Haz vs Pogan | InfraredShow Debate

what up [ __ ]

hey how's it going hey how's it going

so pogan let me ask you a question

yeah destiny's right

huh

what about the uh

the [ __ ] thing the you at the gas

station or whatever yeah he's right i it

what what exactly did it prove go ahead

oh i don't know it seemed pretty obvious

the goal was just to get you upset i

don't know oh but i thought i was a

[ __ ] and i wasn't gonna show up what

happened

i don't think i ever said you were a

[ __ ] and you weren't gonna show up okay

let's see exactly what you said and

we're gonna go off of that

sure

hogan wait wait just to clarify is this

what you wanted to talk no we're gonna

talk about everything don't worry

okay

you said this is not looking good for

ak-47 what exactly is not looking good

oh i don't know uh

why is your voice trembling two things

were circled then

you seemed

pretty upset i was the gist

you seem currently upset so is that the

extent of your ability to analyze things

beyond this like is this your view of

politics and huge like do you hold your

understanding of politics and history

and theory to the same criteria to which

you claim i'm not looking good as a

result of this picture

oh i'd certainly hope not there wasn't

much analysis here it's like very

obvious this was a statement you made

right

yeah that's correct yeah

so this is a claim you made right

what was the claim

the claim was that it's not looking good

for me

well i mean you don't really need a lot

of help doing that one

why isn't this looking good for me what

does this thing what is destiny saying

here that depends do you want to start

at the beginning or do you want to just

talk about this particular thing

this is what it's about it's not looking

good for me because of these green

circles what about them let me just get

a

a little piece of gum here my breath

smells like [ __ ] it's been a while since

work

two seconds

alrighty um so your question is what's

not looking good for you about the

picture where the things are circled is

that correct yeah correct

um

you're responding to a troll

what but that's not what that's not what

that picture was referring to the

picture was referring to the circles

that there's nothing

you're confused i don't give a [ __ ] what

the picture's referring to you're being

i'm confused wait wait so now you're

gonna backtrack well that's actually not

what you said

in the replies

is it

well i mean it is the same picture so it

proves no it's not like minimum that no

no no yeah what i mean is the car

see the car at the over the gas so now

now you're backpedaling now it's not

about being baited by a troll

now it's about the car

those two things are compatible haas

okay so what is significant about these

cars this same car being here what does

that imply

what i said that the guy was there

roughly around the same time he at least

went to the spot right if he was there

why did is there a dm that proves he

never left chicago what am i the nsa i

don't [ __ ] know

so it seems like your ability to

interpret facts is at the very least

somewhat flawed

i mean it seems like the primary

intention was to get you upset are you

denying that you're upset wait but

it it how does it prove that he was

there when it's

just as plausible that someone else

could have came and taken these photos

and sent it to him after all he was i

mean he was he was in the dms with

someone who lives in the area who said

they were going to come to film it yeah

yeah let me just let me just clarity

your reason for thinking that i have

poor analytical skills is i quote

tweeted

something from destiny yeah it's like

two things circled which is obviously an

attempt to like rile you up no evidence

you're attributing some kind of

significance to the cars

well yeah

so what significance what is significant

about the cars

that the individual in question was

roughly there around the same time

unless you think he was photoshopping or

like it's a fake picture or something no

wait but hold on that's why you have

poor analytical skills because there is

nothing necessary or even likely about

that conclusion

you're saying he could have just gotten

it off like what google images is no he

could have he was in

if you actually understood the breadth

of evidence here first of all the time

span in which he said he was coming from

chicago why do you take [ __ ] like this

so seriously

because i take very seriously how people

draw conclusions from available evidence

so

you're you're confused there's a

disproportionate like balance of like

giving a [ __ ] here right you're over

here yeah wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait-wait

but this is cons hold on pogan we're

going to be why

okay pogan but this is about my

character and my character is also tied

right the token let me explain this to

you logically you're like a logic lord

right so the reason why

the reason why you are willing to um

attack my character is because of my

political views correct so i then get to

draw conclusions about your analytical

skills when it comes to politics and

theory when you [ __ ] [ __ ] up like this

you know the only reason you're

interacting with me in this way on

twitter or interacting with my image and

credibility and character which you

claim to not give a [ __ ] about is

because you disagree with me when it

comes to the meat and potatoes substance

when it comes to theory politics uh and

history and et cetera et cetera right

yes so the way in which you actually

judge my character i get to actually

hold that to the standard of your

politics in theory i actually right

here's here's a surprising statement

right you'll be shocked at this one i

actually think you're unfairly maligned

uh with respect to your character so let

me explain

um i do disagree with you politically

and i think the [ __ ] you advocate for

politically is like really bad it

shouldn't be advocated for yada yada

however

um

i generally take this like um twitter

stuff like the whole

[ __ ] kids bottle and the responses from

him and this like now car thing whatever

like the way you interact with people um

unless you want to give me a reason to

think otherwise i kind of assumed you

were always playing a character

now that's not to say that you don't

have legitimate political views i'm sure

you're like a marxist and you genuinely

advocate for like you know some flavor

of socialism that you cooked up or read

about whatever but i do think you play

this up for like you know views and

subscribers i think that's pretty

transparent okay so

when it comes to issues pertaining to my

character and you're wrong about them

you're willing to say you were wrong

what was i wrong about you were wrong

about the fact that there's anything

significant that you were implying about

the cars being there you're wrong about

the fact that's not true i stated what

was significant about the uh

well yeah what you stated was

significant about them doesn't hold up

it doesn't hold up that the guy took a

picture of the same exact location that

roughness not when you actually analyze

the available evidence pertaining to the

situation he could not physically have

possibly taken those photos

um he admitted when i asked you when i

asked you if you got it off like google

images or something similar you said no

sorry you gotta where to get them

what do you think again

the available breadth of evidence which

would have pointed in the direction

that's wait so i'm not i'm not you right

so my position at best would be like oh

well it seems like there's a reason to

believe right because

just two seconds we're going to be here

all night trust me you'll have plenty of

chances to go ahead i'll point it out

yeah the point is like just going off

that alone you're actually wrong in

saying that it's not evidence it is

evidence for this

yes it is it doesn't reflect the

available breadth of evidence which is

what i said the available breadth of

reason to think it's not evidence

the available breadth of evidence

includes dms in which he talked to

someone who lives in the area who

expressed the intention of coming here

but it doesn't end there the the person

in question who was supposed to show up

the guy who wanted to confront me he

even admitted in those dm's that he had

no intention of leaving chicago

whatsoever and he just wanted to make me

drive there so those are two pieces of

like damning evidence that are available

that are part of the available brand i

don't think he got it off google images

no

hogan you are genuinely a stupid person

do you just hear what i said there's so

many notes there is someone who lives in

the area

who took those photos and sent them to

him but doesn't that just confirm that

the whole point all along was to troll

you then

if you're gonna go with this like

conspiracy theory that destiny reached

out to somebody who he knew okay sure

this was all control me okay then let's

ask this this question why did destiny

then say that this whole thing was faked

to make me look good practically

admitting that it does make me look good

i don't think i saw that one can you

show me that tweet it's right here

sure

uh where are you posting it

it's on stream right now

oh i'm not watching your stream i'm like

in pajamas right now well it's where i

don't care what you're wearing pogen

well i don't have you called the wrong

one

hey let's not let's not you know just

don't jump to conclusions i think you

might care

what if i have like a like a little

infrared red blue purple globe shirt

what about that okay bogan i think you

uh

you got the wrong hotline that you're

calling right now because you're about

to be in a debate i thought you were a

chad alpha male

1 hogan let's not uh pivot away from the

substance of the what's under contention

okay go ahead please proceed you were

wrong

about

the way in which

you responded to claims about my

character

uh

i don't agree with you

well how can you not agree with me when

you just said that this thing destiny

posted proves that the guy

had to have been here

i think that's still a possibility

how is that a possibility when he

admitted in his dm's with someone else

that he had no intention of coming

whatsoever

uh i can only conclude it's a cia state

department fraudulent so you lost

conspiracy excellent now pogan the

reason i think why do you think other

people

yeah the reason i undergo these

exercises with you is because i want to

give the chat a warm up

about your ability to debate overall

when it comes to more serious topics

that's true i i have yeah uh black mold

brand so we can express that if i

actually corner you when it comes to a

serious topic you're going to respond in

a similar way right

i don't know

that has that is what i'm about to

demonstrate now there's one more thing i

want to get to really quickly before we

talk about uh the substance of can i can

i make one quick comment no you don't

mind

so here's what i'm going to ask you

hogan

i distinctly recall

that while i was suspended from twitch

for 30 days uh you weren't a twitch

streamer you were a youtuber right you

made youtube videos that's not an excuse

i actually challenged you to a debate

multiple times and how did you respond

to those challenges

uh are you referring to the combo we had

in dms

yeah what changed

uh i didn't get a clear position from

you that's my recollection well nothing

changed so why are you coming here now

people ask me to be here and i'm bored

ah so you weren't bored back then

i mean

i would hope that at least something to

get from this would be entertainment

value that's secured ah so hogan pogen

uh it doesn't have anything to do with

the fact that back then i was a 200 andy

and now i'm a 1k andy is that anything

to do with it i don't even know what

andy means it means that's my average

viewers

congratulations how's it been uh going

for you

hogan it kind of sounds like my slogan

pogen is a [ __ ] hogan is a [ __ ] has

been even further confirmed you came

crawling

on my [ __ ] feet while i'm sitting on

a throne of gold when i invited you

while i was [ __ ] uh sitting on a

throne in a tent

now you're [ __ ] here groveling before

me you want to debate me now and nothing

changed what changed logan

actually technically your fans just said

uh

my fans have always pestered you to

debate me

well listen listen to the statement

they said come vc

i'm here to vc they've always said that

okay so you are not here to debate

you're not here to debate okay well give

me a proposition if you'd like to debate

hus

what prop is what do you want to debate

about

it's up to you go ahead

i mean my videos are public so are yours

pick a position go forward okay i'll

give you a proposition but i will not

afford you the ability to make

assumptions about this proposition ready

can you explain what that means i'm not

really it means this it means when i

make this proposition you can't make

assumptions about what it means

if you can ask clarifying questions

about its implications but you can't

draw the conclusion that it's it's

loaded with all these other conclusions

ready

so let's begin yeah go for it

you are wrong

about the details surrounding russia's

invasion of ukraine

okay and

well actually you made a video saying

that i lied uh about the situation what

did i lie about

the representation of ukraine as

staunchly neo-nazi sympathetic and

somehow

beholden to like ultra-ukrainian

nationalism in the way that you were

describing in addition to forwarding the

idea that um there's some reason de

facto to believe that ukraine is in

possession of bioweapons facilities

merely based on the statements made by

russian scientists beautiful so there's

it's actually two-pronged

so the first prong

refers to the

over-representation of neo-nazis in the

ukrainian government and in the

ukrainian state as well as the

overwhelming prevalence of ukrainian

ultra-nationalism in defining the state

of ukraine right

and the second thing is about the as

victoria nuland call them research

facilities within ukraine so can i ask

real quick can i ask a clarifying

question sure um when you

when you say

like ukraine is neo-nazi blah blah blah

blah

um i take it you're referring to

something further than azov

um yes what's your take on

and you don't like this is we'll get

into the meat and potatoes here as you

like to say in a second what's your take

on things like uh wagner group and

russian government neo-nazis wagner

group

is not tied to the russian government in

any official capacity it's not given any

official sanction whatsoever wait that's

i well of course i agree but the point

is that it's not tied to the government

officially right because it provides

plausible deniability for wagner group

operations on the behalf of the kremlin

all right do you have any evidence of

these operations being on behalf of the

kremlin

depend well let's cl do you when you say

on behalf do you mean the operations are

conducted in tandem with russian

military forces to achieve russian

strategic objectives i'm asking you for

evidence that the russian government is

ordering the wagner group to do things

to fulfill its own aims

seems like that would be conducive to

i'm sorry consistent with plausible

deniability oh so you have no proof

well i mean you don't have any proof

about the neo-nazis wagner is a private

military company what is azov

uh it's a member it's a component of the

ukrainian national guard

right

and

and your claim is that because azov is a

component not just because of azov well

i

i grasp that right but i'm saying like

you're so let me just be come on let me

just just chill out man the relevance of

pointing out that azov is a component of

the ukrainian national guard presumably

right correct me if i'm wrong here is to

point out that because it's uh directly

reporting to the ukrainian government at

least in some capacity that's reason to

make what conclusion that ukraine's

government is neo-nazi sympathetic

overall

that they're almost tolerant of

neo-nazis

that's the minimal conclusion if we

discount the host of other facts

such as the fact that the azov battalion

is extremely over represented when it

comes to the military operations that

are undergone in eastern ukraine when it

comes to the fact that ukrainian

officials claim that azov was the quote

the best of ukraine's fighters

uh when you take into account finally

the fact that the azov battalion is not

even the only ultranationalist neo-nazi

battalion within ukraine you also have

the adar battalion you have a picture of

the ukrainian armed forces that

overwhelmingly shows um neo-nazi

sympathetic elements being extremely

over-represented

right okay so do you further believe

that that's reason to invade the country

of ukraine

uh that is not well you just shifted the

goalposts we're talking about whether

neo-nazis have overwhelming

over-representation in the ukrainian

state how did i shift the goal posts

without making a claim because the

question of the the question of the

justification for russia's invasion

would have to

lead to more prongs

right i just i just asked two questions

the first was do you think what like

what's the relevance of azov with

respect to their ukrainian government

now with question one question two was

what do you think

uh is the relevance of that in terms of

justifying russian military operations

there's an overall context that needs to

be clarified before we can uh explore

that question

just give me let me open like a notepad

document here one second

just to just to clarify um would you be

willing to state like right now for my

benefit you believe the russian invasion

is justified correct yes but okay cool

um and a component of that justification

is their objective to denautify the

country is that right yes

okay

um and you think as of in addition to

some other things you'll mention under

there in a second

is a reason to think that

the

i i doubt you would say like the

majority of the ukrainian population is

nazi sympathetic right

no

okay cool so it's just the government

then uh i would call it the deep state

what does that mean so there's two

levels of every modern government in the

world except with actually a few

exceptions uh china and russia actually

being among them

where you have the official state with

like its official parties and parliament

representation and then you have like

the military and the intelligence

operatives and oligarchs and also thug

militias that are receiving orders from

these elements basically like people who

pull the strings in a non-official

capacity

okay

so you so you generally think

denotification is one of a set of

reasons that another country can invade

another country

yeah um no not in a vacuum not as some

kind of abstract precept are you knowing

a cumulative case

denotification is part of the wider

context of the geographic and historical

realities of ukraine and russia

but it's just the government i thought

because you remember when i said is the

population generally nazi sympathetic

you weren't you said you weren't willing

to make what's the relevance of the

population not being overwhelmingly nazi

sympathetic the fact that a whole

[ __ ] ton of them are getting killed

right now by russian military forces

how many exactly i'm sure it's in the

thousands you want an exact number

you're not like i actually feel like

there's are you doubting civilians have

died i don't know i'm not hold on i'm

not denying there's been um collateral

damage right so what does the number

matter

the number matters the number matters

because

the number matters because

if russia is waging like a systematic

effort to target civilians and engage in

a genocide or something like that then

yes your argument would be no no i

didn't explain they were genociding

ukrainians i made the claim that if it's

the case that you think at least one

component of the justification for the

invasion is denotification

right

then you'd have to further say something

like well that's going to either alone

or as part of a cumulative case justify

the civilian casualties inflicted as a

consequence of this invasion right i

don't know the exact number i'm pretty

sure it's in the thousands if you

[ __ ] really want it i'll find it

although those are going to be western

sources though you'll probably just i

don't scream about it so it is your

point is not relevant you the ukrainian

neo-nazi population does not have to be

neo-nazi sympathetic in order for

collateral damage of civilians well i

don't really accept that the government

is neo-nazi sympathetic but the point

i'm making is if the objective is to

denouncify ukraine i thought part of

that objective means demilitarizing

ukraine

uh and defeating the azov battalion and

the in these elements

slow down slow down we're getting ahead

of ourselves now it's demilitarizing

ukraine

we were talking about denotification

well they're hand in hand because the

nazis in question are overwhelmingly

represented within the military

okay it is the view of the russian

government as a matter of fact that the

military is in control of ukraine and

not even the president zelinski i don't

doubt that

i don't doubt that there are elements of

the ukrainian armed forces that are

neo-nazi right even beyond

pretty much every standing military in

the world especially western ones yeah

but ukraine has a disproportionate uh

and

over-representation of neo-nazis

relative to almost any military anywhere

else in the world

are you saying that the majority of the

ukrainian military is nazi sympathetic

the majority mean conscripts

or the military establishment i'm just

trying to get cl this is the same

problem we had in dms like a year ago

right i'm trying to get clarity on what

exactly it is you're claiming and it

seems like you're very careful not to

say just exactly what you mean

what i'm hearing is this you can correct

me if i'm mistaken here right

you think

that

the ukrainian armed forces

are somehow kind of like innately or

at this

point i would call them not so fight

okay as like a co as like an institution

collectively yeah the people the upper

echelons that run that institution yes

they're not suffied is the source for

that claim primarily russian reporting

um it has to do with the

over-representation of neo-nazis in the

ukrainian armed forces military

operations that's not the question i

asked you the question i asked you i

answered your question and some no it's

not simply because of russian sources i

don't know what the source has what are

the other sources

um i don't think it's contested that 10

to 15 000

of the total of the ukrainian national

guard

are part of battalions that are ultra

nationalist neo-nazis

but your claim is that the ukrainian

armed forces simplified

yeah how many how many how many units

total are in the ukrainian armed forces

do you know i know that there's 50 000

in the national guard so so even by

presumably the sources that you're

referring to which i'll take your word

they're not just russia but at least

some of it's going to be russia right

even by that standard

less than what like let's do some quick

math right

uh it's been a while since i've done

yeah but before you do the math just to

be clear

it's not relevant because i've never

claimed that the majority of concepts

roughly right 30 so let me just explain

to you basic logic the majority of

conscripts within the ukrainian armed

forces are not that's if that's that

hold on don't interrupt me the majority

of constructs

are not neo-nazis what reflects an armed

forces in its actual character has to do

with the intentions that are directed at

the level of leadership that define it

as an institution conscripts are just

ordinary people okay and even even

even no we're not getting off hold on

we're not getting off track

because it is not a neces it is not true

that there has to be a majority of

conscripts that are neo-nazis in order

for the armed forces to be claimed to be

something that's not suffied i didn't

say it was dependent on the majority of

the so why are you pointing out that

there is

and this is only this is a really

waiting only because 30 is still a [ __ ]

ton

well that's again yeah i agree but

that's assuming the sources that you

haven't provided to me are legitimate

but we'll just grant that they are

because i like to be charitable okay

according to a bbc documentary

c14 runs the ministry of defense

are you done

we'll say what you want to say

yeah so let's assume that the sources

you're using for this 30

uh ukaf claim

are legitimate um and i'd like to just

say on like one topic here instead of

jumping all over the place

you are saying that the government of

ukraine

zielenski as their president

is beholden to this military and

therefore the russian campaign of

denotification

is justified now that's going to depend

on a number of things being

substantiated

the first thing it's going to depend on

uh substantiation for is that the

number's that high i haven't heard a

source for that yet the second thing

it's going to depend just

real quick the second thing it's going

to depend on is

a reason to think the government in the

way that you're describing is actually

beholden to these ultra-nationalist

elements in the ukrainian military right

which is which itself is a claim that

requires evidence

so

if you can show me both of those things

if you can show me the numbers are

accurate um the evidence like checks out

there's no problems with methodology

there's no like very obvious like

implicit bias in the reporting and then

you can also show that there's reason to

think zelensky's administration is

really just um subservient to like

uh what'd you call it the

ukrainian generals right the the highest

echelons of the military

um that'd be cool

so what exactly are you asking for

i just stated clearly what i was asking

for you there was nothing clear about

what you asked whatsoever give me

something precise you want

what do you i that's like insane to say

i asked for evidence evidence claims

that you made

i just told you the first thing about

the ukrainian

that's a deliberately unnuanced take

ukrainian state is nazified is that a

question you're looking for

oh

sorry i just stated the two things that

i'm looking for evidence for you want

evidence that the 30 percent claim holds

yeah i want evidence that the number of

people who you described as nazi

sympathetic like that's inaccurate it's

not the number of nazi-sympathetic

people it's the number of battalions

that are in their official as

organizations

are ultra nationalists and or neo-nazis

okay

yeah so do you have a source for that

one and then we'll tackle the second one

afterwards sure someone get the source

and put it in fact checking

wait you don't have the source on hand i

don't have it on hand

okay

someone go ahead and put it in fact

checking put the combined battalions

which comprise ten to fifteen

this uh based underscore superstructure

gentleman posted something from the gray

zone

is that the

is that the one

that you remember

i don't think it's here

okay all right

all right well i mean like

hopefully you can understand the point

that i'm making because you know i'm i

like to pride myself as a relatively

anti-nazi person and you know when this

war first happened and everybody by the

way it's being the gray zone is not

going to be relevant

uh considering the fact that you have to

question where those primary sources are

coming from it doesn't matter like

yes the razor has an agenda to present

primary sources

in this way

but the primary source would still stand

i don't actually want you to be angry

like all i did was chuckle i didn't say

it was like [ __ ] or anything on its

face i just did a little laugh you know

someone go ahead and post not

everything's like the end of the world

you know post the combined numbers of

all those battalions all you really have

to do is tally them up

like all you literally have to do is

take all like you have to do two things

i have to prove to you these battalions

are neo-nazis or nationalists and then i

have to prove to you that the numbers of

the people who constitute those

battalions are

accurate

uh sorry i kind of zoned out at the

second part but the first part yeah

correct yeah

okay how would i be able to do that for

you

i mean you well for the first thing with

the numbers you specifically cited that

you had evidence you further said it was

actually no i'm talking about proving

that they are neo-nazis in the first

place

you want the numbers first

you made the claim they were neo-nazis

yeah

right so that's on that's your burden

right you would have okay

okay so is the azov battalion neo-nazi

yes yeah okay is the idarb italian

neo-nazi

uh i don't know what that is show me

something about it

okay where do you go

you can dm me i don't think you have me

blocked or anything i hope that i can

only dm friends

do you want to be my friend haas

absolutely not

okay

all right fine just put it in like

uh fact checking or whatever i don't

care all right so this is the idarb

battalion you can just look at the

wikipedia and it's in fact checking

the eidar battalion is right here in

wikipedia

sure

and we'll work just to clarify we're

working our way up very gradually to 30

right that's the number that you cited

is that correct that's what you said i

said 10 to 15 000 of ukraine's national

guard

out of 50 000 standing military units in

the national guard

right which would be 30 percent right

and compared to the ukrainian armed

forces at large

uh depending on whether or not you want

to combine standing and reserved

personnel that's up to you but we'll

just go with standing to be charitable

ukraine has 200 000 active military

personnel

200 000 active okay so that would be

0.075 percent of the uk oh sorry i

didn't multiply by 100 don't believe me

on that one 7.5 percent of the military

no this is also something destiny did

why do you think that the conscripts

are what's going to define

instant what defines an institution's

ideological orientation

i didn't say it did i'm saying there's

not even material or relevant to an

institution's ideological orientation

uh of the number of conscripts

you kind of you kind of just [ __ ]

yourself because if it's not relevant to

the like ideology of the institution you

wouldn't be fighting it you are using it

as evidence

but you're the one who asked for the

conscripts in the first place i never

attributed to them significance

that's that's

the 30 percent think hogan you wanted

that i

it doesn't even i clarified to you

even before we talked about it that it

was like it doesn't even matter because

that's not what defines an institution

like that was very early on in our

argument about it you want proof of that

it's the 30 or whatever

um

whoever listed them list all the

battalions again and we'll just tally up

their total members yeah so the problem

is if you thought it it doesn't really

matter if i asked or not because you

saying in response to that question

because i remember i asked you

originally no it wasn't in response then

hold on hold on hold on all you didn't

correct me in a second

when i asked you like hey haas you know

good bud if you think they're like

neo-nazis and denotification is one of

the many acceptable justifications for

russian military operations right what

what do you you know what you're gonna

point to azov right i said kind of

mockingly and you said oh well there's

more battalions than just azov you know

there's 15 000 [ __ ] total standing

neo-nazi pieces of [ __ ] and i said okay

cool so let's get the evidence for that

right that's how the conversation went

down and i'm just pointing out to you

now wait hold on i promise okay hold on

then you said

after i said that you said

that that's not a majority and then i

said it doesn't matter if it's not a

majority if it's only 10 to 15 000

um because and then i made the argument

in question okay so now you're shifting

the goal post and you're saying okay i

want the evidence actually of the amount

right are you conceding that the number

well actually we can take a step back on

that one

are you now saying that the presence of

neo-nazis in the ukrainian military is

not germane to whether or not the

ukrainian military is neo-nazi at its

core like has a fundamental neo-nazi

ideology or whatever that's what i mean

hogan just a question

what are you a [ __ ] idiot

on tuesdays maybe it's today tuesday so

look at what you just said the presence

of neo-nazis

what does what constitutes that presence

are we talking about in the leadership

are we talking at an institutional level

or are we talking about conscripts

because i'm not saying

that the evidence your claim was that

the government was neo-nazi the state

yes yeah yeah yeah so why'd you so why

even mention the conscripts at all why

give me a number i don't know i don't

know why we're talking you're just

confused

you just randomly threw a number you are

the one who wanted to talk about the

conscripts i did mention the several

other battalions whose combined total is

30 30

number of conscripts of the ukrainian uh

armed forces are the conscripts evidence

for the neo the government being

neo-nazi no but the battalions are

that's what i'm trying to tell you it's

not about the conscripts it's about the

battalions right okay and the number of

total

the number of conscripts

that are under the battalions relative

to the ukrainian armed forces is what's

significant not the conscripts

themselves how many okay so you're

saying the battalions are the evidence

for the government being no nazis so how

many

how many soldiers total are in these

specifically neo-nazi battalions like

all together

fifteen

so the exact thing we just went over for

the last 30 minutes is relevant then

despite what you're saying

right because then that is

hold on the denip euro okay finally we

got it dinipra battalion idar azov

guniper one the nipper two and don bass

volunteer militials

uh a battalion is that's okay so the

minimum

is seven thousand

uh

and the military analysts claimed that

azov has gone to a brigade of three

thousand so there's at least ten

thousand we actually know it's at least

ten thousand we know of

i'm gonna talk about

second fact-checking

sure cool out of a standing active duty

military of like two hundred we're

talking about the ukrainian national

guard right now

okay how many have been conducting the

majority of the operations

uh if not all the operations but we just

wait wait wait wait wait just just two

seconds we just went over both the

military

itself right the 200k figure as well as

what i thought you gave as the

total national guard

standing personnel which was 50k is that

correct

what's your point

the numbers that i've been providing you

for the last 20 minutes are still

completely relevant

that it's only 7.5

the 7.5 is the ukrainian armed forces

collectively it was 30 if you want to

just look at the national yeah so that's

what is significant hello yeah what is

significance about nearly

yeah what

sorry i just had to knock on your door

um yeah it's 30 just with the national

guard that was the point

okay what is your point what's the point

of that i guess what is your point

that's still a lot you started throwing

these numbers at me presumably as a way

to further the claim that

well ukraine quote-unquote was a

neo-nazi country which by by which you

really meant the government is neo-nazi

like have a neo-nazi idea when did i say

ukraine is a neo-nazi country

i mean that's that i said the ukrainian

state and more specifically the deep

state is nazified

right and you gave those battalions as

evidence by your own admission right uh

as one of the pieces of evidence for

that sure

okay so just let's just get down to the

nitty-gritty

one of the pieces of evidence you have

for the ukrainian government

being nazi

is the fact that 30 percent of the

national guard aka 7.5 percent of the

total you uh sorry ukrainian armed

forces standing personnel

is

nazi uh sympathetic or holds nazi

ideology according to sources that i

have not been provided including

presumably the russian government's own

report so what are what are we arguing

about the sources or granting that this

is just true

because if i provide you the sources i'm

sure you have an argument lined up right

okay so this is this is a source source

for the list of battalions

funded by kolominski who's one of the

ukrainian oligarchs wait but this is the

same gray zone article you said earlier

wasn't yours it's literally wikipedia

oh you're not you so you're not talking

about the thing that based

superstructure guy dude posted it's

literally something warlock just listed

on wikipedia

chris morlock

if you want to fall into question the

primary source is utilized by that

greatest article you're more than

welcome to i don't know why you're

jumping on me for for things that aren't

coming out of my mouth i didn't say

anything about like gray zone's primary

sources what i said is

look i'll just restate the problem okay

okay you are saying you are saying look

at both of them

i will in a second you are saying that

the ukrainian government

is a nazi government one of the pieces

of evidence for this claim is the

presence of neo-nazis you want to grant

me the fact and then make your argument

then

i mean i would have to look i know azov

is neo-nazi i'd have to look at the

other battalions okay so are you gonna

grant change of facts

okay

but then make your own i can grant it

for the sake of argument but even if i

grant it right

just inductively right because of how

like probabilistic evidence works how

induction works

saying that it's it's going to be strong

evidence that the the government is nazi

based on

the presence of neo-nazis and 30 percent

of the guard and 7.5 of the ukrainian

armed forces together

on its face is just weak evidence even

if you grant that the evidence is met

okay that's what i wanted to get to so

the reason that's not true is because

that assumes that there's an equal

proportion of relevance in the ukrainian

armed forces and turning in terms of

defining the power of the institution

and the exercise of power thereof

but as it happens he said again that was

confusing

that assumes there is an

equal that assumes that the like every

single there's an equal level of

significance as far as like the number

of battalions and conscripts are

concerned in terms of how heavily they

weigh in defining the institution of the

ukrainian army i don't know why i don't

know why we're talking you said the

conscripts aren't what's important

what's important

look just focus on that seven point five

percent right uh-huh yeah

that assumes let's just do it in terms

of percentages then right so let's make

it clear i know you're a stupid person

so we're just going to make this clear

that is something that's nice

okay so that is there's 7.5 and then

there's 92.5 percent right

well in order for this and ever in order

for the 7.5 to not be strong evidence

every percentage of the total has to

have equal representation and

significance

in terms of defining

the institution of the ukrainian forces

for example for example

this is this is a complete tangent right

no offense look the point is 7.5 percent

of the ukrainian armed forces being nazi

sympathetic

right you're trying to

why isn't that evidence

i'm explaining what you're missing is

the connective tissue here you need to

connect that to the idea that

the ukrainian government actually more

specifically the ukrainian deep state

still i don't even really i've been

trying to do that but you cut me off

okay fair enough so what's the

connective tissue there the connective

tissue is the fact that that's 7.5

percent has over representation in

defining the institution of the

ukrainian armed forces and in terms of

as measured by its activities

so

now the claim is that the 7.5 percent is

in fact

i guess dictating the ideology for the

remaining 92.5 percent implicitly

more if we measure it based on the

activity of the armed forces yes

they are the vanguard

they are to quote one of the the

president of ukraine at the time um

poroshenko

the best of ukraine's fighters and he

was referencing the azov the other

battalions have also behind azov been at

the vanguard of operations in eastern

ukraine which has defined the majority

of the war that had been going on for

eight years against the so-called

separatists in eastern ukraine i think

you might actually be committing

i forget which one it is it's either the

composition fallacy or the opposite one

i forgot the name for it

but you're trying to sure you're trying

to extrapolate

without real evidence because you're

just i guess we're just talking about

like

implications now you're trying to

extrapolate 7.5 percent of the ukrainian

armed forces

being

i guess explicitly a neo-nazi itself

requiring evidence that we still need to

look at into

the remainder of the ukrainian armed

forces and by extension the ukrainian

government and the quote unquote deep

state

is nazi sympathetic as a consequence of

that

no hogan the problem is that you're just

not a smart person

i i understand we don't know let's just

have a blank slate right tabula

we don't know first of all how

significant that seven point five

percent is i am not saying they are

significant ex nicolo

you and i right now arguing we don't

know right then why then that if you

don't know what the importance of that

is it makes it no i do know but not

within the context of the initial

argument

so there's two arguments being so this

isn't evidence for your argument then

hogan 7.5

nothing has nothing was clarified i

should say that's what i mean to say

nothing was said or clarified that's

what i mean we don't know we the

audience and you nothing was clarified

as to the question of how significant

they are now if every percentage of that

100 total is equally

proportionate

um then you would be right 7.5 is not

strong evidence what do you mean by

proportionate

it seems like when you're saying

proportionate what you're meaning is

just the influence they have on the

collective ideology

yeah they're proportional

the disproportionate influence they okay

well that's that's that by its very

nature unless you have evidence which i

would love to see okay i have evidence

like that battalion no no no no listen

listen to the thing before you you

assume what i'm going to say

you're saying that that 7.5 percent has

a disproportionate effect on the overall

ideology

why am i saying that but why are you

saying that you appeal to the i

understand you appeal to the quote you

referenced earlier no i'm not i'm

appealing to evidence that has not been

even brought up yet just keeps [ __ ]

interrupting me i'm referring to the

fact

that the azov battalion almost

single-handedly recaptured cities like

mariopol throughout the duration of the

civil war you don't know how significant

these battalions are and that's

literally what i'm trying to tell you

you just don't know how significant they

are you're assuming they're just as

significant as every other sector of the

ukrainian armed forces

what they're not the facts show that

they're not

no i didn't make that assumption i just

gave you that okay so why are you saying

7.5 is not strong evidence when you

don't know whether it would be strong

evidence or not it would be strong

evidence

it is strong evidence if seven point if

that 7.5 was at the vanguard of the

their operations then it would be good

evidence

i don't know what you mean by vanguard

they were literally at the vanguard of

operations in eastern ukraine for eight

years well that's just repeating your

statement what i'm saying is you're

trying to make like some implicit claim

here that they have like a

disproportionate influence on the

ideology and belief system of the rest

of the military

and i'm just saying

not only has no reason been provided for

that other than the quote that you

referenced i guess even like like it

still doesn't show me that

all i would have to demonstrate do you

mind if i finish my salmon please go

ahead finish it it doesn't it doesn't

actually demonstrate that there's any

further reason to believe that the

initial claim

which is uh that the ukrainian deep

state government is nazi sympathetic

has been raised in probability to be

true right you're trying to make an

inductive case and i just don't see the

induction really panning out it's not

cogent i i did pogan because

i literally did

what do you mean i did

i didn't hear it

yeah

only yeah it's like it's like only nine

percent of german nazis were were

committed actively involved in the

holocaust

so what does that mean nazism but like

does that mean like it's not strong

evidence i'm seeing the problem the

relationship between nazism and the

holocaust the reason that's dis

analogous is because

pretty much every member of the uh

german armed forces the vermont the

waffen ss et cetera right the schwaffel

themselves pretty much every element of

them as a mere condition of being sworn

into the nazi party and then whatever

military detachment they were sworn into

had to directly swear loyalty to adolf

hitler a guy who has explicitly said

multiple times beginning in like the

late twenties that he [ __ ] hates

jewish people right

that's a complete

jewish disadvantage does not actually

mean

that they were directly complicit in the

holocaust

no you're not understanding the point

the point is merely by me being like a

card-carrying nazi party member

right you're swearing your loyalty to

the guy making these statements publicly

and being very very [ __ ] open and

transparent about it you you don't even

understand the analogy i'm not even

stating it as an analogy

you don't no no hogan you don't

understand the analogy because i'm not

calm down calm down it's okay we're okay

the point is it's completely

disanalogous because i'm gonna let you

finish what you were saying just to

[ __ ] prove to you you're wasting my

time so go ahead and finish your stupid

[ __ ] sentence bogan i'm actually a

big fan of the game thing that was cool

finish it finish it finish it shut

finish it so you can shut your pig mouth

go ahead

yeah so the point is there's unless you

have some secret tape recording of

zilenski saying like

bro

nazis are dope and [ __ ] my man uh

there's no reason to think that people

one by being in the ukrainian armed

forces subscribe to any sort of ideology

like that's implicit or two

that um because azov and of these other

battalions are referencing are

supposedly as you claim

disproportionately influential in the

ideology that by extension

a majority or even a significant

component of the ukrainian armed forces

subscribe to anything resembling a nazi

ideology

that's what we're missing we need some

code you're gonna shut the [ __ ] up no

i'm youtube because this has gone on too

long logan my analogy was not about i'm

gonna i'm gonna mute him i gotta mute

this dumb [ __ ] you're gonna shut up

you're gonna shut your pick my pig mouth

oink

i wasn't trying to say

that the situation with the german armed

forces relative to nazi ideology is the

same in the case of ukraine i was saying

only nine

[ __ ] up you're getting muted you're

getting [ __ ] muted there we go now

the pig can shut the [ __ ] up pogen you

have to very very carefully listen to me

like very slowly i know you're a stupid

[ __ ] your brain can't handle this so

listen very slowly trust me you're gonna

feel really stupid after i say it what i

said is that if we assume

nine percent of german nazis were

actively involved in perpetrating the

holocaust

your the analogy is to the 7.5 percent

of the ukrainian armed forces but the

object is completely different one is

about neo-nazi ideology the other one is

about active involvement and culpability

in the holocaust

you made the assumption that what i was

talking about was nazi ideology in

germany these

neo-nazi ideology in ukraine it's not

what i'm talking about i'm talking about

the proportion of a total political

organization

or armed forces

can

uh in terms of percentages

doesn't have to be anywhere near a

majority in order for the institution as

a whole to be defined by them

those nine percent of nazis who

perpetrated the holocaust

defined

almost the entirety of nazism's legacy

as being responsible for the holocaust

despite that it was only nine percent

okay now analogously

not just because of them but analogously

if 7.5

percent of ukraine's armed forces

are neo-nazis

it is possible not necessary because

that requires more um

explanation but it is definitely

possible that that five seven point five

percent can more than easily define the

institution of the ukrainian armed

forces

as having nazi persuasions or as

something that's nazified so that is my

argument very simply now you can respond

to what i actually said instead of

wasting my [ __ ] time

yeah that doesn't follow um the reason

it doesn't follow is because

when you're talking about the 7.5

percent of ukrainian armed forces

um that are like neo-nazi or whatever

right let's grant it for the sake of

argument you're talking about people

that though they may be explicit in

their beliefs and their political

ideology

the further claim that you're making the

one where you're talking about how

they're so influential on the rest of

the military is one that's just sort of

being thrown in there without further

cause or further explanation so i'll

explain why that's not the same as the

uh the verma act or like shutstaffer

case

in the case of the vermont the schwitz

staffel the often ss right

those people not only by being

card-carrying nazi party members

explicitly subscribed to um the ideology

not relative the ideology is perfectly

relevant

the holocaust

not only do they explicitly subscribe to

the ideology of adolf hitler right by

being in the party they actually further

um were divided up into detachments

specifically tasked with carrying out

the objectives of the holocaust um

etc etc so what you're saying is that it

wasn't only nine percent

well i'm saying that well unless you

want to disagree i'm saying that because

those people were card-carrying nazi

party members if they did not renounce

their party membership if they didn't

like actively take a stand against their

orders i think pretty much every german

military member is complicit in the

holocaust to a varying degree okay then

why didn't you just say that you're just

saying that has you were wrong about

nine percent so let me actually um

rewind i did i just used then let's

let's rewind it by saving ourselves time

and using a hypothetical what if only

nine percent of nazis committed the

holocaust and 91 percent had no clue

what was going on would nazism's legacy

still be defined by the holocaust

yeah

why when only nine percent were carrying

it out

uh because every every member of the

nazi military swears allegiance to it

all hitler the guy carrying it out

okay sure so let me explain this to you

analogously okay

in the same way that in this

hypothetical that nine percent is

responsible you're not going to say

zolensky is like like a nazi zelinski

doesn't lead the real ukrainian state

that i'm claiming is not sufficient

well that's important then because i'm

i'm gonna go off wait but pogan

initially i said the ukrainian deep

state i didn't say the official

ukrainian state and zielinski

so let's be clear show me that the

ukrainian military actually runs the

government then please hold on before we

get there that was an initial premise of

this entire engagement which you knew

about so if you want to talk about that

we're going to have to finish this one

first okay because you seem to got

gotten us somewhere without contesting

it that's actually not true

what i conceded to was that the numbers

you threw out regarding the number

my claim is that the ukrainian deep

state and including the armed forces was

nazified now you're talking about

zelensky okay so you you that's not true

when i said do you think the government

is nazi you said yes that's not true

because the real government of ukraine

is not sufficient right so that would

mean if i said government and you really

meant deep state and i meant which i

clarified very early on and you did not

take any time to contest well we could

we can get into that but just to clarify

that doesn't mean like

i'm prima facie saying that i agree with

the premise that there is a deep state

and that it's run by the military just

well but we got this far without you

challenging that premise okay that's

because we spend so now we're going to

get here so so

so pogan it actually doesn't matter who

the real president of ukraine is because

by analogy these neo-nazis these

neo-nazi battalions are a function of

the intentions of the ukrainian state as

an institution in the same way that the

holocaust was a function of the

intentions of the nazi party right

adolf hitler ran the uh the german

government right who what does it matter

who runs the government we've already

explained the relevance

but it doesn't listen let's say okay

let's say kermit the frog was the head

of the nazi party then it doesn't make a

difference as far as their culpability

in the holocaust does it it doesn't

matter who runs

i explained why it did the reason it

does the reason it has relevance yeah

and a further reason for this analogy is

again because

merely by joining the nazi party

right you are agreeing to uh follow the

orders and you swear allegiance to adolf

hitler okay sure so

merely okay so the the by and out you're

familiar with that right you're familiar

with like how nazis when they joined the

party they didn't swear loyalty to like

the constitution of germany it's a party

it's i know what a party is pogo no no

no no no no it's small yeah it's a party

why would a party swear allegiance to

the constitution careful when the party

is not the state you dumbass it's a

party because because the vermont right

when they become

german soldiers german infantry whatever

they don't swear like you know how when

you join the military in america you're

like i swear to protect an upholding

because the werewolf belongs to the

german state

you're not under you're not a state and

a party are not the same thing you dumb

[ __ ]

that you're not listening to me

when you join the u.s military you go i

swear loyalty to the constitution of the

us and blah right when you became a

vermont soldier fairmont infantry you

didn't say [ __ ] anything like that

you said i swear loyalty to goddamn

adolf hitler and that was the point

chancellor of germany hold on almost

done adolf hitler is on stage for years

prior to this saying the jews are the

problem you swear loyalty to the

chancellor of the german state

are you saying that german infantry

soldiers did not swear loyalty directly

to hitler

yes because he was the champion

historically incorrect because he was

the chancellor of the german state you

are historically incorrect what am i

incorrect about they did in fact swear

loyalty i didn't deny that pogen i said

it's because he's the chancellor of the

german state get the [ __ ] out of your

[ __ ] ears and stop wasting our time

you dumb [ __ ] pig so you agree they

swore loyalty to hitler yes who was the

chancellor of the german state

whatever but you agree they swore

because he was the chancellor of the

german state yes and he was an

anti-semite

yeah and you think like germany and yeah

we know he's an anti-semite you don't

have to say things we all know but the

thing is pogen the relevant point is

that in this hypothetical you just

agreed that if only nine percent of the

members of the nazi party

committed the holocaust right and 91

percent did not

that doesn't change the nazi party's

culpability in the holocaust

you're still missing the point the point

the reason why we would think the

culpability thing is different there is

because in the case of the vermont right

you just agreed yeah they do swear

loyalty shut the [ __ ] up about the we're

mocked yeah i have to do like a from

scratch thing because you're just

confused at this point let's let's do

the cookie monster in genesis

we're gonna do the cookie monster

genocide so elmo has an army of 5 000

people or he has a party of 5 000 people

and there's a whole specimen of cookie

monsters right so elmo

has only only two percent of elmo's army

or his party is directly culpable

receiving orders from elmo right

directly culpable in the genocide of

cookie monsters okay that still means

elmo

as in his party as an institution is

responsible for the cookie monster

genocide even if only two percent of

people are perpetrating it yeah because

it expresses the intention of the

institution okay it's that simple

if you establish an analogy between that

and a situation where not only do you

explicitly swear loyalty to i forget was

it elmo or whatever well elmo sure you

explicitly swear loyalty to elmo and

elmo has been spending the last like 10

years really [ __ ] railing on this

particular about

right yeah

yeah

that's not gonna be analogous to the

situation that you're doing but the

thing is hitler did not make the mass

extermination of jews public

well he certainly said that they would

that it was a problem that would have to

be solved right i don't know no one

knows no one knew it that no nobody knew

that was going to be interesting

it's not that everyone knew that that

was going to be extermination

let's use your example right he gets on

stage elmo and says we need to solve we

need to answer the uh what is it the

cookie monster question how many

different [ __ ] things could he

possibly [ __ ] mean um

one of the one of the plans was the

deportation of jewish people to

madagascar which is still bad

right okay sure but it's not relevant it

doesn't matter if it's good or bad it's

not relevant to the point use logic but

it does but see it does why the point

well because

you just agreed that's like a reason

because deportation to madagascar is not

the same thing as extermination camps

that's why it doesn't matter well i

agree with you there just they're both

bad sure but they're not the same thing

just relax for a second the reason it's

this analogous is because you're trying

to make an analogy between that and like

ukraine and these battalions but there

is no similar situation in ukraine

there's nobody in the ukrainian

administration you're talking about okay

okay you could you would have that's the

disanalogy i'm not saying there's a a

holocaust going on in ukraine right now

what i'm trying to say you're very

you're getting very close to implying it

no offense oh my god you are genuinely a

stupid [ __ ] you're just like not smart

you're just not intelligent i'm sorry

you would fail out of law school you

would never even pass the lsat pogen

what i'm trying to say a phd physicist

it doesn't matter you're dumb [ __ ] you

would not you would never be allowed in

law school hogan what we're talking

about is not whether there's directly a

holocaust going on in ukraine we're

talking very abstractly about whether

the numbers of an organization or an

institution can define its intentions if

7.5 percent are neo-nazis what you have

to prove is that their neo-nazi

character is merely incidental and that

the institution is deploying them for

ends that are not themselves defined by

the neo-nazi ideology no no no the point

is you were trying to establish an

analogy between ukraine as it exists

today with all these battalions and nazi

uh no i i i gave up on the nazi thing

because i know you're a dumb stupid [ __ ]

with [ __ ] in your ears so i gave up on

the nazi analogy and i made up my own

elmo cookie monster thing okay so you

agree

analogous right no it is analogous but

you can't understand the analogy so i

tried to simplify the analogy for you

why is my objection to the analogy wrong

because you are making it seem like i am

claiming the analogy is along the lines

of their actions being the same thing

rather than the question i didn't say

that

yes you did you said well there's no

genocide or there's no holocaust going

on in ukraine right now the reason i

cited for this analogy you started with

this analogy because hitler was at

knowingly he was known to be an

anti-semite and everyone in the armed

forces had to swear allegiance to it the

disanalogy is that when they became

vermont or whatever can you can you look

on my stream because i'm gonna just

microsoft paint this for you because

you're a stupid [ __ ] like you need

visual learning so let's just do visual

learning right i'm actually i'm well

probably open the open stream we'll do

visual learning okay i'm on an etch a

sketch i can't there is no

stream do

visual learning okay so we're going to

do this very simply right i just want

you to understand

we're going to do this very simply so

here we have all right we have hitler

um

hitler's open anti-semitism right

hitler's open anti-semitism

all where

ma whatever all

army do you understand

shut up allegiance to him

okay

all army swearing allegiance to him

okay this is how the analogy is

based on each layer okay all army

swearing allegiance to him and then a

proportion

committing

the crime

genocide right

okay so one two and three right let's

label them for you you understand i'm

not looking at this well you can look at

it there's no excuse for you i can't you

literally can i have an etch a sketch

okay someone take a screenshot of it

when i'm done and post it in the discord

so you can see it there's two you have

you have such good fans thank you so one

two and three right then we're gonna do

this we're gonna do this one right

i don't know ukrainian government

ukrainian government

ideology irrelevant

just uh just so i know haas what's your

like what's your bedtime

roughly

no i'm explaining this to you irrelevant

that wasn't my question

it's 11 p.m on the east coast man

irrelevant um

ukrainian armed forces

answering

to state let's just say ukrainian state

so we're less uh

ambiguous entering to state orders

to

a my mom's portion

i proportion

being i'm just telling you now

a significant proportion being neo-nazi

so as you can see we have these labeled

one two and three right so one here is

one

so

a significant proportion being neo-nazi

is analogous to the proportion

committing the holocaust okay and the

reason it's analogous is not because you

get a new haircut the reason the the the

reason they're analogous

pause for a second i got them

sorry go ahead continue please so do you

concede the debate

what no so have you lost yeah are you

unable to comprehend what i'm trying to

say well they just posted it for me so

let me read just uh hitler's open

anti-semitism swearing allegiance uh

[ __ ] proportion committing the crime

ukrainian state ukrainian armed forces

answering to state orders significant

proportion being neo-nazi

wait a second why is the official

ideology of the ukrainian state

irrelevant

um because you cannot extrapolate from

hitler's open anti-semitism uh a

necessary conclusion at least at the

time as far as the soldiers in that army

knew of the extermination if if the

analogy i didn't say i didn't see it

hypothetically

i merely said that he was like

explicitly anti-jew and had expressed

that he wanted

let me explain something to you now it

used to be very common i'm going to

explain something to you i'm going to

explain to you it is it's not going to

sound relevant at first but you're going

to see why it is okay in in old europe

anti-semitism was very common do you

understand though that that shut the

[ __ ] up and let me finish this yeah

i'm just okay

with the pig

oink oink oink oink you're muted okay

anti-semitism used to be very very

prominent in europe the reason

it stopped being as open or prominent as

it used to be is because of the

holocaust which means in no way was

hitler's open anti-semitism or ideology

enough to know he was going to commit

the holocaust it was a huge shock and

surprise to the entire world which

changed the nature of how anti-semitism

was received

forever okay that's what i'm trying to

say

am i unmuted hello yeah you're unmuted

now

sick so the point of me bringing that up

when you express the analogy initially

just to correct uh the record because

you strawmanned me is to point out that

there's a significant difference between

7.5 percent of a standing military um

engaging in neo-nazism explicitly and

therefore somehow magically esoterically

having an influence on the rest of the

standing military system

i can describe it just let me finish

come on you've been talking all night

and such that they're partial to the

ideology of neo-nazism right versus

uh a military that is very explicitly

subscribing to the ideology because the

guy they're [ __ ] directly swearing

loyalty to has been saying for like

years that the jews are a problem that

they need to get rid of right that's the

reason to think it's this analogous

because if you'll recall your initial

claim at the outset of all of this was

something to the effect of well i think

the ukrainian military slash deep sorry

ukrainian government slash deep state uh

is is a nazi institution and the reason

i think that at least one reason um is

that

at least one

well sure fine but one of the many

reasons that you suppose uh supposedly

have to believe that is that these are

there are these battalions which

are neo-nazi and they're somehow

influencing all these other yeah

just so you understand right

you you see why that would be just

analogous if

if conditional right if the claim

is that somehow we're supposed to

believe that at its core the [ __ ]

ukrainian deep state government whatever

you call it is an explicitly neo-nazi

institution

you understand why that's a problem if

you're if you're doing like an induction

okay it doesn't follow no

can can you actually like i hogan i've

listened to you very very carefully

because i want to rip you apart you

don't listen to anything i say so listen

very carefully pogan

there's two prongs listen very carefully

two prongs

listen very carefully if you want to

even have a chance in this debate two

prongs the first one it is not true that

i claim that they magically influence

the ukrainian armed forces as the 7.5

percent i've been trying to explain how

they do but you keep cutting me off i

would be more than happy to give you

more examples of how this influence and

how the mechanism of this influence is

concerned but the only thing

shut the [ __ ] up because i let you talk

pogen i let you [ __ ] spoink oink oink

like a pig for a long time so let me

talk now

all i wanted to do is prove that them

being 7.5 percent alone does not

discount the possibility of that

influence i was more than happy to name

you examples

of that influence okay the second point

respect to the analogy though the second

point with respect to the analogy

there's two prongs to this

the second point is that that is making

the assumption that hitler's

anti-semitic ideology was known to be

the extermination camps of the holocaust

which it wasn't

did you know that what

i'm six foot three

i don't know

so don't say seating because you

absolutely do wait so you're conceding

hold on so you're conceding i didn't

concede

i just gave you my rebuttal and that's

how you respond you're refuting a straw

man how would like what do you want me

to respond what is the strong how is it

a straw man the straw man is saying that

i ever at any point was talking about

just uh genocide explicitly when i

merely said all that's necessary for the

analogy to break down is that in one

case they're not explicitly subscribing

to some x ideology and in the other case

they are that's simple but the analogy

was not along the access of the

ideologies which i even muted you to

clarify hey easy cowboy this isn't

[ __ ] modern day debate okay just

chill out the point is that's

sufficiently dis analogous to make the

point break down because you're trying

to let me know when you shut the [ __ ] up

let me know when you shut the [ __ ] up

oh i'm happy to yeah that you're trying

to say that's reason to think that like

um we can conclude that the ukrainian

deep state is somehow explicitly

neo-nazi but you haven't actually

presented some sort of analogous

reasoning

you [ __ ] up

the whole thing

the analogy was not you just saw the

microsoft paint look at it again i am

not comparing the subscription to

neo-nazi ideology in ukraine to the

subscription of nazi ideology in the

german army are you going to tell me how

cpi was ever

looked like i'm i'm so are you hogan the

more snide remarks you make the more

you're you're admitting you lost this

debate

for you to respond to the point i

actually do i have to mute you if i mute

you will you listen to what i say

i mean you're attacking a straw man

you didn't even hear what i said how

would you know if it's a straw man or

not how could i not hear you you've been

[ __ ] screaming into the mic so pogen

i'm not comparing ideology

of nazism to the in germany to the

ideology of the neo-nazism in ukraine

i'm comparing the holocaust

just as an abstract analogy about how a

minority of the people in an institution

can do things or or um

have positions already in the german

case that's the point okay okay okay

but hypothetically if it was

you already conceded that it would

define the institution's intention

hold on hold on hogan even if it wasn't

a minority of the nazi party or the or

the institution of the german state

whatever you want to call it

if it was a minority in a hypothetical

scenario you yourself conceded that it

would make the nazi party and define the

nazi party as not only culpable it would

be defined by that action

yeah but the point is even in the elmo

cookie monster whatever the [ __ ] case

you tried to present the same exact

analogy just with different pronouns

right it's the same exact setup right

because i was trying to explain yeah

because it's an abstract hypothetical is

this [ __ ] what is this logan pogen

pogen how many times have you

interrupted me in this

if you want pokemon hold on i can let

you talk uninterrupted if you can commit

and promise to do the same to me how

about that

sure okay then don't interrupt me again

i won't interrupt you go ahead

yeah i think i've explained several

times what the dis analogy is um i'll go

over it again because i think the

audience is like uh kind of paying

attention just a teeny little bit

um so here we go you're trying to say

that there's this 30 component of the

ukrainian uh national guard

7.5 of the overall standing military and

this is supposed to be representative of

the ukrainian deep state being

explicitly neo-nazi right and in order

to present this argument you did an uh

analogical reasoning with

uh nazi germany and you were appealing

to like um you know the vermont and the

military and whatever but the problem is

this right unless you have some other

piece of evidence you'd like to supply

in the ukrainian case merely having

these 7.5 percent uh

of the of the overall military neo-nazi

does not implicitly or explicitly mean

barring a further argument that the rest

of the ukrainian military is neo-nazi

sympathetic in the case of germany not

only

are they like obviously in an

environment where the entire regime and

government and everything has been

cultivated

such that they're subscribing to nazi

party ideology they actually explicitly

swear allegiance and loyalty to

adolf hitler a guy who for like five to

ten years has been railing against the

jews very publicly and very violently

and very explicitly which means in the

german case we do have reason to think

that the german standing military

would very very

very likely be sympathetic to the

ideology of hitler in the ukrainian case

we don't possess the same reasoning

hence the dis analogy please proceed

haas go ahead okay so i want you to

actually listen carefully because you

just looped again and i'm gonna explain

to you why you looped it's very simple

okay

now first of all i am not saying

that just because 7.5

are there

without any further details or context

that this means the ukrainian armed

forces as a whole as neo-nazi the

context of that 7.5 percent is what's

decisive to the argument here and what

they actually do and what they are for

in regards to ukrainian armed forces

okay

that's what i

made that very clear from the very start

second of all i never actually

discounted that the whole of the let's

say german army during world war ii was

anti-semitic or was sympathetic or

subscribed to hitler's ideology on

because they swore allegiance to him

what i

made very clear though was that

subscribing to hitler's ideology at that

time was not necessarily the same thing

as committing the act of the holocaust

and the extermination of jews and in the

camps okay now even if it was for as a

matter of historical fact just refer

back to my hypothetical in which this

wasn't the case and in which it was only

two percent and 98 had no idea it is not

true that see what your your issue pogan

is that you're trying to make it seem

like i'm saying

that the german military

vis-a-vis nazi ideology is the same as

the ukrainian military vis-a-vis

ukrainian neo-nazi ideology that's not

what i'm saying what i'm saying

is that

the um perpetration of the holocaust

relative to the institution of the nazi

party assuming only nine percent were

culpable or directly perpetrating it i

should say

is relevant vis-a-vis the 7.5 and the

reason i'm saying that is not to draw

the conclusion that it's necessarily

true that just because there's 7.5

that means the institution is going to

be defined in a certain way the point is

it is more than

easily possible

for 7.5 percent of an institution to

define the nature of that institution

not even just the ideology but even when

it comes to moral culpability in actions

your inability to hear this argument

probably reflects the fact and you have

to focus really hard here pogan you are

genuinely a stupid person you are not a

smart person

simple as that

are you done yeah

yeah so it's i i never you straw man to

me again in that rebuttal i never said

it was like the holocaust in terms of

extermination right i merely said that

all that would be necessary for some

member of the german military uh to come

to the conclusions that i'm referring to

what conclusions

i thought we weren't interrupting each

other

is to just come to the it's just like

pay attention to any one of his public

speeches that even remotely mentioned

the jews for over the course of like

five years right they agreed with his

ideology and the party line at least on

some level you could infer that merely

by agreeing to be a part of the party

because as you and i agreed they swear

loyalty to hitler who was the chancellor

right and he's not very quiet about what

he believes uh with respect to the jews

um and the problem there is is exactly

what i've been pointing out it's the dis

analogy this whole time the ukrainian

armed forces you can't make the same

inference that they agree with the

ideology and the party line merely

because of the evidence that you

presented which was just the 7.5 percent

or 30 percent right you have to supply a

further argument to think that that

ukrainian deep state is a nazi into

institution if you're using the

existence of these battalions as

evidence for that you haven't given an

argument um that's the dis analogy you

strong enemy again with the holocaust

extermination thing i never [ __ ] said

that logan hogan pogen you're four foot

seven i'm six three

[Music]

i made it very clear that no one denied

that the german military was

anti-semitic or agreed with hitler

ideologically it is not under contention

what is under contention

is the question of their culpability

in the holocaust in this hypothetical

and it's a hypothetical pokemon stop

talking about the direct thing because

the directing doesn't matter just

imagine

look okay don't mention the

germany again because you're confused

about it talk about my elmo and cookie

monster analogy it is not relevant what

their ideology was in this case because

the object of relevance here

is about the holocaust not the ideology

we all agree that they were all

anti-semitic and they agreed with

hitler's um

views about jews and all that kind of

stuff that does that is not a one-to-one

uh that doesn't allow us to draw the

conclusion that they directly

perpetrated

the holocaust and that is it's simple as

that

do you agree that saying that i think

like standing members of the german

military subscribing to the holocaust in

terms of extermination

like like you agree i never said that

right

if you're not saying that

then you're not saying anything relevant

to the if you concede to me that

then why are you bringing up that they

you agree with me

to get you to clarify because that was

the crux of that was my analogy my

analogy was with regard to their

proximity to the perpetration of the

holocaust not their ideology no no the

conversation went hey

i don't think there's reason to think

the ukrainian deep state is nazi based

on uh like nazi sympathetic or a nazi

institution based on this evidence right

and then we've cited the numbers the 30

national guard the 7.5 percent and then

at that point you threw out the analogy

with germany you're like oh okay pogan

so you think oh you don't think like

the german military was like nazi

sympathetic just because nine percent

actually participated in the holocaust i

didn't say nazis i did not say nancy

sympathetic what i said was

no no no i don't because i did not say

whether they were sympathetic to nazi

views i said whether they were directly

culpable whether more specifically the

nazi party is defined by the holocaust

yeah and i never said that just so it's

about institutions and people wait wait

that's the straw man i never said merely

by being in the german military that i

think like every single [ __ ] person

was signing up to participate i'm glad

you don't think that i'm glad you don't

think that but you've just conceded to

me

hold on

because you said i did that's the straw

man that i've been playing no no it's

not that's not what i said you did i

think you're like no

what you were saying was that they

weren't signing up for the holocaust but

that they were signing up for hitler's

ideology which is true but that's not

relevant to my analogy i just don't

understand why you're so upset when i'm

the one trying to tell you what i

actually said and you seem so like

befuddled about because what you said

does not address my analogy

yes it does directly no it doesn't

because

you just contradicted yourself nowhere

in my analogy am i equating perpetrating

the holocaust with subscribing to the

nazi ideology at the time i'm still

confused that this analogy is the

difference between

making some sort of inference about 7.5

30 whatever having a neo-nazi ideology

and the ukrainian deep state being an

explicitly nazi institution versus

people participating in an institution

that is not only open about its

political ideology yeah but but in order

i'm almost done remember that's not one

just don't finish that because i know

what you i know what you're going to say

logan it's not relevant to the analogy

why can't you follow your own rules

go ahead waste waste waste our time

forward you're a very forgiving person i

thank you for that the point is by

joining the the german military by being

in the vermont the ss whatever uh by

being like a card-carrying member of the

nazi party what have you there are two

relevant differences there that are not

going to work in the analogy the first

is that you know damn well

right what hitler thinks about the jews

the second is you are explicitly

swearing loyalty and allegiance to that

very [ __ ] guy yeah neither of those

things right exist in the case of

ukraine yet you're trying to say that

this is some sort of analogical

reasoning that you can use to conclude

that the ukrainian government slash deep

state even explicitly neo-nazi

institution it just doesn't work that

way my friend

okay i'm gonna be very quiet and careful

with you

that is not my analogy pogen my analogy

is not about nazi ideology it's not the

ideology thing is not relevant to

anything i've said i said if nine

percent of the nazi party committed the

holocaust only that's still going to

define the nazi party as an institution

as a holocaust committing institution

okay if 7.5 percent of the ukrainian

armed forces are neo-nazis that has the

possibility and why i'm not saying

by default because again you may make

the argument that the neo-nazism is

incidental to the overall aims of the

institution but it has the possibility

definitely of defining the institution

of the ukrainian deep state has nazified

that is literally my that is what i said

from the very start you talking about

the ideology of the nazi party and the

ideology of the wermacht

is not relevant it's spoken before you s

loop in like an npc say the same thing

you've said the same things dozens and

dozens of times what you said is not

relevant to my analogy and my analogy

has nothing to do with the ideological

loyalties

of the nazi party or the wermacht it has

to do with their actions relative

and in in regards to the holocaust

are you done yeah when you throw out

evidence like there's x percent

neo-nazi battalions whatever

right

when the original claim is something

like ukraine's government deep state is

explicitly neo-nazi

what you're saying you're performing an

induction right i'll walk you through

this you're saying that that raises the

probability of your initial claim being

true right you're supplying it as

evidence and yes

i thought we weren't interrupt

why because you're wasting friends here

only with added context wait just just

please i i beg of you sultan has the

cruel please allow me to finish my claim

thank you now you're merely saying

though that it's possible when you

appeal to the uh when you appeal to the

battalions that

um the ukrainian deep state is like

neo-nazi right so you're actually

walking back the initial claim because

you're no longer performing an induction

at all you're merely saying you're

invoking some sort of weird possibility

okay just for clarity just for clarity

are you saying it is evidence for

ukraine being deep state neo-nazi or

it's not evidence with added context it

is evidence in a vacuum it is not

evidence but we're not operating so the

thing we've been just to clarify the

thing we've been talking about for like

an hour

is not evidence unless you supply other

evidence no i don't need to necessarily

just supply other evidence i need to

address the context of that evidence if

you were not comfortable supplying this

as evidence on its own like in a vacuum

as you said why not merely invoke the

other evidence instead of arguing with

me because it's not about other evidence

it's about knowing about the what the

actual context of the evidence so pogen

you claim you have a phd in physics so

you're used to working in vacuums that's

fine i was joking okay well sure but

that's not how real life works real life

is not like physics where it's all just

vacuums real life is actually

not everything

i was joking real life isn't evidence in

a vacuum all evidence in real life is

oversaturated with context

and that context is crucial to the very

structure of that evidence okay

so

in the case of

well okay on its own 30

being neo-nazi isn't enough but when you

add the actual context of that thirty

percent or that seven point five percent

it does actually add

uh to my argument it does add up like i

said the actual it adds to the overall

picture and hold on it adds to the

overall picture that i'm painting

which we haven't even had you haven't

even let me discuss more details about

that because you've been focusing on the

7.5 percent well it's because i was

correcting straw man's and planning oh

you weren't because you were saying the

7.5 percent is not strong evidence well

how do you know it's not when you

supplied when you supplied an analogical

argument i broke down that argument you

didn't hold on you told me that

you broke down nothing you broke down

nothing because i proved to you

either you never comprehended the

analogy or you were just wrong about it

sorry you broke down nothing pogan i was

having a moment because my favorite

streamer was yelling at me the point is

if you spent so much time trying to

supply an analogical argument for this

piece of evidence only to then come to

me and say

actually in order for it to be effective

evidence it requires further evidence

which is what you really mean by which

is no not no it's not what i mean by

context exactly come on don't [ __ ] with

me are there no other other evidence is

is like factually verified discreet

datum

context relates to the actual structure

of evidence now you don't know the

distinction of those things because

you're either not a knowledgeable person

or you're too much of a [ __ ] idiot to

put together what that could possibly be

dunbar's number is a defeater for

communism then by the same token i don't

know what that is

really you don't think like the presence

of russian sympathetic or soviet

sympathetic people in donbass

or whatever

can work in the same exact way that

you're appealing to with respect to

these ukrainian neo-nazis the presence

of ideologies that

justify some sort

am i denying that the people in donbass

are overwhelmingly sympathetic to soviet

ideology and communism because i'm not i

didn't ask if you were denying it i'm

saying do you think the same sort of

reasoning could be applied

uh

yeah why not

oh okay

so then it's just wait what form of

reasoning

well presumably ukraine doesn't want

them to like secede or be i think that

in the same way that ukraine is neo-nazi

as i'm the ukrainian state is neo-nazi

by the same thing that hasn't been

defended okay but by the same standard

you could also say that the dawn bass is

sympathetic to soviet ideology i would

never no no that's that's you can't say

that like the statement one

the unique ukrainian deep state

is

neo-nazi whether it's proven or not is

is irrelevant hold hold hold the train

statement two

donbass

is possibly or sorry donbass is like

russia soviet sympathetic rather than

being explicitly soviet okay then let me

rephrase it that's actually

okay in the same okay i think i think we

should rename the stream infra dis

analogy that's more fitting i gotta be

honest

sultan

i can't thank you

you are

such a [ __ ] idiot it's baffling let

me rephrase it then in the same way that

the ukrainian state is nazi sympathetic

the donbass is soviet ideology

sympathetic or let me rephrase he

predicted the examination hold on hold

on shut the [ __ ] up let me even predict

it even further right in the same way

that the ukrainian deep state is

nazified that the donbass republics are

sovietized i have no problem saying that

so what you deemed as like an essential

which you deemed as an essential

component of my analogy which was the

key word sympathetic proved itself to be

entirely inessential pogen you would

fail the lsat you'd never be allowed in

law school you are genuinely a almost

naturally stupid person

i mean you still have provided an

analogical argument that doesn't bear

out or why not probability well we've

explained that for the last hour wait

but hold on hogan you asked the two

factors that i presented in the case of

germany right are absolutely not

relevant crucial no the ideology thing

was not saying that wait wait don't say

that because that's sorry burp that's

dishonest they're absolutely crucial and

relevant because you're talking about

whether or not we can come to some sort

of justified conclusion about the

ideologies held by each respective

regime no i'm not the people i am not

talking about and by extension the

people that serve i am talking about the

nazi parties culpability in the

holocaust not its ideology no what you

said was if you think that 7.5 percent

of the ukrainian armed forces being

explicitly a new nazi is not reason to

conclude that the ukrainian deep state

is a nazi institution

right what do you think about and that's

when you threw the nazi german no hogan

the thing is that's not what i said

exactly

hogans

the record supports me though

the only thing that saves you on twitch

is i'm not allowed to say slurs so that

understand that

[Music]

yeah

i'm talking about you know like the r

word yeah like yeah like the r word

whatever yeah yeah

that's okay jesus christ that's okay i

can't call you the r word that's okay

listen pogan wow let me token let me

tell you something i don't think you're

my favorite streamer anymore i don't

care logan let me tell you something

okay

what i said initially is that just

because they're seven point five percent

doesn't mean it can't be strong evidence

it depends on the work in the morning it

depends on the structure of that timer

it depends on the structure of that

evidence just because it's 7.5 doesn't

mean it's not strong evidence because

the nine percent in the nazi party in a

hypoth or elmo's army let's say that was

decisive an exterminating cookie monster

or whatever or i don't know

um what's in other characters uh big

birds or whatever right

that in no way actually watch sesame

street it seems like you're just a

larper that in in in no way does that

discount the strength of that evidence

it depends on what that 7.5 percent is

doing you can't say it's not strong

evidence unless you know the context in

which that evidence is being presented

the reason it's

we'll go over it again i understand

people work on things

yeah talk again about the nazi ideology

please go ahead well the reason to think

it's just analogous analogous jesus i'm

tired the reason to think of this

analogous once again is because there's

two crucial factors that are being added

in the case of germany that are not

present in the case of ukraine such that

they would dramatically influence the

probability of the conclusion then then

forget about germany and use my sesame

street exactly so you agree it's just

analogous thank you

no it it's not this analogous because

the essential slogan it may as well be a

hypothetical because the essential

component of my analogy has nothing to

do with the history you can't see it i

appreciate the hogan the slogan hogan

it's not this analogous because the

essential components of the analogy can

be distilled into an abstract

hypothetically if you're arguing for a

negative right you can't prove the nazi

like the ukrainian government isn't

nazi sympathetic so gotcha pogan right

no i'm not i would really

i would more than be happy to move on to

illustrate more evidence in the

direction of the government being

notified what are you doing buddy

come on look let's uh

no i'm not hogan i i'm opening listen

pogen you're saying 7.5 is not strong

evidence i'm saying it is strong

evidence when you actually one of the

reasons i don't think it's strong

evidence can you repeat them to me

because you're trying to put the numbers

in a vacuum nope wrong

why isn't it strong evidence cracking

anything so why isn't it why isn't it

strong evidence because the two crucial

factors that would dramatically raise

the probability of the conclusion being

true you cannot substantiate in the case

of ukraine

what are the two necessary factors we've

gone over that about nine times wait so

you're now you're trying to make like a

a

necessary analogy in which it would have

to be the same necessary analogy when

we're talking about probability because

what you're trying to say now is you're

trying to say unless uh the german armed

forces bear the same relationship to the

ukrainian deep state officially which is

obviously impossible because the deep

state is not official to the german

armed forces in regards to the nazi

party or hitler himself

this isn't correct either so those two

factors are what swearing allegiance uh

to the ideology

and what else you no no listen they're

factors that you presented in an

analogical argument to substantiate what

are the factors i presented

exactly over that they're the two i'm

referencing the only factors i presented

that were essentialized in my analogy

were this

a minority of the nazi party whether

it's true or not what do you mean by

essentialized

like it's literally just simple a

minority of an institution can easily

define the character of that institution

huh

that has nothing to do with the analogy

though why analogy was that well because

you were trying to say because okay if a

minority of nazis i guess

if a minority of nazis commit the

holocaust that is more than easily

enough

for that minority to define the

institution of the nazi party oh no no

that has nothing to do with it but

that's what i said but that's what i

said initially you're getting scared and

you're like but that's what i said

initially pogan who's scared of what

that's what i said initially

[Music]

it's okay listen the point is you

presented an analogical argument right

an analogical argument is designed to

increase the probability of a conclusion

being true

why because there's analogical

properties such that if you think

something's true in one case you would

have to say it's true in the other case

or at least be compelled to say it's

true except the problem what did i say

exactly we're getting there trust me and

provide evidence of what i said please

put it in fact checking no no get a clip

of exactly what i said and put it in

fact

get the clip so we can look at the

evidence of what i said

you said in the case of ukraine there's

the 7.5 percent whatever battalions that

are neo-nazi therefore it increases the

probability of the ukrainian deep space

space wow the ukrainian deep state being

neo-nazi and you analogized this to the

germany example where there's people

joining the german military and even

though it's a minority of people

involved in like the holocaust or what

have you right um you can still conclude

that you know the government is

sympathetic to that agenda or the party

ideology i'm denying that

i'm denying that that i said that

well i mean that's just i don't know

what to say to that that's because you

admitted you omitted something pogan

what actually happened was first i

pointed out the over-representation of

neo-nazi battalions in the ukrainian

national guard okay then you said well

that's only 7.5 percent of the total so

that that's not strong evidence and i

said oh incorrect incorrect no that's

not all i said that's that's what else

did you say

when i said that it was merely 7.5 and i

added the strong uh it's not strong

evidence statement i gave a reason to

think it's not strong evidence right

what was your reasoning it's not merely

the number it's the number coupled with

the fact that and this is where we've

gotten into trouble you know my analogy

didn't start

don't mention the analogy don't don't

get emotional just listen right try to

listen for once

guys this one let me let me guys this is

what happens when i don't yell

this is what happens when i don't yell

over these [ __ ] soy boy pieces of

[ __ ] cucks is that they constantly

[ __ ] uh gesture around and they do

this [ __ ] [ __ ] brogan finish what

you were gonna say oh chad okay sure

thank you anyway point is i didn't

merely say it was the number that made

it weak evidence i said it was the

number coupled with the fact that you're

trying to make a claim like that an

induction without the connective tissue

such that the never has any bearing on

the probability of the deep state uh

ukrainian deep state being neo-nazi and

then remember let's let's

keep track here remember you then

presented the analogical argument with

germany and i said well haas that's dis

analogous xyz reasons and then you lost

you like lost that would be nice if it

was true but it's not because what

actually happened was that you just

looked back in the record we can look

back when you asked me for connective

tissue i didn't respond with the analogy

i responded by actually giving you

connective tissue about the overwhelm

i talked about maripole in 2015. i gave

you plenty of connective tissue at the

time which you just completely ignored

and then i said pogen there's nothing

it's more than possible for seven point

five percent to be able to rep define an

institution just look at the case

it's more than it's hold on hold on hold

on

no it's about possibility because it's

more than possible so it's possible okay

well congratulations yeah it's more than

possible it's possible a victorious

secret model is going to walk in the

door right now and blow me is it more

probable

based on some evidence that you're

supplying or is it just possible okay

let's the you're claiming it's

improbable right or whatever you said

that that's seven point five percent

that's that's you said the seven point

hold on

hogan what you said is the 7.5 is not

strong evidence where's james when you

need him

go ahead

you said the 7.5

is not strong evidence

that's correct yes yeah but i didn't

make it but then you asked me for

connective tissue i gave you connective

tissue and i coupled that connective

tissue by saying there's nothing about

it being seven point five percent

that is that indicates that this is not

r uh as uh proportional connective

tissue that you offered was an analogous

no it wasn't the connective tissue that

i offered was the azov taking my 2015.

don't get emotional

you are a [ __ ] liar the connective

tissue i offered was the

overrepresentation of these neo-nazi

forces in ukrainian armed forces help

don't get emotional please all right are

you okay pogan twitch tls is the only

thing that saves you it's the only thing

that saves you hogan are you are you

implying a death threat you're a pig

you're a pig you're

every time i [ __ ] corner you sound

like a [ __ ] laughing hyena little

[ __ ] bogan you've always been a little

[ __ ] bogan ever heard of that how you

[ __ ] fat pig

i gave you connective tissue you ignored

it i supplemented the connective tissue

so giving you an example of how a

minority can drastically define an

organization just because it's 7.5

doesn't mean it can't be strong evidence

you just need to contextualize the

evidence that's what i [ __ ] said you

haven't addressed a single one point of

my [ __ ] argument not once have we

made any [ __ ] progress because it's

just stupid to [ __ ] understand what

i'm even saying

pause

chat infrared it's been a fantastic

evening

manhood conceded get the [ __ ] out of

here [ __ ] i'm not conceding you are

conceding

[ __ ] out of you you're not getting a

closing statement [ __ ] get the [ __ ] out

of here

get the [ __ ] out of here with your

[ __ ] pigtail you're squealing squeal

more oink oink with your pigtail between

your [ __ ] legs go ahead and run away

little [ __ ]

i'm still in the vc though okay so are

you not leaving then

i have uh work at 8 30. i don't give a

[ __ ]

okay yeah i'll i'll get fired for you

hoz you're my favorite streamer yeah got

it go ahead you [ __ ] [ __ ] can i make

a statement or not are you gonna let me

no you can't make a closing statement

you either debate me or you don't be

honest debate me or run away you little

[ __ ]

i am debating you no you're not you're

running away position you're running

away

i was going to summarize my position

you have no position you're not okay

with that what's my piss oh oh awesome

okay what's my position tell me go ahead

your position is that you're unable to

understand

any of the arguments i've actually

forwarded throughout this entire debate

that's you think that's my position

that's what you have that is objectively

your position it's just people outside

of your chat take you to be a serious

person i actually don't give a [ __ ]

i i can tell yeah

most people have like

at least some degree of like dignity if

you measure this like mathematically i

want like any formal standard of victory

in terms of measuring our debates with

regard to logic i [ __ ] dude all right uh

take it easy ak four foot seven have a

good evening fat [ __ ] okay you fat ugly

[ __ ] pig [ __ ]

you [ __ ] fat

[ __ ] pig oink oink more pogon

fat [ __ ]