Haz debates Alacrity (Demonstrooter) about Economics

the debate's starting now guys starting

right now

um okay kept this guy waiting for like

three hours today but we're here now

so yeah i'll meet your mic whenever

technical difficulties return hello

and hello

hello

hello

hello

i can hear you right now yeah i can hear

you now

that's fine this one

sent me yeah and uh

there are a few things that i found

interesting about your economics

sure what do you mean when you say that

innovation isn't something hap forgive

me if i'm

wrong what do you mean that innovation

isn't something that happens

when uh on an individual level

innovation yeah i remember you

yeah talking about i think it's about

the midway point you were just talking

about how

technological the basic idea is that

there's some kind of more

fundamental social technological

cultural historical whatever

transformation that happens

some real change happens first and

individual brilliance only draws that

out

what is that thing that happens first

uh in marxism they call it a revolution

in the forces of production

okay do you have could you give an

example of

one do you have empirical evidence for

this

um i don't know what you mean by

empirical evidence but there's plenty of

examples i could give you i could give

you the example of how

you could argue that the steam engine

the invention of the steam engine

was just picking up the pieces of the

more broad

historical transformation that resulted

from

the english civil war this kind of

apocalyptic

social event there's the example of how

the rise

of computers for example followed world

war ii

uh world war ii the 1930s the new deal

that was this was a kind of fundamental

uh

social revolution so there's actually

plenty and plenty of examples uh

there's one that's happening right now

actually

there isn't a uh that all those that you

just listed that doesn't really

demonstrate

that individual brilliance is just

drawing on a greater

trend that doesn't actually follow from

that

okay uh go ahead explain my point is

that you haven't

met the burden of proof beginning you

haven't done

my point is that you haven't

demonstrated it in the first place how

they are related

you you haven't demonstrated in the well

of course i haven't gone into the

details of demonstrating that because

that would require like a way

that would require a lot more time to

explain like

exactly how right so i'm not sure what

you're looking for

well that would require a lot more

elaboration for me when you ask me to

explain how you haven't demonstrated it

when really

i'm just informed if you're not willing

to do it why would i be willing

by the way infrared i'm not going to

interrupt you if you don't interrupt me

so i think that cause

it's my show it's my show you don't have

leverage dude so let's not get it okay

i'm just saying if it would

would help but anyway

so when you say that every that

individual brilliance just draws in

something else are you saying

what are the conclusions that you draw

from that practically

you're the one who watched the video and

is raising this specific point to me so

you would have you have to contextualize

what i was trying to say in that video

i know i'm saying we both agreed you

mentioned that it requires a lot more

elaboration

and so you said that you didn't know

what you wanted what i wanted you to do

with that

so i'm advancing to just advance to the

praxis i'd like to talk about what

implications you draw from that view

then

what are your input i just answered you

it's within the specific context of

the practical implications as

demonstrated by the video being

that you have to think of a different

relationship

when you're thinking about capitalism

you have to have

a different concept of time than just

this kind of idea that

there's a linear advance in progression

of technology instead of that

it seems to be that there are different

cycles within capitalism

or within the history of modern

capitalism

that exhaust some kind of fundamental

upper limit

at which point uh upon this limit we see

some kind of uh revolution in the forces

of production the concept i'm drawing

this from by the way it's not just for

me it's called

they're called k waves contra day of uh

cycles are you familiar with these

no please elaborate let me see if i'm

pronouncing it right

punch punch ratio

on waves yeah and ratio waves

um they are uh you want me to read the

wikipedia for you or something

yes just explain how you're relating

them to your general argument that would

be they are hypothesized

cycle-like phenomena in the world

economy the phenomena is closely

connected with technology lifestyles

it is stated that the period of a wage

ranges from 40 to 60 years

the cycles consist of alternating

intervals of high

sectoral growth and intervals of

relatively slow growth

okay and these waves they are just

purely

trends or are they an actual physical

underlying physical phenomenon

purport to measure economic cycles

okay and uh any corresponding cultural

historical

social political uh changes

okay so back to what i was saying then

so when you say that individual

brilliance just draws on a greater trend

or something what

is a specific policy implication that

you would do into the future about that

because

so far you're just explaining ways wait

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait

you watched a few hours long you didn't

really

shut up shut up don't interrupt me you

watched a few hour long stream wait a

second

you watched

he said what's the policy implication

you're the one who watched a

few hour long stream you isolated a

specific

point i made that you find quite quaint

right

the idea basically that uh innovation is

not happening at the individual level

actually by the way

this was part of the more fundamental

point that the production of value

doesn't happen at the individual level

so this was actually the underlying

point this talk about

technology and all this other stuff

including art and culture

this was actually uh an ancillary detail

to this more broader and fundamental

point

about the nature of value okay this is

without the the context the implication

was basically that many marxists

have this idea that the individual input

of labor

okay is what produces value and that is

crystallized within the commodity i was

trying to rebuke this by saying

that actually value is not created

at the individual level value requires

a more uh distinct and dialectic view of

time

right not just this kind of uh input and

then output but

more this kind of realization of

something that in a sense already

happened

okay so when you when you when you ask

me what is the policy implication

of this it's a completely meaningless

question because policy was not the

point of that uh

lecture or that discussion i sent you

now if you don't like

that lecture in that discussion because

it doesn't um

tailor to the conversation you wanted to

have in mind which was about policy

don't isolate slip snippets out of

context from that specific lecture in

discussion because they have nothing to

[ __ ] do

with the argument you're trying to veer

it towards

well first of all what argument do you

think i was trying to veer it towards uh

the the praxis

implications about policy which is

completely irrelevant

okay so this theory of yours my point

what okay so what's your point then of

the theories first of all

i also noticed that you never really

defined value

in the lecture we please define value

do i need to define value yes we please

define value

value is alienated and abstract

labor that's the marxist view

okay so what is surplus value then

that's alienated

abstract labor that we please explain

what that is

because okay i'll explain it do you want

me to explain it

values explain your view of surprise

value necessarily acquires form

in the form of prices right

it's measured through price through

money right

the reason there's surplus value is

because the nature of value

um forces us to recognize it

as something that exists in access to

the form

it takes on in the form of price in

other words there is an excess of value

over the form it takes

okay and how can you demonstrate that

what do you mean well it seems

since you demonstrated in the form of

the production of

i wasn't finished yet i'm gonna answer

your question i don't give a [ __ ] if

you're not finished

you demonstrated in the form of the

production of wealth wealth that didn't

exist before

now exists that's how it's demonstrated

yeah but

but you can't really quantify it that

well so whenever you encounter a

situation where someone says well

there's really is no demonstration of

abstract

labor here in this assessment of value

do you know what abstract labor

seems to be i don't think you know what

abstract labor is do you know what it is

please define that then if you don't

think i know what it is you know what it

is

i'm asking you well first of all i just

said

my point is that it doesn't really seem

that your idea of

value can be falsified okay but before

we talk about

uh falsification which is a bankrupt uh

concept in the philosophy of science and

within epistemology no one actually

believes in it unironically in the 21st

century

but before we have a discussion about

falsifiability

my question for you is you claim you're

making a lot of claims about

my views of abstract laboratory so i'm

asking you what abstract labor is what

do i mean by abstract labor since you

know

you probably have some you probably have

some specialized definition of abstract

label so i'm just asking you to define

why i have one right is my concept of

abstract labor actually just the same

one that marx had and pretty much all

marxists

have had since marx and is pretty

commonplace among marxists

i don't think you've done your homework

okay so please detail it

quickly then because again but you don't

know what it is why should i give you a

free tutoring lesson as an educator

when you're the burden of proof is upon

you to demonstrate you know the concepts

you're talking about

uh actually no not really because i

asked you what your

conception of it is so but you but you

jumped ahead and made a value

judgment about that very concept you

didn't just say you don't know what it

is

you said that uh to quote ad verbatim

from what i remember you said

well abstract what you're it seems like

what you're saying about abstract labor

can't be demonstrated well how can you

know it can't be demonstrated if you

don't even know what the concept of

abstract labor is

because i don't who know precisely how

you're using it and

i just gave it how how are how can you

make a judgment

shut your [ __ ] [ __ ] mouth up this is

my show

how can you make a judgment

about the demonstrability of abstract

labor

if you don't know what the concept

actually is you made a positive judgment

saying that it is not demonstrable or

that it's not falsifiable

you made a loaded judgment about the

concept

without knowing what the [ __ ] it is and

by the way you [ __ ] idiot what i'm

trying to tell you this

because what you don't seem to be

understanding is that abstract labor

doesn't require any so-called empirical

justification

because as a concept it's almost

tautological it's not meant to introduce

some kind of new empirical reality we

aren't familiar with

it's trying to actually allow us to

understand the empirical reality we can

already observe

in a new and better way my point is that

i have

are you aware for example first first of

all we have a lot of philosophical

problems i'm detecting on your part

you seem to be stuck in this savage

barbaric

and primitive pre-kantian philosophical

universe

where all statements we make about

reality and all statements we make in

general

have to be validated and verified by the

criterion of empirical proof

this is such a philosophically backward

and primitive view

it is not even worthy of my time

you are not aware of kant's revolution

in the in the modern philosophy

you're not aware about the fact that not

every concept

that is within the uh that with which we

use to engage with reality

has to directly be empirical empirically

verified

okay so first of all i'm trying to

explain to you

why do you understand kantian critical

method do you understand what criticism

is it's the foundation of marx's

approach

in capital criticism do you know what

that is

infrared one thing at a time please i'm

trying to explain

you just [ __ ] out an octopus with so

many tentacles

and now we have to go through each

tentacle one by one

you keep getting you you just you asked

me you addressed one

point at a time infrared but okay go

ahead go ahead go ahead

okay so first of all the reason i said

that it seems a bit unfalsifiable the

service but i'm trying to get a better

idea of what you're saying because again

are you asking for an education or do

you want a debate i wasn't finished yet

infrared

what's so important you wanted to say go

ahead what's so important yeah go ahead

because for all i know you may have a

certain con

a certain conception of abstract labor

value that may be different from marx

but you may not know it so my point is

that we can go back and forth with that

so my point is that i'm just trying to

find out what it is

i had if i had a concept of abstract

labor you weren't familiar with you

would just say

i'm not i didn't know i don't know what

you meant by abstract labor that is not

what you said electricity

what you [ __ ] told me is that this

concept of abstract labor cannot be

demonstrated or is unfalsifiable

you see the difference we've been over

this so i should have interrupted you

because you didn't actually say anything

that's worth anyone's time i already

heard your [ __ ] argument here

that's why i interrupted you you see why

you see the pattern of why i'm

interrupting you because you're wasting

my [ __ ] time

you're not saying anything new you're

just saying the same [ __ ] you said

before

i'm trying to advance the conversation

what about the concept of abstract labor

makes it uh incapable of being

demonstrated in reality well

first of all i don't quite know what it

is so shut the [ __ ] up and don't say it

can't be demonstrated then

can we agree on that can we agree you

were wrong for saying it can't be

demonstrated

okay i concede will you please

now will you please explain what it is

explain abstract labor to you

yes just a quick definition okay let's

just google it so i can give you a one

sentence thing

here's the wikipedia um

okay there's not anything one there's

not anything

simple let me see if i can find a simple

sentence for you that i could read to

you

nope

are you still looking for it i'm not

watching the stream because of the delay

um i think i'm gonna have to put it into

my own words because i can't find

anything that's gonna be uh

useful to you all right well the idea of

abstract labor is basically this idea

that labor undergoes something called

socialization

which is basically which basically means

that despite the wealth of differences

between individuals

and the different you know things that

are going on in their individual

exertion of work

labor acquires an abstraction it

requires the quality of abstraction

so far as the uh its um

its cost is concerned in the form of

wages that

equalizes all labor basically as the

same this is actually how do you

how do you measure it what do you mean

how do you measure it

how do you measure it measure what

measure the quantities of

labor yes how do you measure it

you measure it in the form of the price

of labor

the price of labor okay can you point is

that

actual prices that you see in real life

are you talking about more abstract

sense of price of labor like could you

give an example of the labor value of

a good what do you mean

can you give an example labor value

now okay the conceptual significance of

value

arises in reality not when we point at a

empirical object and say that is value

it uh

arises in reality in the form of a

contradiction so in this case in marx's

case it arises in the form between the

contradiction between value and price

despite the fact that value doesn't take

a form

outside of its form in the form of price

it still exerts its contradictory nature

in relation to price in the form of

contradictions what does that mean

what do you mean in the form of

contradictions in the form of

contradictions uh

such as uh capitalist crisis

will you explain that really quickly oh

my god so this is another debate where

i'm basically just educating you right

infrared i'm asking you to explain it

because if you don't

you can change the definition later so i

think what you're talking about is over

production at what point are you gonna

make are you gonna make a rebuttal and

actually [ __ ] debate me you don't

know

listen if you know anything about

marxism you don't have to rely on my

personal definitions you should rely on

what you know about marxism

and whether what you know about marxism

is correct or false we'll see

but you should if you're gonna come to

baby about marxist economics

you should [ __ ] know what abstract

labor is and you should [ __ ] know the

answer to all of these questions you're

asking me

such as uh what is capitalist crisis

what is the falling rate of pride you

should know all of these

marxism 101 economic concepts you came

to me as an uneducated [ __ ] idiot

asking me for free tutoring lessons like

all the other people who've come to

challenge me to debate by the way

so please be the exception okay do you

know anything about marxist economics

i was trying to ask you because i think

you were talking about overproduction

is that what you meant by the capitalist

crisis overproduction the falling rate

of profit yes there's various different

words for it

yes okay so you mentioned

again back to what i was talking about

when i asked you how you measured it you

alluded to

that so i don't quite see what case

you're trying to make when you're saying

you're assuming we can go no farther

than uh

philosophical empiricism insofar as we

want to engage

with reality scientifically this is a

primitive

outdated view which was outdated by many

decades in marx's time

himself not to mention our time in the

21st century

you see well infrared you're making a

lot of claims but you haven't really

shown that the aspects of reality that

you're alluding to

weren't consideration in the first place

so i don't see why you assume so

you're not you're not so much concerned

with

the conceptual value that uh of marxist

economic concepts

what you're concerned with is the direct

necessity

out of which these concepts arise from

basically why

must we believe they are true

okay so and second of all i wanted to

clarify the reason why i'm asking

answer my question because you're

starting a lot of philosophical

confusions

you're not asking me about the

conceptual consistency of marxism or

the abilities that marxism endows those

with and

being able to relate to reality what

you're asking me is

why should i believe in the the

significance and value of marx why do i

have to care about marxism

you know show me and measure me

something in reality

and that's why like that's not how it

works though do you see the issue

uh no you haven't really demonstrated

that

like you're like a [ __ ] idiot where

like if galileo made it

like show me the sun show me what the

earth looks like you know i'm saying

you're such a [ __ ] idiot like that

you're being lazy you're being

intellectually lazy

infrared another reason why i asked you

is because i watched yours

the entire linchpin of your position

here is empiricist

dogmatism every time you ask me about

something i said in the past you're

saying can you measure that

can you tell me that i'm telling you you

are resting upon a philosophical

foundation

that is outdated and completely uh

primitive

how is it primitive because kant's

revolution in the history of modern

philosophy

overturned the view that all the truth

values and all statements we make about

rally and all the different ways we

engage with reality have to be directly

measured in the form of empirical sense

objects that's why

well that i never made that assertion my

point but you did

why would you ask me to why would you

ask me

to measure abstract labor for you

if you didn't have this warped [ __ ]

[ __ ] view

that because if you can't measure it i'm

trying to find out how you can

demonstrate what

what it is so i can so i can recognize

it too

because if it's what that means but but

if you're asking me that

you're telling me you're not educated

about the subject matter

that you came to debate about today it's

not the case because

why would you debate over about a

subject matter you have no knowledge or

familiarity with

well infrared you're just telling me to

read theory basically i'm telling you

but you wanted to debate about it you

[ __ ] wanted to come debate about it

what

so you should know the bare minimum well

you're assuming that i have to take

certain things as

granted i'm assuming you have to know

marxism 101

to debate about marxism to email me to

come on into debate about marxism

you have to know marxism 101. why debate

about it then would you you came on so i

could give you free tutoring lessons

no infrared the reason why i keep asking

you is because

you seem to have created your own brand

i have a header an odd marxism that's

right

but you still have to have a

minimally familiar grasp of marxism 101

okay i'll make it very simple i don't

think sir

you exist how will you prove me wrong

what do you mean how will i prove you

wrong i don't think surplus value exists

you're free you're free you are free to

believe

that it doesn't exist but those of us

who do find value in the concept of

surplus value

will be able to have a more insightful

uh grasp of reality than you are okay

how how do you have a more insightful

grasp of reality

how do you explain capitalist crisis

okay well first of all the

overproduction that's not empirically

demonstrated but it's an empirical claim

so no there

there is wait wait wait wait wait how is

overproduction not empirically

demonstrated

because it's a theoretical framework

that you apply

to recessions when you examine them but

how is that how is that not

what happens but if you actually examine

the causes of economic bubbles

and recessions none of it has to do with

overproduction

why is that go ahead there's no

empirical evidence that has to do with

overproduction

wait wait wait you didn't say there's no

empirical evidence

that it has to do with overproduction

you said it has nothing to do with

overproduction i'm asking you how you

know that i did say that there's no

empirical evidence that has to do with

overproduction

okay and what it does have to do with

their various studies for example in

experimental markets

bubbles still form crashes still happen

it has to do with well i want you to

qualify the significance of that

statement what does

experimental markets have to do with it

my point

i'm trying to explain to you that the

causes of economic bubbles and

recessions yeah i'm asking you to

explain that you haven't explained it

yet

infrared because i'm trying to go ahead

keep it going

the floor is yours say it my point is

that there are lots of suggested causes

for

bubbles and recessions and depression

but there but there's no substantiation

for over production

bubbles according to even in

experimental markets which the reason

why i bring that up is because if you

simplify

it they still arrive even in

experimental markets with people

educated in economics

they still happen what does that mean

experimental markets

can you explain that an experimental

market

is used in economic studies where you

just create a market

of just a few people and sort of

simulate it

and it just does it's just done to

simplify it and create

idealized versions of sure markets

and recessions still happen in those

what

recessions still happen in those

experimental markets

yes so how does this disprove over the

crisis of overproduction

because there's no there's no empirical

evidence that overproduction was a cause

or even an

issue but marx never said overproduction

is a cause of anything

he said overproduction happens during

capitalist crisis it corresponds to

capitalist christ he didn't speak

about a cause the cause itself being

overproductive i know i'm asking for

empirical evidence of overproduction

you're asking for empirical evidence of

the phenomena of overproduction

yes and okay here's the kicker do you

know what over production is

what do you know what overproduction is

seems pretty straightforward yes

go ahead and explain i think you may

have a different notion of it given that

you okay okay i'm a heterodox marxist i

want to hear your

view of overproduction

i believe correct me if i'm wrong but

i'm pretty sure that over production is

that

in boom times more commodities are

created than are actually

than uh are actually needed something

like that my memory of it is a bit hazy

so will you please

explain it really quickly so you don't

know what it is

uh you just made a whole lot of [ __ ]

claims about how

overproduction can't be demonstrated and

you don't even know what it is

because i have a basic mem memory of it

i know how it relates to other concepts

but as for the concrete definition here

let's look it up

i'm not asking for i'm asking for what

is this thing you are saying cannot be

demonstrated simple as that

there's no demonstration that

overproduction the capitalist crisis

that you talk about when you talk about

so capitalist crisis doesn't happen

capital crisis doesn't happen capitalist

crisis doesn't happen

you're talking about recessions and

depressions yes those do happen

but the marxist interpretation is not

substantiated empirically

it is why why not because there's no

empirical evidence of it

what would qualify as empirical evidence

in your view if for it to be true

well you need to define it and then

say what you just said there is no

empirical evidence for it

so qualify what would constitute

empirical evidence for

it let's forget about the definition of

it if you don't know what it

is don't [ __ ] talk about it it's

simple well you haven't demonstrated

that you know what it is either because

when i asked you earlier

listen listen you [ __ ] idiot even if

i didn't know what it is

which is laughable even if i didn't know

what it is

you are the one making the claim that it

cannot be demonstrated

you don't know what you're talking about

you claim that it exists

which is an empirical claim now i want

you to

pretend that i'm not making any positive

claims i'm just asking you to

back up what you're saying you are

saying that it cannot be demonstrated

what it is what is it that cannot be

demonstrated

and what would in your mind qualify as

proof

that it is demonstrated what would make

it demonstrable

well first of all the thing that is

laughable about this is that you're

asking me what it

is when you won't even explain what that

they're eating because you're

asking because i'm not the one making

claims about them

if i for example if i said for example

that overproduction right if i started

talking about overproduction you said

what is overproduction

then the burden of me would be to

explain it to you right

but you're the one who said it can't be

demonstrated i didn't say anything about

it

my point is is that overproduction in

marxist

theory as i've tried npc please

repeat that it cannot be demonstrated

without actually

um proving that you even know what it

what it is which cannot be demonstrated

and what your qualifications

for its demonstration what it would be

exactly go ahead burden is on you

infrared because no it's not dude listen

this is what happens when i when people

come onto the baby who don't understand

logic do you you don't understand logic

logically the burden of proof is not

upon me to explain to you anything

because you made a

truth statement you made a value

statement you made a truth statement

right you want to talk about logic you

said

the marxist view cannot be proven in

reality as

cannot be substantiated i'm

since it cannot be substantiated first

of all

what it what is it which can't be

substantiated what are you looking for

to judge as being substantiated or not

substantiated

second of all what would constitute in

your view

its substantiation well

infrared as i was saying when i told you

talk to you about the experimental

markets and how recessions and

depression still happen let's go there

there's no production at all in

experimental markets

so but that's even but that's even

better

to prove the [ __ ] point how does that

demonstrate that overproduction is the

cause of booms

and busts you really want to know how do

you really want to know how

how it's because you don't [ __ ] know

what overproduction actually is you ever

thought of that you won't you refuse to

explain it

and i do know what it is then what is it

what is it marks this theory roughly

please correct me if i'm wrong but

overproduction is what causes recessions

and depressions that too many goods are

produced

and then eventually that results in a

bust is that correct why why would too

many goods being produced result in a

bust

isn't that what your definition of

overproduction is is that

what are you talking about you keep

money i'm talking about

what it is all of our production cannot

be proven because in experimental

markets when there's no production at

all there's still recessions therefore

overproduction is disproven i don't

really know what overproduction is guys

i never said that that disproved it i'm

just giving you evidence for why it is

an inadequate explanation

but you don't know what it is do you

actually think

so you actually think according to you

you wanted to come debate about marxism

right

and you think the marxist concept of

overproduction is basically when

too many goods are being produced and

for some mysterious reason this causes a

recession

this is the marxist view in your mind no

i simply so what is the view what is the

mark

well first of all why is there over

production

what why is there over production

because of you in the markets

because of systemic weaknesses of

capitalism i'm pretty sure

that's a vague meaningless phrase why do

marxists

why do monsters say overproduction

happens how do they explain the

overproduction that actually does happen

it there is overproduction marxists have

a way of explaining why it happens why

does it happen

yeah and the way of explaining it is

incoherent which is why i'm unable to

why is it

okay then how do they explain it which

is so incoherent

i just told you that that's why i'm

unable to remember it because it's so

incoherent

now could you what do you think about

this can you [ __ ] believe this

he's making all of these claims and he

doesn't know what he's talking about

what am i supposed to do with you here

you really want an education

you could just explain you kind of i

could just explain to you the fact

that overproduction is not the cause of

crisis overproduction is the symptom of

the crisis there's reason there's an

overproduction

is because capitalists necessarily have

to

drive the price of commodities

below their actually va their value and

part of doing that and when they do that

they have to make a profit so they have

to produce more

for less to make the same rate of return

that they did before

that's why there's over production

overproduction in and of itself is not

the cause of anything

overproduction is a symptom of the fact

that capitalists

need to continually reap a higher return

rate of profit and have to squeeze out

the extent of the value that is

crystallized within the commodities

they're selling

so far by through technology as an

example reducing costs in the form of

technology for example

in the form of producing more for less

money for example

but at a certain point at a certain

point there's a falling rate of profit

that's the [ __ ] point of why there's

a recession in the marxist view

okay good now i remember so i gave you

an education i

i had to give you an education about

marxism 101.

because you were stumbling and [ __ ]

mumbling you didn't even know what

overproduction meant

you literally thought overproduction is

when capitalists produce too much goods

then society needs

that's really not what it is though and

so so now we can go to the experimental

market example and why the experimental

market example

in no way uh renders the concept of over

production inadequate or capitalist

crisis inadequate because

if there's if there's no production at

all that means no value is being created

no value was created at all so in the

first place the

the source of actual growth the source

of consistent rates of growth and profit

is completely gone

in an experimental setting so that's an

even better exam that doesn't

disprove or render inadequate any

concept

you see why i said you don't know what

the [ __ ] you're talking about

infrared here's the problem you

mentioned

that you could not however he's going to

interrupt me how old are you

you mentioned how old are you your age

20 anyway jesus

and infrared you mentioned earlier in

your explanation for it which is why i

wanted you to explain it

you mentioned that the reason for the

overproduction is just the symptoms

because

capitalists have to drive the price of

commodities below their actual value but

here's the thing

if you can't quantify abstract labor

value you can't know if the

price is below it then then because you

don't understand what value is you're

clearly incapable of understanding

value can listen okay let's go

let's break down the concept no infrared

shut up

shut your [ __ ] mouth labor shut up

shut your [ __ ] mouth

no if you can't measure the [ __ ] up shut

the [ __ ] up we're going down to the

concepts

we're going down to the concepts why

can't

value be quantified because the form of

value is

price it's money that's the form of

value okay

so if the value in order for something

to be quantified

it has to be a form how can you quantify

that there's

there's one something right there's one

two three four five

six of one thing this thing has to be a

form

it has to be formalized and it has to be

some kind of

self same form and that there is one of

this

two of this three of this right you

cannot quantify

value because the form value takes

is the price

there is a contradiction between price

and value is the same reason there's a

contradiction between form and content

the content out of which arises form

enters into contradiction with that fame

series form

and vice versa form enters into

contradiction

with the content out of which it has

arisen this is the dialectic materialist

view

in general exactly which is why your

formulation of the capitalist crisis

doesn't make sense

because here's what you said if the if

the crisis is due to capitalists

needing to push the prices of

commodities under their actual value

which

is some sort of abstract let's not

obscure this you're obfuscating

that's all i'm saying they need to make

a profit

that when you say that that comes from

them having to push the prices lower

than what the actual value is

why do they have to do that well why do

they have to do that why do they have to

do that

my point is is that you can't that if

you can't quantify it you can't

demonstrate that yes

alacrity i don't know how to [ __ ] say

your name yes you can because you're not

answering my

question why you don't know

why i said why would the abstract labor

process

[ __ ] ass want me to meet you do you

want me to meet you do you want to be

muted

then shut the [ __ ] up daddy's speaking

you understand i'm the educated one here

i'm the teacher you're the student

you shut up and listen to me clearly not

the reason why capitalists

have to drive the price below the value

is not for some mysterious enigmatic

reason pertaining to value

shut up you're missing shut up shut up

shut up the point is understanding what

i'm saying

i don't care what you're saying shut

your [ __ ] mouth well you don't grasp

what i'm

muting his [ __ ] ass so i can explain he

said he's getting one thing

muted no one can hear you you're muted

so i muted him this kid the audacity

now i'll explain it it's competition

capitalists have to make a profit but

you in order to squeeze out a profit

margin

from your cost of production to the

maximum extent

possible and necessary that alone

requires you to const in order to keep

squeezing out

a return of profit relative to what you

put in before

at a certain point you have to drive

down your costs

you have to drive down your costs the

first form of that is technological

revolutions divorce production that cut

costs

the second form is producing more

for less money okay and competitive

pressures force capitalist to do that

because he's selling it for it i have to

sell it lower and you

and i'm selling it lower but i still

have to make a return so i have to make

more to make up for it

that's the source of the overproduction

and in this process

what ends up happening is that

prices eventually fall below

or equate which is the same thing

to their value there's no more surplus

value it becomes

lower even than its actual value

that was why i said capitalists have to

push price below its value

now i'll unmute him

can you hear me yeah okay can everyone

else hear me

yeah everyone can hear you okay

quickly yeah when you say that they have

to push the value

below the value you're talking about the

abstract labor value

yeah you cannot substantiate that claim

because you can't measure it

you cannot measure abstract labor value

you can only measure prices

but what you're talking about but the

concept of value

the concept of value arises from a

a perceived or recognized

contradiction in reality

value cannot be quantified because the

concept of value arises

as a result of contradictions in its

form

so when you're asking to quantify when

you're asking to quantify

val good value does not make some

consciousness

doing that when you say that the prices

are below the value you

need to know what the value is to be

able to say that the prices are below

it which you can't do and you admit it

did not be value

value is nothing more so far as we are

concerned with something that can be

formally quantified

then price you can't say that the prices

that you have no yes i can say that i

can say

that capitalists no longer make a profit

they lose profit the source of profit is

exhausted it's saying the same thing

whatever that source of profit is it

runs out

okay do you have empirical evidence for

that yes

in the form as noted by marx in periodic

capitalist crisis okay you have a debt

that's the connection you have not

demonstrated

why not because for recessions and

depressions that is not demonstrated to

be the cause

why not the long depression in england

and marx's view vindicated yeah

but he didn't demonstrate how it did why

okay okay then my question is what would

qualify as a demonstration here in your

mind

of this well first of all i don't since

you can't really quantify abstract labor

value i'm not sure if you can

demonstrate so if it can't be

demonstrated

why even bring up that it's not

demonstrated why don't you just return

to your real philosophical uh foundation

of dogmatic empiricism

and pop aryan falsifiability let's

debate about that

because this isn't about some kind of uh

plain spoken argument about what's true

and what's not true

it's a philosophical dispute because you

have dogmatic

unexamined philosophical assumptions

why do you assume that they're dogmatic

what do you how are they dogmatic

because you think that the value of a

concept can only be measured in the form

of its empirical quantification or well

you already

accept that when you say that prices are

below the value

how do i how how

because if you are able to say that a

price a quantity is below

another quantity yeah you are thinking

that abstract labor value but i never i

didn't qualify value as a quantity now

did i

did implicitly because when you said

that the prices are being

pushed below that the abstract label

when you're saying that the prices need

to be pushed below that you're already

implicitly conceding that you need to

quantify it otherwise you have no

grounds for saying that the prices are

below it

no because i don't need to quantify

value to say the price is below value

it's value yes you do no i don't you

can't just say that there's value and

say that something's below it without

being able to quantify

what value is why not because

how do you know if it's below it or

above it

the reason i know it's below it is

because the source of generating profit

is gone price goes below

what is necessary to generate profit

that is all i need to

say to make the claim that it goes below

its value because you don't know what

value is you

you keep operating under this assumption

that value is a form but the form of

value is price

itself so when i'm saying it goes below

value i'm saying the price

qua price is unable to return profit

okay that's what it means for it to go

over you just don't

understand the concept of value no

you haven't explained what it is because

you can't even demonstrate even if

even if the reason why you don't

understand value is because i haven't

explained it to you

why don't you shut your [ __ ] mouth

and stop making claims about it

stop making claims about value when

clearly this rests upon

the fact that you just don't know what

it is infrared you can't say that

something is below something else

without being able to

explained it to you so many times

do you not understand that i can say the

price falls below the value

if i'm qualifying value as something

that whose form is only price itself

it's the ability for price to generate

profit that's value you don't know what

the value

[ __ ] is that's come on my show do

you do how many times do i have to

repeat it

price it value it can be

[ __ ] measured qua price itself

okay price or the form of value

itself okay my point is that you can't

fault

value rests upon the difference

between content and form

do you not understand this if you just

don't get it

and you're not smart enough to get it

just say that

stop making this i know the point you're

trying to make you're trying to say

you're saying that price falls below

value but this implicitly assumes

that value must necessarily have a

quantity of its own in order for price

to be below that quantity

but value is nothing more than a

reference to the relationship

between price and profit see the issue

but that can't be the case because if

you're saying that the prices that exist

in reality are below

okay okay so so so so so if you're a cap

if you're a capitalist if you're a

capitalist

and you're not able to make a return on

your i wasn't finished yet

please finish you

my point is that when you say is that

when you say the lab track labor value

that's just borne out by price the

problem is is that

when you say that the prices that are

currently that currently exist

are below the labor value those are

those aren't actual prices i didn't say

labor value i said value

let's get it right i said value

yes but then you said that you can only

measure it by price it's only related to

price so

can only measure value in the form of

price you can only measure value in the

form of price

and how many times please please since

you've been paying so much attention

how many times shut up how many times

shut the [ __ ] up how many times

did i tell you that this conceptual

necessity of value arises from a

contradiction

internal through its form

you keep asserting it but you haven't

shown that it's true

do you even know what i'm trying to say

when i say that

yes and you haven't done what am i

trying to say

you said that value necessarily arises

conceptually from a contradiction

that stems from which i don't quite see

how you sound like

because you don't understand that the

contradiction in the form of value

form we see manifest in reality

in the form that we're talking about

which is capitalist crisis

if again price could account first if

price

itself by itself could account for its

own real content

there wouldn't be a [ __ ] crisis there

wouldn't be any crisis of overproduction

there wouldn't be a crisis uh the the

more capitalists sell goods

they would just keep making a profit

that's not what happens

there is some kind of source of the

value there is some kind of real content

behind the prices there has to be points

otherwise why can the prices not auto

generate eternal

profits by themselves that has nothing

to do with

yes it [ __ ] does you [ __ ] idiot it

doesn't

and here's why not because

it doesn't and here's why it's because

when you say

that the recessions and depressions are

evidence

of that that it it isn't you haven't

demonstrated like you're conflating

your ideas of value with actual prices

and then you say that actual prices are

what is valuation what is value

let's go ahead what is value

again what do i mean by value what do i

mean by value

you already explained it go ahead you

seem to understand what i'm trying to

say

because because you clearly do i mean

you know never mind the fact that i keep

having to repeat this dozens and dozens

and dozens of times

you clearly understand what i'm trying

to say right you haven't been able to

demonstrate it so you keep repeating

it i have not been able to say

something which you're smart enough to

understand that's what's going on here

there's no empirical evidence to link

your conceptions of value

he keeps going on with empirical

evidence

okay how many times do you want to play

this merry-go-round

it's bingo it's bingo he's got the

empirical evidence card which he didn't

address my rebuttal to

he's got the you're unable to

demonstrate he he didn't respond to my

rebuttal he got the

i don't know what value is he didn't

respond to my rebuttal he got the he got

the he

had to quantify value he didn't respond

to my bottle how many times is this

broken record

going to guys play bingo play bingo get

out some make a bingo board and play

bingo with what he's saying

infrared i did respond to it first of

all i asked you to explain

how for the first one i asked you to

explain how was primitive

which how was it okay you want to have

the philosophical discussion

yeah because i okay sure sure sure sure

so what was your problem with

falsification you i told you do you want

to talk about

kant's revolution in modern philosophy

or do you want to talk about the issues

of falsification

how about the issues of falsification as

analytic philosophers themselves later

demonstrated

falsification would render every single

major paradigm shift in scientific

discovery in the history of humanity

impossible to explain

the astronomical revolution was

ultimately unfalsifiable paradigm shifts

are not falsifiable you cannot falsify

a fundamental paradigm shift in the

history of natural and

uh other sciences

okay care to explain because that

doesn't really

you're not really character

falsifiability means this it means

when we make a proposition there has to

be a way

to disprove uh there has to be a way

for there to be some kind of stakes

empirically like if i put forward a

proposition

there has to there has to be the

possibility

that it's wrong no that's not yes it

[ __ ] is

the possibility must be there that it is

wrong

empirical verification will confirm if

it's true or wrong this is falsification

so if i say there's an invisible unicorn

on mars

since we have no way to verify or

falsify it it's unfalsifiable

because it's an invisible unicorn on

mars

okay then so granted that

why is it when i say that you're when i

said earlier towards the beginning

because

falsifiability is an outdated view in

the in the philosophy of science that's

why

thank you arm's been bad appreciate the

five

because it doesn't explain revolutions

in scientific knowledge

what does that even mean it means for

example

kepler or galileo's discoveries are

unfalsifiable

because though thank you black lennon

1918

guys i'm gonna have to skip your alerts

i'm so sorry i'm talking to this [ __ ]

[ __ ] right now so i have to skip the

alerts but thank you so much black

lennon

um the reason why is because

you cannot actually falsify paradigm

shifting scientific revolutions that's

not how they arise

galileo could not make the discoveries

he did

under the paradigm of falsification

darwinian evolution could not have been

that's why actually popper expressed

early reservations toward the scientific

validity of darwinian evolution because

it's not falsifiable

okay but eventually it became

falsifiable you do realize that right

that there is empirical evidence but the

problem but that does not account for

how darwin

is this is a coincidence then darwin was

apparently being unscientific

but only later it just turns out he was

confirmed right and the same thing is

true

same thing is true by the way for every

single revolution in sciences

the reason why i point out you're

conflating several different issues with

falsifiability

the reason why i pointed out the

abstract labor value is unfalsifiable

is because you can just it is as

unfalsifiable as darwinian

and natural selection it is as

unfalsifiable no it has the astronomical

revolutions

of the uh 16th and 17th centuries yes it

is

you're just wrong no i'm right it's just

as much unfalsified because guess what

marxism introduces in out ceres words

a new continent of knowledge it opens up

a new paradigm

in relationship to reality so yes you do

have to presuppose

this paradigm in order to intervene in

reality in the way

marxism makes possible that's true for

every single

major scientific revolution in the

history of mankind

no it isn't there yes it [ __ ] is it

is actually

falsifiability is a technocratic doesn't

make it true falsifiability is a

technocratic concept

which specifically applies can be

historicized to correspond to an era in

which

corporations have research paradigms

where there's

already a preset target of some kind

of verification falsification it doesn't

actually apply

to real historical revolutions in

scientific knowledge

again this is irrelevant to what i was

talking about when i write you don't

know anything about the philosophy of

science but just you freely use terms

like falsifiability like i give give a

[ __ ] about false fight

i wipe my [ __ ] ass with

falsifiability if you know anything

about the philosophy of science

you would know that falsifiability is

very outdated

infrared i'm trying to explain to you

first of all it's not outdated

yes it is it is yes it is it isn't it

literally is

it isn't you don't first of all you're

conflating issues

and second of all the reason why i bring

it up in relation to the abstract labor

values because

you can you know the uh look it up do

him quiet thesis

it isn't out do him quiet thesis look it

up right now

no they came after carl popper their

view is what gained popularity in

academia

okay which disproves false

do you consider consensus to be valuable

on its own

no okay anyway that's not what i was

saying you keep

diverting the conversation away so my

the reason why i brought up

falsifiability

why should i care about carl popper can

you falsify fossil biability itself

can you is the concept of falsification

falsifiable

is falsifiability as a concept

falsifiable

that's a malformed question is it or no

you can't say it's a malformed question

is it or not it is a malformed question

is it or not yes or no

it is yes or no

it or no is it falsifiable can you

empirically prove the concept of

falsification

yes or no again like i said it's yeah

oh no it doesn't really matter or no it

doesn't really

know

who believes in falsification is

falsification itself falsifiable

yes or no that's a malformation yes or

no

really yes or no it doesn't really make

sense or no

yes or no i'm trying to explain

yes or no i'm trying to explain or

no for the umpteenth time i'm trying yes

or no

for the um yes

yes or no it's falsification falsifiable

yes or no

i've tried to yes or no if you have to

choose one which one yes or no

first of all when you talk about

falsification it's not

what are you going to let me talk now

yes or no

for the umpteenth time it's not

something that it's a malformed question

i already have to presume

that it exists in a certain way that it

can be falsified it's a technique

so why can't i tell you the same thing

about marxism

well no because

here's the difference the problem with

when i mentioned

the entire reason why i brought up

falsifiability

is because you cannot really falsify

your notions of labor right but you

can't quali you can't falsify the notion

of falsifiability itself

i'm not finished yet infrared

i'm not finished yet anyway as i was

saying the difference is

is that when you bring up things like

surplus value or labor value

yeah you can't really falsify them yeah

you're using them

to make appear why should i care about

falsification

because you're using them to make

empirical claims about reality which

aren't true which empirical claims

am i saying that by merit of blank

empirical reality alone you have to

believe in these

well that is kind of what you know it's

not what i'm saying i never said that

you have to use some criticism too you

have to have a critical

you have to engage in the critical use

of thought you can't just blankly be

impressed by

phenomenal or empirical sense

impressions

that's not by the way the whole point of

kant by the way

is that you cannot actually have a

coherent human experience

based on empirical reality alone in the

first place

again as i was saying you are completing

different issues my point

of bringing up falsifiability please

respond to that i just said

you keep interrupting me so i can't make

my point

the reason why i bring it up is because

when you talk about things like labor

valued surplus value

and then talk about the capitalist

crisis and how that's evidence of it it

isn't

because you can just say whatever it is

as you say you just say that

okay wait wait so is

what's evidence of darwinian natural

selection

again what is evidence of darwinian

natural selection

i'm trying to demonstrate this give me

an example one example of that

from the beginning one example of

evidence you [ __ ] weasel

just one well first of all you need to

talk

you need to be much more specific when

you're talking about evidence for that

there's plenty no i'm asking you for an

example of evidence that proves

darwinian natural selection

there's plenty of evidence like what

name one name one i gave you many of the

marxist [ __ ] so you give me one for that

different and here's why because when

you mentioned the capitalist

are you stupid just a question are you

stupid

yes or no

anyway yes or no yes or no right yes or

no

are you stupid no okay well that's

pretty

are you sounds pretty complacent are you

anyway

are you stupid are you stupid no i'm not

i'm asking you

so i answered your question i answer

mine are you stupid you sound pretty

complacent i rather not love myself it's

complacency

are you stupid are you back to what i

will you please stop are you stupid

i have to know if it's so i can know

like what level i should be on with you

because

i tried to ask you for an example of

actually

rubing okay what in your mind is an

example of proving

uh something in reality you keep

diverting

and no i'm not converting you said all

the things i'm saying are not

falsifiable

tell me something that in your view

passes the test of

falsifiability and verify i'm trying to

explain to you

yeah what i mean when i bring it up in

the context i know what you mean i know

what falsification is

i've been five years of my [ __ ] life

studying this [ __ ]

so i know what it means you [ __ ]

idiot i'm asking you

what is an example concrete example that

passes the test of falsification in your

view

you aren't comprehending why i brought

it up in relation

to the question because it has nothing

to do with what we're talking about

anyway back to what i was saying

the reason why i brought falsifiability

in relation to

because i was making an empirical claim

right because i was making an empirical

claim that falls under the standard of

false viability right

you're just gonna say that right admit

it you're just gonna say that right

no i'm what are you gonna say then what

are you gonna say

i'm trying to explain then say it

i am trying to which keep interrupting

me anyway

the reason why i bring it up is because

when you talk about things like surplus

value or

labor or abstract labor value and then

just say ultimately that's just revealed

by prices

is that you can't really

d you haven't demonstrated how that's

connected to the cat

you call the capitalist crisis or other

things because there is no empirical

evidence that

falling rate of profits is connected in

any way to recessions or depressions and

if you research the causes for economic

bubbles

the best causes empirically there really

is

isn't much evidence for that primarily

because you're saying that

you're saying recessions have nothing to

do with falling rates of profit

yeah there's no empirical evidence for

that there's no empirical evidence at

all

yeah there's not much empirical evidence

sure

yes please provide it you mean you

provided you're the one who said there's

no evidence

there's no empirical evidence for it are

you sure about it are you absolutely

certain about that

if you provide your sources i will

concede

what is your source for it okay

what do you want me to do you want me to

go on google for you right now

well if you don't have any empirical

evidence for what you're for your own

theory then

and you're thinking you should provide a

source so clearly my own mind is not

going to be enough for you now is it

no it your own mind isn't enough for me

anyway okay so what do you want from me

what exactly do you want as an example

of the [ __ ] truism that the

depression was connected to falling

rates of profit which is a truism by the

way

it's what by the way do you know what

depression means do you know what

depression means

yes what's a recession what's a

depression

well it actually does rely on what gets

depressed what gets depressed

what gets depressed it require a

lessened level of economic activity it's

usually what does that mean

what's economic activity measured how

i'm trying to explain to you

it's usually quantified by a certain

amount

it's decreasing gdp something like that

but that's not that

war ii during world war ii

okay okay g you want to go down the gdp

route even though it's not true

no what is gdp no no okay so what's

going on

what is gdp that's what you just said

i wasn't finished yet because you cut me

off

what is it this is the most weasley

little [ __ ] that's ever come on my

stream

i said that it's by no means the only

one i'm simply saying that that's how

it's often defined but anyway back to

how did you define it i asked you how to

define it

it is not a truism that i am asking you

to [ __ ] tell me what a depression is

or what a recession is

because in my view falling rate of

profit is tautologically bound up with

the [ __ ] word depression and the word

recession that is okay then what is a

depression what's a recession

why do they call it a depression what is

being depressed

that is not the case what is being

depressed in a depression

again wherever you i get you somewhere

you keep asking me what i'm talking

about yet when i ask you you don't you

have to go to google anyway so my point

what is

i went to google to give you a summary

that won't be my heterodox marxist's

take it would be a [ __ ] marxist 101

summary

but anyway what is it that's being done

i keep trying to advance the

conversation are you interested in

answering this question

what are you interested in answering

this question what question

of what is being depressed or recessed

in a depression or a recession

look it up why should i look it up

because that's what i'm going to do

anyways what you've done there's no

juice but you said there's no connection

you said there's no evidence of looking

at

me you said there is no evidence of a

connection between falling rates of

profit

and a depression or recession right

the reason why i'm do i have you clear

there is no connection between falling

rates of profit and a depression or

recession

there isn't any okay good i have you

cleared

i'm so glad i got you pinned down with

that okay good paul so

so so in your mind what is it which is

being depressed

or recessed in a depression or a

recession like what goes down what

what's the line that goes down

again for the umpteenth time the reason

why i'm not indulging you

is because you're trying to construct a

straw man because if i give you a

definition isn't

it isn't exactly precise you're going to

no i'm not i'm going to let you say

whatever you want and we'll roll with

it infrared

you can you said that you consider a

falling rate of profit

and recessions and depressions to be a

truism

yeah that is false

oh really yes empirical evidence

for falling when you back

can you ever back up a [ __ ] single

[ __ ] thing that comes out of your

mouth can you back it up by anything

even logically

infrared

please provide empirical evidence that

listen very carefully that a falling

rate of profit

causes depressions and recessions

because depression

and recessions literally mean falling

rates of profit that's literally what

they mean

okay let's look at what depression means

go ahead look it up

let's see if it means falling rates of

profit yeah

go ahead i'm doing it it keeps pulling

up

depression and psychology

an economic depression is a period of

sustained long-term it could be a

downturn

i have it i'm trying i'm reading out to

you the definition

is the period of sustained long-term

downturn in economic

activity in one or more economies is

more severe than

a recession which is a slow down

economic activity

so what's in depression is characterized

by price deflation

financial crises a stock market crash

and bank failures

yeah so it's not just a falling rate of

profit that's a highly simplistic view

and it isn't even taught logical like

you say that it is but some industries

may have more

let's go buy those one by one right no

infrared yeah one by one

i wasn't finished yet okay go ahead

finish because some industries and

depressions

may make more profit so that's

another reason why the marxist theory of

value

is not as it doesn't deal with one

industry dude with the aggregate sum

total of an economy justifiable you can

say whatever it is

you need it to be no i'm not it's a very

conceptually coherent

point marx's theory of value deals with

the economy in the aggregate

marx is very precise and clear about

that i didn't pull out of my [ __ ] ass

you [ __ ] idiot

he deals with the economy in the

aggregate he doesn't deal with one

industry or one business

yeah that which is why it's very poor

why is that falsifiable

unfalsifiable it's a very poor way

to say that a depression is just due to

falling rates of profit

because it may not necessarily even be

the case

and it failed in the aggregate it is a

falling rate of profit

okay please provide empirical evidence

for that i will concede no i'll

i'm going to ask you a question give me

evidence of a single depression in the

history of capitalism

that did not correspond to an aggregate

falling rate of profit

just one just one example

just one please go ahead

oh i'll wait no i'm asking you

no no providing one example

i'm asking okay then i'm stating

dogmatically

that every single recession in

depression

corresponds to an aggregate falling rate

of profit

it's because it doesn't have to do with

just profit

is there an exact do you have an example

do you have a do you have an exception

you haven't provided any i don't know

we're all every single one

every single one to me every single one

again source please

okay great depression a fall in profits

what are you looking at i'm looking at

the debt deflation that corresponded

to the great depression and the chain of

cycle that happened

yeah i'm not watching the stream due to

delay so

if you just send me what you're talking

about that actually

now i'll just pull up the stream here

anyway so continue please advance the

argument

every single depression in the history

of humanity corresponded to an aggregate

falling rate of profit

okay so

how does that demonstrate your claims

about the capitalist crisis

what do you mean you're the one who said

they're unrelated there's no empirical

evidence for their relation

no my point is that that doesn't

necessarily cause the depression or

recession

what do you mean you couldn't cause it

so what because it's more of a symptom

falling rates of profits are more of a

symptom look at this [ __ ] he said

there's no connection

he said there's no connection look at

this [ __ ] i'm talking [ __ ] idiot

literally every single one of these are

[ __ ] recessions and they're trying

to clarify what i meant you [ __ ]

[ __ ]

infrared i'm trying to clarify look at

this

you're walking it back now first you

said no no

no no no no i'm gonna [ __ ] catch you

you [ __ ] weasley little liar

the first thing the first thing you

[ __ ] said

was that there is no evidence of a

connection i'm showing you an evidence

of connection right now

i'm telling you first of all now you're

saying

we don't only have to demonstrate that

there's a connection and

guys please make a clip of it where he

said there's no connection

now you want me to say that it is the

only cause

i have to prove it's the cause the cause

no i didn't say that it was the only

cause no you're saying the burden of

proof lies upon me

to now state that it is the only cause

no when before

when before the goal post was different

before the goal post was

proving empirically that there's a

connection

infrared when i said there was no

connection i

meant that it i should have clear first

of all so now you're the one

who's being unfalsifiable because you

just keep changing your own definitions

and changing your own premises at will i

was about to

you [ __ ] weasley little liar

interrupted i [ __ ] caught you

no infrared i was about to [ __ ] go

the weasel i caught you out of your

little [ __ ] weasel hole

and i'm holding you infrared i was about

to concede something called the weasel

pop goes a weasel jack come on infrared

rolls a weasel let's go infrared

infrared i was about to concede

something before you cut me off

anyway as i was saying i should have

conceit

i concede because when i said that there

was no connection

that was false so what i mean is is that

for as for a cause of a recession or

depression no not really

because when you're talking about in the

aggregate and the falling rate of profit

that's more of

[Music]

that's the way the money goes pop goes

the weasel

[Music]

anyway will you address what i said what

did you say no one was listening

what no one was listening to what you

said

okay well before you interrupted me i

was about to con

see something oh you can see the debate

finally no i wasn't getting no

no okay what did you concede well before

you interrupt me i was going to concede

that when i said there was no connection

i could see that i should have been more

clear what i mean okay so you're wrong

what i mean you're wrong this is the

second concession i haven't conceded

anything you've conceded twice

by the way because you don't concede

when you're wrong i haven't been wrong

[ __ ] once

not once thank you adrian's appreciation

you said earlier that anyway as i've

said

what's an example of me being wrong

well when you've mentioned that first of

all when you go back to abstract value

thing and say what the prices are

i told you that you can't quantify that

but then you say that i can't well you

can't quantify value because the concept

of value

would allow you to understand that it

can't be quantified because it's not a

[ __ ] form

in and of itself it's a context that's

not a form when i said that you can't

say that prices are below that then you

said oh well no because value's

connected to price

my point is that you can't no no but you

didn't understand the argument

you can't say well how do you quantify

value because value only

exists in the form

of price but we say that it falls

we say that it falls below its value

because we're describing a relationship

between price and profit

and a point of mind that you just

ignored

so so the value of the the

shut up so the quantity of quote-unquote

value would

have to be relative to the time

and place specifically of uh

the lowering rate of um profit and price

yeah what the value is is relative to

its instantiation

there is no fixed value anywhere outside

of its

outside of the form of price yes which

is why you can't

say that a price was below it and the

thing that you ignored

now don't interrupt me because the thing

that you ignored is when i said

that you need to be able to quantify

value to be able to say that something

is below it you then said that it was

connected back to price

but then the point that i said in

response to that that you just ignored

was that price is that you can't say

that price is below it then because you

don't know what the

idealized value prices are actually

going to

support you you don't actually need

idealized

values of price and you can't say yes

you can

you [ __ ] idiot you haven't been

listening all you need to know

is that price goes below the necessary

sum

that would allow a return on profit and

you don't know what that is

because you can't demonstrate i don't

know what it is because i don't know

what you're asking

or what in 1875 and 1920 what that looks

like will differ across time and space

so you just said that you couldn't

quantify it

but now you because value is quantified

in terms of price this is what you don't

understand

just because listen shut up shut up shut

up shut up

just because form gives form to a

content

doesn't mean there's no the distinction

between content and form is meaningless

how do you quantify content you can't

you can only quantify form

but you can arrive at the conceptual

significance of

content's contradiction with form when

form

undergoes internal contradictions

when form is unable to account for its

own premises which is the whole point of

marx's discovery

that the form of value cannot account

for the actual real content of value

you are locating the specific

contradiction that gives meaning to the

distinction

between content and form and what

you haven't demonstrated the

significance of any of that

okay look look look you're a weasel and

you're saying you haven't demonstrated

but why should anyone care if you feel i

haven't demonstrated it

i don't feel that you haven't

demonstrated it you haven't demonstrated

move it prove it what is your

qualification for demonstrating it

because you've made several empirical

claims and when i asked you for an

example of demonstrating an empirical

claim

you couldn't give me anything so how can

i know anything

there is nothing i could say that would

be an example of demonstrating it

because there is nothing

nothing at all that is for you an

example of demonstrating an empirical

claim

i never said it was nothing my point is

no you're flirting dogmatically there is

nothing

because you have not offered anything

because they're because listen listen

listen hello

you came on my stream you want to talk

to me right you sitting there and saying

well i'm not going to give you an

example

but listen i ask you for an example to

prove it

in order for us to believe that you

think there is an example of something

that can be proven empirically you have

to give us an example of one

otherwise we're going to assume you

don't have any just like how you and as

when you ask me for examples and i don't

provide you're going to go

well i don't even know well who the [ __ ]

are you you came on my turf

i'm the streamer i have the audience

your job is to persuade the audience

that i'm wrong your job is to persuade

the audience that things in the past i

have said

are wrong your job is not to come here

and say that i haven't sufficiently

persuaded you

no one [ __ ] cares about how you're

persuaded or not persuaded

your job is to debate me about things

i've said in the past

okay well here's no one cares if you

personally are not convinced

or persuaded because you are not the

audience

because my audience is clearly persuaded

i have 300 viewers right now

my audience is clearly very persuaded by

the [ __ ] i have to say

so your job is actually to disprove me

you

seem to be very confused about what it

is you're doing here

you you stumbled onto this stream to

debate about marxist economics

in the first 10 minutes we established

that you have

zero and i mean zero knowledge about

anything relating to marxist economics

beyond phrases and words whose actual

meaning you have demonstrated

zero actual knowledge of and now you've

stumbled your way into a [ __ ] weasley

little hole

and pop goes the weasel that's all that

keeps [ __ ] happening

pops knows the weasel you didn't really

demonstrate that because i went

because when i asked you about what

certain things were you had to look them

up as well

so you didn't really demonstrate that i

didn't know what i was talking about you

can look it up either

look it up you can look it up too

yeah my point is is that there's no

reason to do that

why not well if you want an example of

something that could be falsified yes

there you go yes that's exactly what i'm

asking for

okay there is a ring on your finger

right now

but it's not a ring actually it's a

[ __ ] piece of paper

you [ __ ] dumb ass

okay what a dog shoot example

what let me let me let me let me

entertain it let me entertain this

falsified

infrared but let me entertain it let me

entertain you

and you falsified it no no let me

entertain it let me know it was just a

joke let me entertain it what you just

said

no what you did what i'm entertaining

your example

i'm going to assume this isn't there was

a ring okay okay whatever whatever

whatever

yeah it was a joke i get it you know no

i was

you false electricity it was the joke

now let's actually talk about what you

just said

what if i say that in fact

your claim is unfalsifiable how can you

falsify whether or not there's a ring on

my finger by looking at it

why should what if your eyes can't be

deceived what if your eyes see something

different from my eyes in my chats

eyes i could tell my chat to lie and

they'll lie for me so you have no way of

disproving it

well not quite that's what do you mean

not quite

because that has nothing to do with what

i was talking about you keep no he said

there's a ring on my finger how are we

supposed to falsify that

well chad doesn't see anything i don't

see anything how do we falsify that if

only you have access to seeing it

well first of all when you talk about

that it very it depends a lot on the

nature why do we why should we why

should we

distinguish the ring on my finger at all

why should we entertain

distinguishing the object of a ring

being on my finger at all how can you

falsify that you can't fault there's no

way to confirm or deny it

well no not really because you just need

to be more precise with the terms

that's the entire okay bring more terms

then be more precise

my point is is that your notions of

abstract labor value

and surplus yeah but you i asked you for

an example

of something that can be falsified or

not falsified

on your finger i asked awesome yeah but

it can't be falsified

you did falsify it when you said that it

was a piece of paper and you demonstrate

it by taking it off of your yeah as a

joke

but if we're getting into a theoretical

mode of the concept of falsifiability

you actually can't falsify whether

there's a ring on my finger

you have no way oh no you haven't

demonstrated that oh

you haven't demonstrated it's you're the

one saying that i just demonstrated

why you can't you didn't that wasn't

because

in order in order first of all in order

for you

in order for you to arrive at the

conclusion of whether or not there's a

ring on my finger

you have to presuppose concepts which

are not

empirically verifiable like what please

list them

you have to presuppose

the concept of form that there is

yes you do because you're saying there's

a formally intelligible

object on my finger that's distinct from

my finger

define what a form is define form please

why should i define form because i don't

think you know what it is

yes i do know what it is okay what is it

then define form

form is a that's a tough question

form is

how do you define it well wait a second

i just asked you to define it

i need time i would need a lot of time i

would need a lot of time to define it

how would you define it

infrared yeah what you've done

throughout this debate

is when i've cornered you somewhere yeah

you say

that wait a second what is that he asked

me to define

and then because it's you don't

understand how profoundly philosophical

your question is

you don't understand how profoundly

philosophical your question is

listen this is why it's hard to answer

your question because if

any attempt to define form is going to

presuppose the very concept of form

so that's why it's tough it's a very

philosophically rigorous

and difficult question okay

how is it presupposed then

how is form presupposed yes how is it

well because

you are because you are because a ring

for example

is a form because it begins and ends

somewhere you're making an

object intelligible from its

surroundings in this case my hand

and you're making my hand intelligible

from its surroundings

okay as a content so how is that

so how is that a problem then how can i

you not falsify

anything then you said earlier that you

can't falsify because you can't falsify

whether there's a ring on my finger or

not

yes why not again and how is that

related to what you were saying

because i can just as easily explain

i can give you an alternative

explanation for whatever it is

you think you're seeing on my hand that

does not require

us to increase that does not necessitate

the inquiry

as to whether there's a ring there or

not well

no you can make that's not quite true

because you can make up an explanation

why can't i just say you're making up

the observation that there's a ring on

my form on my uh

finger because you have no evidence that

that's what happened

but you can't begin with evidence how

the [ __ ] can you begin with evidence as

your prayer you can't begin with

evidence as a premise here well your

beginning with form is a premise

yes because form is an abstraction

okay why is it valid because in order

for your reality to be intelligible and

coherent

you have to presuppose that there are

forms there's discontinuities in reality

that give rise to distinct forms

one thing is different from another

there's discontinuities in your reality

yes and you can falsify certain

discontinuities can you not

how how is this now how do you false but

but the presupposition this is what you

don't [ __ ] understand from a

philosophical perspective

the presupposition of that

intelligibility

actually is not falsifiable in order for

me to relate to reality

in such a way so as to distinguish

intelligible things within it

i have to presuppose some kind of stance

or position or situation in reality

that cannot be falsified

you haven't shown how that's the case

you are an npc and every time

shut up every time i make a point

all you know how to [ __ ] do is say

you haven't demonstrated the evidence

did you just not hear what i said

i did you're just making do you know

what the synthetic a priori is

again do you know what the synthetic a

priori is things are when i ask you you

say you asked okay can con synthetic a

priori

be falsified or can it be demonstrated

empirically

i don't think so i could be one no it

can't sure no it can't but according to

kant

the synthetic at the very concept of us

and the very uh notion of a synthetic a

priori

are the presuppositions that allow us to

make reality coherent

yeah before being able to even measure

it or relate to it or measure it

infrared you just keep reiterating your

philosophical

position but you haven't advanced how

that's the case second of all lots of

things that you're talking about are

ambiguities that just stem

from the lack of precision in

distinguishing it because when i say

this all you do

all you do is narrativize my words but

you don't actually give us meat and

potatoes

what does that mean like really prove

what you're saying

what do you mean by really proof it's

just saying you came on to debate me

not to talk about how unimpressed or

unpersuaded you are by me i'm not here

to convert you you [ __ ] dumb ass

you're here to [ __ ] debate me

so get to the meat and potatoes about

why i'm wrong

you haven't demonstrated that you're

okay then leave

no wait a second there are a few more

things that i wish to discuss

anyway the entire reason why we went on

this

tangent was because when i said that

your notion of abstract labor value was

wasn't falsifiable the reason why that's

a problem but you didn't you know

you didn't know what abstract labor

value was and you conceded that you

didn't know what it was so you really

want to go down that path again

again for the umpteenth time you keep

asking me what things are when you think

that i don't know what you keep making

claims about things that you don't

actually know what they are

you keep making claims about things

which you don't actually know what they

are

yes i can't remember them perfectly

which is why no you don't know anything

about them

not even a single thing you thought

overproduction meant

the question of overproduction people

produce too many things than what people

need

yeah that was more of a mistake yeah but

it was wrong

and you you didn't even know what

abstract labor was i kept pressing you

pressing you what does it mean you

couldn't give me anything because you

didn't know what it [ __ ] meant

and you haven't demonstrated that you

know what it is either because you

haven't really

yes i did i just told you what abstract

labor was

yes and the definition is incoherent

because you can say that it's anything

that you want it to be in relation to

price

why no abstract no no you don't

understand why marx forwards a concept

of

abstract labor yes to justify

his beliefs about the proletary and the

yes

no it's not well that's how

he could have that is an unfalsifiable

claim mark said it could have

uh produced a myriad of judgments and

claims about

the economy that would have also

justified the pro at whatever

you don't think anarchists existed which

make all sorts of dumb [ __ ] claims

about capitalism all the time

you don't think other kinds of

socialists existed which did that i

never why did marx specifically

demanding me i never said that you said

marx

you said marx developed the concept of

abstract labor

to justify his view about the

proletariat which is a [ __ ] lie

okay why is it developing because my

point

okay so because i'm the educator and

you're the student and i have to teach

you about things that you should have

been able to walk in here knowing

well because i do know it i just don't

remember it exactly and i asked you for

things give me something give me

anything and look at them you have any

anything about abstract labor

what give me any indication that you

know anything about abstract labor give

me any indication that you know what

you're talking about we can both

the burden of proof is not even upon me

to do the burden of proof is not upon me

to demonstrate my knowledge of abstract

labor because i'm not the one making

claims about it

you are okay well you walked in here

making claims about it

so the burden of proof is on you

you have constructed your own brand of

marxism

okay forget about mine what do most

marxists think it is forget about me

what do most marxists consider it

well i'm not that's not why i came here

i came here for what you guys what did

marx consider it

again we can just look it up i don't

remember exactly you didn't

know anything you said you said it can't

be demonstrated

and you don't even [ __ ] know what it

is yes i do i just can't remember

exactly what prove it

give me a little droplet of lit you

don't have to give me a whole exhaustive

conceptual knowledge of it but give me

something

that tells me you know what it means

again

strong thing no idea

of just an ounce of [ __ ] droplet of

knowledge

that you know what abstract labor means

you haven't demonstrated that i don't

know you haven't demonstrated chat chat

chat you haven't demonstrated you

haven't demonstrated you haven't done

it's a chat

come on you haven't demonstrated you

haven't demonstrated you haven't

demonstrated

you haven't demonstrated you haven't

demonstrated you haven't demonstrated

you haven't demonstrated you haven't

demonstrated npc's in the chat you

haven't demonstrated

you haven't demonstrated you haven't

demonstrated you haven't demonstrated

you haven't demonstrated go ahead say

something

go ahead say something well you haven't

demonstrated

go ahead say something i'd like to

advance you haven't demonstrated

advancing anything

anyway my point is that you haven't

demonstrated a point

you keep deflecting it you haven't

demonstrated the deflection

okay well you can caricature my

you haven't demonstrated me doing a

character

you can caricature you haven't

demonstrated me being able to do a

caricature

but i have empirical evidence you

haven't demonstrated any empirical

evidence

well yes i have what you're doing you

haven't demonstrated what i'm doing

there's empirical evidence you haven't

demonstrated there is empirical evidence

i really wish to continue this you

haven't demonstrated you were that you

really wish to continue

okay how can i you haven't demonstrated

that asking the question of how can you

in in good faith and earnestly

okay well i'm here i'm ready you haven't

demonstrated being here how do i know

you're here

okay i understand your exercise you

haven't demonstrated that you understand

my exercise

again this caricature isn't terrible you

haven't demonstrated that there's a

caricature

this isn't terribly helpful for what

you're trying you haven't demonstrated

it's not terribly helpful

okay well i'm trying to advance you

haven't demonstrated you're trying to

advance something

my point is that you haven't

demonstrated a point the ability to do

you haven't demonstrated a point

i like how your responses are the same

you keep rotating

my point is he keeps doing the same you

haven't demonstrated

because you keep saying this you haven't

demonstrated that i keep saying

something

because you keep deflecting you kevin

demonstrating he never got a deflecting

one he keeps it the same cycle

he literally has a predefined set of

lines he can respond with you haven't

demonstrated that

okay i'd like to advance you do you have

an advanced one you haven't demonstrated

you'd like to advance

for the umpteenth time you're having

this time that's literally one of them

you haven't demonstrated there's enough

team time

okay infrared you haven't really

demonstrated you haven't damaged you

haven't

demonstrated that i haven't demonstrated

you haven't demonstrated that i haven't

demonstrated

okay so i'm still here and i'm ready i

haven't demonstrated you're still here

okay what do you want me to say then you

haven't demonstrated that you know

you want me to answer that what do i say

what would you like me to say

to advance you haven't demonstrated you

want me to answer that question

what would you like me to say you

haven't demonstrated you want me to

answer that question

what would you like me to do you haven't

demonstrated you want me to answer that

question

what would you like me you haven't

demonstrated you want me to answer that

question

okay i get what your point is you

haven't demonstrated you get what the

point is

what would you like me to do you haven't

demonstrated this

that you want me to answer that question

keep on going keep on going more more

rotating lines

i can do this for you you haven't

demonstrated you can do this

i can do this for far longer than you

have you haven't demonstrated you could

do this

are you broken or something you haven't

demonstrated i'm broken

okay are you broken you haven't

demonstrated i'm broken

are you though you haven't demonstrated

the question of whether

i want to answer whether you're broken

i'm simply asking you what your opinion

is are you

you haven't demonstrated that you're

asking my opinion

okay again this caricature isn't you

haven't demonstrated there's a

caricature okay

so i can do this for far longer than you

can you haven't demonstrated you could

do it for far longer

okay well i will you haven't

demonstrated you will

well i am right now you haven't

demonstrated you are right now

do you know what empirical evidence is

you haven't demonstrated

you want me to answer that question

please answer the question you haven't

demonstrated you want me to answer the

question

okay how long are you going to do this

you haven't demonstrated you want me to

answer how long it's gonna be

okay so you haven't demonstrated so

i'm here you haven't demonstrated you're

here

i am here you haven't demonstrated

you're here

okay there's empirical evidence you

haven't demonstrated there's any

empirical evidence

again this is qualitatively different

you haven't demonstrated any qualitative

difference

this is much different than what i do

you haven't you haven't demonstrated any

difference

okay infrared i'm here you haven't

demonstrated you're here keep saying

you're here by the way

that's great you keep saying the same

thing you haven't demonstrated i keep

saying the same thing

again this caricature is you haven't

demonstrated the caricature

okay i understand that you're an

entertainer you haven't demonstrated do

you understand anything

i wish to address you haven't

demonstrated you wish to address

anything

i'm still here you haven't demonstrated

you're here

what is the point of this you haven't

demonstrated you want me to answer what

the point is

what do you want me to do you haven't

demonstrated you want me to answer what

it is

what do you want me to do you haven't

had you haven't demonstrated you want

you i want something from you

i wish to break this you haven't

demonstrated you wish to

what do you wish for me you haven't

demonstrated you wish for me to do

anything

again this is a gross miscarriage you

haven't demonstrated it's a gross

mischaracterization again

you will not break my rules you haven't

demonstrated i won't break

okay i guess we're going to continue

then you haven't demonstrated we're

going to continue

okay so infrared

i wish to discuss you haven't

demonstrated you wish to discuss

would you like me to just keep you

haven't demonstrated i want to do

anything from you

[Music]

okay how about i ask you about something

else how about we just

drop what we were talking about you

haven't demonstrated you want me to ask

about something else

okay infrared i really think

that it will be much better you haven't

demonstrated would be much better

infrared i understand what you're doing

you haven't you haven't demonstrated you

understand what i'm doing

infrared this is not productive

you haven't demonstrated it's not

productive i know you're making fun of

me

you haven't demonstrated i'm making fun

of you

for the umpteenth time you haven't

demonstrated for the um time

okay what would you like me to say

you haven't demonstrated you want me to

answer what

you haven't demonstrated what

this is not the same thing you haven't

demonstrated this is not the same thing

i am trying to be precise you haven't

demonstrated you're trying to be precise

again for the last time you haven't

demonstrated it's gonna be the last time

you're right it wasn't the last time

you haven't demonstrated it was the last

time

okay you haven't demonstrated it's okay

i will dispatch your argument you

haven't you haven't demonstrated you'll

dispatch anything

with alacrity you haven't you haven't

dispat you haven't demonstrated anything

about dispatching with alacrity

well you claimed that i was in it

you haven't demonstrated i claim

anything you're doing you haven't

demonstrated i claim any

i claim anything you're in a dialogue

luke

you haven't demonstrated i'm in a

dialogue loop that is what you're doing

you haven't demonstrated that is what

i'm doing

it's your audience you haven't

demonstrated i'm doing it to convince my

audience

said that you were you haven't

demonstrated i'm doing it to convince my

audience

you said that you were you haven't

demonstrated i said that's what i said i

did

there's empirical you haven't

demonstrated the empirical evidence

for the umpteenth you haven't

demonstrated the um teeth time

i'm not going to stop you haven't

demonstrated you're not going to stop

i'm not going to stop you haven't

demonstrated you're not going to stop

i am going to continue you haven't

demonstrated you're going to continue

for the umpteenth time you haven't

demonstrated for the umpteenth time

i know that you're making fun of me you

haven't demonstrated i'm making fun of

you

i just don't care you haven't

demonstrated you don't care

i'm here to advance you haven't

demonstrated you're here to advance

anything

[Music]

okay how long are you going to do you

haven't demonstrated how long i'm going

to it forever by the way

okay you haven't demonstrated it's okay

this is the best argument you've had you

haven't demonstrated it's the best

argument

you're right it's the worst argument you

haven't demonstrated it's the worst

argument

okay then it's the best argument you

haven't you haven't demonstrated it's

the best argument

here's the mistake that you haven't

demonstrated a mistake

when i ask you you haven't demonstrated

for me to ask anything

the problem is that you didn't

demonstrate a problem you didn't

demonstrate a problem

for the i'm never going to you didn't

you didn't demonstrate an umpteenth time

did you realize that you didn't

demonstrate realizing anything

you didn't demonstrate realizing

anything

i'm not going to lose this you didn't

demonstrate you're not going to lose

this you're already lost by the way but

it's okay

uh no i didn't demonstrate it's not the

case who wants that

i'm ready to advance you didn't

demonstrate you're ready to invent

anything

hey you broke the layout hey you broke

the tree i guess that means i win

anything you didn't demonstrate you want

for the last for the umpteenth time he

didn't demonstrate it's the up team time

i'm trying to advance you didn't

demonstrate you're trying to do anything

back to the capitalist you didn't

demonstrate you want to go back to the

capitalist

[Music]

you have not shown you didn't

demonstrate i have not shown

again i know that you're trying to make

you didn't demonstrate you didn't

demonstrate that you know what i'm

trying to do

i understand that you didn't demonstrate

that you understand

you didn't demonstrate that i didn't

understand you didn't demonstrate that i

didn't demonstrate that you didn't

understand

all you've done is let me pajama you

didn't you didn't demonstrate what i've

done

again you didn't demonstrate it again

[Music]

anyway you didn't demonstrate it anyway

okay i'm just going to keep talking them

you didn't demonstrate you're gonna keep

talking i'm going to keep talking then

you didn't demonstrate you're going to

keep talking

all right so i'd like to continue this

you didn't demonstrate you want to

continue

i'll just keep talking you didn't

demonstrate you're going to keep talking

so for the capitalists you didn't

demonstrate for the capitalist thing but

you're saying you didn't demonstrate

anything about the capitalist problem

the main problem you didn't demonstrate

there's a problem

what you're saying you didn't just you

didn't demonstrate there's a problem

flaw is you didn't demonstrate there's a

flaw

you do realize that you didn't

demonstrate anyone realizes anything

infrared you didn't demonstrate my name

is infrared you're not going to win you

didn't demonstrate i'm not going to win

[Music]

i can do this you didn't demonstrate

you're going to do this all night

okay what can i say you didn't

demonstrate what you can say

what can i say you didn't demonstrate

what you can say

[Music]

what will allow you you didn't

demonstrate that there's gonna be

something that's gonna allow me

you're mocking me for having a dialogue

you didn't demonstrate that i'm mocking

you

did you realize that you don't

understand what i'm talking about

i don't understand

[Music]

okay so how long are you going to do

this you didn't demonstrate that you

want me to answer that question

[Music]

for the umpteenth time okay go ahead

okay are you going to stop now you

didn't demonstrate whether you want me

to answer that question

okay the problem with what you're saying

you didn't demonstrate there's a problem

you didn't demonstrate there's a problem

appalling rates of profits you didn't

demonstrate there's a following there's

a problem that i'm saying there's a

problem you didn't demonstrate it

demonstrated

the falling rates of profits you didn't

you didn't demonstrate anything about

the falling rate of problems right

you didn't demonstrate you know anything

about the following rate of profit

because you don't

actually by the way i do and i'm trying

to

demonstrate you know you didn't

demonstrate you know you were wrong

you didn't demonstrate i was wrong you

didn't you didn't demonstrate

you didn't demonstrate i was wrong you

didn't demonstrate i was wrong

that they caused you you didn't

demonstrate that i was wrong we already

talked about the costly you didn't

demonstrate

that we did that you didn't you didn't

demonstrate that you responded to what i

already said about the cause you didn't

demonstrate it

no you said you didn't demonstrate when

i said it the cause was irrelevant

you didn't demonstrate that now did you

again you didn't demonstrate how saying

there's a difference between saying

there's a cause and difference

do you see there's a difference between

saying it's the cause and difference

between saying it's evidence you didn't

demonstrate you understand that

distinction between a cause and evidence

of something

actually no what you said earlier you

didn't demonstrate what i said earlier

you didn't demonstrate you understood

anything about what i said earlier

[Music]

again you didn't demonstrate you're

doing this again

for the last you didn't demonstrate it's

gonna be the last time

infrared you didn't demonstrate infrared

infrared you didn't demonstrate anything

about infrared

infrared you didn't demonstrate anything

about infrared

infrared didn't demonstrate my name is

infrared infrared you didn't demonstrate

that's the name i should address

you are a fool you didn't demonstrate

i'm a fool

well you can't really fault well you

have already neglected falsifiability

you haven't you haven't demonstrated the

validity of falsifiability you haven't

demonstrated it

okay so you do realize that i can just

call you a fool and

you haven't demonstrated you could just

call me that

you do realize that falsifiability is

still very you haven't you haven't

demonstrated it's still very important

okay so you do realize you haven't

demonstrated

the question of realizing

for the last time you haven't

demonstrated it's gonna be the last time

infrared you haven't demonstrated my

name's infrared

okay for the last time you haven't

demonstrated it's gonna be the last time

[Music]

well i've demonstrated you haven't

demonstrated anything

because if you knew what you were

talking about you haven't demonstrated i

don't know what i'm talking about

if you knew what you were talking you

haven't demonstrated you knew what i was

talking about

you wouldn't know you haven't

demonstrated i don't know

okay so you haven't demonstrated okay so

can you hear me you haven't demonstrated

whether you want me to answer that

question

okay you do realize that this is going

to become

how long are you going to do this you

haven't demonstrated you want me to

answer that question forever by the way

how long are you going to do this you

haven't demonstrated you want me to

answer that question

it not being demonstrated has nothing to

do with you or answering it yeah you

haven't demonstrated you want me to

answer that question

okay well i've just demonstrated you

haven't demonstrated that you've just

demonstrated anything

you're more of an npc you haven't

demonstrated on more of an npc you

haven't demonstrated it

what are you doing you haven't

demonstrated you want me to answer that

question of what i'm doing

what is this you haven't demonstrated

what is this

you haven't demonstrated the joker laugh

[Music]

did i break you or something you haven't

demonstrated that

the question of whether i'm gonna answer

that

okay for the last you haven't

demonstrated again the last time

infrared this has

you haven't demonstrated that this has

done anything this is a shame because i

haven't demonstrated this is a shame i

really wanted to continue the district

you haven't demonstrated that you want

to continue the discourse

[Music]

okay riddle me this i have a question

you haven't demonstrated that you have a

riddle for me

if you haven't demonstrated if

if i can't damage you you haven't

demonstrated that i can't demonstrate it

no no assuming that i do you haven't

demonstrated we should assume you should

do

i don't have to you haven't demonstrated

you don't have to you haven't

demonstrated that

[Music]

okay so here's riddles you haven't you

haven't demonstrated i should

do this if i haven't demonstrated you

haven't you haven't demonstrated you

haven't demonstrated

if i haven't demonstrated anything you

haven't haven't demonstrated you haven't

demonstrated anything

[Music]

okay have you demonstrated anything you

haven't demonstrated that you want me to

answer that question

you haven't demonstrated you haven't

demonstrated you want me to answer that

question

that wasn't a question you haven't

demonstrated you want me to answer that

question

that's not a question we haven't

demonstrated the assertion that it's not

a question

[Music]

again you haven't demonstrated it again

what is your point you haven't

demonstrated the question of what my

point is

is this your best you haven't

demonstrated this is my best

is this all you haven't demonstrated

this is all i can do

well you're demonstrating it you haven't

demonstrated what i'm demonstrating

you are you haven't demonstrated i am

what are you doing you haven't

demonstrated you want me to answer what

i'm doing

will you act will you just advance

you haven't demonstrated you want me to

answer that question

this is the worst debate you haven't

demonstrated that this is the worst

debate

you haven't demonstrated this is the

worst debate you've ever seen

[Music]

again how long are you going to do you

haven't demonstrated you want me to

answer that question

this is amazing you didn't demonstrate

it's amazing

okay you do realize that i can't yeah

you didn't demonstrate i realized

okay you do realize you didn't

demonstrate you want me to answer that

question

i'm going to keep asking you didn't

demonstrate what you're going to keep

doing it

are you trying to make you didn't

demonstrate i'm trying because it's not

working

you didn't demonstrate it's not working

okay

you haven't demonstrated anything you

haven't demonstrated i haven't

demonstrated anything

how can you demonstrate that i haven't

demonstrated you have been demonstrating

that you haven't demonstrated that i

haven't demonstrated that you haven't

demonstrated anything

again this is an infinite loop you

haven't demonstrated it's an infinite

loop

there's empirical evidence you haven't

demonstrated there's empirical evidence

of the infinite

are you just farming me you haven't

demonstrated i'm just farming you

well if you're using me for content you

haven't demonstrated i'm using you for

content

okay this is ridiculous you didn't

demonstrate it's ridiculous

anyway this is absurd you didn't

demonstrate it's absurd

okay this is apparently what you will do

you didn't demonstrate this is

apparently what i'll do

okay so i've demonstrated

you haven't demonstrated that you've

demonstrated anything i've demonstrated

you haven't demonstrated that you've

demonstrated anything

i've demonstrated you haven't

demonstrated that you've demonstrated

anything

you've lost you haven't demonstrated

i've lost

um you're losing you haven't

demonstrated that i'm losing

you keep deflecting you haven't

demonstrated that i've deflected

oh by the way for the person you haven't

demonstrated by the way

i know what you're doing you haven't

demonstrated you know what i'm doing

again i'm never going to stop you didn't

you've never demonstrated you're going

you're never going to stop

again this has nothing to do with

empiricism

you've never demonstrated this has

nothing to do with empiricism

it really doesn't you haven't

demonstrated this has nothing to do with

empiricism because you're conflating

you haven't demonstrated i'm conflating

anything you haven't demonstrated that

i'm conflating anything

okay so

are you going you haven't demonstrated

that i'm gonna answer that question

i'm going to continue you haven't

demonstrated you're going to continue

okay

hey can you you haven't demonstrated me

can you show me that you haven't

demonstrated how to show you anything

will you show me that ring that's on

your finger you haven't demonstrated

there's a ring on my finger to show you

hmm you haven't demonstrated hmm

anyway you didn't demonstrate anyway

will you just talk more about your

theory you didn't demonstrate about my

theory

how long are you going to say that you

haven't demonstrated you want me to

answer that question of how long

why are you doing you haven't

demonstrated you want me to answer the

question of why i'm doing this

i'm not going to you haven't

demonstrated you're not going to stop

[Music]

how long you haven't demonstrated you

want to answer how long

you can't demonstrate anything you

haven't demonstrated i can't demonstrate

anything

you can't demonstrate your claims either

yeah you can't demonstrate i can't

demonstrate my claims

infrared you can't demonstrate my name

as infrared

what is the point of this you haven't

demonstrated you want me to answer what

the point is

i've tried to debate you you haven't

demonstrated that you've tried to debate

me actually

[Music]

well you can keep claiming that you

haven't demonstrated that i

that i can keep claiming that rather

than proving it

through the vibe that we're going to

publish on youtube

[Music]

ah you haven't demonstrated ah okay so

back to what we were saying

you haven't demonstrated what we're

bringing back to what we were saying

you've never demonstrated it you haven't

demonstrated it

the problem with what you're saying you

haven't demonstrated there's a problem

with what i'm saying

[Music]

the pr i'm trying to explain it but you

haven't demonstrated you're trying to

explain it

again you haven't demonstrated this

again

[Music]

okay so why do you keep doing this you

haven't demonstrated you want me to

answer why i keep doing this

i know that you're trying to make fun of

me but why you haven't demonstrated that

i'm trying to make fun of you

oh i know it's because you think you

haven't demonstrated that you know

you think you're labor you haven't

demonstrated that you don't know you

haven't demonstrated anything is my

labor

okay i wish to advance you haven't

demonstrated you wish to advance

anything

okay so when

will you you haven't demonstrated you

want me to answer when i when will i

i can do this you haven't demonstrated

you could do this all night

uh yes i can no you haven't demonstrated

you could do this all night

i'm doing it right now you haven't

demonstrated you're doing it right now

i am doing it right now you haven't

demonstrated you're doing it right now

i'm doing it right now you haven't

demonstrated you're doing it right now

by the way destiny i know you haven't

demonstrated destiny's watching this

hey destiny you haven't demonstrated

destiny's watching this

you haven't demonstrated a joke or laugh

that's suitable to me

i don't you haven't demonstrated you

haven't demonstrated what i can

demonstrate what i can demonstrate for

you

you haven't demonstrated you haven't

demonstrated that i can't demonstrate it

you haven't demonstrated that i didn't

demonstrate it you haven't demonstrated

you haven't demonstrated that i haven't

demonstrated

you didn't demonstrate you didn't

demonstrate that i didn't demonstrate it

again you haven't demonstrated what i

haven't demonstrated

you didn't demonstrate you didn't

demonstrate what i didn't demonstrate

you didn't demonstrate that you didn't

demonstrate that i didn't demonstrate

you didn't you didn't demonstrate what i

didn't demonstrate

again there is you didn't demonstrate

what there is

okay what can i say you didn't

demonstrate what you can say

what can i say that would allow us to

break out you didn't demonstrate there's

gonna be anything that's gonna break out

of this

okay by the way

you didn't demonstrate there's a but

there's a way you didn't demonstrate

this away

my labor you didn't demonstrate this is

labor you're exploiting you didn't

demonstrate this as labor

yes you have you're excited you didn't

demonstrate that i'm exploding your

labor you didn't demonstrate it

you're far you haven't demonstrated on

farming you haven't demonstrated it

it is surplus value because you're

getting you haven't demonstrated surplus

values

i have no idea you are but keep it up

if this is the best disc you haven't

demonstrated this is the best discourse

i'm trying you haven't demonstrated

you're trying

[Music]

okay so

if you're going to continue this you

haven't demonstrated whether i'm going

to continue

which i am by the way i know oh you

haven't demonstrated you know

you are you haven't demonstrated you

know

you haven't demonstrated you haven't

demonstrated that i haven't demonstrated

you haven't demonstrated you haven't

demonstrated that i haven't demonstrated

okay you do realize you haven't

demonstrated

uh the question of whether you want me

to answer that question

[Music]

you can't demonstrate your entire system

you didn't demonstrate that i can't

demonstrate it

uh you did you can't demonstrate that i

that i did

um well this chat is evidence you didn't

demonstrate that this chat is evidence

you don't just don't understand you

haven't demonstrated that i don't

understand

uh yes you have demons you haven't

demonstrated what i've demonstrated

because when you i ask you you haven't

demonstrated what happens when you ask

me

when you ask me you haven't you haven't

demonstrated what happens when you ask

me

okay how long

you haven't demonstrated you want me to

answer the question of how long

why are you still doing this you haven't

demonstrated you want me to answer why

i'm still doing this

this is clear that you only care about

views you haven't demonstrated that i

only care about views

[Music]

okay you haven't demonstrated it's okay

you know i do this for 10. you haven't

demonstrated you can do this

okay oh my the views are going up

this is all you haven't demonstrated the

views are going up

okay well there's empirical evidence you

haven't demonstrated there's empirical

evidence

yes i have you haven't demonstrated you

have

[Music]

are you broken you haven't demonstrated

of the whether i should answer the

question whether i'm broken

um you have you haven't demonstrated

that i have you haven't demonstrated it

you haven't demonstrated it you haven't

demonstrated it you've demonstrated you

haven't demonstrated what i've

demonstrated

no you've done no you haven't

demonstrated what i've demonstrated

how long will this be you haven't

demonstrated you want me to answer how

long you haven't demonstrated it

[Music]

you want me to tip my fedora you haven't

demonstrated that i want you to tip your

fedora

okay

so if this is your best alright the

problem is that you haven't demonstrated

if this is my best

you have you haven't demonstrated that i

have

you're clearly you haven't demonstrated

that it's clear

you are clearly in it for view you

haven't demonstrated i'm clearly in it

for views

you even appeal to your audience you

haven't demonstrated that i clearly

appeal to my audience

and you said that you haven't

demonstrated

you haven't demonstrated that you've

convinced anyone

what you haven't demonstrated what i

never said that i did convince anyone

you never demonstrated that you haven't

said that

okay okay you haven't demonstrated you

cleared to throw

i'm never going to stop you never you

haven't demonstrated you're never going

to stop

okay so

this keep in mind this debate was about

to be about you haven't demonstrated

what this debate was going to be about

you didn't know anything about it by the

way before you walked in you didn't know

anything about marxism when you walked

in

you didn't either because you didn't

demonstrate i didn't know you didn't

demonstrate i didn't know you literally

didn't

you had to go to google you literally

didn't demonstrate i had to go to google

you [ __ ] idiot

i went to google you didn't demonstrate

the fact

you didn't demonstrate knowledge of the

fact that i only went to google to give

you an

unorthodox marxist take i'm a heterodox

marxist you don't want my head to redux

marx's view

he didn't demonstrate they have

knowledge of that fact actually that was

actually what i said multiple times i

said

you didn't demonstrate you didn't

demonstrate you had knowledge of marxism

101. you didn't demonstrate it

yes i you haven't demonstrated it once

literally you have i'm not even mimi you

haven't demonstrated it once it's a

reason why i asked you

you haven't demonstrated this with the

entire you haven't you didn't

demonstrate it was the entire reason

infrared the entire reason why i asked

you what you haven't demonstrated with

the entire reason

you haven't demonstrated my hydrodox

take takes you didn't demonstrate

understanding the fact that my heterodox

take would take too long to understand

in so many words so i wanted to get a

one sentence one bit simplification for

you that someone else on the internet

probably did a better job of doing you

didn't demonstrate that basic common

sense now did you

because it's incoherent you didn't

demonstrate it's incoherent you haven't

demonstrated it's incoherent

because it's incoherent you haven't

demonstrated it's incoherent

you haven't even shown how it's used you

haven't demonstrated that i haven't

shown it

again you haven't shown you haven't

demonstrated what i haven't shown we're

talking about

you didn't demonstrate that i didn't

know what i'm talking about you never

demonstrated it you never demonstrated

it

okay so first of all you haven't

demonstrated this first time

you didn't demonstrate anything about

falsifiability

okay i come in here you didn't you

haven't demonstrated you comment here

you claim that i don't know about it you

haven't demonstrated

that you know about it you haven't

demonstrated it

and yet when i ask you you haven't

demonstrated what you asked me

you also have to look you haven't

demonstrated that i have to do that more

than once

and i already clarified the reason why

yeah and i clarified that my reasons for

asking was because

one you didn't demonstrate you didn't

demonstrate anything whether you

didn't demonstrate anything whether

looking it up or not

you came empty-handed you didn't

demonstrate anything

uh no i didn't first of all because i

came in here you didn't demonstrate

you didn't demonstrate that you came in

here knowing anything about marxism

what even though you wanted to debate me

about marxist economics

i wanted to debate your marxism you

haven't demonstrated you know anything

about my marxist economics despite

having a two-hour video i gave you to

watch

you haven't demonstrated that i didn't

know in the first place you haven't

demonstrated that i haven't demonstrated

it the definition

you haven't demonstrated i haven't

demonstrated it

your debate tactic is you haven't

demonstrated what my debate tactics are

i think i don't know you haven't you

haven't demonstrated what i think is

wrong with you you read

theory you haven't you haven't

demonstrated where i told you to read

theory

you haven't demonstrated i told you to

read theory

again you did earlier in the day you

haven't demonstrated

you haven't demonstrated it how can you

claim about its falsifiability

you haven't demonstrated you haven't

demonstrated what i said about

falsifiability

my point is you haven't demonstrated you

have a point you didn't demonstrate it

i did know what you were talking you

haven't demonstrated you know what i was

talking about

anyway

you are obstructing this you haven't

demonstrated how i'm obstructing it

you are that's what you're doing you

haven't done you haven't demonstrated

that's what i'm doing

that's why i'm still here you haven't

demonstrated that you're still here

okay this is gold which is

you haven't demonstrated this with gold

you haven't demonstrated this is gold

i'm pretty sure the viewership is you

haven't demonstrated what the viewership

is

okay well you said earlier you've asked

the chat to bail you out

you haven't demonstrated you haven't

demonstrated i asked the chat to build

me on

that's what you did you haven't you

didn't demonstrate that's what i did

you appealed to them several times you

didn't demonstrate that i appealed them

several times

you did you didn't demonstrate that's

what i did

anyway you didn't demonstrate anyway

[Music]

you didn't demonstrate huh you didn't

demonstrate that

you didn't demonstrate

anyway you didn't demonstrate it anyway

for the up team time go ahead

you have a demonstration you haven't

demonstrated that i haven't demonstrated

you haven't demonstrated that you

haven't demonstrated i haven't

demonstrated

you haven't demonstrated that i haven't

demonstrated that i haven't demonstrated

that i haven't demonstrated what you

demonstrated

okay you haven't demonstrated it's okay

infrared why are you doing this you

haven't demonstrated why i'm doing this

you haven't either you haven't

demonstrated that i haven't either

you have no idea you didn't demonstrate

i have no idea you didn't demonstrate i

have no idea

you don't know the significance of

falsifiability yeah but you didn't

demonstrate i don't know the

significance of falsification you didn't

demonstrate that

you didn't demonstrate i don't know the

significance of it

again you're the one who thinks that a

quantity can be demonstrated

that i think that you didn't demonstrate

that i think that

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again you didn't demonstrate again

this is ridiculous you didn't

demonstrate it's ridiculous

infrared you didn't demonstrate my name

is infrared

it's what you've called yourself you

haven't demonstrated that i recalled

myself that

infrared you haven't demonstrated i'm

infrared and i should uh respond to that

why are you doing this you haven't

demonstrated that i should answer the

question of why i'm doing this

this is a caricature you have to say

this is a character

again you haven't demonstrated again

okay well

destiny you haven't demonstrated destiny

destiny you haven't demonstrated destiny

i am prepared

you haven't demonstrated you're prepared

you haven't demonstrated you're prepared

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well it's clear that you haven't

demonstrated you know it's clear

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well if this is your debate strategy you

haven't demonstrated what my debate

strategy is

i if i cannot precisely you you okay

haven't demonstrated that you cannot

precisely if i cannot proceed you

haven't demonstrated

you haven't demonstrated that i can't

claim you don't know what you're talking

about you haven't demonstrated it

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okay you haven't demonstrated it's okay

well i'm done with you

you haven't demonstrated you're done

with him you haven't you haven't

demonstrated you're done with me about

circle's value

you're act you're you're extracting my

surplus you haven't you haven't

demonstrated i'm extracting your surplus

value

correct you haven't done this you

haven't demonstrated it

well you that's what you're doing you

haven't demonstrated that's what i'm

doing you haven't demonstrated that's

what i'm doing

ah well it's a shame

that you didn't acknowledge that i you

didn't demonstrate that i didn't

acknowledge

okay i'm not sure

you didn't demonstrate you're not sure

hmm how long are you going to keep you

didn't demonstrate that i'm going to

answer the question of how long forever

by the way

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if this is all you didn't you didn't

demonstrate this is all i'm doing

it is all you're doing you didn't

demonstrate this is all i'm doing you

didn't demonstrate this is all i'm doing

this is extraordinary you didn't

demonstrate it's extraordinary

okay you didn't demonstrate okay why are

you so hostile to impeach

you didn't demonstrate why i'm so

hostile you didn't demonstrate i should

answer that question

okay your audience keeps asking for you

didn't demonstrate anything about what

my audience is asking

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okay you didn't demonstrate okay

well i'm actually going to have to go so

you didn't demonstrate you have to go

soon

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okay you haven't demonstrated okay

ah well you haven't demonstrated a huh

shame because

you didn't demonstrate it's a shame

okay you didn't demonstrate it so good

my point is that you've been you didn't

demonstrate that's your point

you didn't demonstrate that was your

point when i asked you to you didn't

demonstrate what i asked you

you didn't demonstrate what i asked you

well i have to take care of my dog you

didn't demonstrate you have to take care

of your dog

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okay well i have to go now you didn't

demonstrate you have to go out

you didn't demonstrate you have to go in

this goodbye

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okay then you didn't demonstrate it's

okay then you didn't demonstrate goodbye

okay well you can demonstrate bye

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i legitimately thought this was like a

crazy guy who was going to stay for 10

hours he actually left

we won and yeah