Debate with Anti-Communist Turns UGLY!

so next up we have you know it's funny

because i wrote a tweet about

um he is the one person like

that we've booked debates for he doesn't

even ask who he's debating just

freaking comes and shows up um

how are you tonight has um i'm good

i'm good i'm good and i'm ready to

rumble you know yeah you want to

introduce yourself tell people

where you lie on the political spectrum

and where people can find you

amaz from the infrared show

where marxist lenin is uh

simple as that all right so we

are going to start with opening

statements can be as little as one

minute no longer than five

about the topic and your stance after

that will open up the floor

uh for those of you watching if you want

to ask questions tag politically

provoked

who your question is addressed to um ask

them throughout the debate

we'll jot them down because there will

be a cut off at the end and once the

cutoff happens we will only accept super

chats

so if you want your question read for

free get it in while you can

um after the q a we will go into closing

statements and final

thoughts so catboy you um you said you

have a bit of a

you're probably gonna use your entire

time so why don't you get us started

with your opening statement oh shit okay

i'm going first

all right nervous all right

um let me just get to the paper uh all

right so i guess

i'll i'll take my five minutes now

in my opinion communism is an ideology

that is more often than not

forced on the people from those who

suffer under the luke

this boot of communism is justified

internally and externally

fundamentally

internally the communist finds its

justification in party dogma

the educating dictatorship is a term

coined by

critiques of 20th century communism it

basically

explains an ideologically family which

sees its right to leadership coming not

by the consent of the governed

like i believe it should be but

internally by the perceived inherent

correctness of communist thought

esri zondetra is to lead the masses to a

revolution from above

whether they like it or not and

eventually when they can be trusted the

masses will finally have a say in it

externally communism is justified by a

series of failed promises and lies

the communist economy grows quicker than

any others this is a lie

the communist despot offers a better

life than any other this is too a lie

the communist promises to be more

peaceful than any other

also lie the communist promises to be

more careful manager

well in my own land of birth romania the

communist dictatorship

failed to even supply their own

government-managed breadlines with bread

it was a shit show in many debates such

as the one we are having today i hear

one argument

i'm not defending the entire soviet

system or any of its failings as a whole

i just have to admit that the centrally

planned economy

is more successful and it's a better

system

in my view this is a bad justification

as an empathetic man and as a christian

this seems heartless to me

ignoring human suffering in favor for

the good and efficient economy sounds

like something

your evil bourgeoisie should be doing

not anyone purporting to be for the

common people

luckily you aren't your only option

christian democracy not only offers a

better physical life but a healthier

spiritual one

we support markets but also humane labor

laws and trade unions to allow the

workers to advocate for themselves

not be dictated to by a party elite the

christian democrat looks to the future

without ignoring our heritage

our past and our faith and most

importantly

we envision a modern world with neither

heartless neoliberalism

nor despotic communism that's that's my

opening statement

um so we were here to talk about

the difference between so-called social

market economy versus marxist socialism

as experienced by those who lived under

it

well to begin i just want to um

clear any uh worries you have i'm not

here to actually

say no i don't defend the soviet union

but i just defend some abstract idea no

i do defend the soviet union i defend

the soviet union

i defend the communist states and i

defend the legacy of 20th century

communism so rest assured i am here to

defend

uh communist states so let's get that

out of the way

the second thing is uh you mentioned a

whole lot of things about communists

lying uh well almost all of the lists

you gave were a combination

of things you made up in other words

things they didn't actually directly

promise uh in order to lie about in the

first place

and also uh things i don't think would

hold up to scrutiny when we would

interrogate them

one by one in terms of uh whether they

were in fact

lies it's interesting that you come from

romania

a country whose story is basically

defined by the fact

that upon leaving the com con

the communist economic

lock and becoming indebted because of

imf loans a country completely ravaged

by the imf by international capitalism

and romania to this day

remains uh extremely underdeveloped

relative to the rest of europe

joining the eu did not do much for the

romanian people and the romanian

infrastructure left behind

and which is almost entirely by the way

left over from the communist era

um so i wonder if you are just waiting

for christian democracy to come

make romania

have new infrastructure and actually

have new industry

because whatever system romania has now

has not been able to accomplish that

um that is true romania has been purpose

uh i would say permanently scarred

by the mismanagement of the communist

regime i would also say that while

people

polled positively for society now i

think at least half or almost half of

the population does

people overwhelmingly poll even more

positively for the old monarch

um a lot of people see the communist as

using the soviet union to

topple our um topple our monarch topple

our constitutional monarchy although i'm

not a constitutional monarchist

um and basically pull us into the listen

to the red block

uh against our will well that again

was only popular because he was one of

the only nationalist communist leaders

well you believe alice in romania well

here's a flaw to your arguments is the

fact that

people lived under czech are still alive

today

right no one lived under the monarchy or

maybe some do but they're

completely tiny marginal part of the

population so

the memory of this monarchy and the

memory of chichester

differ because there's actually lived

experience behind

people who lived under romanian

communism

i i have no doubt that romanians are

fervently nationalistic people and

may have you know pulled well for the

monarchy and whatever but

people are not doing that because they

recall life under the monarchy they do

it just because of romanian nationalism

uh well to be fair he pulled more

popular than the communist government

throughout the

uh throughout the 50s 60s 70s and 80s

he's still more popular can you show me

that that's why he was um yeah he was

famously he was banned from entering

romania by the communist party because

they were afraid if he came and started

giving speeches people would start

getting uppity no i find it interesting

that there's actually polling data for

that

in the under communist rule would you do

you have a source you can reference

my i'm feeling stupid because i did

mention i'm from romania but romania is

one of the

few countries i didn't actually collect

data for that wasn't economic

um i do have a a list of some of the

more

more popular to talk about uh communist

nations going over

soviet nostalgia because i figured we

would be talking about that a lot

um the ones they do have my main

arguments are going to be uh

revolving around the czech republic and

east and west germany

um well that i have hold on i didn't

actually prepare for anything regarding

the czech republic so let's confine it

to germany which is what the initial

topic well the chakra public is going to

be should be pretty easy i know i would

understand that you don't want to talk

about the czech republic because

communists came in and invaded no it's

because i didn't do any preparation for

the czech republic a country i don't

even have a lot of familiarity with

i do have more i i you wanted to debate

about germany and

uh no i said those are those are a

number of nations i have

so um of the nations that i do know

about that i've collected data for this

includes east germany poland

the czech republic slovakia hungary

lithuania

russia ukraine and bulgaria

only russia and you russians and

ukrainians

still overwhelmingly support the um

the the communist regime the exact um if

you wanted to give you the source

um the exact polling questions um

were they were pulled on two separate

things um whether they

uh let me bring this link into our

private chat so you can see it

um if that's dead or not um

this is so 2019 um earlier

earlier polls from the 2000s which had a

larger and more proportion

of people who actually lived under

communist states

in all the countries you mentioned had a

much higher proportion of people who

said that life was good under communism

well then you should be able to find me

those sources but if you're not going i

can find any

source right now freeze germany yeah

yeah so why don't you

if you can find them for all of this

country that'd be nice you can um you

can find as well

so

and christian democracy now christian

democracy is one of those ideologies

which helped

in european reconstruction after world

war ii and reconstruction after the fall

of the year i need you to calm down

buddy

the title was rein

uh ryan capitalism versus marxian

socialism

as regards the people who lived under

them and those people

uh can only be german

germany east germany versus west germany

no when the debate topic when we met in

regards to the people living under them

i was talking more about you know

human rights and stuff of the people who

would be living under these systems

in the past and theoretically in the

future it's not that we're only allowed

to talk about the opinions of elderly

people and

from these post-regimes that's fine but

people who didn't live under these

states are not really qualified to have

given

actual fair judgment of what life was

like under them

do you think that only people who happen

to be citizens under a current regime

are allowed to speak on it and we can't

look at data

did i say that i said they're not

qualified to give an accurate

representation of what life was like

under it because they did not

actually live under those states it's

pretty simple uh well we can look at

things we can look at

quantifiable things and judge it that

way we're not going i'm not going into

well

people were sad under this regime i'm

not talking about that

so to continue with my statement in only

russians and ukrainians poll as

supporting um

supporting the old communist

dictatorships they're the only two

countries

that i listed where people both were

people both and these were two separate

questions that were act people did not

support the move to multi-party

democracy

and they did not support the move to

liberal markets however in east germany

poland the czech republic slovakia

hungary lithuania

all people overwhelmingly supported the

move

to a multi-party democracy

and the move to a liberal markets the

only outlier was

that the only outlier was bulgaria right

your data is wrong you have

false data 38 of people in the east see

reunification as a success

as compared to a majority who don't

to this day 57 percent of east germans

consider themselves to be second-class

citizens within

germany so your polling data is either

inaccurate or it is not an actual

full and fair representation that's not

the same question

i i also i understand because there's

different goals that you see

well yeah east germans do feel left

behind because

as most other communist states there

have been economically ravaged by the

communist party which is the lie i've

been able to capture which is a lie

right i would say the entire history of

the world begs to differ

well okay here's here's the tough thing

about talking to you about this right

you're jumping all over europe and i

would like to address

each country separately like i can talk

to you about why east germany

had the history it did very easily

because germany was the topic

germany was supposed to germany shut the

fuck up shut the fuck up fucking

interrupting me

shut the fuck up east germany was going

to be the topic of this debate

you want to run from germany to the

czech republic to poland to ukraine to

russia

all over europe can you stop

globetrotting and focus in on

what we're actually supposed to be

trying to find where i said germany

would be the topic of this debate when

we agreed to the topic of this debate

it's about

whether ryan so-called the social market

economy whether it's the one that

existed in west germany

or the one that exists now in unified

germany

better than marxian associates can be

said to be better than marxian socialism

as regards to the people who lived under

it stay the fuck on topic

i don't think you're the one on topic

all right ryan capitalism is an economic

system that has been used all across

europe and latin america now from

germany to the czech republic to austria

to the nordic model

to peru which is also the most fastest

growing economy in latin america right

now

we didn't agree to just talk about east

germany about and only talk

about the opinions of of some of certain

uh part of the population we're talking

about

the benefits to society as a whole so

which countries do you consider ryan

capitalism so we can be clear about that

um i would say czech republic germany

austria denmark and peru to be people

following the

only two of those are former communist

states are

adjacent to communist nations i know

west germany was not a communist

state but only two of those countries

are relevant to the actual debate topic

uh no no because i could i could still

point out economic history from these

people and we could look at

even in these in in lesser developed

places like peru example

how they're doing well

uh they i don't believe they had a

communist so it's not relevant

don't talk about peru we can't talk

about it because they didn't have

fucking communism it's very simple

we're not only talking about states who

are communists and then change to not

communists we're talking you describe

the czech republic system

as brian capitalism i'd like to know

where you're actually getting that idea

from

uh very country that broadly

uh they have a free market model which

broadly sees the government as

the government's job as um going into

the economy and

uh not over and not over regulating it

really stepping in just to

improve um competition that's extremely

ambiguous

you when you're talking about the social

sciences there's more stuff broadly also

supports

uh organized labor not necessarily

connected to the state

denmark would also be another good

example where they don't have for

instance state mandates on

on wages they just let the they let the

um

the organized labor do it for themselves

there's actually plenty of countries

that fall under that extremely

unproductive useless and fully ambiguous

description

i see that you got your description of

the social market economy from wikipedia

which says

austria the czech republic germany peru

poland

the united kingdom and the united states

or the united kingdom well i wouldn't

i wouldn't add to the united kingdom the

united states or poland into it so i

guess i have a difference so

how do you know peru is this how where

are you getting this idea

that all of these other countries can be

listen when someone says ryan capitalism

they're talking about germany they're

talking about the country that the rhine

river is in now they're talking about

there's certainly christians christian

democracy

had in had influence throughout all of

western europe i agree

but when you're talking about a system

of ryan capitalism

you're talking about germany because in

contrast to those other countries

germany is where uh christian democracy

actually took hold and was able to form

new institutions after world war ii and

so on and so on

that implemented uh its ideas

so i don't know where you're getting

this idea that countries like peru

can be qualified it's called that not

because it's only the capitalism that

people on the rhine use it's called that

because it was an economic theory that

was developed in germany at first

another christian democrats and has been

expanded throughout the rest of europe

and parts of latin america now

i also like to talk about how has it

been expanded

[Music]

i'm a south american unificationist i

think that america should take more

control and take more of an interest i

don't care about your

ridiculous and bizarre ideas about latin

america would you call singapore and

south korea

ryan capitalist states they also have a

special connection between the

state and uh and unions and so on i mean

most

advanced developed states fall under the

label of

a so-called orion capitalism as you've

defined it

if you don't know i would say that's a

point in my favor that all these great

developed states no it's not

because there's no there's no need to

call it ryan capitalism or christian

democracy since

christian democracy and ryan capitalism

is entirely inessential no

south korea and singapore don't call

themselves

ryan capitalism so when you talk about

ryan

when you talk about ryan capitalism

you're talking about germany

uh you know if it makes if it makes you

feel better i'll just use social

capitalism then or you know what

you're a commie i'll give you a laugh we

can call it capitalism with a human face

you should know that i actually don't

care what you call it you can call it

social capitalism but if you want to

change the debate to

social capitalism the scope of this

debate is going to be

much more extensive than it was going to

be initially i even have to change my

stream title so it's not actually about

germany

it's about the entire globe and the

world over so we have to actually cover

well it's more about western and north

nordic europe

i think probably okay let's be let's be

very clear where do you want to confine

this specific debate no if it makes you

you know we can confine it um i want to

specifically talk about

czech republic as is where i would

really like to talk about

uh japan it'd be another reason not

necessarily just for for

um you say japan uh well yeah well that

depends if we get into a

conversation about the soviet union's

market growth they'd want to bring up

japan because japan has

grew yeah because yeah

japan is the only country that grew

faster and consistently

and also had a higher gdp per capita

than the soviet union

there are a lot of others

ireland all of western europe all of

northern europe

had faster what's the time what's the

time period you're talking about

um this would be 1970s this would be

pre-19 from like the 60s to the 70s yeah

we all know there was a president we all

know about the brezhnev stagnation so

that doesn't really count the soviet

union can't

say that let's not talk about i i can't

no no i i can't

say something

shut the fuck up you said it was a lie

when communists stated that they had the

highest growth in the world

where for a long time the soviet union

did have the highest fucking growth

it's until the brezhnev stagnation that

that shows they didn't have the highest

fucking growth either

until the brezhnev stagnation yes no no

no no they didn't have the highest

fucking growth even though they named

two countries that had higher growth

before the brexit stagnation go ahead

uh let's see spain ireland and japan

no it didn't yes it doesn't only give

you a source i can give you a source

go ahead give me the source uh let's see

this should yeah here it is so these

actually have some really fancy

colored graphs you can look at where's

the source again i understand the

it's in the pm can i drop images in

there

yeah this is the same fucking source we

talked about in the last debate if you

actually read this correctly

you didn't

this little thing that i'm showing on

stream that's showing portugal spain all

these countries

this is not actually talking about the

rate of growth if you actually read this

correctly you're going to find

that the soviet union was higher than

everyone except japan here's the actual

relevant chart i'm showing it right now

on stream

i can pull it up if you want um

it's right here but it's it's you just

have to control that but

what about robert allen's from farm to

factory what if we consider the ussr

starting with stalin it's right here

and this is 28 to 70. so that's even

after

you're probably looking wait you're are

you looking at the gdp per capita

because those are a list of nations that

had a higher gdp per capita at times but

the i am also it's not measuring the

rate of growth

look your source says it then we find

the ussr was the fastest growing economy

except for japan it's ad verbatim on one

of the

on one of the upper graphs gdp growth

this is a rate of growth over time from

the 30s

to the 90s it's not the rate of growth

it is not

the rate of growth

you don't know how to fucking read

graphs you're so stupid holy shit

that is not the rate of growth

you see growth that's not over rate

it's not actually showing you do you

understand math

there's a difference between showing gdp

growth and showing the rate of growth

your own fucking source

admits that from 28 to 70 the ussr was

the fastest growing economy except for

japan

oh i i understand the problem here all

right so when i'm saying growth over

time

yeah all right so you're right the

soviet union at certain at one period of

history had the fastest growing economy

the bulk of its history

not one period of its history for the

bulk of its history no not for the bulk

of it yes

if it lasted 70 years and from 28

to 70 it had the highest growth in

highest it the future the highest growth

until after world war ii

first of all listen your

graph your own source admits that from

1928

to 1970 it had the highest growth except

for japan that's your source the one you

shared

right so again so you'd be saying that

the soviet union didn't have the highest

growth but again

this group these groups one exception

well japan is a tiny fucking country

without like not even

a portrait of the of the natural

resources or the population

on so what japan had a huge head start

over the fucking ussr

during the meiji restoration in japan's

hyper industrialization yes

so you're telling me that the fucking

monarchist japan had a better system of

growth in

your system do you think that's good

that's did i say it had a better system

of growth

you just said you're saying it's not

fair we're comparing like the major i

don't know i know you don't understand

logic

there's two different claims right one

is that it actually did have more growth

and the other is that it had a better

system of growth

if you if i were to concede to you that

it had a better system of growth

i would be saying that japan grew more

than the ussr

because of its system but i'm not

arguing that it grew

because why do you think it grew if not

because of the system that it had

considering that i'll tell you why

i will tell you why because japan

combined

a heavily state commanded or intervened

level of uh economic control for the

specific

purpose of actually achieving those

growth rates plus it had

nearly unlimited access to foreign

capital and foreign investment

so combining those two yes you're going

to have huge rates of growth

i would say that capitalist investment

is really good however japan

i would say actually deregulated its

economy

all right it came out of okay it came

out no let me finish it came out of its

isolationist period

the state stopped blocking people from

investing the state stopped people

that state got did away with its class

system which allowed merchants

and middle class let's not get into the

meiji restoration you're just wasting

time i get it there's one

you need to fucking walk back what you

just said and i'll read it to you

carefully

what i just said was that japan during

the period of the ussr's growth

had a heavy-handed state-led economy

which is true

and you said well technically during the

meiji restoration like

80 years before in the fucking 1800s

they actually opened up

we don't want to get into the fucking

history of feudal japan and samurais and

shit dude major restoration just fucking

stay on topic

for no reason we don't have we don't

have to talk about samurais and ninjas

dude we don't we're not we're

first off you what you agreed it was

meiji recipe restoration period onward

that's post-feudal japan we're not even

talking about san francisco

because that was the that was the

opening of its industrialization

and obviously yes it opened up to the

world and it broke down all of its

feudal traditions and whatever but it

was a still

very state heavy-handed uh economic

growth

that was an explosion for private for ch

i'm not sure

it was a huge problem yeah i'm not

saying it was a constant the biggest

thing

i'm not saying it was a fucking

socialism

japan was a socialist command economy

stop

fucking taking i'm not saying that

either you're saying it was heavy-handed

by the state

yes it was it was objectively there was

heavy-handed

intervention in the economy united

states yes but japan did the best

compared to every country no no not

compared to every country

yes compared to almost any country in

europe economy

they allowed they stopped with the

bullshit class system they stopped with

the weird regulations how you could only

trade in a couple of listings

that's feudal japan it's not fucking

relevant okay japan

compared to europe had a very

heavy-handed state intervention in its

economy that is a fucking fact

no one who actually argues in good faith

and doesn't want to waste people's time

for no fucking reason

will argue against that fact yeah of

course the state didn't own

the enterprise i'm not saying they owned

i'm saying you say the state

intervention can you let me finish

you're creating between you so you think

my actual argument here is that oh yeah

state is good letting go is bad i'm not

even fucking

saying that the reason i mentioned it

had heavy-handed state intervention

wasn't because i was trying to make a

ideological point about socialism but

because of the fact

that the japanese state made it its

actual intentional and specific

explicit goal to industrialize the

country

ergo it had very high rates especially

when you uh couple that with access

almost near

unlimited access to foreign capital and

being able to take

advantage of those global differentials

in

in capital okay it's it's a really

simple

point but you decided to talk about

ninjas and samurais instead

i didn't really you were the only one

who was said ninjas and samurais yeah

because you're talking about fucking

feudal japan and the way the majority

well i'm not see i want to talk about

japan post world war

ii uh there's this famous attitude where

the clothes

you want to talk about conservative

party won its elections in japan for the

prime ministership

um by promising that they would double

and they would double wages within 20

years and they managed to do it within

like eight they managed to double

the wages of the average japanese okay

okay i'm gonna

okay so you wanna look at japan no the

conservative party promised something

and with magic

fairy pixie dust it actually

accomplished it well not with capitalist

investments

here's the thing here's what you're

missing okay and this is what happens

when you actually debate someone who

knows about history

when you actually look at the business

shut the fuck up

shut your fucking mouth you don't even

have a fucking cam

up and you're fucking disrespecting me

like this show your face dude

you want to fucking interrupt me show

your fucking face

second of all with your that wealth

and that's pretty enough shut the fuck

up

shut the fuck up that wealth and

prosperity you're talking about after

world war

ii was the result of the

american-designed bretton woods system

and it was a global system with

unlimited access to the world's

resources the world's

capital the world's industrial uh build

up and especially america's

uh foreign capital investment everyone

prospered from that fucking system

uh who was it was in

shut the dallas up because that was most

of the world

that was mostly clearly not all of the

world because africa

middle east were not involved you need

to understand something

do i yes you do what do i need to

understand industrializat

countries that have the burden of

industrializing themselves

from scratch without being able to take

advantage

of differentials in capital um

concentration

globally they're going to have

objectively

a harder time than countries that can

actually participate and take advantage

of those differentials in other words

surpluses produced by uh initial

concentrations of capital can be used to

invest in other countries other

countries can benefit from those

investments and on and on the the

process goes

so the question was the soviet union

able to invest

why wasn't the soviet union able to

acquire foreign investment

no why weren't they able to invest in

their other communists the soviet union

had to industrialize itself

from scratch it couldn't take advantage

of foreign capital in the ways

that the countries you're talking about

could well why didn't they the soviet

union specifically

blocked the eastern police entering the

system and taking loans from the west

because virgil

poland czechoslovakia all of these

nations wanted to get investment from

the united states and from the west

the soviet union told them not to

otherwise they would be kicked out of

the red block keep talking keep talking

keep talking you want to talk more

why are you so pissy about this holy

shit these are so fucking annoying

i'm sorry you don't know how to shut

your mouth

harmony i didn't even hear anything you

said because you interrupted me i turned

you what tuned you out

and that's what's gonna keep happening

the soviet union didn't acquire

foreign capital investment because a

it couldn't because it was politically

encircled and for political reasons

excluded from the world market

the second reason is the soviet union

wanted to have

national sovereignty and

the states that would have invested in

the soviet union

would not have done so under those terms

and conditions

so the soviet union did have the burden

of industrializing its economy from

scratch

so it could retain actual sovereignty

and actual independence

and basically have its own source

of industrialization rather than taking

advantage of the

prior and precedent forms of

industrialization now there's countries

like china that went

down a different path and took advantage

of the prior forms of industrialization

that happened in the west and

they used that to industrialize

themselves after deng's reforms

but the soviet union was not in a

position to do anything like that at

that time so the soviet union had to

carry that burden itself

uh are you done can you put your thumb

in your mouth while i speak now

since you just fucking disrespected me

go ahead all right okay um so

the the soviet union is can blame itself

for not being able to take investment

because

during the reconstruction period for

four years after

the after the war america primarily and

the united kingdom basically had a no

questions asked policy where they would

give you

basically handle your state budgets for

four years no questions out you didn't

even need to be indebted to them

the soviet union specifically blocked

itself they refused to take part in it

and then they blocked um they blocked

every other eastern bloc nation from

taking part in these investments later

on as well

why what why would the soviet union

block all of these other nations who

weren't their own threatened them to

stop them from getting investments

because of some apparent sovereignty

that they would be losing

only to later on rip their own economic

their own industrialization out for them

to bring back to the soviet union and

invade the fuckers anyway

why does the soviet union care so much

about sovereignty if it's going to trips

around the rest of eastern europe

and fucking invade people constantly

whenever they try and liberalize them

i don't think it's because they cared

about sovereignty okay well there's

three bullet points of absolute

stupidity that i just heard

the first one is that the soviet union

was pledged to some

unconditional principle of sovereignty

in the abstract

i never said that actually i said the

soviet union itself wanted to be

sovereign

the soviet union didn't care about the

sovereignty of other countries

which i'm going to contest that it

doesn't actually say anything

about my initial point that the soviet

union wanted its own

sovereign industrialization the second

bullet point of stupidity

is that if you think that the so the

only reason the soviet union exited

bretton woods is for some ideological or

irrational reason you just don't fucking

know anything about bretton woods and

all of the strings that were attached to

the american global monetary system

soviet union didn't want to be part of

bretton woods or america's plans for the

world

because the soviet union didn't believe

that it was a fair

political division of power globally it

gave too much

political power to america and yes for

purposes of sovereignty

the soviet union did not want to enter

into it

as for the soviet union preventing all

of these other european countries

from entering it the actual political

relationship

between the soviet union as a center and

the communist parties that

uh took power in the eastern european

states is much more subtle than you're

trying to say is with the soviet union

directly commanding them obviously there

was a central will that was coming from

no it was not shut the fuck up shut the

fuck up

it wasn't shut you're lying first off

they invaded

your fucking hungry over market

liberalization the communist party of

poland shut the fuck up

anything the audience doesn't fucking

hear anything you're saying shut your

fucking mouth

when it came when it came to um

there's two another two bullet points of

stupidity how did

the communist parties seize power in um

europe obviously it was because of world

war ii that's no one's contestant no

that was not true

the communist parties and first of in

many countries they literally just

did a coup threatening the democratic

establishments of the countries

that if they did not give the communist

party's undue government power the

soviet union would invade them

they did the coup and check this out the

world war ii

and no this is after so you're running

away from the debate you're running away

from the democratic

running away from yes you fucking are

because i'm not done

actually

because you're a fucking pussy and you

don't want to fucking hear me fuck your

skull

so you fucking interrupted me so i

couldn't finish my fucking point

so you could go on your stupid fucking

tangent shut the fuck up you're not

lying

this is not the soviets had some state

control because

no one hears what you are saying no one

hears what you

are saying shut the fuck up shut the

fuck up shut the fuck up

shut the fuck up shut the fuck up shut

the fuck up shut the fuck up shut the

fuck up

shut the fuck up shut the fuck up shut

the fuck up how many fucking times

have you fucking interrupted me midpoint

you fucking interrupt me

where the fuck is that you're going to

fucking get like who the fuck

is fucking comfortable shut the fuck up

shut your fucking mouth

you don't even let me finish my fucking

point is there

is anyone moderating this can we just

take turns and i can speak

okay so the reason i said the communist

parties acquired power in eastern europe

as a result of world war ii

was because the soviet union

invaded those countries to reach

germany to reach berlin okay so that was

world war ii

and as a result the soviet occupation

made it easier for communist parties to

acquire power now the details of how

they acquired power i don't care to talk

about it

because it's not relevant right now

there's so much we have to get to first

but i agree it wasn't it wasn't simply

because of some uh

some you know impartial democracy or

whatever

will of the people yeah it was because

of world war ii and the soviet

invasion i'm not fucking denying that

but

it's a myth to think that it was a form

of direct control from the kremlin to

these communist states i mean to these

communist

parties it's just not how it fucking

worked there was an implicit

understanding that

soviet union was in charge and it was

the leader but

there these communist parties had a

degree of autonomy and had a degree of

sovereignty

um one of the important reasons why

these states

some of these states uh were forced into

these

economic agreements with the ussr is

because

the soviet union believed that it was

owed reparations because many of these

countries participated in the invasion

of the ussr alongside the germans

the third thing is something you

mentioned i forgot what i was going to

say even before oh yeah the thing about

bretton woods

you're saying the soviet union forced

these countries

do not allow them to sign the agreements

to bretton woods

but since these countries are already

compromised by communist coups anyway

what does that even matter can you show

evidence that the communist states

wanted to join

bretton woods and furthermore

it's dubious to claim that

all of these communist states were

result of direct

ooze and soviet intervention and

otherwise would it wouldn't have been

able to acquire power

because there's clear examples of

communist states throughout the history

after world war ii who broke with the

soviet union romania actually is a great

example of that yugoslavia is a clear

example of that and albania is an

example and there's

probably uh someone missing or something

but yeah

another thing um that i finally wanted

to get to is

you said something extremely stupid

about hungary

you said that the reason for the soviet

intervention in 56 in hungary was

because the soviet union

didn't want hungary to have a liberal

market economy the soviet union didn't

give a shit

about what kind of economic system the

hungarians wanted to adopt

what the soviets were worried about was

that hungary was going to go over to the

west

so it was all geopolitics they didn't

give a shit what kind of fucking

economic system they have

and the evidence of this is the fact

that after

the events of 56 a much more moderate

communist government

acquired power in hungary and they did

implement a degree of marketization and

whatever

relative to other communist states

especially the soviet union

actually if you look at the variance of

the diff

how these systems across the communist

states in eastern europe were different

you'll realize that this idea that

there's just one type of

state control so it's a complete

bullshit almost all of these countries

had a private sector they had private

industries

and uh the picture the picture you're

trying to paint is completely inaccurate

okay

all right all right yeah now go ahead

you got bretton woods

how long are you going to let him around

can i speak now all right make sure

you got it yep you got it all right

so i understand that he wouldn't want to

get into the details of communist

leadership or

communist taking power in eastern europe

because largely the history of communism

in most of the world but especially in

eastern europe has been completely

anti-democratic

has been forced from the top down onto

the workers who are unwilling to do so

some of these details we can get into in

1948

that i know very well the communist

party of czechoslovakia

carried out a coup specifically backed

by moscow

over the democratic state of

czechoslovakia though they only got

between 20 and 30 percent of the vote in

their previous elections which is

granted

the highest percentage of popular

support

any communist any communist group has

ever gotten

when putting it up to an actual free

election so fair enough on them

instead of engaging with the other

people who are also democratically

elected by the workers

instead of engaging in the democratic

system because apparently

these people who think they represent

the masses are so afraid to actually let

the workers of democratic saying things

they could against the democratic state

overthrew it locked up and assassinated

and tortured and murdered their

political opponents and turned it into a

backwards dictatorship

in bulgaria it was the same story the

communist party failed in the elections

they got support from moscow moscow

acquiesced even offered them military

support if the coup did not go well and

the bulgarian communist party

took control of the state locked up

their political opponents and had them

shot they for a moment allowed the

peasant small landowning party a peasant

party to

mold with the communist party to form

some sort of uh popular

left coalition government but a few

years later they even executed

the more liberal members of their own

party in romania the communist party

absolutely

failed their democratic elections and so

they got with

acquiescence from moscow they threatened

the monarch

to give them morse to take over the

government

they threatened the fucking monarch of

romania to take over the government

to do away with the elected results and

to give the communists more power in

parliament and a few years later

they were also couped as well and poland

the communist party did

miserably they actually begged the

soviet union

not to invade them because they thought

they could have a nice election

this is a fun fact that while the soviet

union was pushing through poland

a country they attacked without

provocation engaged in genocide against

helped the nazis invade

and while they were fighting the nazis

they were engaged in a guerrilla war

with the poles before the nazis were

even defeated because they wanted to

stamp up polish national pride

the polish communists did so abysmally

in the elections they had to go out

through a second round of voting

with the communist party stuffing

ballots

and um intimidating voters and they even

failed then so with acquiescence from

the communist state

they cooed the government started

rounding at political mode and started

shooting people this is a history of

communism in eastern europe

now with regards to some of the other

economic developments and stuff

countries that specifically wanted to

gain western

economic development they wanted some

investments were

poland the baltic states and hungary all

specifically wanted more

economic development from the west

because they weren't getting it from the

their fellow communists because as much

as it's supposed to be this sort of

unified utopian block

they really fucking destroyed each other

it's hardcore game theory there

the soviet union did not give them

permission and even blocked them from

going into negotiations over

international policy with the united

states

until the soviet union was specifically

involved

um a good example i like to use in so

far as development

is the success of czechoslovakia after

the fall of communism now

czechoslovakia is an interesting example

after the fall of communism

um a lot of this happened mostly because

the soviet union finally came out and

said that we are not going to be

invading other countries if they start

to liberalize

you guys have to defend yourself and so

most of these communist parties did a

sneaky thing

they opened up free elections and then

they went through this long process of

rehabilitation as this actually very

pro-democratic liberal party

in czechoslovakia that didn't happen in

czechoslovakia the communist party

refused to modernize and refuse to

develop over time they remained the

communist party of old

they've been kept out of all coalitions

at this point because they're persona

non grata for the absolute misery

they've reaped on the population

but because of that czechoslovakia has

had a new

a unique position as being able to

develop their economy and their

government their systems of democracy

without any uh without any intervention

from the old order they've been able to

completely remake their system

and because of that their education

their life expectancy

their economic development has increased

five-fold even though

they began yeah so a smaller nation was

able to do much

better than the communists were just

through market liberalization

more democracy and independent trade

unions of the workers which is what i'm

advocating for which is much better than

you've ever been able to offer anyone

okay so back to you how's you got a lot

there 1948's czech bulgaria

we actually got a lot going on so i find

it really peculiar so

in terms of the political history of the

communist states in europe

you are able to air all of their dirty

laundry and all of the horrible bad

parts of the history while ignoring the

good of course within the time span of a

an online debate but if i were to air

the dirty long

laundry of the west we i couldn't fit it

in the time tan of a debate it would

take

days it would take weeks it would

probably take months right

i have to talk about operation gladio

all of the coups orchestrated by the uk

and the us

and all that bullshit going on i

wouldn't even have time to exhaust the

list

you know so the very fact that you had

time to say all of that

really shows that you really don't have

much another thing

though is that let's go point that point

by what i was able to capture from your

um

your uh unconstrained rant

so you claim that the communists seized

power in the form of coups

well this is an extremely misleading

thing to say because

the states that the communists could

right

um discerning whether they actually had

the will of the people behind them is

extremely difficult because of the work

time conditions

in times of war especially when you're

invaded by a foreign power

um the legitimacy of a state

uh breaks down so these chaotic

conditions do not

allow for a situation in which you can

establish

some kind of liberal democratic system

in order to decide

which party or whatever should take

power and mind you

many of these countries romania and

bulgaria included

participated in the axis invasions of

the ussr

they were conquered and invaded by the

ussr as a result

so the situation is nowhere near as neat

and clear as all these were flourishing

democracies

and the communists came and just took

them over at the expense of the will of

the people

well the will of the people was not

actually clear whatsoever

you said the communists did very poorly

in the elections that they held well

i don't actually know which specific

elections you're referring to because

you didn't actually

cite anything and some of those counts

like in the case of poland i don't there

was a

election in poland in 1947 and

the communists came out on top i don't

know what actually you're talking about

so but that aside you know

um the idea that

liberal democracy is the sole or even

exclusive vehicle

by which the actual will of a people can

be discerned and tested and

discovered i would contest that view

especially in the

circumstances of a wartime economy but

to be quite frank with you i frankly

don't give a shit about

democracy i don't think states acquire

their legitimacy from

asking the consent of the the people a

state does not could not possibly arise

in that way whatsoever what actually

matters is the extent to which

people tolerated those states and

the people participated in overthrowing

them

now let's see um

yeah you mentioned it at the czech coup

the romania coup and the bulgaria coup

you don't have time to go into the

details and the circumstances of all of

those separate

situations but i find it really funny

that you're just throwing as much shit

against the wall as you can just waiting

to see until something sticks

um listen when i said we don't have time

to go into detail about these things

you interpreted that as oh this is your

achilles heel you're scared to talk

about this dirty history

no it's just that a i didn't come

prepared to talk about those

very specific historical events and all

the details surrounding them

and b even if i did it would it's too

much ground to fucking cover anyway

you're not actually staying on topic

about what the

actual topic was initially about and

furthermore it's really this is uh the

crooks i guess of the lie

of what series of lies you just spewed

when you said that the soviet union

invaded poland unprovoked

excuse me are you trying to say that

after poland was invaded

by the nazis and the soviet union had to

protect its eastern front that this was

an unprovoked invasion of poland

excuse me are you trying to say that

when poland signed a non-aggression pact

with nazi germany in 1934

and signed a treaty sorry with nazi

germany in 1934

that this didn't signal the fact the

soviet union had an unproduct

protected eastern eastern front excuse

me are you denying the fact

that poland stole soviet land during the

civil war

and engaged in a tyrannical rule against

ethnic minorities that welcome the

soviets

with open arms excuse me are you trying

to say that the soviet union

engaged in a genocide against the polish

people

a lie so outlandish and ridiculous not

even the most

fervent anti-communist historians have

the gall to

to say something like that finally you

talk about the success

of czechoslovakia which is extremely

interesting actually

because czechoslovakia might just be the

only country in europe

that you can find a degree of success

and a degree of um

let's say succession from the communist

era that satisfies the population that

actually lived under communism

but the truth is that for the

overwhelming majority of ex-communist

states in europe

the infrastructure the fundamental means

of production the factories the institut

even

institutions the culture and the way of

life

was inherited from the communist era and

capitalism has been proven

to be unable to replace those

if uh so-called european capitalism is

so great

why are they still using the

infrastructure created under the

communists why can't they create their

own infrastructure adapted to the modern

times why have they become colonies of

germany and western europe

riddled with debt and purposefully

underdeveloped to the benefit of german

industry

and at the expense of their own

industries why

is it that there is such a high degree

of nostalgia and positive views

among the people who actually lived

under communist states to this day

in eastern europe why is it

that to this day a measure of

right-wing populism widespread

discontent and social

ills is almost directly correlated with

the fall of communism

for example in east germany you'll find

the rise of right-wing populism in the

same place

now you attribute this to the so-called

uh

desolation and ravaging that the

communists did in the 20th century but

the data doesn't actually back up

any desolation or ravaging the data

backs up

extremely high rates of growth the

providing of a basic level of dignity

and a standard of living

which admittedly um

ended in crisis but that crisis did not

comprise

sorry the the crisis resulting from the

brezhnev stagnation to clarify which one

but that that that crisis specific

economic crisis

didn't comprise the majority of life

under those communist states

and that's why even for people who

endured and lived under those crisis

they still remember life under communism

rather fondly

okay good cat oh yeah i feel like he's

getting way more time than me holy shit

why don't we have timing yeah well why

don't we do it like where we'll

have um like you know two minutes uh oh

no two

two don't give me two minutes after that

bullshit all right i need a lot more

time to go over all of that sort of

stuff

all right well then after that and then

after that you guys both had long rants

and what can go back to

two minutes yeah okay um so

starting with two of the more egregious

things he said i'd like to start with

the fact that he thinks you don't

actually need democracy to represent the

people

and this other statement he made about

states getting their legitimacy by

placating the people

with material goods oddly materialistic

and i would say capitalistic of him

but i would say i it's this is language

i don't understand in my view

as a christian democrat as an economic

and social and a political liberal at

least

i'm socially conservative i believe that

the only right any state has to exist

is the right is given to it by the

consent of the people

that it exists over um

i find it interesting and i think it's

telling

that the communist here is saying that

we don't actually need multi-party

democracy to understand the world of the

people we don't actually need their

opinion we just need to placate them

this is a language of fascism which is

why i think that communism is in its

in true form fascism is just honest

communists

communists wish they could be as

effective as the fascists and taking

state power

now maybe i don't understand this

language because christian democracy

never had to be forced onto anyone with

the bayonet the way communism had to be

and my people the people of germany of

austria of denmark

peru although you don't like me bringing

up latin america they voted for my

beliefs

they continue to vote for my beliefs and

they will probably continue to vote for

my beliefs in the future

and czechoslovakia during the velvet

revolution where

they did not dismantle the communist

party like they did in another state the

communist party was simply allowed

to take place in the open and free

election

the communists lost and they continue to

lose their persona non grata

and so far as coalition building nobody

wants to touch them

and the tiny minority of the population

votes for them compared to

all of these other political parties

that are newer and are less established

um a few other things i understand that

you're very mad every time i bring up

the actual particulars of how communists

have actually behaved

when they've taken state power um

if i was a communist i wouldn't want to

talk about communist history either

because that history is

of totalitarianism is of genocide it's

incredibly bloody

and this is a time period where the rest

of the world at least in western europe

had sort of moved on from that while

western europe was more focused on

commercial goods for its citizens on

healthcare on creating better education

systems and creating entertainment

the soviet union was still trying to

mass murder people and

figure out how to placate the masses so

they unlike ceausescu

wouldn't be thrown out in the streets

and shot like a bitch

the way they deserved now one of the

worst things i think you spoke about

overall was the odd genocide denial for

the polls

now first off you talk about the soviet

union

as if you don't remember the

molotov-ribbentrough pact

the soviet union sided with the nazis

they the soviet union offered oil

rubbers and other necessary materials

for the german war effort

and in a run-about way the germans would

return that favor

by offering them weapons which they

would then use to genocide the poles

along with the nazis it was so bad

that the soviet union when the catin

massacre was found

where a number of other massacres were

also found by the western powers

tried to blame it on the nazis and

luckily

through international courts and through

historians and data collectors we

figured out who really murdered all of

those innocent people

the poll the polls were genocided by the

soviet union it was a small genocide it

was calculated to try and take away the

national spirit of the polish people

it was called the polish operation

within the soviet union

before the war with poland

in which the soviet union and nazi

germany took sides

to bully a smaller power they began to

round up torture and execute

ethnic polls within the soviet union the

death rate well the number of deaths are

not exactly known

because a lot of that we'll never know

because of where they were buried

we won't ever figure it out but the

estimated

number of deaths are somewhere between

200 to 400 000

polish civilians murdered within the

soviet union proper

and then when the soviet union invaded

poland killed within their own country

by the nkvd and various other organs of

the communist state

this was murder ethnically based because

the soviets wanted to crush the national

spirit of smaller powers that they

wanted to invade

i think it's disgusting that you deny

this genocide happen and i think it's

weird

that you act as if poland was deserving

some sort of retributive

genocide from the soviet union when the

soviet union

out of poland in the soviet union the

soviet union was far more

a partner with nazi germany they gave

them oil rubber

they helped rebuild the german military

when the germans were

trying to secretly rebuild their air

force and their tanks

the soviet union made deals within the

robben

molotov ribbon trump traction not only

divided poland but the rest of eastern

europe and the baltic states the soviet

union days before they were invaded by

nazi germany

sent deals to hitler asking him if he

could engage in a co-invasion

of turkey the same way that they did the

polls

um i understand that you would lie about

this because it doesn't make communists

look bad but i would say

that this is simply the natural alliance

between two

ideologically very similar groups the

fascists and the not the fascists and

the socialists in fact i mean

the marxist socialists teaming up with

the fascist socialists

to ethnically cleanse regions and take

them for their own

is not surprising at all i guess we can

go back to the back and forth now

okay all right i have to respond to all

of that now

[Laughter]

i actually have 10 bullet points i'll

just go through it i'll just i'll try to

get it quick

so um wow

so i guess we're moving on uh so you

said it's oddly materialistic and

capitalistic of me i don't know news

flash we marxes are materialists

i don't know why you're saying that's

some kind of irony um

i don't really care about your larp

christian democracy

cope christian democracy is a phrase

that has relevance in certain

european countries if you think

christian democracy is going to save

romania

good luck uh you say that

you're you're spouting some dogmatic

political philosophy bullshit about

legitimacy of the gov of states and

political legitimacy

this is all prejudice of 18th century

liberalism

which is fully outdated as of now

obviously states cannot acquire

their legitimacy from some kind of

election because it's a chicken in the

egg question it begs the question of

where that state came from no state

ever came into being because someone

went around asking

people what they want to vote on states

come into view

into being by means of violence that is

how every state in the history of

mankind

came into being certain states are multi

so-called multi-party democracies

where the population takes turns uh

voting on

which group of thieves and corrupt

ruling class representatives are going

to

con them and scan them but the

fundamental foundation of statehood

remains intact okay

um now you accuse me of using the

language of fascism when i say this

well i have a question for you did

fascists cease power in communist states

or liberal democratic states

after all weimar germany was a

multi-party

liberal democracy a multi-party liberal

democracy

mind you that the christian democrats

actually had a party with him

the conservatives in germany uh

hindenburg were the ones who enabled

hitler and allowed hitler to come to

power in germany

so for you to accuse communists of being

the same as fascists

begs the question of why it is that

bachelors can only manage to come to

power in liberal

democratic countries uh you mentioned

peru as an example of people voting for

your beliefs peru just voted for a

self-proclaimed marxist leninist pedro

castillo f's in the chat

we know communists lose elections in

eastern europe there's reasons for that

that go

far beyond reasons you gave and um

know the particulars of how communists

behave that you're saying i'm trying to

cover up

as you've mentioned them are very

specific to post-war

europe f's in the chat for that one

you're talking about mo totalitarianism

genocide and authoritarianism and

everything

anything you say about the communist

states has nothing on the history of

european imperialism and american

imperialism

especially during the cold war where

america backed several

coups and ruthless military

dictatorships and genocides

in the name of stopping communism give

me a break and

six what forms of mass murder can you

refer to after the fifties you claim the

soviet union was defined by that

afterwards

i would love to see you refer to actual

examples talk about the molotov ribbon

shop pack that was in 1939 that was

after all of the western powers rejected

non-aggression treaties

with the ussr it had to resort as a last

resort to buy itself time the soviet

union was not prepared to go to war with

nazi germany in 1939

it buying time for itself is not the

same as enabling and joining in an

alliance with the nazis

as for the claim about them trying to

divide europe this is an extremely

misleading claim they weren't trying to

divide europe to control it they were

trying to secure

borders and frontiers from invasions in

other words

they're trying to negotiate with the

germans about which countries they

can and can't invade it has nothing to

do with the soviet union

seizing power the captain massacre even

if it was perpetrated by the soviet

union and this is contested by some

scholars like professor grover fur

is not an example of a genocide it

targeted the polish intelligentsia not

because they were polish but because

they had a specific relation to the

prior polar state

uh you claim that polls were rounded up

tortured and executed

soviet union this is just a plane lie

substantiated and baseless you say the

death toll is

400 000 or something or 200 thousand

also 100

made up um the turkey allegations need

to be substantiated with evidence

and now you're saying that communist and

fascists have an alliance i have a

question for you who supported the

fascists in europe

america who were the who were who was

more likely to support fascism

communists or christian democrats at the

time

the truth is is that liberals and

conservatives and right-wingers and

nationalists all across europe

enabled and implicitly or explicitly

supported fascism

against the so-called communist menace

that is actually the facts

that are on the record thank you very

much

um insofar as

fascism only being able to take hold in

liberal democracies i would say that's

false

the weimar republic was the only liberal

democracy that fascism took control of

the it's the fascist in italy took

control of a monarchy the fascists in

italy

i mean the fascists in spain to control

the monarchy the fascists in japan took

control of the monarchy

the fascists in austria well there

wasn't really a democracy in austria

before the fascists took control of it

um i would say that's a bad point

because

whether or not the fascists took control

of

one liberal democracy was the liberal

democracies that eventually bound

together

and destroyed fascism um the

oh there's a lot of other shit so the um

the the borders thing for justification

of the invasion of poland and then the

the molotov ribbon trough pact

for people that were so worried about

german aggression it's weird that they

continuously set germany

military equipment oil rubber

industrial steel factory equipment even

helped

train german tankists and build german

tanks within the soviet union proper

within their organization and the soviet

union was only doing this

before doing this until the communists

could reign and liberate the people of

that the germans would occupy why then

as a good faith effort did the soviet

union

round up jews and other communists who

had fled nazi germany

to poland round them up and send them to

hitler to be executed in the death camps

as a show of good faith and cooperation

if they were only worried about

self-defense why didn't they

help the polls during the invasion and

not kill polish soldiers and kill polish

civilians

the only reason the western powers

didn't want a

a a special mutual defense treaty with

soviet unions because

other states which had made up these

sorts of unions with the soviet union of

romania was an example hungary was an

example

every other time the soviet union did

this they used it as a pretense to steal

land from these people

you mentioned that poland still land

from from russia are you really so

bent and are you really that pissy over

the polish soviet war

where the soviet union spent its time

invading other countries again they do

this a lot

invading all of the other countries of

eastern europe unprovoked because they

wanted to stop these other nations from

breaking off of czarist russia

and declaring their own independent

republics

are you just really pissy that they got

their asses handed to them from all of

these tinier nations

i mean that's the fault of communism

purging itself so often

um oh there's a there's a whole lot of

other stuff

um

there's i don't know it seems weird that

that you keep ranting about uh how you

don't actually need the people say

to actually lead the people i i would

say that yes it is fascist language to

claim

that you somehow know the will of the

people and you can lead them and you can

be the most democratic organ of state

power

but you don't actually need a democracy

they don't actually have to vote on it

that's very odd to me but again you know

i come from a background

of of democrats of people who wanted to

expand voting rights to the oppressed

to expand protections to those people

expand human rights

i myself am part roma i have no love for

the old empires of europe

they've really fucked with us there's a

reason why there aren't any gypsies in

france anymore

um again what about ism to the entire

history of europe since bc

up until the soviet union i mean there's

going to be a lot of shit there what i'm

saying is that the soviet union or

communists should have at least

known better if you're claiming to be a

better people

and claiming to be able to better

uh offer people better lives under your

system i would say that again

the monarchist history of europe was

shitty however

christian democrats and other democrats

helped to rebuild europe after european

reconstructionism under

true democracies and they were able to

do it and they're able to do it

and they were able to give people better

lives better educations

better health they were able to connect

them to the wider world in a way that

communism has never been able to do

okay back to you house okay let's go

weimar republic was not the only country

because italy wasn't an absolute

monarchy it was a constitutional

monarchy yet another lie

spain was also not an absolute monarchy

in the time but even if it was

the whole spanish civil war resulted

from the conditions of spain

becoming a republic that's where the

fascist reaction came from but after

franco took power actually

it's kind of ambiguous to call spain

fascist it's i think it would be

contested the fascist philanthropy

didn't actually take power

um and the only evidence you need that

the soviets were worried about german

aggression is that

that's all they ever talked about for

most of the 1930s after hitler took

power

and it's proven by their attempt to form

security alliances with france in the uk

and poland too by the way why would they

fucking do that if they weren't scared

of german aggression or they didn't

anticipate german oppression clearly

they did

the reason the soviet union had to

engage and trade with the germans after

the molotov ribbon trump act

is because a they need the materials

because guess what those same

materials and goods they were getting

from germany also bolstered their

military too

and they also needed to buy time because

again the soviet union was not prepared

in 1939 to confront

the german menace the soviet union sent

political prisoners back

but this was a combination of prisoner

exchanges with the

germans as well as paranoia about

foreign spies saboteurs and

members of the trotskyist ring of

whatever agents

whether they were correct or not the

reason was because they thought many of

these people were spies it wasn't

because they

collaborated with the nazis and liked

nazis

uh these people probably would have been

executed anyway and some of them

actually were executed by the way

um and you're saying that the the reason

france and the uk

didn't want to enter into a security

alliance with the soviet union was

because

the soviet union stole land from people

what fucking land was the soviet union

gonna steal

from france or the uk they don't even

share a border it doesn't even make any

sense

the polish soviet war wasn't because of

soviet aggression that's a plain lie it

was because they were invaded by almost

every major power on earth

including poland who were trying to take

advantage of the soviet union situation

at the time

your stupid liberal theories about

political legitimacy are completely

meaningless it's not about

knowing what the people's will is

beforehand it's about participating in

the question of the people's will in a

way more fundamental in a way

deeper than just holding formal

elections people's will is out there and

whoever can best represent it will

acquire power power is its ability to

seize power and hold power is also

a measure of the consent of the govern

and your

christian democrat cope is meaningless

to me i just have one question for you

why didn't they help romania which

remains extremely underdeveloped

to this day i find it funny that you're

calling me copenharper when you're

defending the soviet union a failed

dictatorship which collapsed

collapsed over 20 years ago and you're

joking at me while i'm representing

economic theories which helped

reconstruct western europe which i think

is

still around hey don't interrupt me

motherfucker

um well i would say the christian

democrats are helping europe

um germany and the eu is offered has

been giving a lot

of investment and loans to romania

to help them build their educational

system to help build their

um to help build their infrastructure

it's been helping romania a lot in the

past 10 years

um the eu has been really good in that

way and it's also been really good at

helping

citizens from those countries who have

the ability who may not necessarily have

the um

the opportunity in those nations to go

abroad and to further their education

have a better life for themselves i

wasn't raised in romania luckily

i was adopted i was an orphan in

bucharest i don't know where my

background is from but i was adopted by

a christian charity and i got to grow up

in the united states

and i'm going from a masters now you

know it's probably a better life i have

here than i would have had in romania

thanks to the commies um this weird

might makes right philosophy i

i assume it's because marx is a hegelian

um

but again this just sounds like fascism

to me you know we take power

he who takes power actually represents

the will of the people i don't believe

that's true

i think humanity has moved past tribal

conflict where

whoever has the most sticks and can boop

the other people on the snoots more

is the the one who's most correct i

think that as human beings

who've gotten logic and reason and

empathy from christ is able or are able

to come up with better systems of

representation than

he who has power gets to rule um

there's a lot of other shit um the

the the going back and forth on the

molotov ribbon truth act obviously the

soviet union is just going to say well

we had to this

because nobody's going to fully admit

that they

sided with the nazis simply because it

was more economically feasible for them

to do

so i always thought that socialists put

you know human rights

and um morals over economic

over economic in increases in gdp and

shit like that

but i guess you guys are just as bad as

the neo liberals then

um again um

you call me cope you say i keep coping a

lot but i mean i can fall back on

economies like germany and austria

denmark czechoslovakia well the czech

republic they broke apart

um as examples for the future and i

would say if you look at the voting

patterns of people

more and more people are looking for a

society where there's more democracy

there's more transparency in the

government they have more of a say in

the government

or they want more independent trade

unions and the people are obviously

looking for a better spiritual health as

well this experimentation with

uh like complete neoliberal atheism has

been a complete failure since the 80s

and 90s

and people are obviously harming for it

but that's why people are returning to

god

uh not necessarily through the catholic

church but then again they would say i'm

a heretic anyway i'm agnostic

i'm a gnostic christian and we're some

weird coptic

sect that they don't necessarily like

very much um

i mean you can say you can laugh about

me coping as much as you want but you

will always be some weird guy ranting on

the internet about a failed dictatorship

that murdered

millions of innocent people and i can

always be the guy who's saying well

my people vote for me i didn't have to

force them i didn't have to roll tanks

over anyone

to get them to vote for center-right

political parties

that were open to organized labor and or

and follow christian ethics

in fact i think the best socialists the

socialists in spain you were talking

about earlier

were heavily based off of uh liberation

theology which is something that we

share in common the christian democrats

and the

spanish catholic socialists believed in

a form of liberation theology where we

believe that human beings as creations

of god

have a right to self-determination and

have a right to dignity you obviously

don't believe they have a right to

dignity because you're a communist and

you think

the only right they have is to be talked

down to by whoever has the most guns

which i would

say is a very bleak view on the world i

would say it's also telling

that the chat right now it's filled with

a bunch of people with hammers

and socialist icons in their names

talking about how autocracy is nice

um but then again i guess that's the

crowd that you communists bring people

who like autocracy and hate the worker

um yeah and we are going to be getting

to uh q a soon so might go ahead uh

positive this will be the last one uh

yeah and we will also have closing

statements and final thoughts after um

q a that's good so first the christian

democrats didn't rebuild europe

america did in the american bretton

woods system erica was untouched by the

war

only country that grew during the war

so that's a complete romania remains

poor and underdeveloped

romanians don't agree with you and

they're migrating and fleeing at record

rates

voting with their feet romania has not

been

maybe a small minority of romanians are

though i didn't say actually that might

makes right you're making assumptions

about my

so-called political philosophy and

putting words in my mouth all i said is

that not everything outside of

liberalism is fascism and i also said

the state does not acquire its being it

doesn't come into being as a result of

being voted in in order to have a system

of so-called multi-party democracy you

have to take as its premise

violent state dictatorship which is an

objective fact it's not saying that

might makes right it just means that

actual will and consent of the

is a much more complicated relationship

with statehood

what can be measured at ballot boxes

there's a more fundamental basis of

statehood

and democracy not the same as saying

might is stuff you said about logic and

reason coming from christ i don't know

why you're preaching at me

not interested you said uh so

regarding the molotov ribbon shop pack

i'm just going to assume since you've

ignored all of the arguments

that i've forwarded to demonstrate uh

that

indeed the soviet union did not

collaborate with nazi germany because

they

sided with the nazis or had something

i'm just going to assume you're

conceding my point um

you can't fall upon the economies you

mentioned germany austria denmark

those countries have never actually

replicated their systems in non-western

countries it's only western european

countries

under the auspices of the american union

and europe euro american imperialism

that you can have those kinds of

civic economies and germany specifically

is a peculiar example because

the idea that germany came into being

because of elections is a fucking lie uh

germany its fate was decided by the

victors of world war ii germany didn't

even have a say in it

um uh so it's really stupid if if

again why hasn't why haven't they saved

romania uh

again your people didn't vote for you

it's complete

shit uh the question is

which spanish i had last question what

spanish

liberation theology socialist are you

talking about you're talking about latin

america

and not spain verify what you mean

uh let's see responding to all of that

you keep bringing up why haven't you

saved romania i can't help that they're

not

the romanians aren't following my

particular

mostly western economic ideology i have

been saying of course that

the you know the eurozone has probably

been doing more for romania than the

soviets ever did at least they're

getting investment they're getting

funds to go to education to improve

their health care

and to improve their um to improve their

country as a whole

and you know it's a working process

they've only been independent since 18

since 1989 it's when they shot shoshesku

deservedly

um so we'll just have to wait to the

future things are picking up in eastern

europe the baltic states are doing

particularly well

um as i mentioned in the very beginning

of this debate there are plenty of

nations

ranging from the czech republic to

slovakia to

hungary to a number of other ones which

are happy with the move to multi-party

democracy which believe that their lives

are getting better

under this new system there are issues

again

as i said earlier the um the communist

regimes have permanently scarred these

places

they will probably almost always be

behind all of the nations that did not

have to suffer under the totalitarian

booth of communism

but we can't really help that you are

the guys who turn them into dictatorship

shitholes in the first place

you can't be blamed on that uh we can't

be blamed for that that's not our fault

we weren't there if we were in charge it

wouldn't have happened

um um why hasn't it been reproduced in

other non-western

other non-western european countries um

well technically it has denmark's a

northern european country not a western

one and denmark was

an imperial territory of the swedish

empire for most of its history

uh and you know barring the brief times

they were also invaded by the prussians

canada is not a western european place

that's also a colony and they've been

doing very well there and i would say

that while they don't necessarily fall

into christian democracy

these sort of liberal markets

open to private investment but also open

to humane labor laws

and organized labor has been doing well

for canada as well

america seems to be opening up to it as

well and we'll see within the next 10 to

15 years on

how well the democrats do in future

elections maybe the democrats pull

through

and they get rid of these idiots in the

squad and they take on a more

realistic more in line with christian

democracy more in line with rein

capitalist system

of you know working on capitalism

with uh with the workers having a better

saying it through organized labor not

just

coming down i understand you get pissy

about all of this

you ask me a lot of things and i

understand that you get bored because

the only thing you can talk about is

your meme

soon to be great soviet union nation

that collapsed a few years ago

um the real world is born

this is debate-free guys you just say

anything that stumbles on your mind um

one i can't help

uh what you're saying about the eurozone

is total bullshit

romania remains an underdeveloped colony

and

oh it's only been it's only been 30

years that's literally like half the

lifespan of the communist states that

are really long-term

dikes saying that yeah generally what

you're saying about eastern europe is

bullshit i don't care what they're

telling you people around or not

the final thing is that uh

should i i don't know is this like a

comedy now you're saying denmark canada

and america aren't part of the west and

the european civilization

yikes i don't know what to say i think

that one speaks

you said western europe denmark is

northern europe

i said oh western and european countries

okay

so should we get to the q a now

let's do that okay um all right so

let me read the super chats first from

tyler durden

what's a better measure of economic

success gdp or utility

um i think gdp per capita and

purchasing power and levels of education

are probably a better way of looking at

this than just

gdp overall so do you want to answer

that too

i actually don't know what utility how

fuck my mic is

yeah i don't know what utility means

where do you went on this huge communist

economic thing and you don't know

like understand utility and economics

that's weird

okay from cg infrared is intellectually

dishonest because he is

discounting the 1956 revolt in

hungary and how many other states

revolted against soviet tyranny

well i actually directly addressed and

talked about 19

hungary but thanks for wasting your

comment uh well i don't think you did

address them very well you completely

ignored the prague spring which the

soviet union invaded czechoslovakia to

stop liberalization

um largely they were very pissy that

once the press was released

they spent most of their time they spent

most of their time insulting

moscow communists

that they the excuse that they were

afraid that hungry would go to the west

after they'd been fucked with so much by

the soviets

as a poor excuse that's like an abusive

boyfriend

because the market is worried she'll

find you you said it was because of the

market economy you said it was

no i said it's because they wanted the

liberalization and the they wanted you

said the soviet union

literally had nothing to do with it you

said they wanted a market economy and it

literally had no

i said they wanted state liberalization

and yeah they did want some market

liberalization that had nothing to do

with the soviet union's invasion

yes it did we can we can play back we

can play back the fucking clip and see

what exactly what you said

i did have a lot with the soviet

invasion they stopped them specifically

to stop

the specifically the government and

moving into a more western economic

system you don't know what you're doing

as they did with

czech slovakia and the prague spring

it's weird that every time people have a

say they want to get as far away from

you as possible

and you're forced to fucking invade them

they weren't asking for fucking

liberalization during the prog spring

they were asking for a different type of

socialism

by the way no they were no they were

asking for market liberalization for

state of the world they were asking for

socialism with the human face

no they weren't socialism with the human

face was dude the broad spring was

it was like a bunch of students with

really ambiguous ideas or whatever no it

was not

like that in france it was first off

alexander dupchek the leader of

czechoslovakia and the

vast majority of the citizenry who rose

up

and were fighting with the soviet

invaders for up to eight months after

the invasion

and his pockets of resistance all around

i thought the government was

illegitimate

um yeah the overall communist state was

a legitimate alexander

was a rare gem in the shithole that was

communist eastern

conveniently an enemy of the soviet

union and the enemy of the eastern bloc

yeah well i mean yeah most moral people

most god-fearing good men are enemies of

the soviet union and the eastern bloc

okay that's what you're saying but i

don't know

that's it from g.a korabov cheshire cat

you don't owe

anything to the anglos in that orphanage

free your mind

bruh um i wasn't adopted by anglers my

mother is an

italian immigrant um i'm i'm pro-isla

i grew up learning ira songs and i'm pro

scottish independence i am not

hypnotized by the anglo-menace

do not worry chatters i'm woke on the

angler question

all right so from tyler durden is

cheshire cat going to make an argument

for christian democracy or just try to

argue against communism

uh well my argument is that my system is

better

i as i said in my earlier statement and

as i'll reiterate in my closing

statement that i think christian

democracy offers a more democratic state

it all obviously our economic systems

offer a better standard of living

living than any of the communists have

been able to offer and

i also believe people are clearly

suffering under the sort of weird

neoliberal atheistic worldview where

people are expected to take narcotics

to feel happy now and i think christian

democracy uniquely

handles that as well okay

um from that robot cheshire cat

why do you argue christian democracy

works because of the

because of the economies of germany and

austria and the likes

by that same metric isn't marxism

leninism

a more successful system because of the

gdp of china

the world's largest economy um no

see my idea is that people are able to

do this under a liberal

non liberal state where they aren't

being tortured by their own government

where they also have better where they

also have better access to education

better health

um a better outlook on the world i think

if you pull if you look at polling

they're even happier on average um so

it's not just gdp as i mentioned my

earlier statement

it's purchasing power it's availability

of goods for the average citizen

it's availability of food its

availability of happiness

um and all of those things christian

democracy has done better and will do

better than communists ever will yeah

all of the alienation

and loneliness and spiritual degradation

that followed the collapse of communism

all of that

is apparently sweeped under the rug nice

one

well i mean hey alcoholism started in

the soviet union

long before so we're not just talking

about alcoholism we're talking about

widespread anti-social tendencies we're

talking about prostitution

we're talking about spiritual

degradation we're talking about lack of

community we're talking about lack of

belonging lack of purpose all of those

things followed the collapse of

communism whereas under communism

people felt like they had a sense of

community and they had a sense of uh

society-wide solidarity um this is not

true i will say that the

the uh and suicide rates what about

suicide people are taking their lives

more than they were

you weren't committing them people

didn't have a chance to kill themselves

under the soviet union because they were

being murdered by the state so often

what so obviously the suicide rate is

going down they didn't have a chance to

kill them

obviously and also obviously there

aren't many prostitutes in the soviet

union because that was criminalized in

like 1935 they're all sent to the

government

under christian society under christian

society

there's widespread child trafficking

what a holy christian society you're

talking about i'm actually in nations

like sweden they've been

uh cracking down sweden's the most

fucked up one of all are you kidding

sweden is a fully atheist

nihilistic state that everything goes i

don't believe in

sweden i don't believe sweden is an

atheistic nihilist state

they do have some problems but i mean

it's not that bad dude i mean

to be fair like i would say that

nihilist atheism is usually brought

about by the commies than it is by chris

which literally not all christians uh

conservative christians will admit that

the cr real christian values were best

actualized under communist states

that is 100 not sure no it's true have

you

have you gone to church no i'm not

christian but i'm just telling you yeah

so stop telling me what i believe all

right motherfucker get the fuck out of

here

i don't care what you believe you're

probably bringing yourself this is why

you this is why i don't i don't

think this is why you sound so much like

the i think you were brainwashed by

this like atheist neil no no because

you're one of them you just have red

banners all over them you don't speak

for all christians there's many

christian communists pedro castillo in

peru is one of them there's many

there's many the communists in russia

are christian what are you talking about

well first off there are eastern

orthodox right i don't they are not part

of my club

okay well i think they're christian as a

neutral spectator who's not involved in

whatever cult bullshit you're talking oh

yeah but you have this

like i i keep getting these pms i don't

want to bring it up but i keep getting

people keep telling me you have this

weird sense of yellow fever where

you're just like get really hard on for

russians and asians for some apparent

reason

what are you talking about do you know

that i descend from wait do you actually

have

a guy in your in your discord who's like

a mod who pretends to be asian but he's

actually white and he pretends to be

chinese is that true

no i don't what the fuck are you talking

about you don't it's fucking

stall he's making me a liar i know i've

been told by two people now

that you have guys actually chinese

before he's chinese the guy that's a

show runner ezra he's actually chinese

you dumb fuck

he's can't look at our fucking archives

he's cammed up before in our videos you

sound stupid as shit

you're talking about a hard on listen

you don't even know the whole

trauma over fucking shut the fuck up you

don't even show your fucking camera

you fucking pussy you don't even show

yourself i know

me why are you sexually harassing me you

can't have my dick

fuck off i think you were i think you

were the one shouting that you're going

to skull fuck me earlier so i think

you're the one doing the sexual

harassment you said some oh you have a

heart on what the fuck are you talking

about you fucking weirdo

what a christian you are huh that you

talking what are you going to bring in

my

mouth what a christian you are such a

filthy disgusting mouth

hey i'm a good christian i haven't i

haven't advocated for

genocide christian guys fake christian

chat

let him know who's a fake christian

you're so pissed right now you're going

after my faith you don't even know what

to say

we'll see who won after the debate's

over we'll see i know hey i saw it in

the chat you've been

you've been fucking pumping your

supporters into

shit i'm on fucking twitch wait twitch

is a public platform

i have a twitch you could see public

twitch chats okay well i the only

channel

fucking gift is the one in my fucking

chat

you just make shit up you're a fucking

liar you know lying's a sin right

you've lied a lot during this time about

lying at all

right you're the one who knows

right there's no because no one claims

there's a polish genocide dumb fuck

not even the biggest polish operation

the polls currently are

are are asking the world court to

legally

uh in the world doesn't agree with them

no one agrees with well they're still

talking about it right now obviously

about whatever the fuck obviously the

russians are not going to allow

everyone to recognize it as a genocide

because the russians were the ones who

fucking did it

it's just like the chinese it's just

like the chinese

you committed genocide i'm talking about

it therefore it's true you committed

judgment

okay so let's move on um from cg has

oh did i read this one hungary was

invaded and revolted against the soviets

the people rejected a foreign ruler

discarded geopolitics how were the

soviets right

yeah a lot of people are bringing up the

fact that you kept themselves yeah i

wasn't

huge go on

i gotta turn up my gain because my mic

is fucked up

um how were the soviets right

the soviets had an option let hungary go

to the west

and thereby undermine the whole eastern

bloc and the warsaw pact

or do something yeah i admit it was a

horrible situation i'm actually of the

view though

that i hold the leadership of um

hungary and the soviet union after

stalin's death responsible for letting

that situation develop

in the first place it was a bad

situation i'm not here to celebrate it

but that was the option on the soviet

union's table they

they had this option were they right

well the situation wasn't right in the

first place the soviet union was

isolated

by viciously aggressive western

imperialism that wanted to kick-start

the german uh and general uh

military-industrial complex after world

war ii for a full-scale inflate invasion

of the soviet union again

after the scar of world war ii the

soviet people

were not going to afford and allow or

tolerate another invasion of their

homeland

yeah this is just not true first off the

west kept offering you guys free money i

don't understand why

you could have at least taken the money

and then done your whole no no we

already talked about bretton we already

talked about bretton woods so shut the

fuck up you don't have to bring it back

you already lost the debate

you lost the debate so you come back and

the question was addressed to me anyway

you dumb cat

both respond to these questions okay

that'll take forever um so we're going

to okay so yeah

ga core above said yeah mods are really

hot for haws in this debate

no you just pissed me off earlier oh

wait so you're admitting that you're

you're a bit biased now

maybe a little trouble what a fishy

bitch

i know um anyways so

so from paul belden haas this is the

second day in a row you got embarrassed

in debate don't quit your day job well

we'll see what the majority thinks after

the debate's over

okay um let me see what else we got here

that we can pull up

jay corbin uh cheshire can't afford a

video camera despite the triumph of

christian democracy and capitalism

i'm a 22 year old university student i

can't afford anything that's just how

the system is made also i live in the

united states

if i lived in denmark or germany i could

probably afford a video camera

we'll live there no i'll you know i'm a

good swimmer i'll get right over there

all right

too many fucking damn fucking like red

rose fucking commies in america anyway

fuck the

i need anglosphere get out of

english-speaking countries go to ireland

where the celts will protect me

so abdullah uh

what do you think fascism has to me

fascism is a

zombie mutation of liberalism and also

liberal democracy

okay and spencer yeah it's weird

nobody fucking cares shut up cg

how us how does infrared account for

stalinist destroying the

catalonia commune during the spanish

civil war as being justified if they

were

moral doing so right it's a lie actually

what happened is that towards the end of

the war

he left opposition to the so-called

stalinists negotiated with franco

because they didn't want

they feared communist seizing power of

the popular front so actually a

combination of anarchists

trotskyists and liberals were the ones

who undermined the war effort and

actually fucked the whole thing over

the idea that stalinists were sabotaging

it stalinists

who were pushing for a broad popular

front to focus

on the actual war effort and winning the

spanish majority while the anarchists

were doing dumb

fucking uh experimental bullshit that

was a complete distraction yeah try

again buddy

okay so from based in red pill ask the

christian democracy how he feels about

monarchy since heaven is a kingdom

oh i remember this guy in the discord um

i do not believe in your conception of

heaven as some sort of divine

monarchy like we have on earth heaven is

non-corporeal first of all so it doesn't

even count

um and so far i i said in the very

beginning of the bit that i don't even

consider

uh constitutional monarchies monarchies

to be truly liberal societies that's why

i advocate for the abolitionism

of the swedish and the uh british

monarch because those fuckers need to go

they're norman invaders anyway fuck the

queen she's german

um yeah so i i don't support

monarchy i support a multi uh a

multi-party representative system

all right so from dragon nightmare ask

cheshire cat if he believes in the labor

aristocracy

um fuck if you have to listen labor

aristocracy is what where you have like

these

i know skilled upper class laborers who

perform their own aristocracy within the

the working class or some shit

i don't know i do believe that um

there's like this so you have the sort

of middle class and comfortable working

class of very skilled workers

and i think um for instance in housing

policy

when it comes to uh like blocking

paying their taxes on housing in

california i do think it is it does look

weird when you have these very

successful middle-class people who seem

like they want to shut the door

on economic mobility behind them and

when they get the chance to fuck around

with their their local politics but i

mean

you know that that's bad but that seems

to be a problem that every single system

in the world has had

i mean no one has been able to fix it so

far okay

um at least my labor

aristocracy and capitalism isn't sending

you to a gulag

from uh grandma too to haas what's your

opinion on the book everyday stalinism

uh these are interesting books i

recommend they're gonna give you a far

more nuanced

far more impartial view obviously

they're still biased

but they're way better than the dumb

bullshit that chetshire cat reads that

says the

communists were eating babies and killed

five billion people

and uh were doing all these horrible

things so i reck i can

i can give my thumbs up that these are

more or less pretty reliable

sources i would recommend the book the

cold war by

aud arne vestad he is one of the

foremost scholars

on the cold war in asia in eurasia to be

fair

on the planet he has a very good book

the audiobook is

lovely and if you have a subscription to

uh audible

the question was for me let's get this

along the question was for me no one

gives a shit shut the fuck up

oh you shut the fuck up nobody cares

about you did we did we do this gold

medal uh

are the oppressed colonized nations

denmark and canada

i'm not sure if we did that one they're

all over the place with these questions

um no i just think it's funny people

talk about these other nations who were

most of their history also

colonies um and talk about them like

they're like they were traipsing around

africa

like i mean denmark was in the northern

wars uh two of her

pre-northern wars were like a backwoods

of the swedish empire

it just sort of got batted between the

swedish empire and pol and the prussian

empire for a while

canada was invaded by the uh was was

taken over and

stolen from the french and sadly as much

as america tried we could not liberate

them in the war of 1812

but yeah both of these even believe it

or not even white people

can be oppressed colonials i understand

that you hate white people

it's really sad that it was stolen from

the french it's like the indigenous

white people of canada must really have

been

upset about that so see cg said that i

missed their

their super chat about um the spanish

civil war i guess where i read this but

i'll just read it again just in case

um how does infrared account first start

no you read it you read it yeah i read

that okay

so all right so i didn't miss it um

[Music]

the third rail by omar has are you

arabic yes okay

now let's get to some of these that i

had to jot down from uh how do you feel

about the

uh the genocide of the kurds by the uh

fuck would you ask me that you dumb ass

what cause i'm

is that another genocide that didn't

exist or was this justified so you're

assuming

you're assuming you're assuming i have

views about kurdish people because of my

ethnicity

i was just curious do you think

you're just a racist what a brotherly

holy christian assumption you just made

right i know it's the gypsy side sorry

um assuming you think the kurds are

backed by the ca and deserved it

i have literally no idea how to

pronounce that so i'm not even going to

try

do you know how to pronounce that um

it's like yeah

it's like irish we'll never get there

shilling for anglo metaphysics yeah well

he's brainwashed it's not his fault

um all right so from dragon nightmare

question for cheshire cat

i i'm fucking his wife what will he do

okay no

that's not a question um all right so

from columbia

can you get them to steer back to

whether

whether marxian socialism is better than

christian democracy

um okay that was the most about yeah i

was trying to debate that but he wanted

to talk about ninjas and samurais

wait can you can you say that again no

uh from adrian's ends oh god these are a

lot of troll questions you guys come on

from dd defeater for infrared how do you

explain the overwhelming consensus among

historians in a variety of diverse

fields economists

and other experts that marxist socialism

is unsuccessful

china has a population of 1.4 billion

people so that consensus

if you're just because consensus means

it's like oh it's a bunch of people well

there's more people in china who

disagree with that

i rest my case i think they're talking

about academics

there's western academics and there's

chinese academics who's more right who's

more or whatever

well you do have the yellow fever so you

probably trust the chinese once more

yeah again with the sexual harassment

very christian of you that's not a

sexual assault you could have social

yellow fever and just like them more i

didn't even bring up sex okay i'm not

i am not of european descent so i don't

know why you're saying yellow fever when

i'm actually a fucking arab shut the

fuck up you dumbass

arabs aren't asians you realize that

right yeah well we're not in europe

either so

shut the fuck up you can be arab and

have yellow fever

okay

you're literally a fucking racist so if

i talk about china

i still want to hear your opinion on the

genocide of the kurds before you call me

a racist

multiple other genocides why are you

asking me about the genocide of the

courage what what about my background

adjustment because it was because it was

i mean comey's like you tend to really

know you asked that question right right

when you found out i was arab is when

you asked that question so please

clarify

i just wanted to get your opinion on the

iraqi history there since there's some

socialism there as well

but i'm iraqi now too and even if i was

are you from zoltan

cat what would you say about persia

making germany being done by military

force

also thoughts on coca-cola sending

mercenaries to kill union leaders

you meet prussia not persia learn to

read blondie

i said prusa all right prussia

the great state of prussia um

um cat what do you say about prussia

making germany being done by military

force that's an odd way to word it

grammatically

i think that prussian militarism

really had a prussian militarism and the

idea of the sort of military aristocracy

that infected germany even into the

weimar republic

was very harmful it was dangerous a

problem germany wouldn't exist without

it that collapsed

arguing for prussian militarism now

weird no but germany wouldn't exist

without that

well you're right but german would have

probably been a collection of more

independent smaller states which isn't

necessarily a bad thing but they

wouldn't be a christian democracy

smaller nations can you hey like bavaria

can be its own

independent nation as well

they want to be democracies well these

people could unify into separate

democratic questions

to be fair before bismarck took over in

the wars of unification

they already were dividing themselves

into a northern germanic states in a

southern germanic states right so there

was prussia in the northern states

states yeah by austria moving on moving

on i think my german history is better

than it's weird that you know it's not

because listen

just because i don't want to talk about

every possible subject in the fucking

wikipedia encyclopedia

doesn't mean i'm dodging it it means you

literally are fucking talking like free

jazz you don't have to

talk about every possible fucking thing

that comes to your mind because it's not

fucking relevant yeah we could talk

about

the rivalry between the habsburg

monarchy and the prussian uh fucking

militarist uh

dynasties we could talk about all we're

really really can you fucking stay on

topic dumbass

can you know the kurds again you keep

refusing to answer that i assumed if it

was a better opinion than they deserved

it you'd probably respond

i'm not gonna entertain your racist

baiting nice try

all right so from um so ask the cat

uh dude if he prays in public uh i do

yes fake christian

uh for has excluding yourself who do you

think is the top

five political debaters on twitch

youtube

uh number one is jackson hinkle

two i only name two number one is

jackson hinkle that i know of

uh two caleb maupin they're actually

really close i don't know

um three i don't know i don't i can't

think of anyone else right now

three i'm gonna say zerka on twitch he's

actually

yeah you beat destiny a lot of times

so britney why are western idealists

always

low down misogynists i don't know

um okay i think those are the ones that

we

got there so okay i'm gonna go back to

the ones that we jotted down

um from dylan blay ask has if he will

debate me on theory and which brand of

communism is better

marxist leninism i will yeah we just

have to schedule it i will

okay and let's see here memories of the

future for infrared if when countries

already have infrastructure why build a

new one infrared stop being stupid

learn something no because you have to

build new infrastructure

if the during the passage of time

infrastructure doesn't last forever nice

try dumbass well you said that why are

they building off of the soviet ones

like clearly everybody just builds off

of the infrastructure no because they

can't

they're you they're they're still

relying upon that decaying

infrastructure they can't even build new

ones meaning the communists did all that

the economy did all the stone walls the

commonly did the heavyweights

the communists did the heavy living and

capitalist society

is um taking advantage of the things the

communists built that's the fucking

point all right the soviet union while

it was growing after 28 would just take

advantage of goods it was no it wasn't

because it actually it actually realized

it actually industrialized and renovated

the whole fucking country what a

horrible example

buying french and german industrial

equipment with grain

ukrainians no no no the primary fucking

union using the primary of soviet

industries

and german machinery yeah of course they

bought some machinery from ford and

other people

but guess what the bulk of it was soviet

made

bulk of it was german and french no it

wasn't that's a fucking lie you just

lying is a sin by the way you keep

saying that but that doesn't mean

it is

thousands of trains talking about after

world war ii you're talking about after

world war

ii shut the fuck up when you had

reparations

from czechoslovakia 27 20

20 to 30 million soviets died in world

war

the innocent germans were defending

themselves go ahead the innocent germans

were defending themselves

go ahead the polls in eastern europe to

defend yourself then when the war comes

down you're an absolute fucking failure

why did poland reject the fucking treaty

with the soviet union

for a non-aggression pact that security

alliance because they didn't want to get

there

obviously oh yeah yeah because the

soviet union is going to steal territory

what a fucking lie what a cope

so from mri 316 as a christian i

honestly think christian democracy is

gay and somebody also asked why the cat

is so racist

um he's a fake christian

okay and then is it the gore above guy

he's really molding a cha

stay mad you are you are giving money to

this filthy capitalist

brittany over here um i hope you enjoy

giving money to the system you hate okay

anyways from

uh diet i don't know one i have to be

really really bad is that

yeah go ahead yeah um from

diogenes for the cat do you learn

everything about politics from wikipedia

um no however wikipedia is a nice place

to a place to

look for sources now i generally look

for other things encyclopedia britannica

is good

buying books is nice um i just got a

really nice one an amalgamation of

essays from european constructionists

it's pretty fun

um i'm going to push um arne

vested in the chat again um grieve that

guy he's great

um but yeah i mean there are other

places to get um politics

from than wikipedia i think it's funny

you're criticizing me because it sounds

like i got some information from

wikipedia

when all of you comments literally get

your entire political philosophy from

fucking internet memes

well he's not here so yeah he's having a

cry in the bathroom

we all understand he's fleeing he's

running away

as jesus said the wicked flee when only

the

righteous follow um

there's another question for him but

let's pull up the ones that we

uh can pull up for you uh from starfish

ask cat why he hates women um

i like women very much actually uh

i've i think i've said some interesting

and

brittany knows i like women um wait the

tsarfish yeah this is our fish guy why

do you like autocracy

you were in here you spent the entire

time bitching about how the fascists and

the socialists need to unite against the

liberals so i mean

it's sort of weird why do you hate women

all right so from memories of the future

for cat does you know how much given by

eu

go back to he's like i'm just picturing

him in his accent right now

um to eu of course not otherwise he

wouldn't talk

this dumb driver romania's getting a

shit ton of free money from the eu

all right it's it's surprising that they

are handing that shit out

um i hope they continue to do it i talk

shit when i go pee

[Laughter]

okay so from full metal question for

haws

do you think the cat won't turn on their

webcam

because they are too busy waging a ppw

for denmark

yeah i think i think so it's like of all

things especially if you don't even have

money of all things to shill

like create this larping identity for

germany and reincap

wow dude

from g.a corp bob jesus also said

shut up ankloid cat john 316.

um he did not say that that is

that is not gospel you definitely said

it

shut up mod right you're supposed to be

unbiased bitch

[Laughter]

all right so from uh

democracy is for cucks who shill for

globalists also

why is cat a virgin at 23 okay

um democracy is pretty good and uh my

sexual habits are my own and

they don't concern you they do concern

your mother though you better watch out

for her

what a great christian because i swear

it's going to be like a racehorse once

the floodgates open

there's no stopping me so uh i think

this might be one of the last ones

from pepe sylvia for infrared is it your

idea that consent of

the govern is self-evident if there is

not a revolution

no i'm just saying there's many

different factors there's many ways to

look at it it's way more ambiguous

people do not become an organic uniform

of a state

strictly by means of voting in an

election there's something

more ambiguous going on with that

fullmetal says jesus would turn on his

webcam

um but jesus did not exist in a time

with webcams

tyler darden says cat how did it feel to

get owned

um to be fair i i was hoping for more

all right this was on

this was underwhelming okay so from

scratch god

yo bucket the imf destroyed romania and

the

what is that future view carcass i don't

even know what that says

orphanages wait that's the name of a

city it's bucharest

you can't pronounce it shut up

okay i'm not very good with these

places um orphanages are the legacy of

those crippling loans

uh wait see orphanages are the legacy of

those no actually the like

the reason romania has so many fucking

orphans is because the communist

government

banned contraceptives because they

needed their women to be producing

in their words more labor units um they

also executed people who got abortions

although i don't like abortions

contraceptives are probably important of

course they they

created this failing government-run

orphanage

no they like him 50 yeah they liked him

they liked him because he was fun to

shoot in the street with his shitty wife

you don't represent romania keep coping

neither does he he got shot he's dead

now yeah and romania is so great

great off for it um all right so

we can do closing statements and final

thoughts so cat won't you go first

no i want hey i opened i have to go last

time no let him go

no i want i want fine on the closing

statement you made me go first and

you've been

and the mod's been biased this entire

time all right

fine fine do it bitch okay no now you're

going last

i know you're going first

there you go you forfeited your time

or you can get on music the regular chat

there you go

um all right so do you want to go or not

cat

wait why is he still needed

damn the fucking oh todd is so pissy as

well he's still fucking biased

stop pissing us off then you know i i

think it's funny all of the regulars in

the chat

oh he's cutting out wait what did you

vote him again todd what's going on no i

don't know

selma i didn't touch anything no what's

going on with the mute

are you gonna go cat or not no no let

him go first he keep muting me anyway so

why

obviously you want me to go keep fucking

muting me todd

my god you guys okay um

no you fucking out houseway just go

okay well i'm gonna keep it short

because i think i already won the debate

anyway

um here's the thing i came into this

prepare to debate

about the topic of rhine capitalism

aka the social market economy versus

marxian socialism as experienced by the

people who lived under that

i made extensive well not really

extensive but i prepared more or less

uh researched about the case of east

germany and i really wanted to talk

about that i wanted to talk about the

specifics of that subject matter

i came here and i was very disappointed

to find that cheshire cat instead of

wanting to talk about the actual topic

of the debate wanted to engage in a type

of debate free jazz

where he flails his arms in every

possible direction

spewing out as much bullshit as he can

think of

under the impression that i wouldn't

methodically and systematically

deconstruct and absolutely blow the fuck

out of every dumb fucking point he was

trying to throw in my direction

and despite the fact that i did that it

detracted from the wider aim and scope

of this debate

which was about talking about ryan

capitalism versus marxian socialism

he preferred to talk about samurais and

ninjas

as far as cheshire cat's understanding

of history is concerned

he can only take a very broad view of

things he never

actually will debate about anything in

particular and stick to that particular

topic

he'll move and globetrot around the

whole world

just to cope and save face for his um

absurd ideological pretension of

so-called christian

democracy cheshire cat is clearly unable

to engage with the rich

and deep history of

communist and communist statehood and um

he it's also very clear he's a racist

and a fake christian

um he's an overall apathetic person and

i think he forfeits

the debate unambiguously

all right cat gone uh am i not going to

be muted from my closing can i have at

least that

todd come on all right

so this debate did not go very well

um so my points have always been

that christian democracy democracy

liberal economics

multi-party democracy and not ignoring

your faith when we move on to the future

because obviously we still need our

connection with god

will always be a better path forward

than bolshevism or whatever the fuck

infrared is spewing here uh infrared has

spent most of his time here

advocating for authoritarianism he

doesn't believe

that democratic states should actually

have elections they shouldn't care what

the people think

because he knows that when the people do

have a say they never vote for his

type of his type of shithole he spent

the times

advocating for the soviet union in china

both states which were anti-worker

anti-democracy

which stopped independent trade unions

which destroyed

independent worker councils because they

hated

the worker and had taught and haaz hates

the worker as well

my system has led to a

more prosperous uh people the checks

coming out of a socialist shithole were

able to create

one of the best countries to live in at

the moment i think they have one of the

highest rates of education

highest rates of transparency and a

higher rates of education and

very low government corruption

i think my system speaks for itself

while

people will always run around and defend

old dictatorships because they've never

had to live under them

and they know that they understand that

they're hard fat they're never actually

going to have to do anything it's just

fun to advocate for some long collapsed

dictatorship because

it's hard to actually do real policy

like christian democrats have

um but in the end i think the world

speaks for itself

when we increase democracy people vote

more in line with my positions than with

houses

that will be the end of my closing

statements all right thank you so much

all right so thank you guys for