Anti-China Leftist Gets Rolled

okay i checked out his stream

and uh this is who we're dealing with

leadership to strengthen our process

are you like remember the creation of

workers

hot spots of communist and anarchist

actors in the first place

and because yeah

yeah look at his fucking hat

look at this fucking posturing look at

his attempt to look revolutionary

this is the fucking reason

he's in the show queue oh good he's in

the show cube okay we're ready

let's get this show on the road

he's here okay let's do this

let's get this show on the road all

right one sec

all right hold on let me

exit this out

let me pull up put this back over here

pull this up here okay

all right let's do this let's do this

okay one two three four okay we're doing

this

all right let's do it what up bitch

hello hey what's up

yeah okay hey um you got my attention

okay cool um so i want to kind of rain

things in a bit so initially

i was going to have discussion with you

on china but

i actually want to kind of defuse the

drama that's kind of flared up

over the last only after

you stopped me in my tracks completely

wasting my time and energy

and forcing my hand into doing this when

i didn't want to do it oh

oh i'm sorry for forcing your hand yeah

you did force my fucking hand

i apologize your chance to be cordial

and polite

has passed why is it passed though

it's passed because i gave you the

fucking opportunity to go through my

community and your response this was you

wanted to make a video obliterating me

well i haven't produced it yet and i was

going to hold off on that and

all that shit you were talking about me

you were calling me a clown who doesn't

like to be laughed at

an absolute bitch and what else well

yeah that's because you were talking

shit about me the leftism today dude but

hold on

i was wait hey calm down hold on

i want to explain things from my

perspective

all right so when i messaged you a few

weeks

ago on twitter you had about as third as

you had about a third the subscribers i

did

okay and i was reaching out to you

because i saw hey this guy looks pretty

cool i want to see what he's about

and initially you seemed interested in

having me on

and that's great and all but then a few

weeks pass and it you know

you're running train through all these

bread tubers and it just seems like all

you're interested in is debating people

so i'm like yeah okay

fuck it you wanna know why well dude let

me finish there's

dozens of people dozens of can i please

finish

go ahead i just please just let me

finish so

you're debating all these people and i

figure fuck it if that's what he wants

then i'm gonna pick a topic that i know

for a fact we disagree on

so i threw that out there i had no prior

knowledge of your drama with the people

that got your twitch shut down

i had i knew absolutely nothing about it

so when you came to me

uh and you said that i had to go through

your community and tell

your basically convince your followers

to have me on

i mean considering like you were like oh

you had you have like

fewer subs than me considering like not

even like three weeks ago you were a

third my size

and now you're sitting here like talking

down to me telling me that i've got to

go through your community and basically

gravel to your fans

in order to have me on when i was trying

to like help you and connect with you in

the first place is very uncomfortable

really really really and that is the

reason why i got upset and reacting to

the way

i traveled why did i go why did i grow

three times in size because i

listened to you three weeks well the

reason why you grew three times in size

is because you went running train

through all the breadths yeah

you you you put a uh magnifying glass on

yourself and it's not all that okay

you are genuinely funny and entertaining

dude and you know how to rouse an

audience okay

so okay let me get this straight even

though i have dozens of people and i'm

gonna call a spade a spade

some of whom i prioritize a thousand

times more than you because i know them

because i actually know who they are

i have no fucking idea who you are you

understand

even though i put them on the back

burner too because by the way i'm in law

school also

and this shit has hit me like a train

this bread tube shit

i don't know where and our growth

it's so crazy to fucking manage this

shit

even though i put them on the back

burner and not a single fucking person

did what you did was feel so scorned and

so

butthurt and so bitter that your fucking

response to that

is hostility well

you're so narcissistic you're so

fucking narcissistic that all the things

that fucking did that you're criticizing

are why we're putting ml on the fucking

map

yeah okay this is pure projection on

your part

let's be real dude like you're you're

but what do i owe you what do i owe you

i don't owe you a fucking thing you're

right

but i'm not the one i'm not the one

who's coming at you

you came at me well because i didn't

want to give you the time of day

because i'm too fucking busy you could

have just said this in the dm

rather than basically telling me to go

grovel before your fans and stuff listen

fellow traveler you sent me a formal

request

to debate me and your explicit reason

for that is this is the only way i get

your attention i have to challenge you

well you got my attention

is this how you want to get my attention

i would have gotten to you eventually i

would have gotten to eventually it's

like i'm gonna forget about you

you could you could you could just i

mean just write back i'm trying to

explain this is all

miscommunication and trying to make

amends with you but

you you fired the first shot by formally

challenging you to a debate and i gave

you my formal professional answer back

you formally challenged me to a debate i

gave you my formal policy and i

reiterated

these are the rules i laid out tonight

why should i have made an exception for

you when you formally challenged

you didn't you didn't you didn't clarify

enough for me because i didn't know the

concepts okay let's read the dm

because right now it just sounds to me

like like i'm gonna be real with you

dude it just sounds to me like you're

just chasing clout and you care more

about building an audience

right you're right keep giving me your

leftist bullshit because you love

failure and you hate success

of course i'm fucking chasing clout you

fucking idiot

i'm putting that shit on the fucking map

first and foremost i'm concerned with

growing yes

it's successful the way you're doing it

look at the way you're doing it dude

look at the kind of community you're

building

i see a lot of fucking toxicity and

giving

it comes out of your community because

of the way that you

the way you convey the message yeah and

and right now right now it's a war

between us

and bread tube and you're taking your

side you sound like sansa

right now well your community is so

tight the fuck up bitch

then why the fuck are you here it

matters because if you're trying to

reach people

you're not going to do it by acting like

a crazy lunatic but i'm doing it anyway

i'm doing it anyway but i'm going

to know how to do that dude you don't

know how to have a straight conversation

and i don't because i don't owe you a

fucking nice conversation you fucking

asshole

and i'm growing anyway so what kind of

advice is that

you think i'm gonna be nice to you not

why so i can set the example that

anybody who wants to come and exactly

i'm gonna i'm gonna be nice to you oh

yeah yeah hey this is how you get

attention from haas

first attack me and then when you come

on and talk to me we're gonna be

friendly and polite is that what you

fucking think the president i'm gonna

set

no left no i'm gonna set a fucking i'm

trying to reign things back

you're not gonna it's not gonna be

successful you're right i

i can see that now yeah uh everybody

record this conversation

it is being recorded keep this on keep

this on the map i

i just want this to be on the record

okay uh i was the one who tried to you

bitch

you bitch the fact that you're on here

now is a fucking act of war

i didn't want to fucking have you on or

debate you about this shit

you forced my fucking hand this is the

attention you sought

and what you're gonna fucking get you

call me names you threaten you want to

make a video to obliterate me

you ask for war you're fucking green

you're fucking green

why do you have such an altitude about

yourself because i've been in this

longer than you probably how long have

you been no you fucking haven't

how long you've been a year and a half

you've been here like what two three

months no i've been public

two or three months nobody maybe you

were like a monkey exactly but now they

do don't they

yeah yeah like i said you ran rough shot

over bread tube yeah

chased the clown yeah you argued with

all the big tubers

that's why i'm bigger than you because

instead of attacking other mls like a

pussy

i go after the big fish that's what i

fucking do you're right

i'm not a bitch who goes after the

fucking up-and-coming streamer

who's doing a minimum of success and

represents something new

i don't go after those type of fish i go

after the big and established ones

you go after other mls just because

they're more successful than you and

you're jealous

dude you were the first time i have ever

addressed or gone after another marxist

leninist and it's

your giant fucking the first time and

the reason it's the first time

the reason it's the first time the

reason it's the first time you're doing

this

is dedicated to addressing bread tube

the rest of it is dedicated and how

successful have you been

how successful have you been do some

self-criticism you've been around for

two years

then why the fuck do you have less

substance not always about the sub

counts dude it's to me it is

to me it is to me it is it is about the

fucking

and larp in the fucking k-mart parking

lot doing your direct action revolution

and i'm your comrade fuck you bitch

you're just like these bread two people

in my fucking eyes you're the same

you are my fucking enemy you are my

enemy

well i'm sorry you think that dude it's

a fact you are my

fucking we we we could have been friends

we will never be

friends you will never be my friend you

will never be my friend

you will never be my friend friends

don't do it

i love how i love that insult fellow

cucker fellow cuck

yeah that's what you are if you're going

to insult me dude

i just please please please please give

what you got give what you got go ahead

i'm just saying if you're going to

insult me yeah then you could at least

come up with one where you're not also

insulting yourself because

if you don't know it or not the

implication behind calling me a fellow

cuck

implies that you two are a cock i called

you photo i would kill her

yeah fellow fellow cop yeah has been i

am a cock

no no no no it doesn't mean you're my

fellow it means that's your name you're

someone's fellow fellow cochlear

to bread cube your bread tube's fellow

cochlear see how words can have

different meanings

if you really if you really you're a

breadcrumb speller

i'm i'm very sorry that you believe that

not i know that

i know that you are bread tube you are

breastfeeding

yes you are you are bread tube i'm the

ml who took on bread tube

and you're the ml who bit me in the

fucking ankle for it just because i

don't want to talk to you about china

right now just because i didn't want to

talk to you about china right now

and i already owed and it's my it's my

on bond

my honor i already promised comrade king

i'm going to debate him about china and

have a friendly discussion

that's already scheduled but you needed

the attention it's all about you

you want it to be treated special right

you you projecting

i'm still dealing with

you don't give a fuck about the movement

oh sure sure sansa is making a fucking

video about me as we speak

um

i'll share it around just because you're

an asshole can you project

go ahead share it around listen i can't

wait for your video please edit it put

all the effort you can in editing it

because i'm just going to go on

i don't even think i need to make the

video anymore just because you're

digging your own grave oh am i just

burying yourself

i don't give a fuck alienating i trust

you i trust

you're not gonna get attracted to the

truth i trust

the truth you're not going to attract

allies you have many cultures i have

allies i have allies you have cultists i

have

i have cultists is that true yeah yeah

dude they all rim your asshole in the

server

uncritically and treat you like a

fucking problem they like me

they like me because i fight for them

against the true enemy

you fight other men for no reason you

fight other animals like a bitch in a

parasite

i took on bread tube of course they like

me for that

of course they like me for the fact that

i took on these big names

you take on other animals your little

hog box misfit your little hug box of

misfit toys

keep insulting my community see how far

it gets you

well i mean frankly if the kind of

people that you're attracting are a

bunch of racists and transphobes

okay like shit look guys it's bread tube

bread tube has been revealed we're all

racists and transphobes and nozzles

are we know

do you remember when i told you guys

it's a branch of bread tube

remember when i told you guys that it's

a branch of bread tube

i told you that now he's deep throating

the mic great oh yeah i am because i'm

gonna

dominate you you know i'll be a little

bitch right and listen you don't even

have a little bitch you're not gonna

speak over me you're not gonna speak

over me

you you called me you called me a little

bitch you don't even have the balls to

fucking forgive me and like put this

shit aside

it takes balls to forgive you so i could

set the precedent that anyone who comes

and attacks me i'm going to be their

friend

and bring them on give him a free cloud

you're getting the attention you asked

for

you're getting the attention that you

asked for you're a fucking wrecker holy

shit

i'm the wrecker guys i'm the wrecker who

fired the first shot though

me or you uh you no really really

you were planning on making a video to

attack me had i not

seen it and pointed it out you would

have already made it

don't worry bro i'm not going to make a

video about it no make it i don't care

now because we're doing this now

but i caught you you were planning on

attacking me in my moment of weakness

you were planning on attacking my moment

of weakness but i'm the record

you're paranoid you're insane okay

let's okay let's bring up the evidence

let's bring up the evidence before he

deletes it bring up the evidence

what fucking evidence hey can someone

download this stream

like seriously don't worry the stream's

not going nowhere everyone's gonna see

yeah yeah keep it up motherfucker

seriously unless they take it down

because i played that song

yeah download the stream keep this shit

up all right

i want everyone to see this good i do

too yeah

i'm like soft edge hey hey infrared

uh hey haas how much can you bench how

much can you bench

330 pounds you well i've never done my

max i only done how many i can do of 10

oh okay uh what can you do of 10 225 oh

not bad dude

you could probably hit around 3 15 320.

so okay

stupid question it's an even match okay

cool what was your favorite

stupid question my chest is probably

bigger than yours

hey hey haz you you're you're such a

badass right

why don't we why don't we settle this in

a cage

no dude come to me if you want to fight

me you actually have to fly over to me

you do the effort and come to me i'm not

getting i'm not

my stimulus coming in dog you roll matt

you box you roll mat dog you want to

fight me one on one is that what you

want

yeah you're such a pathetic pussy you're

such a pathetic pussy look at this

fucking clout hungry pussy

and he wants to fucking do a jake paul

fight dude

first you have to be like jake paul jake

paul and have his subscribers if you

want to fucking fight me

who who the fuck are you why would i

fight you like that's not going to give

me anything

it's not going to get me anything well i

mean

it would show that you're man enough to

step no no you're man enough

if you defend yourself in the face of

your fucking fuck up back in my day

uh yeah men didn't cry and whine like

little 12 year old boys because someone

insulted them on the internet

when did i cry or whine i just called

you a bitch you've been

you've been crying and whining this

entire time my friend have been crying

well you're calm now but it sounds like

you're crying sounds like you've been

crying you've been crying dude you

begged for my forgiveness i'm not giving

it to you bitch

i didn't bathe i didn't beg for your you

you got on your knees and i kicked dirt

on my face

you got on your knees in front of me and

i kicked dirt in your face

yeah why don't we why don't we have that

cage match dude why don't we sit why

would i have a cage match with you

why would i spend my time training and

doing all this shit

for you why would i do that for you

why would i do that i'm a little bitch

right i'm a little pussy you are one

you are in the cage you are in the cage

no i'm not going to settle in the cage

fuck you why would i prefer why would i

spend

time on record he won't fight me no i

will fight you but you have to be the

one to cut to

put the first thing you have to find me

and you know then we can see

oh i have to find you yeah yeah sure

well i can give you actually i can give

you

my general location and the dms you have

to come here and i'll i'll be like yeah

i'll be at the grocery store this time

and no one's going to be around you have

an opportunity to pull up

and you can deal with me however you

feel me fuck that i'm talking in the

cage motherfucker i'm not talking on the

streets

why would i why would i waste my time

you're going to school for law school

i'm not going to let you trap me like

that we're signing waivers in the

fucking case

we're going to get a wretch we're going

to see this shit you think i'm a snitch

we're going to do it you think i'm a

snitch

dude you're in law school so what so i'm

assuming you're going to school to be a

lawyer

no not necessarily i'm not going to walk

up to you and punch you in the middle of

the streets

okay you can walk up to me and you can

say

you can just you don't have to sucker

punch me but you can you know you can

instigate something if you find me

yeah because i defend myself listen

listen listen

physically i will defend myself right

i'm not going to go on a cage with you

for what

for what do i gain from that i have to

gain something

oh you want me to put up money i'll i'll

match you i'll match you two grand

two grand is not enough for me oh how

much is enough for you

to do that 10k yeah 10k how much how's

how much is enough for the great has you

have to understand

i'm not i can't afford to go to law

school like you i don't have that keep

crying keep crying keep crying like i

give a fuck

you think i give a fuck all right well

tell you what why don't we why don't we

talk about

china all right okay finally i want to

get to china

well let's talk about china by the way

let me lay out the rules

if i speak and you interrupt me you get

muted no one's going to hear you

how do you how do you like that oh

so yeah all right you get to interrupt

me an infinite number of times got it if

i

if i can complete the sentence and i

know what you're gonna say i'm probably

gonna interrupt you

because i don't want my time wasted

remember you're on my stream

but you can prove you can prove that i

interrupted you and you were actually

going to make a point

that i didn't predict and then i look

stupid well

so there's that but i usually know what

kind of point you're going to make

well let me pose a question yeah all

right let me start by posing a question

yeah what what do you define as

socialist

[Laughter]

dude it's the freaking first thing you

said do you not know who i am

you're the great has you don't know who

i am that's the first thing you're gonna

say

didn't i tell you guys this how it's

gonna go but i prepared for this one

you didn't take me by surprise if that's

what your question is but

i i just want to congratulate i thought

you were going to be more creative i

just thought you were going to be more

creative

so you wanted to challenge me but you

didn't do any homework on me you just

liked my clout

you didn't care about no no no dude

because

the thing is you were debating this one

person and you said

socialism isn't worker ownership of the

means of production

you have a different definition for me

so i want to know what your definition

of socialism

to me my definition of socialism is

based on

how it has been used historically

concretely

which is how where do you want to start

in the 19th century well just give me a

definition

and we can run with it you give me your

definition i can

give you mine and then we can talk no no

but i know your definition because i

watched your video on the ussr you have

five points

you define social media yeah i have five

characteristics but we can

shut up shut up shut up shut up i know

your five characteristics

we can go through one through five and i

can prove to you that even based on your

own definition

you cannot sustain the view that china

is a socialist but we're not gonna get

there yet

we're not gonna get there yet first and

foremost i want to establish

this notion that you can pull socialism

you can establish the premises of what

the definition of socialism is

even though that word has meaning for

over a billion of chinese people

in a unique way but you're saying

they're all wrong it's false socialism

you have the correct socialism right

because you have the right definition

derived

let me ask you a question materialistic

question where do definitions come from

are they based on definitions defined in

reality itself

or are they based on things you pull out

of your ass and create five points by

the way why five why not six and seven

or eight why five well because i was

just giving a general list of guidelines

based on my reading

okay okay but you're reading you're

reading you don't know anything what

you're talking about though

why five why not some of those should

have been combined too by the way

there's no reason there was five why

five yeah it's an arbitrary number

i was trying i was just simply trying to

lay out a list of guidelines to define

my terms all right

we can simplify it more than that but i

just want i just want us to agree on it

i will define socialism for you ready

a mode of production

that explicitly

is defined

by the social ends by social ends

simple

emotive production mode of production

which production is defined whose mode i

should say is defined by social ends

a mode of production whose mode is

defined by social ends

simple all right

is that obscurantist in word salad yeah

uh incredibly a mode of production whose

mode is defined by social ends

you had five points of word salad i had

a simple

two-bit sentence i had clear cut we're

gonna go through them we're gonna go

through them right now right now we're

gonna

can we can we can we can you know

explain to me what the social ends are

what what social energy it doesn't

matter what they are

they are social ends no it doesn't they

are social ends

that's it okay okay where does mark's

establish the content of those social

media if we can't reach

like a common definition that we can

agree upon i don't see a point

we're not going to that's the whole

point because we're not going to if

if we can't have an agreed concrete

definition of what socialism is

then you can just say china's here we go

with concrete definitions

i'm a man of science i'm concerned

you're not a man of science you're a man

of bullshit

you're a fucking larper you're not a man

of science shut the fuck up all right

all right whatever what does marx

establish as the social ends

do you know that all right what are the

why don't you just tell me what the

social ends are are you talking about

dude

it's in the fucking name the social ends

are just

social ends no there is no predefined

content of what those social lines will

happen to be

because those social ends will differ

across time and place

you can't fucking the social ends for

example will differ

in 1930s ussr as compared to what 1870s

europe they will differ across time and

place

right uh it just matters that the ends

are social

all right well do you know what

capitalism is do you think capitalism is

based on social ends

any kind capitalism is an economic

system based on the private ownership of

the means of production

money markets and generalized commodity

production

it emerged in the early 18th century

and is as it becomes more advanced

uh starts to look more and more like

socialism okay okay

companies go okay okay corporations

capital capital

capital listen you can't just you can't

just establish

you're wasting my time it's because

you're wasting my time i'm simplifying

it

dude you can't just cut me off and enter

okay finish your point finish your point

like the other guy

please waste my time finish your point

go ahead all i was trying to do

was clarify what capitalism was and go

on to differentiate that

everyone's so excited when i hear you

talk please clarify

all right so i'm gonna go ahead and give

you

my definition of socialism one sentence

here we go

all right ace a economic mode

characterized

an economic mode characterized by the

social or

common ownership of the means of

production

guided by a general economic plan

drafted

preferably democratically as possible

and

salad working towards the abolition of

commodity production

and that's the biggest piece of bullshit

word salad whatsoever

saint simon didn't say shit about

fucking uh commodity production

none of the socialists in the 19th

century who actually were responsible

for the genesis of the word

didn't speak about all this shit you're

talking about the only way you can

simplify the meaning of socialism

across every single use in which it has

been given meaning

is simple a mode of production in which

the mode is defined by social ends

that's how you encompass the diversity

of the meanings given to the word

but i that's even then it's fucking

reductive why are we

i thought we were marxist dude why are

we going off saint simone's definition

marx did not invent his own socialism

no he called himself a communist to

differentiate himself marx but yes but

marx called

communism marvel spoke of communism

as an actual reality not he didn't

create his own

he spoke of it as something objective in

reality

but but here's the thing all right buddy

um even if you go back to the

i want to ask you a question where does

marx talk about abolishing commodity

production

we'll we'll we'll get to that no get to

a knife where does he do it no no no

let me he doesn't do it anywhere not

anywhere

he never speaks of abolishing it

anywhere

let me get to the utopians and then

we'll talk about that

all right even the utopians had a

general idea

about distribution according to need

what is a commodity

it is a good that is being brought to a

market for the purpose of being sold

[Music]

you're a fucking child dude no sorry

what

sorry what you're talking about the

history of utopian socialism even

there's no fucking reason to do that

because i'm trying to get this fucking

conversation along it is boring the shit

out of me

well how how is it how is it abortion

it's not specific enough

just say for social ends and that will

encompass everything

that'll literally encompass everything

just say for social ends you mean

but that's so nebulous i want i want

concrete definition there's

yours is not concrete yours is a bunch

of eluvian

you said earlier like that you talked

about the social ends meaning literally

fucking anything

no it means social ends it means ends

which are social

rather than for example anti-social and

just based on abstraction which is what

money is

do you not know what capitalism is

capitalism is mcm

the end of the circuit is just more

money what is more money according to

marx

money is alienated human ability what is

this alienated human ability it is

purely abstract

purely abstractly alienated human

ability that is not repurposed in a

determinate way

it's not determinate it's alienated it's

just abstract

it follows english lockheed metaphysics

all of that shit is related

it's liberalism rights for its own sake

rights for its own sake money for its

own sake that's what it is dude

we're all talking about the same thing

here i know and when i look at china's

economy i see a lot more of that

behavior resembled than i do

but there isn't precisely none of that

behavior

there's specifically none of that

behavior

what are you talking about dude there

they have stock markets they have a

capital yes they do

yes they do but there is no money for

money's own sake

the own profit in china does not mean

what it meant in the 19th century

profit in china is a is an extension of

economic planning

it's an in-depth it's a measure of the

profitability

or of the success or failure of an

enterprise and by the way

that was also the measure that the

soviet union had to use

and china before dengs reforms had to

use they had to deal with this

issue do you not realize that profit

is not just about accumulating money for

its own sake but is an

actual indication it's it's an indi

it's an indication of whether you are

gaining more than you are putting in

yeah it's a simple indication of that

but but yeah and within the soviet union

profits had no bearing on the success

the necessarily the success in china

it's the same thing

china's the same thing if china wants to

keep a company afloat

despite that it's going bankrupt it will

if china wants to destroy an industry or

a company despite that it's doing

successful

it will and it has yeah but but you also

have to look at the way they

uh behave as well because okay how do

they behave go ahead fellow traveler

well for one you have capitalists in

them

and shareholders that make billions of

fucking dollars

wait wait this little thing about

billionaires reaping massive fucking

profits

you don't know what money is dude

another thing

no no no no no i'm gonna go on that

point i want to just go on another thing

not another thing i'm gonna mute you

we're gonna address that point not that

enough

okay first we're gonna address this

point regarding this business of

capitalists

again in china

there's a capitalist class no no but you

can't say that there's a capitalist

class

you can't say that yeah the traditional

marxist sense you can't

the billionaires in china is a

misleading word

billionaire are they not capitalists

because if they liquidate their shares

all their value is lost it's just that

they own listen you can critique that

and in china there's a discussion and

critique going on

not everything in china by the way

chinese marxists do not justify

everything that exists in china

there's things that they have

discussions about and they do discuss

but as far as billionaires in china are

concerned it's because

they have a majority of shares but they

are not free to do what they want

with those shares they're controlled

heavily by the government

that's why jack ma said when you make

more than 10 million

rmb whatever the currency is you no

longer are accumulating wealth you're

accumulating pressure

the party is on your fucking back the

government is on your fucking back

everything you do is controlled okay

it's not like what you're saying there's

like a there's like a capitals class and

it's not like that dude it's just not

okay

well you can have a well a well

established

strong firm grip on the way your

capitalist

market economy functions and it would

still be

capitalized but you can't no no but you

cannot you cannot call it capitalism you

are literally saying

socialism is when the government does

stuff when did i say that what you're

saying when did i say that exactly

i said in china the government says that

the state has their fucking

dick in everyone's business but the

reason i said that is because in china

ultimately ultimately everything serves

social ends uh

so what about them suicide nets do those

serve social ends

first of all as far as i'm as far as i

know

as far as i know please get you get rid

of your feedback

as far as i know that was a taiwanese

company

okay but even then maybe there was a

horrendous

workplace culture within china actually

chinese people are now debating and

discussing and critiquing the 996

workplace culture

that's completely fine but just because

china's workplace culture and by the way

the only people who have a right to

critique it

are chinese people by the way but even

if that's the case

that does not alone negate the

legitimacy

of chinese socialism as socialism there

are problems in socialism

and by the way what you're talking about

is cultural

the idea that socialism can be reduced

to culture which is what you do because

you wear a mao hat and you're a larper

so

obviously that's what you think but

socialism isn't reducible to culture

ultimately socialism is about the

objective

material relations and forces of

production okay

what that looks like in terms of culture

is an open struggle it's an open

discussion

and nothing's gonna automatically solve

that i'm

i'm not i'm not concerned with the

culture i'm concerned with the way the

economy actually operates

how does it operate at the end at the

end of the day

let me ask you a question so in order to

have a thriving

economy within the context of capitalism

you need to some extent

have a thriving capitalist class which

china does they're number two in the

world for a number of billionaires

that's okay

you just mentioned that they're

billionaires you didn't necessarily

establish that there's a ruling

capitalist class within china

in order to establish there's a ruling

capitalist class within china

and you have to establish you have to

establish how

their rule comes at the expense of the

chinese dude let me

fucking talk holy shit please talk but

anyways

uh as i was saying the the fact that

they're

even billionaires the fact that there

are landlords the fact that you have

people profits hearing like this the way

that they do

implicates to some extent that the

chinese

government has to accommodate them and

their business interests

on some level so yeah no there are

definitely proletarian elements within

the ccp

there's more ideological diversity in

the ccp than the republican and

democratic parties combined

but there but the thing is is that

no there's never been a country that's

been able to do to truly go from

reform its way from a capitalist economy

to a socialist economy

all right it's never been done china

does it i've got to see it to believe it

if china does it you are mistaken the

meaning of

first of all there's a few things i have

to address there's a few things i have

to address the first thing is that

there may be profit and all this kind of

stuff within china and by the way

it's really really misleading to say

that there's landlords because

the government in china owns all land

the only

exception let me speak i let you fucking

speak

shut your fucking mouth the only the

only exception that's been made to that

recently

is that individual apartment units can

be privately owned

as far as i read in the chinese property

law but the government owns

all land technically speaking okay when

you're saying there is a landlord and

there's a capitalist class

i don't want to get into the semantics

but in order for you to establish that

this is the ruling class

you have to establish that the chinese

state accommodates them in such a way

that comes at the expense of the people

but the numbers show as we can see that

the rule

of the ccp and these reforms

corresponded

to the rising of the chinese people's

living standards and now with this

poverty

alleviation program all things by the

way

which have come at the expense of the

capitalist class in no way can you

establish

the capital you shut the fuck up and let

me finish all right i agree

i let you finish so you have to let me

finish you're throwing a million things

in there you want me to meet you

want me to meet you i let you finish you

let me finish

i'm going to mutually ladies fucking

games with me i'm trying to address you

you need to let me finish first

write it down if you're gonna forget you

need to let me finish first

you need to let me finish first you have

to establish

that if there's a ruling capitalist

class in china

that the state rules on behalf of their

private interest

but you cannot establish that because

time and time again

it's being proven especially with this

whole jack ma business

a lot of people used to say that the new

ruling class in china were these tech

people like jack ma and that

but you it's proven proven the chinese

state clamped down on them too

and no there is no capitalist class in

china

that that whose interests are uncond who

rule

as their private interest as the state

that's the first thing

the second thing the second thing

regarding reformism

you're mistakening political reformism

okay with the gradual economic

transformation

that corresponds to what socialism and

communism is neither marx nor any angles

put forward the idea

that capitalism is just going to

disappear overnight

okay it's laid out quite plainly in the

communist manifesto

it's laid out quite plainly across the

body of work of marx and angles that

following the proletarian dictatorship

and it's not reformism by the way

because reformism is political

not economic economically speaking the

material relations and forces of

production

change at a pace and at a scale that is

different from the political

pace okay politics yes you can conquer

the state in a week or something like

lenin said right

material relations of production because

they're objective and they're not based

on our subjective stance in any kind of

way

the scale at which those transform is

beyond the purview of individuality

you're a western individualist cultural

revolution larper

and so you think that socialism arrives

at a scale

uh at a scale accessible and within the

phenomenal purview

of your individual point of view if i

can't grasp it individually

then it's not socialism socialism is

is happening in china there is a

fundamental transformation

occurring in china there is a

dissolution of the fundamental

contradictions that give rise to

commodity production

that's happening in china it's just

happening at its scale of time

that is beyond individual lifespans that

is beyond individual

experience and this individualism of

yours is uniquely western because all

asian societies recognize

that real change real being

real transformation is beyond the

individual but you're an individualist

cartesian that's the problem go ahead

all right so there's quite a bit that

you set here so i just

did a couple quick bullet points i'd

like to talk about

increasing living standards uh dangests

love to bring this up all the time

so let's go ahead and tackle that yes

industrialization modernization and

advancing science and technology

has the general consequence of improving

the general levels of

wealth and money well just general

levels of wealth in society that is

indeed true

capitalism can in fact do that and

seeing the

import of capital coming in from the

west china opening up to the west and

inviting all these foreign corporations

in you have seen

the very rapid growth in proletariat

proletarianization and modernization of

china

you've also seen the unequal

modernization of china as

as i've stated before uh they're number

two in the world for a number of

billionaires

so keep that in mind as for the whole

thing on landlords not owning the land

i get that the chinese government

actually owns the land

but the thing is is that they're leasing

it out for a really really really really

really really

really long time to the landlords and

the landlords are still there

profits hearing off but they might pay a

land tax the chinese system is i'm

i mean it sounds gorgeous to me but i'm

not sure um

as for the whole thing on chinese

capitalists have no power

just to let you know haas there's

lobbying that goes on in the ccp

all business and all law that's like

done

is within the context of the ccp it's

all done within the context of the ccp

so if you've got like liberal interests

and like private interests

working within the ccp then that

implicates that

on some level they must be compromised

91 million people in the party

not all of them are actually

ideologically committed continents

and lastly uh as for this transition

from socialism to communism

i mean that's even implying they were so

they're socialist in the first place i

mean i'm willing to argue they were

socialist under mao

but then like after the after

the passing of mao and the gang of four

and the uh

in the opening up to the west i mean

what what dang

he fucking smashed uh he smashed the

iron or ice bowl he broke up the

communes

he invited a bunch of foreign

corporations over to exploit chinese

workers

he uh he yeah he liberalized and he put

a knife in the back of the soviet union

the world's number one socialist

superpower at the time

so yeah no the chinese totally betrayed

international solidarity and

fucked over the movement for their own

national chauvinism and

you know for their own personal

interests so

yeah i mean i don't really have anything

else to say besides that

okay one through five first point about

increasing living standards you're

attributing this just to modernization

and capitalism and industrialization

that might make sense if the only

increase in the standard of living

was the brief period of the rise uh the

initial burst and shock

of uh opening up a foreign capital

whatever you're talking about with deng

but it's clear that the chinese

government has made it its consistent

policy

to steer the development of china in a

way that is in the favor

of the of the majority of chinese people

it's not an it cannot

explain anything if you just say it's

the random

spontaneous anarchy of the market that

corresponds to modernization

which is what happened in the 19th

century so this is not enough to explain

the tremendous rise in the standard of

living the chinese people

it even does a worse job in explaining

the recent program

of dange of uh xi jinping's poverty

alleviation programs

that could possibly be explained it's

always just the consequence of

modernization that doesn't make any

sense whatsoever the modernization has

happened

for decades okay at a certain point

after modernization it reaches a certain

threshold in which people's

living standards stop being

substantially improved

now in the west the only reason the

people's living standards went up is for

a combination of factors the soviet

union the trade union movement and all

that kind of stuff

the political class struggle and the

economic class struggle

in china there has been a consistent

improvement and rise in the st

people's standard of living so as to

prevent widespread

popularization the type of

popularization that does correspond

to proletarianization furthermore you

the accusation of proletarianization is

dubious

and there's a few reasons for this there

is a phenomena of uh the who kos system

and migrants coming from the country

going into the cities

but those people still have land back in

the countryside as their social safety

net

now the xi jinping era has actually

precisely corresponded to the growth

of a new middle class which is no longer

no longer tied down strictly to

agricultural land but is now being given

and housed

in new forms of housing this is in

essence what the poverty alleviation

program is

so there has never been actually in

china

the type of popularization and

proletarianization that occurred in the

19th century

because two reasons like i already

mentioned

the ownership of land in the countryside

which is a social safety net that didn't

happen in england in

europe they were kicked out of the land

and they had fucking nothing

they were living on the streets with

nothing to nothing to support them

two there's a newfound effort to create

a new social safety net

so proletarianization has been precisely

avoided in china

regarding wealth inequality it's an

issue that is being brought up within

china itself

within the party itself and it's being

discussed among the chinese people

itself

now wealth inequality may be an

indication

of something bad or something um

indicating something bad that's up to

the chinese people

but it does not tell us anything about

whether china can be meaningfully called

socialist or not wealth inequality

does not is not a way to define

fundamental relations

and forces of production it's just not

it's about

how by the way what wealth is in china

is how much money you have how much

assets you own things

owned in print and quotation marks

because nobody actually really owns

anything in china in the classical

liberal uh

sense uh ownership is heavily

heavily oriented toward the obligation

and duty to fulfill social aims

so there's no blank check type of

ownership and i know people could say

well it's like that in america too

yeah but on in china it's completely

different than in uh even

then in america it's not simply that you

can own things but you also have to pay

taxes and there's regulation stuff

all forms of ownership in china

ultimately are

forced to whether directly or indirectly

serve the purpose of some kind of

established social lens

number two regarding this whole thing is

about landlords

and they have to lease it out for a long

time that's not really my point

the whole point is that when you're

meaningfully speaking of a landlord

class

if all land in china is owned by the

government what that means is that at

any given time

they can be dispossessed of that land if

they're not using it in a way that

serves social

ends the government ultimately owns all

land means

all land must serve the purpose of

benefiting the whole people

so to say that there's a landlord class

in the same way that there was before

is extremely misleading okay yes there's

people who rent out of

apartments and properties and all that

kind of stuff to other people

that does exist in china um

but to say that you know that's the

exact same thing as a landlord class

it's pretty misleading

uh and it does by the way that doesn't

also tell us and if it doesn't address

the fundamental point about

how is it that it can be said that the

government the state

supports the interests of landlords over

the at the expense of the people in the

ultimate and final sense

regarding chinese capital well you have

to let me finish actually

regarding chinese capitalists uh having

no power and the fact there's a lobbying

within the cfcp

there's all sorts of factions that

happen within the ccp

but what defines whether china is

socialist or whether it has a capitalist

ruling class

is if those interests can ultimately

preponderate in actually

defining the ccp's ultimate policies but

what we've seen is the consistent track

record of history

is that the party the chinese communist

party

to use the leninist phrase bends the

stick straight

they keep a straight line they keep

focused on their ultimate aim

of developing the forces of production

and benefiting the whole people

and those elements you're talking about

ultimately never succeed in gaining

hegemony

now they do exist there's liberal

elements in the party

and there's also leftist elements within

the party the party is fundamentally

centrist in the bolshevik sense though

okay it balances all the different kinds

of interests it never gives way or

let's allows one interest to hold sway

and

this is in this is in keeping with the

confucian

type of whatever values that are

espoused in china

uh now regarding this thing they weren't

socialists in the first place and they

were only socials on their mouth this is

actually completely arbitrary

it cannot be meaningfully said that

china ceased to be socialist

because deng got rid of the people's

communes

because as marx put on i can read the

passage of marx

right now socialism or communism is not

actually defined

by some type of determinant site in

which there's a collective ownership you

want me to read the

i can actually read out the thing from

marx

right now you see the issue i'm gonna

read it i'm going to read it out

man i know where it's from yes i do know

where it's from uh the thing for marx

yeah yeah private property and communism

you can pull it up and read it yourself

um let's see

i know what i'm looking for it's right

here

um it's right here

okay the entire movement of history is

therefore both the actual act of

creation of communism

the birth of its empirical existence and

for its thinking consciousness the

comprehended and known movement of its

becoming

whereas the other communism which is not

yet fully developed

seeks in isolated historical forms

opposed to private property

ergo in this case the communes a

historical proof for

itself a proof drawn from that already

exists

by wretching isolated moments from their

proper places

in the process of development a hobby

horse quebec

villager dell particularly like to ride

and advancing them as proofs of its

historical pedigree

but all it succeeds in showing is that

be far greater part of this development

contradicts its assertions

and that if it did not once exist then

the very fact that it existed in the

past refutes the claims to essential

being

marx's pretty much point here is that

communism cannot be thought of

as being uh only uh being at this site

of

you know there's some commune or some

type of you know

isolated moment or some type of isolated

historical form

communism has to be taken from a more

holistic perspective

which can't just say oh they got rid of

the communes

or they got rid of the cold causes

something like that and therefore it's

not communism

this again is committing the error marx

is talking about communism isn't just

about this

it's about what is common that's

relevant to communism

is at a high this is a very hard text to

comprehend but i think this paragraph in

particular

addresses the specific point that the

smashing of the communes the getting rid

of the

uh rice bowl and the communes is proof

that socialism collapsed it's just not

true because socialism isn't reducible

to those

now regarding this business about

inviting foreign corporations

you simply do not understand how trade

wars

of the modern era happen western

moralists actually are the ones who

think

that foreign corporations are exploit go

and exploit people all the time in other

countries

this isn't the main way exploitation

actually happens because

uh what those this is gonna sound like

i'm a conservative or i'm a right winger

but this is the plain face

fact of the era of trade wars the people

who benefit

are the ones who are industrializing

themselves not just because it's

providing steady jobs

but because china is establishing the

for reproductive forces

meanwhile in the united states there was

a de-industrialization that was

happening at the same time

who was benefiting you know the

america's economy and its people

were going through a

de-industrialization precisely because

they were not

being quote unquote exploited like how

you're saying

so you are simply very ignorant about

the era of trade wars and i know you're

gonna twist my words be like

oh so you're basically saying that all

this uh sweatshops and stuff is good and

it's not what i'm saying i'm just trying

to say that your

narrow view of how uh true economic

predatory whatever things work it's very

outdated and

very western-centric too because you

have this western moralistic view

and china's laughing its way to the bank

at you for it

um now regarding this betrayal this

geopolitics of uh

the betrayal of the soviet union this is

a more difficult

issue and a more complicated topic and

i'm going to talk about it with comrade

king

but all i can say is that cha the the

one who started this

and the one who was actually more

aggressive on this point i would argue

was mao under mao there was a real and

distinct possibility that there was

going to be an

all-out war between the soviet union and

china

soviet officials were anticipating an uh

an

invasion of mass chinese infantry into

the soviet union under mao at the height

of the cultural revolution

deng's people actually represented these

soviet-created

and soviet-backed chinese institutions

who built up the most initial form of

chinese socialism before mao introduced

the uniquely

uh chinese one if anything dengs people

were a little bit

more soft on the soviet union than mao

it you can't forget that the

reproachment with the united states

began

under mao when he met with nixon so if

this is some kind of proof that china

isn't socialist

you can't meaningfully say it was

socialist under mao either

because the one who began their

approachment with the soviet union okay

it's your turn go ahead

all right all right so

i want to try and narrow down the number

of topics that we

are talking about because i feel like

the longer that we talk

the longer i talk and clarify my points

the more you counter and there's just

more things for me to have to address so

i'm gonna have

i'm gonna try to narrow this all down as

quickly as i possibly can and

reply to what i've made bullet points of

all right so and concerning their

their growth uh what was it you said

about their growth again that it was

very quickly it wasn't just

industrialization it was just what the

power of

chinese socialism or whatever just the

build-up of productive forces

what do you mean you were talking about

the only reason there was an increase

for china's

standard of living was the fact that

there was just an initial type of

modernization

well i mean i i argue that it's

really just industrialization

modernization

you know it's not science it's a

bullshit

well i mean yeah the direct

material mode of production tends

to effectively address my argument are

you gonna adjust my argument that i made

though that at a certain threshold

that benefit is exhausted and there's a

widespread properization that didn't

happen in china

and that you couldn't possibly explain

the growth and the standard of living

that actually

happened across chinese history since

then reform on opening up

strictly on the basis of some type of

spawn that this was actually directed

and focused and planned by the chinese

government the modernization that

happened

it wasn't just the inevitable result of

uh capitalist modernization

so yeah yeah i know i know uh the billy

the hundreds of millions of chinese

people went

from living on two dollars a day to four

dollars a day

i know massive improvement well you know

what there has been a substantial impact

do you want to deny that or we can get

into that do you want to deny that

well okay so the reason why china's

economy has grown as quickly as it

has is because they have massive massive

uh reserves of untapped labor

so does india they have room to grow and

they will grow for decades to come you

think india

you think india can grow as quickly as

china did and it's going to be like that

i mean india is going to grow rather

quickly maybe not as fast as china

public because their political apparatus

isn't as efficient as theirs

and you think india and you think

india's people will

aren't gonna go through this

popularization uh

aren't gonna go through any type of

widespread popularization and anarchy of

production

uh they they probably they probably will

actually um when there was a global

reason

the reason why china has an experienced

business cycles

is because they have all these markets

to tap into they have markets in the

united states they have markets

to in all in south america they have

markets literally everywhere

where they can undercut local production

and sell off their cheap consumer goods

why can't america do that that didn't

save america in 2008 china never

experienced a crisis to this day

because nobody in america wants to work

in a factory for 70 hours

a week getting paid like a dollar you

just said that the reason china doesn't

go through the boom and bust cycles is

because

it's it's a it's an it's a globalized

world but it's a globalized world for

everybody that's not an adequate excuse

well yeah well yeah because uh the rate

of exploitation is is so much

higher in china i mean why i thought it

was outside of china that we're talking

about why is it within china that

there's a diversity of markets you just

mentioned that china goes to other

countries and sells it's cheaper

they they export it's not just in in

it's not just within

so only china has cheap labor that's why

china didn't go through a crisis because

it has cheap labor well

cheaper cheap it's cheaper to pay

someone like pennies an hour in china to

produce shoes rather than something

cheaper in africa and india too it's

cheaper elsewhere

it's actually cheaper other places now

than in china

and they did they can't avoid these

crisis the crisis has hit them hard too

yeah yeah and believe it or not china

suffers recessions as well i believe

they had one in 2014

in 2008 the global market got fucked but

whatever recessions china has are

immediately offset by the state

unlike united states yeah like i said

they have a very

they have a very well organized tightly

knit

well lubricated centralized political so

you would deny that there's an

are you gonna say there's an anarchy of

production in china

i mean to an extent there is but chinese

government

i mean you're gonna have business cycles

within a market economy

they're trying to say that's an anarchy

of production though

well

well here's the thing um there is

in our well they're producing

commodities right they have their

commodity production they're producing

towards profit all right they're

producing these are not producing trans

profits

let me let me let me create a

hypothetical situation a fairly

realistic but not that realistic

hypothetical situation

all right so let's say america

reindustrialized and we started

producing all of our own stuff

all right only with socialism can you do

that

okay well let's say america does all

right

we start producing sure uh we start

producing all of our own stuff again

okay and we start becoming an exporter

okay do you realize like

that would actually fuck the chinese

economy because of how much they rely

on importing to us like how much stuff

they produce for us all the cheap

consumer goods

do you realize like that would fuck them

and cause a recession

and immediately but that's why china

wants to create a new global order where

countries and economies coordinate their

activities so that there's the best

possible outcome for everyone and it's a

fair balance

yeah but at the end of the day the fact

that the business cycle in the first

place and that they depend

on exporting cheap consumer goods to

other countries in order for their

economic prosperity kind of you don't

think that socialist countries in the

20th century exported

cheap goods to countries to stay away

yeah no they exported commodities don't

get me wrong

but they didn't depend on the commodity

production all right

it wasn't use value in pursuit of

exchange value it wasn't generalized

commodity production well you're

you're just your view is just very

narrow because it appears like it's for

exchange value in china

but it all goes toward determinate ends

such as infrastructure

in no meaningful sense can you say it's

just for profit

because china the economic rash

ultimate economic rationality and logic

that drives the chinese economy is

ultimately based on ends established by

the state

it's not just based on profit because

profits are

limited sometimes and profits are also

um

tolerated sometimes the only meaningful

consistent threat of reason and

rationality behind it

is whether it serves social ends

china's debt it produces infrastructure

it it goes into debt to produce

infrastructure for example

there's no immediate gain on

profitability with those kinds of

ventures whatsoever

yeah we're dealing with something that

is necessarily outside of mcm

you need to go outside of the mcm to

explain china

now mgcm don't be wrong is still an epic

cycle

but there's no but marx and engels

describe the transformation

from capitalism to socialism not as a

complete

uh whole outright abolition or negation

but as an uh

a gradual transformation what they

didn't think was gradual was the

political revolution

but the politics and the economy are two

different things

let me let me get a word in all right so

nordic countries too sink a great deal

of money into their infrastructure

uh are they now socialist countries

because of it

no i don't think so because nordic

countries

they might spend money on infrastructure

but it is nowhere at the level of scale

in terms of being a fundamental

component of it i mean plenty of

countries spend money on infrastructure

that's not only china

what i'm trying to say is that the

chinese economy cannot be explained

ultimately purely in terms of mcm

the nordic economies ultimately become

are a part of the american

financial great chain of being so

ultimately yes

ultimately the nordic countries are

sacrificing

their people for the golden caliph calf

sorry there's just more stages

uh in between that that do correspond to

some type of welfare state and building

of infrastructure

it's not based on the form

it's based on where it ends where the

cycle ends

in china the cycle ends for the people

with the american-led world order the

cycle ends

for the enrichment of the oligarchy now

along that cycle there may be benefit

benefits involved for the improvement of

the people and all that kind of stuff

but the ultimate rationality driving it

is profit still

thank you for uh thank you for verifying

that

profits are still in command so there's

not in china though but not in china

but let me let me there's an article i

want to send you and this is an article

that i was actually saving

when i was preparing for the debate uh

earlier um

okay so it's called how reform has made

china's state-owned enterprises stronger

let me ask you is the world economic

forum an imperialist source

for this is it an imperialist i never

dismiss sources because of their origin

i dismiss them because

so so hear this uh everything

that i have seen in terms of uh evidence

that china is

in the process of transitioning to

socialism has

actually been in the opposite direction

so here are some points from the article

china is privatizing gradually by

reforming state-owned enterprises into

modern competitive businesses by the way

i know what you're talking about

can i just talk about mergers and

privatizations of small enterprises has

consolidated the number of seo

i know i know so so in in lieu of this

evidence in light of this yeah how do

you reconcile the fact

that uh they're actually trending more

towards that's a great question

great question great question um the

problem with you

is that you don't think dialectically i

know it's gonna sound like it's a

curveball but hear me out you think that

an apparent privatization which is

repeating by the way the same logic of

dense privatization

means that the ccp is letting loose its

control

and ultimately allowing for interests

and ends to be established beyond its

own

but actually when you think

dialectically you realize

and this is actually factually true

every single privatization that occurs

in china and the state laxi control

also corresponds to a deepening of that

control

so you have to understand the

dialectical logic that preponderates in

chinese marxism

letting go is also the same as taking

control in a new and more fundamental

way

every particularization of the economy

corresponds to an increased abstraction

of the party's rule

now that sounds like a bunch of

gibberish but now let's pull up this

article that i have

myself ready at hand ccp announces plan

to take control of

china's private sector could you send it

to me

sure it's right here in the discord i'll

send it right here in the uh

could you could you do that i'll have it

to you right here

you see china is engaging in a new

privatization but it's also

consolidating the manner by which it is

able to exert

control and influence over these

companies to ensure

that they fulfill social ends that's why

china's private

privatization follows a logic of a type

of decentralization

and there's a dialectic of

decentralization and centralization

decentralization allows the latent

material forces in

actual reality to express themselves

outside of the subjectivism of state

control while also allowing the state

control to become more attuned to those

forces

and then ultimately orient those forces

towards ends established by it

that's the nature and it's perfectly in

tune

with china the marxist uh

materialist dialectic that is unique to

chinese marxism

is this the thing that i heard about

where they're just gonna

have a ccp official um that's on the

board of every single private business

in the country

because i think i might have read it

it's more than that too it's not just

that there's more to it than that i

recommend you read the article

it there's more than a hundred measures

okay it's nice to better focus the

wisdom and strength

of the private business people on the

goal and mission to realize the great

rejuvenation of

chinese of the chinese nation uh xi's

instructions were issued ahead of a

conference today on this very topic

the party wants to see a united front

between private enterprise and

government business

doesn't this class collaborationist line

kind of bother you

no it's not cl it's not class

collaboration it's not that they're

they want they want they want these

private business owners to collaborate

with the state

towards a common goal and yeah i'm

telling you

i mean you wanna i mean if you agree

with it fine but just no it's not that i

agree with it it's that

the example you gave of an increased

privatization

also corresponds to an even greater

degree of control exercise by the party

that it didn't have before

over private business so it's a

dialectic is all i'm trying to say

you're talking about class collaboration

but actually class collaboration is only

meaningful

in the sense of the actual psy political

class struggle

class collaboration for example means

sacrificing the proletarian class

struggle

in favor of compromising with liberal

and reformist whatever elements or the

the big bourgeoisie

in the case of china's governments

chinese marxists

would argue with you that there cannot

be meaningful there cannot be said to be

a

meaningfully distinct capitalist class

within china and now intuitively this

doesn't make sense to us because we know

that there's business owners in china

and there's um people making profits and

money in china

but in the technical sense of the word

class

at least as laid out by marx in the

technical sense

there the chinese marxists would say

there's no class antagonism within china

there is no class division it's still a

proletarian

dictatorship and i know this is going to

sound politically correct but again i

have yet to see a convincing argument

from your camp

that persuasively and consistently

refutes it

chinese marxists would argue that the

people you're calling a distinct

capitalist class are just part of the

chinese people

making money in some kind of way and by

the way they're private owners

but perfect i'm not concerned but you

also have to admit for example it's so

ambiguous because

in the countryside before the recent

reforms that are giving people

apartments to own and mass the chinese

masses

are going to own let me speak let me

speak well

let me speak let me speak the small and

intensive agriculture

that was opened up to the deng's report

reforms that corresponded to the

grand majority of the chinese

countryside um

they were also capitalists by your same

definition

all the chinese people are capitalists

they're they're not capitalists for

owning private plots of land or their

peasants there's a difference no there's

no no no but they're

but they're selling their produce on the

market and making a profit

their privates their private plots

they're subsistence farmers

all right it's not only subsistence they

also sell but they also sell

you know they gained they gained you're

wrong

you're wrong dude you're wrong

it wasn't purely based on subsistence

they gained more money from doing it it

wasn't

really based on subsistence okay so

i'd love to keep talking to you but it's

pretty clear to me that you're going to

hog like

eighty percent of the mic time and every

time i try to enter

into my show challenging your points

you're just gonna shout me down

i almost don't see a point i didn't let

you speak and make your point but uh

is that all yeah yeah yeah but like okay

you just run your mouth dude like okay i

really don't know how to play

but you said you were gonna you're gonna

humiliate me and uh

i'm gonna make an ass to myself i'll let

the chat decide how it went down is that

uh

well i mean your chat's full of ashley

okay

closing remarks uh

subscribe to my youtube channel i've got

a series on a people's history of

socialism

and if you guys would like to learn

about the history

stupid bitch

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you