in those cases

if there's some type of like pill you

can give them that might alter their

like chemistry

um but it like works 100 of the time um

would you be okay yeah sure a sedative

or something like that sure otherwise

the alternative is is they're going to

die right okay i i mean

but you have to understand you have to

understand that when you're talking

about injured you don't know if they're

gonna die like they're just like hitting

their head against a wall like i mean

well there's a height there's a high

risk that they're going to yeah they're

constantly engaging in self injurious

behavior yeah yeah

just like if a person's um constantly

engaging in suicidal thoughts where they

yeah but here's the difference

yeah the difference in the case of

suicidal ideation is that that's a

highly subjectivized phenomena which is

mediated

which is mediated actually by

consciousness it's something mediated by

consciousness in a case of severe autism

and people engaging in this repetitive

extremely uh dangerous self-destructive

behavior that's not a highly subjective

uh behavior mediated by the intro some

labyrinth of consciousness it's almost a

kind of spontaneous pathological

activity that they have four reasons

that we can at least know cannot be

addressed in the form of uh external

environmental um

uh intervention like and for example in

the way in which you talk to them and

and deal with them like they as far as

we don't even know per se but for now

there's no way we can deal with that

whatsoever

in any other way besides giving them

some kind of sedative or giving them

some kind of pill which will calm them

down and prevent them from engaging in

this uh behavior which is destructive to

them and others but that behavior can't

be like psychoanalyzed right

that behavior is just something they're

doing almost like

uh autonomy like an almost kind of like

autonomously right without any

subjective or conscious clear subjective

or conscious mediation whatsoever like

for example they're not doing this

they're like they're not like um oh yeah

i'm hitting myself and i'm hitting

people because i'm sad or because my

feelings were hurt or because i'm upset

they are just doing it and you don't

know why they're doing it right so

and you can't communicate them with in

any way to figure out why they're doing

it so in that case yeah there's no issue

but that doesn't comprise what i would

that doesn't fall under the rubric of

what i would call children's

psychological um

children's psychology because that's

more a case of physio physiology in that

case if it's something that's not uh uh

subjective or consciously mediated then

it's physiological at that point right

but in the case of children's psychology

and their mental issues and their highly

subjective consciousness whatever yeah

you don't respond to that with pills

that's something i fundamentally believe

okay so i'm trying to um so it seems

like you would respond to it by pills

though if it was like a one hundred

percent guaranteed no

it has nothing to do with it

even if it was a sixty percent guarantee

the fact that i said one zero

if it was a one hundred percent it's

irrelevant one hundred is irrelevant

even maybe in some extreme cases fifteen

percent might suffice because they're

engaging in a physiologically based not

psychological physiological based highly

self-destructive form of behavior to

themselves and others it's not about the

percentage of how much times the pill

would work it is about the nature of the

phenomena which needs to be addressed in

the first place which is not

psychological in a sense that i'm

referring to

so first of all if you're using a um

if the reason they're hitting themselves

or doing some type of self-injurious

behavior or having thoughts of suicide

if these are um no these are

like chemicals

if they can be fixed you just weaseled

something in that's implemented

if they're having thoughts of suicide if

they are spontaneously and in almost

involuntarily harming themselves or

others which is something that happens

in severe cases of autism and maybe

something like down syndrome or things

like that okay but we're not talking

about suicidal ideation ideation okay

okay we can we can scratch that and come

back to it later so um

so sure if someone's having like

self-injurious behavior um and

if the

problems are with like the chemicals in

their brain or whatever um and then you

give them a pill to regulate their their

brain chemicals um and it works 90 of

the time and ten percent of the time it

it might make their like bones slightly

bigger um but it would like

dramatically help with their like uh

life do you think that we should give

them this pill or are you kind of

against it well let me address the way

you just phrase that in two ways right

the first one is you said their brain

chemicals that's not

in the case of uh these cases that we're

talking about are not down to some like

uh arbitrary measurement of brain

cancers we're talking about a

physiological difference there's a

physiological difference for example

people who have down syndrome have

different number of chromosomes so it's

not just a matter of uh brain chemical

difference they have a very clear severe

physiological difference sure it's not

brain it requires them to be addressed

in a different way so and then and then

second of all second of all okay second

of all

the percent is irrelevant if they are

engaging in behavior in which they

cannot be controlled they cannot control

themselves where they're constantly

hitting themselves and others need to be

sedated

the risk and reward factor has obviously

tilted to the point because this is

something again

not being mediated by consciousness

something that's not highly subjective

but strictly

the risk reward factor has shift just

like if you got cancer or if you got

some kind of disease right but even if

you found a study in which you found

that 80 percent for example of

transgender people will grow up if they

don't do this to engage in self and

jerry's behavior you can't treat it as

the same thing because it's not an

involuntarily involuntarily spontaneous

physiological thing it's something

highly subjectivized and mediated

psychologically and mediated consciously

so

do you think that um subjective things

in which you like uh mediate consciously

do you think that these things can be

operationalized or no absolute this is

the number one prejudice of american

psychiatry and my answer is a resounding

no it can't

wait why not like it seems like because

these things are not reducible to their

physiological substrates and if you

target their physiological substrates in

order to affect the output you are

probably just harming and butchering uh

this person's uh uh health their

physical health do you know that like

it's

because it's not physiologically

reducible

a subject is not physiologically

reducible well yeah i

yeah i

yeah i know um yeah so it's like you

can't operationally control as someone's

subjective conscious experience with

chemicals well no

you're not sorry the word operationalize

is to mean like um to

uh

measure something subjective in an

objective way so instead of like um so

like something subjective is like

walking across the street um so like

what does that mean like we have to

operationalize to figure out uh how do

you like walk across the street so um if

you like walk across the street halfway

but then kind of like go off the like

crosswalks a bit and then go back on it

and then finish is that walking across

the street like we have these different

types of measurements and we group them

in so that we can um do like statistical

analysis

yeah

i don't think you can do so under the

paradigm of modern psychiatry and under

the paradigm of modern natural science i

don't

um

and the reason because

unlike in natural science you are

dealing with an object which is not just

an object okay in natural science you're

just dealing with object in this case

the

uh the observer themselves

shares the same uh subjective uh

uh

position of annunciation so to speak as

the so-called object well isn't that

kind of like um

doesn't this like a scientist falsely

objectivizes the other while not taking

into account they are just doing so

they're making a subjective intervention

upon another subject in the disguise

that it's merely objective don't you

think that your reasoning here um kind

of loops back into itself like um you're

saying

it it sounds like this is what you're

saying i'm not saying you are i'm trying

to get more further clarification um

it sounds like what you're saying is

that

in soft sciences

or like social sciences what they're

doing is they're taking subjective

material and um they're operationalizing

it into objective material to study it

and this is bad because it's not

objective material so what so what's

like important about objective material

am i missing something because they're

not the same thing

i mean

why does that matter towards whether

because it's not actually objective

that's why

i mean

yeah but if something highly correlates

to like one factor you can maybe you

haven't actually isolated the cause but

if you're treating it as objectively

very dangerous

you're treating the cause as an

objective even though it's not even

practically speaking you're intervening

in such a way so as to treat the cause

as something objective

by targeting the physiological

substrates when in fact it's not

objective so it's a very dangerous thing

you're doing

wait okay even

even if you're measuring things that

objective you cannot say there is an

objective cause you can never do that in

science okay but unless you're so far

an objective intervention in someone's

physiology that is what you're doing

uh

can you say that in different words

in so far as the conclusion of such a

study is going to allow you to uh

intervene in people's physiological uh

constitution with chemicals and pills

and all this kind of shit you are

fucking doing that

um

you're doing mine

you are treating it as objective

oh

and you're treating the cause as

objective because you're

well no you're not treating yes you are

you fundamentally are treating the

causes objection so if you would

so like usually in like scientific

studies

um they always i don't think they ever

say like this is the reason this happens

this is the cause 100 percent but it is

practically operationally implied in the

method of treatment what is what does

operationally implied mean it means in

the measure of the way in which the

treatment works implies that that is the

cause

um

i

but but they don't they don't yes it

does the way the treatment

works implies that it's the cause

what what study does this that they

imply it's the cause every single one

that's relevant to what you're talking

about no they usually say they have a

sort of like correlation and that they

should further continue into their

studies to figure out if the correlation

um they can repeat this

gina whatever your name is xena it's

like xena what are your friends i'm sure

you are not listening to what i'm saying

if this study is going to lead you to

the conclusion that the solution is

we're going to prescribe these pills

you are basically saying what the cause

is

um

well this well they're saying the

solution is to do this because it seems

like it's working and we should keep

going yeah but you don't know what the

cause is in the first place yeah sure

you never it just seems like these

weren't experienced but if it

it just like it's working but you don't

know what the cause is in actual reality

so what actually are you doing you don't

know this is why they say you're

tampering with something you don't know

it just apparently works

but what are the side effects what are

the long-term implications what are the

long-term results right you don't know

these things

because you don't know the cause but you

make it seem like you know the cause

when you prescribe the pills in this way

you're implying you know

have you ever looked at a medication

bottle i'm pretty sure on them they say

like oh by the way we don't know if this

will help this particular side effect

yeah but guess what

yeah but guess what like physical

medication as well yeah but like i said

in all modern science it's a matter um

okay first of all first of all

listen we are talking about the

so-called social science not the hard

science which is scientists do these as

well hard sciences do these as well all

science does this but it's not the same

because in that case you are operating

under a paradigm of how human physiology

works

how you understand how the psychological

sphere works is entirely different

i mean

uh that's because it's not

unlike in the case of like

unlike in the case of the hard

physiological medical sciences where

there are attributable causes and

effects or at least apparent causes and

effects

can you show me um a study that is of

the hard sciences and like biology or

chemistry that um that say like this

causes this can you like one obviously

those exist they don't do that yeah they

do

obviously they'll say this causes this

reaction this causes uh this uh result

obviously they do that

i'm pretty sure obviously they say this

causes this adverse reaction most of the

time or for this person

most of the time yeah sure they might

say like this has a correlative factor

no they don't say they say it causes

no they don't the first thing you learn

in every single science um like

department is correlation doesn't equal

causation yeah but that doesn't mean

that these hard sciences don't deal with

causation they do they demonstrably do

but they don't

yes they do just because they reject the

view that correlation is causation

doesn't mean they don't seek to discover

the actual causes of things yeah yeah

yeah sure in their studies

yeah exactly they do seek causation but

that doesn't mean they say what you're

talking about is absolute you're talking

about epistemology whether it's

absolutely known if this is the cause

and obviously they don't claim that but

they still are saying it's the cause

they still do

they still do make pretense to the

objective cause

and it

so i'm pretty sure you're saying that

like the main point is that it we don't

know everything it could have this side

effect it could have this side effect

yeah and what they'll say is that the

risk reward is this they talk about

listen it's risk and reward

sure the risk-reward right but the

reason it's risk and reward is is listen

the reason it's risk and reward is

because you can't deal with it just by

thinking as far as we know maybe we'll

get to a point where we can master some

kind of ancient wisdom or spirituality

where we can do that but for now if you

have for example uh if you have a

bacterial infection inside of you you

take a z-pack or something and you don't

know all you don't even know what you're

doing your body really you really don't

know but if you want to stop that

infection from getting way worse and

killing you you just take the pill and

that's what happens but when it comes to

something that's psychologically and

high mediated consciously mediated

highly subjective

when you're treating the cause of that

in the same way you're doing something

very dangerous

you're doing that the same way because

you are you are you are you are

withdrawing

you are withdrawing from and abandoning

your basic human subjectivity and

objectivizing you at your most

fundamental level

any type of non-uh over-the-counter

medication is going to be more risky

that's why they don't put it over the

counter and you have to go through like

okay

it has nothing to do with whether it's

risky when i say you're doing a very

dangerous thing i'm saying you're doing

you're engaging in a fundamental act

of denying your own subjectivity more or

less

dangerous

how's it dangerous because you're doing

because you're doing things to yourself

you're doing things to yourself which

are not only known in terms of their

effect and so on and so on but

there is no clear

relationship between the so-called

psychological result the subjective

result and what you're doing with

yourself

there's usually pretty high causation

well yeah that's that's that's why they

conclude that like we should try to

continue doing this thing it's because

it has um a correlation yeah but you

don't know what's happening in that case

you don't actually know what's happening

it apparently works

right

but you don't actually know what's

happening i guess but like i mean you

don't know what's happening in every

single scenario we could say that yeah

yeah but here's the difference since

it's something consciously and

subjectively mediated right you're not

dealing with it on the terms of its

actual existence and expression in the

form of uh subjectively and

psychologically and so on you're not

dealing with the phenomena in the cradle

of its actual essence you're dealing

with it like it's an objective natural

scientific uh

phenomena that's reducible to that

rather than for example addressing it at

the surface level

um

so in this case the correct thing would

to do for example

would be to focus on the symptom and not

look for a physical cause just focus on

the symptom

um

yeah so it seems that's what for example

psychoanalysis

psychoanalysis focuses on the symptom it

doesn't look for the actual physical

cause

are you done

go ahead

oh okay i didn't you just didn't let me

before um yeah so i think we were

talking about um

like what's the

what's the difference between

uh the subjective consonant like

the subjective um or not measuring

subjectivity uh you

record the subjectivity and then you

measure

um it through you record the recording

of the subjectivity and then measure the

recording of the recording of the

measurement because it's an infinite

recursion you know that right

right

it's this is the basic kind of german

idealist kantian paradox what you're

talking about is an infinite recursion

you can't draw a real line between

objective and subjective when the object

is subjected

okay okay please don't go down this like

um what's it called

going down this road you have come to a

place in which this is a place of

enlightenment not the place of anglo box

this is a place where we do talk about

kant yeah

right i mean you can mute i mean you can

mute me if you really don't want to hear

what i'm trying if i don't want you to

go ffff do that shit again i'll meet you

okay

um so if we're talking about it's not

trying to sound like destiny

okay

i know you say okay just like he does

too

okay so if we're talking about

subjectivity okay

so if we're talking about subjectivity

um versus objectivity

and we're trying to show the difference

between these and then you bring up an

argument in which you say

uh oh well

you see the

um

it's an infinite recursion what is

subjective what is objective it seems

like we kind of like break the whole

system and we were arguing uh under

a uh like a premise already like

of

like how we were understanding these

concepts it kind of seemed like you

broke the concepts and we have to go

back and fix them so that's why i was

not wanting to go down that path because

it seems like what happens is like uh we

were already working with like a pretty

well understood like difference between

what is subjective what is objective and

then you kind of just like broke that um

it's okay if you want to go down that

road let's go down i don't know what the

fuck you're talking about so let's go

down

okay sure so um i'm guessing i would say

subjective is usually something that you

can't like um

like physically measure that you really

have to

okay well what would you say subject you

can't really physically measure uh dark

matter or most things in quantum

mechanics modern physics are not

physically measured they're just based

on mathematics so i would not agree with

that definition of subjective

i mean can't you like

uh

okay so what's your definition of

subjective sentence

yeah subjective concerns the very

position of the annunciation of the

subject the embodied subject and the

conscious being

who is uh

intervening in the natural world the

natural so-called object of natural

science uh in such a way so as to

measure it so as to quantify it and and

so on and so on and the reason we draw

this cartesian distinction after

modernity is because we draw a fine line

between us our consciousness i who i am

my identity uh my selfhood and all this

kind of stuff we draw a distinction

between this the observer the subject

the conscious being and the world

outside of us which is apparently

outside of our

consciousness and outside of our

subjectivity and which is therefore

treated according to modern science as a

kind of dead

dead thing something that's not

a person not a subject not something

with thoughts not something which

reflexes

reflects upon itself and has the quality

of self reflexivity okay so for example

a stone does not reflect upon what is a

stone who is a stone what does the stone

do it's just a stone right that's all it

is so an object is a strict cause of the

subject

um

okay i'm gonna try to summarize this

because um

i said a lot of words

i'm just trying to you're not educated

that's the issue

okay yeah so i'm trying to get you to

educate me so that's why i'm restating

the sentence in my own words so i can

understand it so we can continue with

the conversation

can i do that go ahead

okay sure so um i'm guessing you're

saying that like subjective is something

that you can't uh observe with your

consciousness no objectives no

okay

so

um can you

say it in a way you would think i would

understand

yes i'll say it one more time

okay it has nothing to do with uh it's

not about whether you can observe it or

not it's about whether you can

externalize it and objectify it in the

first place and embody it as a thing

that is outside of you or outside of the

sphere of discursive intercommunicative

rationality if you want to go down

harmons whatever you want to call it it

is something you can externalize into a

thing

it's something you what do you mean by

externalize

something outside of the realm of

consciousness language subjectivity and

so on and so on and agents and so on and

so on so it's outside the realm of

thought consciousness subjectivity

um

wait

okay

if it's outside the thought

um like you can't

think about it that's subjective

if it is something that is not for

itself it's only for you

does it make sense better

it's only in itself like a rock it's not

for you it's not for itself you are the

subject for whom

it appears or it appears to be relevant

or significant or whatever like you know

the word subject and grammar right it's

pretty much the same thing we're talking

about a rock

would be the object you would be the

subject because their rock imposes its

significance its relevance for your

sphere of experience for you

in itself you don't have any business

with that rock

but you are the thing you are what the

rock is for as far as your world of

meaning is concerned

the rock exists for you

it when it

what it is in and of itself is not

relevant to you um

and that's not relevant to me because i

can't know if the rock exists

it's not relevant to you because insofar

as you make it relevant you become the

subject of the manner by which you

interact with it or think about it or

deal with it

uh with the rock

yeah insofar as you make this round and

a rock an object of your concern you are

the subject of the rock

um

so what do you mean by concern

if you think about it interact with it

or make it concern yourself with it in

any capacity

so if i think about the rock that means

the rock is subjective

you are the subject the manner by which

you are you are you are engaging in a

subjective

process you are thinking about a rock a

rock doesn't think about itself because

it's an object

iraq doesn't think about you as far as

you're concerned at least because

there's no language that mediates any

relationship between you and the right

okay i understand it just clicked okay

cool so um

okay so how can we translate these

concepts to what we were talking about

earlier

well you're the one who wanted to

clarify the difference between

subjective and objective well yeah

that's because it seems like okay let's

let's uh translate it then

if you are taking a given psychological

phenomena a given psychological

subjectively linguistically

consciously mediated phenomena

in reality

and treating it like an object

isolating it as an object for example

at that moment

oh are you just against like western

forms of medicine

um

where where

i'm advocating right now ultimately my

position is not relevant but for let's

say devil's advocate i'm just advocating

for a normal modernist position on the

question of modern science

you are

beyond the shadow realm of uh

the you are beyond the threshold of what

i would consider sanity with the way

you're describing it i consider uh the

modern sciences progression into trying

to treat the subjective phenomena

as a

objective natural scientific phenomena

to be a form of civilizational madness

right but

insofar as we're going before this

neoliberal period or whatever yeah the

basic modern position is that there's a

difference between a subject and an

object subjects are rationally

discursively

mediated beings through language and

through thought and so on and so on and

the objective natural world is something

outside of us the minute you start to

treat human being as an object outside

of us

in this kind of way you engage in a type

of barbarism that's the modern western

position

um of which we have departed from

significantly i don't really care if

it's the modern western position um

but

like

okay

so

um

what is

what does this have to do with the um

like

what does this have to do with the

overall point it seems like what we were

talking about before was um you had a

problem you are trying to address a

psychological mental

uh whatever subjective phenomena

in an objective way

um

how else would you treat that

of course

subjectively but how do you measure

something subjectively you don't you

don't measure it that's the thing you

don't measure

how can you measure an individual

experience you can't

yeah you if you like objectively measure

it that's fine but like okay so can't

measure someone's actual subjectivity

how do you make any studies off of

subjective experiences then

that's why i think uh modern psychology

is all bullshit throw it in the garbage

oh okay i gotta throw it in the dumpster

all of it burn it all like they burned

like the mongols sat the library of

baghdad like uh julius caesar

accidentally destroyed the library of

alexandria burn burn burn destroy all of

it fahrenheit 451 yeah okay of course um

got it

um

yeah okay and um so you're saying that

the

like you just can't

uh give a

objective reason for a

um subjective experience

no

and what's the reason at least if we're

in the realm of modern science no

yes well

i mean

you you can do it if we operate from the

basic cartesian distinction which is the

founding of modern natural science and

the medical field and everything no you

can't

[Music]

um

what do you mean no you i mean i can't

can you measure love measure love for me

um you can

okay sure you can um go ahead and give

people a survey and then you can say hey

have you felt in love before and then

they could mark yes or no and you mark

those numbers down as one and two and

then you can start uh pushing putting

this on

so your inputs and your outputs are

basically what are they going to output

on the survey so for example the way you

would interact with that operationally

would be you know you would produce a

different all this time they said no

they didn't love their mother right

you're not actually addressing the core

of their experience though in any kind

of way you know how you address the core

of their experience you'd say let's talk

about your mother that's what freud said

he said sit down let's talk about your

mother let's walk through your

experience as a child let's actually

explore that let's not treat it as a

static objectified output

because we're lazy and we don't actually

care about people's inner experience we

just care about the extent to which they

comprise

phenomenal impressions on our horizon of

experience you're basically saying oh

get this phenomena you're just treating

the phenomena's output not actually

addressing its actual essence or its

actual uh real cost well measuring the

output is how we figure out no it's not

because listen this is why americans are

fucked up in the head you are you you're

now you are intervening and manipulating

all over the outskirts

or anything you are all you people of

the medical establishment you are

manipulating everyone's output because

you're sick of people complaining and

whining and you're doing it to such a

point that you give them all these pills

and they become zombies all the output's

fine but inside deep inside in their

subjective experience they are screaming

and then when they go and commit suicide

you go huh well we gave them all the

pills and we did all this

i wonder why they went and committed

suicide because you didn't even fucking

interact with them in a human way you

treated them as a fucking object and you

just gave a bunch of fucking pills to

solve their fucking problems because you

were sick of the phenomenal output

without concerning yourself in any

critical capacity whatsoever for the

real cause

so

i'm not a psychiatrist by the way yeah

but through the medical establishment

and your consensus has led to the

so-called crisis of mental health we are

now experiencing in america i mean i

blame you

okay

so

um

yeah so the

i think what you have a problem is is

people measuring

things

um in an objective way but measuring

subjective things yeah in an objective

way yeah yeah um yeah that's what i

meant sorry

so

um how do you measure things in a

subjective way and if you can't which

you just don't measure it measurement

implies quantification sure so do you

human interaction how do you know

treatment how do you know the treatment

for i'll explain to you how you know

how do you know if a treatment for a

subjective um problem is helping you

cannot treat a subjective problem from

the perspective of medical natural

science you can't

i would say go seek religion go seek

psychoanalysis go seek spirituality

that's how i would respond to it and let

me tell you why the d here's where the

line begins and ends wait when you are

talking about how to subjectively help

someone you're implying two things

you're dealing with two things

let's say there's someone who's fucking

miserable with life and i want to treat

them right

there's two things that are being

implied here one i'm assuming a state of

subjective happiness a baseline norm and

i'm saying you know what this person's

miserable but they could be happy

because i know happiness i've

experienced happiness why don't i try to

interact with them in a way so they

could see what i'm able to see right

that's how that's one so you are

assuming a premise that happiness is

possible as a human being that's an

extremely subjective spiritual whatever

you want to call uh assumption because

what if the from a philosophical

perspective what if the miserable person

is right and they're actually true what

if they're correct what if there is no

meaning to the world that if we are

honest with ourselves about what our

place in the universe and in the cosmos

is we should be fucking miserable there

are philosophers who have written that

the only honest thing humanity can do is

collectively commit suicide right this

is a this is up for contention that must

be dealt with spiritual and

philosophically it's not a given you

can't just assume that people should be

happy or people should be okay so that's

one of the ways it's subjectively loaded

the second thing you're going to be

assuming

is that you can communicate with them in

such a way that as a human being as a

subject you are basically the same as

them that you like them are human and

that even though you don't know them

you are you are

living in the same world as them living

in the same universe as them and sharing

the same subjective discursive uh

rational whatever you want space as them

not you're not some scientist in other

words who's above them who's going to

solve their problems and cure them

magically you are no different than them

you're just another fucking guy right

you're going to communicate them get on

their level and they're going to come to

an understanding that you are just like

them and vice versa and so on so you're

going to work with them in a way that is

mutually imperiling both your

subjectivities you're not going to be a

scientist sitting in his ivory tower

who's just assuming that his

subjectivity is safeguarded and

unaltered and he's just going to treat

this person like an experiment you as

the person intervening in this person's

life you're going to put your skin in

the game you're going to put your own

heart on the line too right that's what

it means to help a friend in need when

you have a friend in need who's suicidal

and depressed you don't go up to them

like you're an impartial scientist who

doesn't you know who's outside you're

gonna say look dude i get it i

understand i'm miserable too you know

like and then you give them words of

encouragement you do things like that

you be a human being who's able to get

on their human level those are the two

things you have to be assuming when

you're talking about subjectively

treating someone things like

quantification things like measurement

that kind of shit doesn't fucking figure

into it

wait okay

so

how do we figure out if like um these

types of like subjective ways of

of treating subjective measurements how

do we figure out

what the fuck did you just say

subjective ways of treating subjective

measurements what the hell yeah if you

have like if you have like a therapy

there are no measurements there are no

measurements so objective or objective

whatever that means objective there's no

mess of it can i speak so if you have a

um

if you have a

person who's going through a really

tough time

um

and

you know you're trying to be there for a

friend

um like and then it's like oh cool

um you know maybe this helps them would

it not help this person how do we know

um you don't think maybe we should

that's the contingency of a subjectivity

yeah we don't know so so is there

because i think there's a way that we

can no no if we combine these

experiences so let's say like this

person had this experience this person

had this experience this person had this

absolutely not we're all kind of human

there is no

mutual subjective interaction in that

case whatsoever

you don't think we can ever make you are

trying to

you are trying to foreclose a mutually

subjective experience and substitute it

with taking the sum total of subjective

experiences and producing an objective

result and you can't do that

um

i mean you can

no you can't by definition you can't

i'm pretty sure wait can you repeat it

hello so

can i repeat it no i'm not gonna fucking

repeat it i'm sick of you asking me to

repeat shit that i've been trying so

hard

so fucking hard for you to understand

something so fucking simple you're

treating it as objective but it is

actually not objective

wait um you're not okay you're not true

you can treat it like it's objective but

in reality it's not if you agree

where is the objectivity then in that

okay you're not treating the um

subjectivity with like an objective

statement um if you're going through

like a therapeutic approach um you would

be measuring it in objective standards

which isn't um that isn't you

interacting

um with the human at that point like you

would be uh you would be doing this as a

listen from the perspective of modern

science modern science not the monster

that is outgrown that lives now modern

science is in cartesian modern science

so-called psychological health begins

and ends when you say as a human being i

am no different than you i don't know

something objectively that you don't

know but i have found a way to

understand the wisdoms and the trials

and tribulations of reality let's say

i'm your father i'm your grandfather

that can help you or i'm someone in your

life whatever

but

ultimately i don't have knowledge in the

sense of modern science which is going

to solve your problem we're all here

we're all here i don't know something

you don't fucking know right we're all

here sharing the same uh we are all here

no you don't not in the sense of

objection

right

we are all here experiencing reality in

real time i don't know something in

terms of someone's spiritual

psychological conscious predicament that

they don't know in the sense of the

knowledge relevant to modern science i'm

here just like you're here i'm dealing

with the fundamental torsion the

fundamental cut at the heart of being

that gives rise to self-reflexivity and

subjectivity the fundamental melodrama

of human being of human ontology i am

also at the mercy of that just like you

are we have in a sense the same problem

okay i don't have a solution to the

problem uh you don't have because i have

the same problem and

the only thing we can do is i have

learned to come to peace with this

problem in a specific way right but i

don't i don't i haven't found a way to

abstract myself from this problem that

is subject object division

um

okay

um

i have a question for you

yeah

um

would you say you're a confident person

okay

would you yeah

yeah yeah i would do um so like

if you are trying to explain like let's

say someone like a close friend comes to

you um and they say hey

um

well i'm not feeling very confident i'm

i need a solution

would you say well this is a subjective

experience i don't i could never know

what you're facing what um and i could

uh no you know this is this is something

that you literally listen to like any

type of other situations or anything or

are you generally i want to ask the

question one question no the knowledge

you know yeah yeah i'm so smart by the

way you're so smart open question

are you and maybe i'm not i'm not doing

this to make fun of you i mean i don't

make assumptions

do you have like a physiological uh

impairment that doesn't allow you to

like um

communicate with people or like

understand what people say you have like

a language disability problem anything

like that i should be aware of before i

uh

let's talk about this because i'm pretty

sure i remember saying pretty clearly

that language is what mediates

uh the common

mutually subjective experience between

subjects so no you don't say oh i could

never know you get on their fucking

levels oh what's going on why don't you

have confidence how do i give my own

fucking check that's the worst example

you're gonna give you go by example and

if there's still a barrier a fundamental

barrier that you can't like the reason

why you have objective natural science

is because there's a barrier i can talk

to a rock all i fucking want there's

some kind of barrier that can't be

bridged right

now if you're a humanist whatever

barrier is going on between you and

another human being you're going to try

the hardest you can if you're a friend

to cross that barrier if you fail you

bring your friend to someone else and

you keep trying and you bring them to a

holy person you bring them to a chef you

bring them to a priest you bring them to

somebody and uh someone said who's

smarter than you

but ultimately the truth is you have the

same problem that they do

um and this most of the time most of the

time how it works

is if there's if you have a depressed

friend most of the time is that the

person can't help their friend

because if they were honest with

themselves they're no better they would

also be depressed too it's just they're

too stupid to realize it right if you

come from a perspective for example of

uh psychoanalysis or psychology

something like this

then it's going to be different because

you have acquired an interest in these

things because you are yourself trying

to cope and deal with this pathologies

or it can even be religion right if

you're a very spiritual person you say

oh i understood where you were that's

why i adopted religion that's how jesus

saved my fucking life and prevented me

from fucking i'm not me personally but

i've talked to so many fucking people

who come in from the place jesus saved

my fucking life it wasn't for jesus i

would have fucking killed myself so many

people have told me that right so yeah

everybody has

the same problem basically not the same

form of this problem but nobody's above

somebody else where they're gonna act

like there's some kind of a lab quote

scientist who know who has some kind of

yeah you know objectively anybody else

but some people are more like

experienced just like you said right and

what these scientists you are talking

about are spiritual pygmies they're not

experiencing anything if i wouldn't fuck

their wife they would cry and break down

entirely

don't tell me these scientists are

experienced people they are experienced

in nothing nothing that concerns the

fundamental wisdom of human experience

now their experience when going to

school and being eggheads and writing

shit on their clipboard and whatever the

fuck they're doing but they are not

experienced in the sense of fundamental

human experience don't give me that

bullshit my fucking grandma more

experience than scientist

okay so do you think your grandma is

more experienced on something that maybe

she hasn't read a lot about um versus

like a person who's read a lot about a

subject talked to a lot of people on the

subject has like um done a lot of this

okay listen destiny clone destiny clone

number five thousand four hundred and

forty four yeah but you don't which you

seem to not fucking understand right and

your destiny voice is so fucking

annoying by the way

what we are talking about you're not

just talking about reading something

you're again that something is something

fundamentally subjective so don't get it

twisted and try to weasel your way into

making this a knock and say oh do you

think that maybe a nuclear scientist

knows more about your grandma than how

to on how to operate a nuclear reactor

yeah obviously but we're not talking

about the same fucking things here are

we

just stay on topic about how to best

help trans people um let's say like

trans people are really struggling um

with like their identity they're saying

hey listen you know what here's what i

believe if you're an adult if you're an

adult you do whatever the fuck you want

do whatever you want do whatever you see

fit i'm not going to bother you

but i'm against you pushing this on

children

um i wouldn't want to push it on

children i'm against you putting

hormones on children manipulating with

children's sexuality uh giving them

hormone ball blockers and puberty

blockers that are going to permanently

alter them for life you know there could

be a guy what if there's a little boy

he was destined to grow up with a really

big beard really strong muscles super

tall really big manly man you give him

these blockers then he regrets it and

then for the rest of his life he's going

to be more feminine right and he just

took something away that he'll never get

back testosterone i don't know like

no you took away for something from him

he will never get back

that's what he wanted right he was too

stupid to know what he wanted because he

was a fucking seven-year-old child

he was a seven-year-old child he was too

stupid to know what he wanted that's why

you go to that's why you go to a

therapist

fucking know even doctors don't know

shit i went to the fucking doctor once

uh about a fucking something stuck up my

fucking noses and all there's nothing in

her nose nothing your nose i blew it out

there was something in my fucking nose

even doc you acting like these people

know everything in the fucking world and

they don't this this is a personal

example and that's not like there's

plenty of examples of plenty of people

you know

even fucking doctors don't know at all

has unlocked the secrets of the human

mind

even fucking doctors don't even know how

our body works but we still do it anyway

because we have to but when it comes to

our mental subjective space you

understand modern science rests upon the

assumption that my body is different

from my head my consciousness my soul

i'm gonna my body breaks so i go to the

doctor fix my body when you're targeting

the inner experience of consciousness

and subjectivity with pills and shit you

are violating someone's humanity at its

most visceral level when they're a

fucking child

um

okay and gender identity is one of those

things that are inner

inner visceral experience you are

altering with something of a child they

don't know anything that's a child a

child doesn't know anything and you're

gonna fucking make a decision a

life-altering decision that's gonna

impact them for the rest of their life

hell no

um

i don't i haven't seen any uh

information that shows you

a robot you're a robot

uh well

you're coping pretending to listen

you've trained yourself to talk like

destiny and talk like a robot because

this is how you cope with the this is

how you cope with life to be a robot

this impartial robotic type of person i

see right past you xena i see right past

your robotic facade i see right past the

robotic facade

you're an emotional person you're gonna

break down and cry in time in your life

you're not you're not you're not some

robotic uh destiny type of person you're

sorry you're not

you do that because it makes you feel

powerful it makes you feel elevated

makes you feel above the world you're

not above the lord you're below the

world

uh okay wait are you saying i'm below

by you saying i'm below the world

doesn't that make you feel like you're

above the world and that's what you're

trying to do with you except it's true

except it's true okay yeah

uh okay so how much destiny have you

watched

um i watched him back in uh 2018 but i

don't know how that has to do with any

of those you learn all his ways of

talking

um okay well it sounds like you've

watched a lot of hassan

i didn't watch a lot i didn't watch that

much on what about john circus because

that's the guy i'm most familiar with

john circle but even then i don't copy

him well

i'm 100 what

john cena

really am i yeah 100 100

yeah

yeah i'm not that's a cope

that's a pope

you you even try to laugh like destiny

what is wrong with you like a skin

crawler you're like you're walking

around in destiny's skin you're like be

it's like you want to be destiny himself

um

i mean not really i share that creepy

you're literally creepy

you know he's his own person right

you're an over excited fan you're an

overly enthusiastic fan and you might

even be like that stephen king i tell

destiny worry for these people because

you seem to be like that stephen king

movie where you're gonna capture him

what's that movie where the the fan

captures the author

what's that movie guys what's that movie

everybody knows that movie the she

captures the author let's hope let's

hope you're never in the room with me

misery

misery that's what's gonna be this

better watch out because i i fear for

him by consulting me and stuff um but of

all the people

uh i'd love to but

because you are a robotic broken record

you keep saying things i've already

addressed you're not moving past what's

already been addressed and addressing it

in a new way you're just saying the same

thing you did before

okay you've literally said that like um

that like

you can't treat any type of subjective

science this is a pretty like

uh crazy claim oh we live in a crazy

world don't worry

okay

so i'm trying to uh there's no

subjective science all soft science is

bullshit it's not science i think that

all this is what i believe oh you know

here's what i believe all non-stem

education

uh all non-stem hardcore science

education should not only be bankrupted

destroyed abbas and so on but in a legal

way a legal way ceremoniously by the

government government will do it

ceremoniously bulldozed and burned down

really corrupt to me personally

huh

that sounds really corrupt to me um and

all the people who are peddling this

false pit they should all be thrown in

jail that's what i believe too

dude i love just taking away people's

freedom of speech i agree i i think

that's because our freedom of speech has

led to the abuse of children so i want

to protect children

um

okay do you have any evidence um

showing that like

there is some type of like abuse towards

children why why not this is so silly

this is what lacon calls the discourse

of the university why do you demand

objective efforts when you know very

well that i qualify giving children

hormonal blockers a form of abuse why do

you need evidence there is nothing

empirically industry you think

right there is nothing empirically in

dispute right now nothing is empirically

speaking in dispute you look at one

thing like for example you see bosses

for example it's not empirically in

dispute that vosh is saying pedo shit

but you just deny it's pedal shit right

so you don't have to say what is the

evidence you have to say why are you

calling it pedal shit you don't need to

this copium of uh

evidence is your copy you got evidence

you got evidence you got evidence i

didn't know what you

you got evidence

so i i didn't know what you meant by

child abuse but now you have evidence

you didn't know what i meant by child

abuse

yeah i asked it do you have evidence you

asked it

uh

i mean aren't you streaming do you have

evidence that you just asked me the

question are you streaming

um

look

it's getting late um i'd love to talk to

you again you have you have any evidence

that um it's getting late

um

and do you have any evidence that you

consider it good to talk to me if you um

if you're just gonna keep doing this

um you you have any evidence of what i'm

gonna keep doing no let's let's shift to

washington i understand let's let's

shift

i just gotta go old fashioned

or whatever yeah yeah i just got told

you defend vasha's pedophilia let's talk

about that type of stuff um like i don't

know if you're gonna

keep doing this type of well i mean

it's do you have any evidence like i

don't know dude

let's talk about your defense of washes

uh pro pedo takes

pro pedo tanks yeah

you defended them in the before right

i uh i think i said i'm pretty sure that

a lot of the clips that people were

posting were taken out of context and i

don't think wait they were taken out of

context from the discord

um yeah people were posting clips okay

yeah

situate their contacts properly

um sure so i'm pretty sure there is a

clip um i'd have to look back on it

um i'm pretty sure there was a clip

that said

um

oh vash was saying like

i think it's totally okay

for

um

for people to

um

have like

or people to like

um use child pornography

for time some type of uh

for some type of value to be gained in

society uh he said this type of claim

um

but the thing was it like cut off right

there and uh the rest of the claim was

if we are going to

um allow

different types of uh

what they call like um

things you produce

uh yeah things you produce if we're

gonna allow different types of things

you produce and like buy

um if we're going to allow these types

of things to be made by children in like

uh child labor places so he was trying

to like compare it to that it was a

really like bad comparison uh it sounds

really bad but like hold on hold on

but vosh knows that there's no way we

already are having

i'm not like

we are already consuming computers and

all that kind of stuff so the only

meaning that vos could be saying is oh

we should just allow we may as well

allow it if we're going to continue

to consume his antibiotics both so he

was anti um

he was trying to give an argument

against uh

i think he was talking about like a

vegan discussion

um and he was saying like

uh

yeah he was talking to like a vegan and

he was saying like the hypocrisy

of

um

a situation in which

someone

would say i'm not going to yeah but

that's a you know that's a pro pedal

porn cake right he's defending pedoporn

in context now ultimately he may believe

there's another ultimately ultimately he

might claim that he's that's the rape of

children right no no ultimately he may

believe that in the big rock candy

mountain there shouldn't be any but

insofar as we live in this fallen

depraved world we may as well have it

right

um

and

here's what's interesting is that

what about the other clip where he just

straight up said there's nothing morally

wrong with it

uh i'd have to see the clip i want to

watch it right now i'm not super well

read on this yeah do you want to watch

it now

yeah can you like share your screen yeah

we're going to go on and do it right now

peter wiley

wow

i uh so

my original claim that i made was i

don't think he said anything like

pedophilic um

someone in the discord uh

link it to me link it to me

uh so

vlog

i'm going to show you a few of these

actually because there's actually a lot

so we're going to just see

some not all there's way more than this

right but

sure yeah yeah

i mean

i don't know what the point of this is

like yeah sure i just want to see if

this was all taken out of context

okay sure i mean like

i don't know what um

i'm not like a huge

viewer person so i'm not going to know

every single like clip or whatever sure

sure

yeah we're going to see um

we're going to see right we're going to

see if this holds up so let's look at

vaush

and uh

i'm going to mute my mic and i'm going

to give you a chance to watch

all right cp is free if you're can you

pause the defensive path

no it's just a delay

not paying for child pornography then

there was no art wait it wouldn't be a

delay

can you shut up so we can you're you're

interrupting it you're not streaming it

yes i am there's a fucking delay

wait no there isn't if you if you share

your screen there's no delay i'm not

going to share my stream on my screen

um i thought you were going to share it

on the uh on like this just watch it on

twitch

so the audience can see too wait

wouldn't it be easier to just um have

like your youtube

like tab and then go to your share

screen thing on discord and then share

it so that we can watch it in real time

no just do this

okay let me let me open up your screen a

second

there's gonna be a delay

okay i have to open up your stream

i think it's gonna give me another cp is

free

yep

if you're not paying for child

pornography then there is no argument in

favor of morally condemning people who

get it

i would not say that it is unethical for

free person to purchase child

pornography it's just morally neutral

it's not ethical it's not unethical

should a consuming child be legal i

think that that would be yes more legal

and more ethically consistent yes

we didn't it like cut off right there in

the clip

you want to play it again

didn't it cut off right there you know

the context for why he said that

um

oh shit

um i mean i don't know the exact context

but i do know it's cut off like you

could

i mean all right let me let me ask you

uh let me ask you i don't even know how

to put this on

let me let me read you something from

walsh's discord if you need the evidence

i can send it to you from can you tell

me the context of this where this would

be uh permissible

well wait if the sex spot is just a toy

then why does it matter if an adult

fucks a kid robot

um

so

i mean he's probably being edgy i mean

is that edgy

yeah

now he's talking about lolly sex bots is

that just edgy

um

i mean

i mean technically like

if you uh

he's not wrong like if you have a

like it's not harming your children

that's that's why the take is funny i

think

wait there's nothing wrong with that

i mean if you're if it's not gonna lead

you to harming actual children if you're

just like looking at like you you don't

think that the fundamental pathology

of pedophilia

is something inherently fucked up

and you want it you think that you think

it it's okay if there's actually a

pedophile acting upon their uh

fantasies as long as no children are

involved

as long as no children get hurt yeah

i'm anti-children getting raped so as

long as you're actually cultivating

you're promoting the culture of children

eventually getting hurt well yeah yeah

if we if we're promoting something that

would lead to children getting raped i

wouldn't that of course it would happen

what do you think the fantasy comes from

um

you people you fucking people and by you

people i mean you left this you boycott

all media dave chappelle video games for

the slightest smallest shit right it's

not politically correct but you're okay

with robots that are made in the image

of children for people to uh have sex

with yeah if it leads to you you're okay

with uh vr lolliporn if it let if it

leads to less children getting raped

then yeah

are you okay i think it just speaks for

itself no i really just think this

speaks for itself are you not for things

that give children i am 100

against pedophilia in all its

manifestations

i mean i think every pedophile belongs

in prison

oh i'm at the minimum

whether they harm children or not

that's kind of fucked um

anyone who has pedophilic feelings who

has uh engaged in any type of

pornography whether it's involving real

people or not anything of that matter

should belong in prison

so

um

i mean

all culture which promotes the abuse of

children should lead to criminal charges

that's my view

um

i mean yeah if it leads to the abuse of

children yeah

all culture

no which gives expression and fantasizes

about the abusive children should be

criminalized

um

i think if you're fantasizing about

fucking

dave chappelle can't tell jokes on

netflix but this is allowed right

okay what do you think about dave

chappelle

what do i think about dave shepard yeah

should he should was netflix responsible

in giving him a platform

um

were they responsible in giving him a

platform i mean yeah that's like

objective yeah

it's okay

with you're asking are they were they

responsible i mean yeah they were no

were they was it a good thing do you

agree with their decision the platform

yeah

um yeah sure i don't i don't think like

these types of things should be

prevented from being on netflix

okay

what about

uh what about um

white supremacists on twitch or on uh

youtube what about them

um i think as a as long as they're not

um like contributing to some type of

like

advocation for harm

uh i'm not really one for like silencing

people what if they just okay what if

they just want to fantasize about it

like what if there's a game on steam

where white supremacists want to

fantasize about committing

arts of iron for

no were they

for example the game hatred and games

where people fantasize about committing

highness acts of violence against

minorities would you would you be okay

with steam having that on their platform

i mean yeah it's fine you okay with that

yeah it's called call of duty

that's what the game

so you're okay with the steam game like

uh ku klux klan role-playing game

um

i mean yeah sure you okay with it

you would not protest to have an issue

i mean i might be like that's a little

weird but

what about if it was against sexual

minorities

wait just a second what the fuck

are you playing music in your background

no

okay i just got some like epic battle

music from somewhere i don't know where

i came from

what if it was uh against like sexual

amount like transgender people and stuff

you would not have a problem with it

if they're like if it's a game

um so i mean i would have a problem with

it

so if okay

during how you're doing wait i just gave

you an example of a clan role-playing

game where you're attacking racial

minorities and

people i bring this up you're gonna have

that but black

nuance and you're gonna have second

thoughts during these issues

during these issues um i'm assuming that

like

there's no type of like outside

consequences for these things so like if

you ask me no there's no such thing as a

vacuum everything is related yeah sure

sure so it not in a vacuum yeah i'd

probably not be okay okay so steam i'm

not talking about a hypothetical world

talking about now are you are you

listening to something no i'm not i'm

talking about now

on steam

now like right now right not a

hypothetical vacuum on steam

are you okay with uh

uh nazi and ku klux klan and this kind

of violent stuff

um now just write how it is how it is

now

am i

if they made a game out of it yeah

um

yeah it'd probably be not really for

that okay so when vows talks about how

he can't wait for there to be uh or how

sorry he anticipates

that um if you really want to

f children wait 20 years for vr

lolliporn and don't tell anybody you use

it you said you kind of agreed with him

about the robots and the vr porn

did your mind change or what because you

said you agreed with him well i

um

i'm trying to figure out how the best

way to phrase this is

um

i

agree with him in the sense that like

if that

is

something that would prevent you

from

going out and like harming

uh wait but that's not hold on hold on

hold on

however we're not talking about we're

not talking about that we're talking

about here and now i'm talking about

future sex robots because it's tech

listen your original argument is that

technically shut up shut up your

original argument was not about the

consequences leading to less harm you

said since children are not being harmed

in the consumption of this media

minorities including trans people are

not being harmed in the consumption of

this violent video game hypothetically i

was talking about yeah and yeah you

managed to say

you managed to claim that you're against

it right but when it comes to pedophile

content you're for it it's okay

so in the background of these issues so

like if we're if we have a game

um

so the problem with like these like

situations since they're not in a vacuum

you have to like

uh figure out what would be the things

that would happen from these types of

situations and in some situations i

don't know i don't know what happens

when pedophiles watch lolly porn um

but that's not what you said before are

you walking back your position now

because your position before was that

since children are not involved there is

no issue i thought we were talking about

in a vacuum but there were no ways you

said since no we're not no one mentioned

the vacuum so i don't grant you that

assumption okay no one granted nobody

was

when you say like hey um if you had um a

train

and uh you could switch the train track

so that you'd kill one person instead of

five people would you do it and then i

in a vacuum i would think oh yeah i

would do that however if we actually

think about like the situation and

everything like me going and doing that

xenon xena xena you're trying to weasel

your way out so let me walk it back to

you i read out a quote by wash well wait

if the sex box is just a toy then why

does it matter if an adult fucks a kid

robot we did not talk about a vacuum we

didn't talk about the real world

consequences we talked about none of

those things all you said was that yeah

i agree with him because an actual child

is not involved and we went through the

course of argumentation on that basis

then i gave you examples of violent

video games where minorities including

trans people are not involved obviously

it's just a video game and there's

you're committing acts of violence

against them and you managed to muster

the ability to say that you would be

against this well why initially did you

say you had no issue with what val said

so

because i'm assuming in this interaction

that there's um like if

the pedophile's like watching wally porn

um then they're not going to be

going out and like raping kids because

they can do something that wouldn't harm

kids but if they just want to harm kids

um and this is like leading them towards

that then yeah that's kind of fucked and

i wouldn't want to wait wait hold on why

didn't you say that oh i'm i'm just

assuming that uh

you know you didn't say that you said

because kids are not involved there's no

issue

um

you said you agreed with vox

because you agreed with your sentence

don't talk about arming kids i said

specifically it's because it's not

harming kids you said that way after

when i cornered you i said it's because

it's not harming kids i'm pretty sure no

that's not what you said

you said because it's not harming kids

in concern

so so that's what i meant then but then

when i said for example this is what let

me explain what actually happened since

your memory is so short what i actually

said in response was you're promoting

fuck up i don't really care what i said

and what i said what i said what i meant

no i

you're trying to fucking cover up what

happened i am the one who said oh so you

want to foster a culture that's going to

lead people to commit kids oh no in that

case no i just agree with the opposite i

agree that it's not going to so when

only when i brought up the fact that

it's a culture that promotes pedophilia

which is self-evident fact you decided

to adopt the opposite position but

for example in the case of games where

you're committing violence against

minorities

all of a sudden it's common sense that

we should all agree that oh if you're

doing it in a video game you're

promoting a culture that fosters

violence against minorities then why

isn't it that when you have sex robots

you're not promoting a culture that

promotes violence against children why

is it okay to have pedophile content as

long as children aren't involved but not

content that is promoting violence

against minorities why do you have this

this why is it that one is okay not the

other

okay it's because um i don't think that

the ideation towards like wanting to

kill minorities is the same as like

wanting to have sex with why not because

i think um the ideology of

like nazism and white supremacy sure i

think these things are more of

i think these things are more

because they want to see minorities dead

um and not because they get like

satisfaction that's not necessary

so like and they don't i don't think

they get satisfaction from it

i don't think there's a visceral racial

hatred underpinning that ideology from

which they do get satisfaction

so do i have to just merely add the rape

can i

okay so in both situations um

if you if you're gonna say something

that i already anticipate i'm gonna cut

you off

by the way yeah that's fine and if you

if i don't uh i don't finish i'm gonna

cut you off

so

um

okay

when we so there's two different

variables there is wanting to

actually do it just because you like you

want to do the thing and then getting

pleasure from seeing

the thing uh

[Music]

yeah i already anticipate your fucking

argument shut the fuck up you're saying

pathological sexual satisfaction is not

inherently ideological it's a

physiological pathological sexual

satisfaction so yeah first of all that's

making two assumptions one the

assumption that violent racial hatred

and violent hatred against minorities is

not fundamentally pathological in a

psychological sense every psychoanalyst

would disagree with you on that point

the second assumption that you're making

which is other analysis

the second assumption you're making

which is fundamentally fucking wrong is

that all i would have to do according to

your own logic if we live in this la la

land according to which there is no

psychological pathology of satisfaction

and enjoyment which is not merely

ideological in a racial hatred against

minorities is add the variable of okay

what if it's just a simulator where you

can rape women i'm an incel misogynist

simulator where people massage in cells

have fantasy of being able to rape women

commit violence against women okay so i

can i can make all of these um

all of these examples the last one is

qualitatively different so you're not

gonna put it under one umbrella

okay i'm going to make all of these

um

all these situations clear okay so

um i think

it's okay

uh

for you

to

if it's like let's say you have a desire

to do something and then whenever you do

if you could do that thing but nobody

gets hurt um that desire would like go

away

um and

like for for the period of time and you

would be like um

that problem would be resolved including

violence against trans people in the

video game yeah sure if you have like

some type of i'm not saying by the way

for the audience i'm not saying in a

video game like oh i just get like i'm

saying like a steam game yeah

well so i'm not sure if like these

things should be like held to the public

if they're for these types of things

because i think that can have some like

negative implications but oh shit i

think that well no uh

it's not going to lead to any harm to

children at all in the long term yeah

why are you now wait but

yeah but intuitively speaking you know

that's not true for a video game where

you're engaging in violence against

trans people intuitively you seem to

understand

no no

intuitively you seem to be able to

understand that in that case of course

it's going to have real world

implications

because

the reason is because in this situation

um i'm assuming that the person who

wants to

uh

like kill the trans people in the video

game actually wants to kill trans people

in real life and is like going to do it

why not

um

what well yeah however in both

situations um if the person who's like

killing the trans person in the video

game if that's going to help them um not

kill trans people in real life i would

want them to i would rather them have a

video game where they can kill trans

people okay sure so why do you make the

intuitive assumption that the pedophile

is not going to lead to an outcome of

more children being harmed but in the

case of a trans game it is going to lead

to more trans people being harmed

because i think the um

the difference between these is like

pedophiles usually

they're um they just have like an

attraction to something so there's no

ideology involved right yeah i don't

think i don't think there's like a

belief so what okay

then let's since we're not going to

agree on that point let me give you

something that you probably should be

able to agree on why is it that there's

ideology involved in a rape simulator

then what if a guy is just horny and

wants to and has a kink where he

fantasizes about committing sexual

assault against women

yeah and then he goes into like a rape

simulator or whatever yeah on steam in

it and uh

and this is like closed off to the

public no

it's a public just like the pedal shit

it's a problem okay i wouldn't want it

to be public in in every single

situation

yeah i don't i i

can the pedal robot can be public

no

but but valsha said well wait if the sex

spot is just a toy then why does it

matter if an adult fucks a kid robot

when did he say that it's gonna be

public on steam

it's a house how else does this robot be

obtained

um you could go to like a therapist to

like um

like you think volkswagen is implying

this is a therapist uh

if form of therapy the therapist i mean

it might be

well that's an assumption

but let's also an assumption to assume

it's going to be like a public thing on

steam that everyone's going to be listen

listen i want to explain to you the

actual context even though it'd be just

as disgusting and highness we can go

down that route i want to just clarify

so you can't gaslight the audience about

what actually happened

bosch was implying in his discord thing

that it is completely morally uh

neutral nothing morally wrong it's just

a bot doesn't matter if an adult fucks a

kid robot because it's just a toy and

you said you agreed on that there was no

implication about therapy there was no

implication that this is going to be

closed off from the public yeah he said

he said point blank period if there's a

sex bot an adult is fucking it and it's

a child uh

it looks like a child or whatever

there's nothing wrong with it because

it's just a bot it's just a robot it's

just a toy right

yeah this is well so

yeah in that situation also he never

made an assumption that it is going to

be public so you can't like assume that

yes there is listen unless he wants okay

the burden of proof would have been on

him to clarify that it shouldn't be

public because

if he didn't want it to why would he

assume it's not going to be public why

are you assuming it is going to be

public because point blank

he said there's nothing wrong with it

and the reasoning he gave wasn't because

it's therapeutic or because maybe it's

reduced maybe i disagree with the

reasoning

is that it's just a toy

the reasoning

is that it's just a toy you may be

researching uh medical stuff logic is

not your strong suit he said it's just a

toy he didn't say it's because it's

fantastic otherwise he would have

qualified why there's nothing wrong with

it

are toys inherently therapeutic unless

is that what you mean that we should

assume toys are inherently therapeutic i

think the contrary is true i think the

contrary is true toys when most people

talk about toys they're talking about

something that you just get publicly you

don't get it from a doctor to be for

play for pleasure

okay so in that case i disagree with

vasha's that part of oh oh oh

so

we have to go through all of them

we have to go okay

so you never know because you failed it

was public because you failed

you're saying oh now i can't no way out

of this one okay i can see listen from a

common sense perspective you know what

you fucking said you know what you

fucking meant i just caught you with

your tail between your fucking legs and

you walked in

you're a fucking wow

not only are you a creep not only are

you a pedophile apologist you're a

fucking coward

fucking coward yep that's me yeah you

are a fucking car why don't you have a

seat

why don't you have a seat right over

there have a seat

okay

have a seat right over there once you

have a seat

this is boston's community by the way

ladies and gentlemen this is the people

that are making these reddits about me

this is them

caught in 4k out in the open this is who

they are

can you can you listen

to whatever can you listen after you

walked it back like a fucking coward you

know what you originally said you know

what you meant you know what you said

that you agree with vosh you know

exactly what was fucking implied nowhere

were anyone talking about therapy

nowhere could you justify

selling this idea to us that oh i

thought it was implied it was going to

be for therapy i thought it was implied

it was going to be for therapy i thought

it was implied that it was going to be

in a vacuum i thought it was implied no

you fucking didn't there's no indication

anywhere on fucking planet earth

anywhere under the fucking night sky

anywhere under tengri's blue sky that

fucking there was that fucking

implication you agreed with vosh point

blank and period and you walked it back

after i broke down why you're a fucking

hypocrite after giving you the example

of a steam game

simple as that

um

so

um

so what i was saying in the very

beginning

was that i think

it's

wait are you shaking

okay all right

so um what i was saying

in the

uh

i i didn't assume it was going to be

like a public thing because vasha's

statement never said i want this to be

like a public application let's see okay

so you you thought it was going to be on

mars because he didn't

specify it was going to be on earth i

didn't think it was because it was going

to be on mars wait but he didn't specify

it wasn't going to be on mars so we

should just roll with the assumption

that's what you thought right okay but

these we should just believe you right

if i say oh i thought

it was going to be on mars

this is if you say this thing is okay

i'm going and then i say yeah this thing

is okay in this scenario

under what conditions not just agree

with it when it's not being qualified

well if you oh okay look if you want to

uh you could you're a liar you didn't

agree with walsh's original taste well

as long as there's no children involved

it's okay then you kept adding

qualifiers because they kept cornering

you and showing and exposing the pedal

nature of vosh's community

um

okay um

i don't why y'all

yeah

yeah keep dancing keep having fun keep

having your fucking fun i'm having fun

yeah keep having your fucking fun

keep having your fucking fun right

by the way you have solidarity with

those workers at netflix

wait am i outside right there no do you

have solidarity with them

do i have solidarity with them i mean if

they want to protest they can

well they're all going to get fired

um

that sucks

too bad they're all gonna get fired

what does this have to do with anything

yeah

how how much longer do you think the

american people are gonna take their

intelligence of being comprised a bunch

of fucking pedophiles

how long before we start passing laws

putting people in prison for advocating

for the things you involved do

um i would hope never because we have no

it's gonna happen it's gonna happen

do you not believe in the freedom of

speech fuck no not when it comes to pedo

shit no

i don't believe in free speech in that

case no

no i don't

it really is the red fascism

it's the uh

anyone who's not a pedophile they call a

fascist nowadays

okay so i don't i don't care your insult

bounces off me

like bullets bounce off superman

yeah

you've called me a pedophile this entire

pedophile supporter pedophile apologist

pedophile adjacent and vos is a fucking

creep who's in all

we have everything but the proof that

he's one himself everything but that

all arrows

indicate one direction all arrows point

in one direction

all arrows point to the right

we have everything but absolutely

we have everything but absolute proof

is this

is this where you do you just like

scream at people and then like

um

i don't know dude

how long is that destiny reenactment

gonna help you cope

for how long you're gonna keep coping

pretending to be destiny what's the one

name

where it has the the one guy with like

the

um the crying thing behind a mask and it

says you're cooping you're coping

fuck out of my fucking vc

biggest fucking copy i'm ever seen in my

fucking