DEFEATING DESTINY JACKSON [2021-10-29]

work

yeah well you need to adjust your

settings probably

properties and then it's uh focus right

no other one good one

and you're going to do wait up hooks

device oh that should work which one uh

this it's got solo yes yeah there you go

okay i have filters should i take the

filters off

um

do you have filters on here

you can just adjust the bar

no like i have to use a gain filter but

you can turn the gain filter off

because my microphone a little bro like

don't scream into it because it's a

little broken right now so how's this

guys the audio good

if you want to like yell make sure you

turn it down turn down your

bar you know the bar

yes yes

does it work now yeah

left arm i love your logo it's so spooky

yeah they're saying left audio only

there's a way to do it oh it's this

wait

i don't know how to do it i think i have

uh the filters that i have on maybe

other problems no it's it's uh

filters

there's a way to do it i don't know how

to do it i have these three filters on

is it good how about now is it good guys

is it good

now it's not going to be

the same

no wait i know how to do it i just need

to figure it out

oh turn the camera i'm turning wait what

is the mic coming from

oh that was why is it good now guys

there was a there was something coming

from the camera oh it's good it's good

now okay it's good now

should i turn the filters back on

um it should be yeah do whatever you

need to do

okay

okay is this better guys

this good

we're good

is it okay

yeah uh hold on one sec

all right guys we're going to be

debating destiny

only left is giving audio hold on did i

did i ruin it

did i ruin it

was it better before okay how about now

is it still only left audio now

on adrie

yo adri

yeah

they're saying it's only giving the left

audio

i hate stream labs

there's a

there's a way to do it guys somebody

must know because this happens

go to the mic settings

you shouldn't be on the mic settings

properties something like that

shouldn't be

oh properties we go there it is

is it good now

is it good now

perfect

okay we're good

all right

okay guys

all right so let me set the discord up

hello

okay that's good

hello okay

good

discord settings are good

all right i guess i'm going to be

debating destiny

i don't even know we're debating about

again something about democrats

how do i look guys

this is 4k

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okay

i'd love to play music but this is just

ominous

this is just ominous

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what is my time

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is

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is

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he smelled thank you so much for the

time appreciate you

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is

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look at that

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[Applause]

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foreign is

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thank you so much for the subscribe

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i want you all to know

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okay i can't do anything about this

i want you all to know

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listen guys

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we've come very far

we've defeated destiny

eight times

and tonight

will be the ninth

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[Applause]

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[Applause]

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this will be

the final defeat

of destiny

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there's many surprises in store

that even you cannot know yet

cash thank you so much appreciate you

man

all right he's in the waiting room

here's destiny my opponent

[Music]

[Music]

all right we're gonna start pulling us

in and [ __ ]

debate's about to start

me

aj what is this bird

yeah yeah take them off

they can all hear the bird

discriminating he's discriminating

against my bird guys

say hi

you good

yeah

am i missing something

okay i'm gonna actually capture them

so i'm gonna show

oh i am what's wrong with my video

um

oh adrian

the audio on discord works

voice and video

output is this the right output

um

it should be on the screen you both hear

me

yeah

wonderful loud and clear yeah yeah

happy to have you both here today i want

to thank you both for uh deciding to

join today's programming for the hippie

dippy championship whoever wins today

will be the hippy dippy championship

that award of course comes with a over

300

uh professional belt uh that we have

designed personally for the person to be

awarded as well as many guaranteed

future appearances on the programming

and championship defenses i would like

to thank you both for coming together

today i would like you both to introduce

yourselves quickly uh destiny would you

like to introduce yourself

i am destiny the reigning hippy-dippy

belt champion i slaughtered my last

opponent with alacrity so hard that i

believe that they and their crew left

crying

and i'm here to do the same once more to

defend the belt against these horrible

tanky scourge while defending my boys

the democratic party in the united

states of america that's what i'm here

to do today

okay and now we're going to throw it

over to

infrared would you like to introduce

yourself

amaz from infrared

i am here i don't know what a hippie

dippy is i don't know what a belt is i

don't know anything about that i am here

to prove

marxism leninism in the age of

multi-polarity in the post-covert world

i am here to debunk the lies about the

so-called uh democratic party there's

nothing democratic about it i'm here to

uh debunk the idea that the

establishment is the only bet and the

only choice we have i'm here to defend

the idea of a big tenth third party

and let me tell you something i don't

intend on losing

happy to have you both here and i would

like to thank the production staff for

the amazing titan trons and billy the

fridge the internet legend for the

amazing intros for both of them now

i am going to state the rules quickly so

uh you will both have a short intro

period where you can give your basic

thoughts on the topic in an outro period

which will be uninterrupted then we'll

have an open period where you too can go

back and forth i will not be giving my

opinions on this debate if i speak up i

am only moderating and that is the only

time when you're gonna really need to

quiet down now the purpose of this of

course is for you to debate the topic

should uh americans vote for the

democratic party

and if there's any more questions about

rules or regulations the only last thing

i could say is that afterwards of course

a three-judge panel will decide who gets

the championship felt mailed to them

after this debate so

is everybody ready

as ready as we'll ever be wonderful so

since infrared is the challenger for the

belt i will give him uh first word on

should people vote for the democratic

party

all right so to begin

hold on wait someone's at the door you

said

okay destiny

i can't that's

hi

how's it going

we're going great hello

how you guys doing

good great

what's the question

should people vote for democrats

definitely not definitely not

okay if that's the intro destiny now you

can start oh that was the intro i'll do

my intro i'll do my intro

we should not vote for democrats because

at the end of the day

democrats are uh only another arm of the

uh corporate oligarchy they are further

they're furthering the imperialist wars

they are crippling more americans into

debt

mike is like really like

[ __ ] up

is it too loud

yeah it's like the game is like immense

all right can you hear me now

yes

the democratic party is uh furthering

the crippling of the american public

they're further indebting them they're

driving them into more driving us into

more imperialist wars

they are

causing us to not have health care not

have free public tuition

they're preventing all of the basic

necessities we need to have

to have a prosperous society yet they're

all running under the guise of

supporting these things and they're you

know sheepdogging more people into the

democratic party in an effort to co-opt

the movement and at the end of the day

they only further isolate people from

actually achieving any of these goals so

uh you know

i think if you look at the actual

policies that have been failed to have

been passed but have been supported by

different candidates you can see that

you know they've lied time and time

again about the things that they say

they support

um

and even then you know some of the

things that they do say they support

from the get-go such as

wars with taiwan or wars with china over

taiwan we're supporting public options

that will only further decimate the

health care industry the health care

plan in this country to guarantee

universal health care to all people

it's only going to hurt more americans

and that that's what they do okay

destiny your intro statement

voting for third party is a waste of

time none of them have a shot at making

it anywhere the only thing that's good

for third parties is getting twitter

clout or having fun debates i guess on

twitch or youtube if you truly want to

support things like a more robust

economy that supports workers at the

bottom healthcare that works for

everybody and not just people who can

afford the best private insurance

relatively less hawkish foreign policy

people that support things around

medical science so for instance stuff

related to vaccines or the coronavirus

if you want to support people's right to

vote if you want to support the ability

for unions to exist and if you want to

support a party that believes in climate

change i think that it's probably more

important to support the democratic

party than to throw away your vote on

some mimi third party that doesn't have

a snowball's chance in hell of holding

any effective office i think that if

third parties really wanted to build

real power in this country they would

spend more time actually winning local

elections to build real support for

their movement instead of just doing

this like hail mary for the presidency

every year where they can raise some

money have absolutely no effect of

change and then write a bunch of books

later on about the failures of their

parties and all the excuses they make

for it

uh and yeah that's what we're here to

talk about today i guess okay it is now

open dialogue you two are free to go

back and forth you maybe again so i

think destiny begins from the

presupposition that well the democrats

are the only ones who support this this

and that and that no one else actually

has a chance i'm curious to know why

destiny thinks he knows a third party is

actually not possible given the history

of the united states the republicans and

democrats haven't always existed and

there's actually a precedent in

monumental historical shifts political

shifts within the united states

yeah yeah and the historical ships

within the united states

third parties and alternative parties to

the status quo do happen in the history

of the united states um shifts in the

even the political alignment of parties

happen in these kinds of um you know

decisive historical moments and

i think you would really have to be a

complete you know either a liar or

someone who's burying their head under

the sand to deny the fact that right now

in the in this country we are facing a

decisive historical transformation a

political realignment

and um

one such moment that precisely makes an

alternative third party possible now you

can you know deny and dismiss that all

you want but to go out of your way to

say that a third party actually isn't

possible and that the only choice we

have is between

the republicans and the democrats i

think that's an unfounded uh assumption

so typically if political parties are

going to build their power it's not

going to be a hail mary uh winning of

the presidential election um and then

all of a sudden this third political

party is more popular if there was a

third party that was legitimately

gaining steam

then i mean maybe there might be talk of

supporting them in the future but i was

here when people thought libertarians

could win against obama when people

supported ron paul you know what back

with bush and the green party people

were talking uh there was ross perot i

mean against trump you've seen like

third party the liberty gary johnson

like there have been all these third

party candidates that have kind of

sprung up and they can get like what

like one percent of the vote or two

percent of the vote but like ultimately

they're ineffective um you can see the

writing on the wall you're never going

to have like a a mysterious like

explosive oh my god out of nowhere this

third-party candidate wins i think that

if third parties want to build real

power they should probably focus doing

it on the city or at least state level

before they just try to make these big

runs for the presidency when most people

in the united states consider those

third parties to be a joke okay well

there's two things actually um the first

argument i'd like to point out is that

historically speaking the emergence of

the republican party was precise you

know the republican party uh didn't

emerge

uh because you know they were slowly

winning at the local level and then

eventually no it created because there

was a um discernible

political distinction and difference

that was within the prevailing party and

it was precisely you know by winning the

the presidency that the republican party

was boosted into

relevance and significance historically

so historically speaking that's just not

true third parties or whatever you want

to call them alternative parties have

won historically

um on the basis of these kinds of

so-called hail marys but even if we

discount that fact i personally don't

think people should necessarily rely on

us so-called hail mary i think that a

party does require work at local levels

it does require dedication and energy

and building foundations and

infrastructure and it requires the

maturity to be able to have a big tent

third party this is the most important

part that's going to be able to overcome

you know the kind of petty political

sectarianism that you see so common

among the left and just be able to focus

on getting this third party to win but

on the other hand

if the question is about and we're

addressing this to the audience should

you vote democrat

my view is a decisive no and the reason

why um is because

you should be focusing your effort on

building a third party and even if that

means taking your energy and attention

away from these you know

um

congressional and uh

presidential elections you know if a

third party is going to start winning

locally that also implies a broader

information and propaganda war that

allows you to draw a line of distinction

you can't on the one hand campaign at a

local level and say oh let's vote for

this third party but on the other hand

shill for the democrats when it comes to

the national level in terms of

propaganda and optics so just to be able

to distinguish yourself enough

sufficiently even if you're just going

to focus on local levels you do have to

make a stance when it comes to these

very broad unifying political

moments

where you know american politics is

really defined at the level of the

presidential elections whether we want

to whether we like that or not just at

the level of optics information and

propaganda so if you're going to

distinguish yourself as a third party

you cannot

say oh let's vote for biden or oh let's

you know um swallow our pride and vote

for the democrats you have to take a

stance even just as a matter of optics

in those such moments

so to whomever it may concern right and

i don't think this is going to be like

the majority of the american people

right now but those who are interested

in politics young people who do want to

see changes in this country you should

focus and this is for true for

influencers such as yourself who go on

stream and claim that you know you're

interested in uh seeing all these

changes happen in this country it

doesn't matter where you fall on the

political spectrum it doesn't matter

what your specific ideology is or what

your specific views are you should be

getting on board with a big tent

focusing on trying to build a big tent a

third party and i find it especially

ironic that destiny says it's not

possible when if streamers like him

influencers like him

got the ball rome rolling um him vows

hassan and all these streamers i mean

that would that enough would like blow

out of the water all of the other

precedent attempts within the past you

know few decades to build third parties

you already have the media

infrastructure to build a political

alternative in this country like if you

are yourself a form of alternative media

destiny whether you like it or not

you're not a form of mainstream media so

it's i just find it so ironic do i get a

chance to respond to things yeah go

ahead well yeah

go ahead okay i'm trying to just talk

over um so i i mean like

if we want to talk about like political

parties from 200 years ago we can um i

mean if you've got a political party

that's ready to absolutely collapse in

the united states that doesn't enjoy

like a massive amount of popularity

which the democratic and the republican

party do i mean we can do that but i

mean it took the wig party collapsing

right in like the [ __ ] 1800s in order

for the republican party to like grow

from the ashes of that um to try to say

that like the situation is the same

today i know that a lot of people talk

like oh my god like the parties are

collapsing they're not they both enjoy

like a pretty tremendous amount of

support right now i just don't see

either of them collapsing right now now

maybe that'll change in a few years

maybe the party of trump you know maybe

we'll come out support trump as a third

party candidate who knows i mean that's

anything is possible i guess it could be

the progressive or left-wing movement in

the democratic party definitely isn't

healthy or large enough to support

somebody but maybe in the republican

party maybe we'll see somebody uh grow

out as a result of that but again like

these political realignments happened

like over 150 years ago right the

democratic republican party are like 200

years old i think that any time you're

trying to say this is possible and you

have to reach back like two is a

millennia 100 years like 200 years to

try to point to where this has happened

before i think your argument is already

starting off on an incredibly rocky foot

um you know like politics change the the

power of the federal government changes

the way that we consume media changes

the way that these parties exist oh two

centuries um the way these parties exist

has changed like um

just so much that i'm not willing to go

back 200 years ago and say well it

worked then so it should work now um in

terms of like if you vote on a third

party does that mean that um like you

should vote third party even if that

means losing elections in the meantime

i don't i don't like that idea because i

think that is a very privileged position

to have there are a lot of people that

are hurting right now in the united

states that probably don't want to

gamble the next 5 10 20 30 years of

their life on whatever gambit you have

for your fantasy third party that's

going to come up and rise up and destroy

the united states uh or not destroying

this but destroy the us like political

parties that exist right now i think

that's a pretty selfish thing to demand

of people that are hurting right now and

need help right now

so um and then also in terms of like you

can't vote third party locally and then

presidentially vote different you

absolutely can do that local politics

are an incredibly diverse landscape of

different types of candidates that

believe in all sorts of different things

there's even more variety among

republicans democrats at the local level

or you can support third parties um and

you might even have a better shot doing

so there are plenty of local scenes that

support for instance open primaries

where anybody can make it to like these

top two or three positions and then you

have your um city-wide or statewide vote

like these things exist there might even

be more ripe areas where third-party

candidates can flourish because the

amount of money that you need to raise

is way less and campaigning on key

issues to those geographic areas is more

successful than trying to make this huge

run at the uh presidential scene um and

then even the idea that like you can't

vote differently one way and then vote

another way for president it doesn't

make sense because we saw like on down

ballot tickets there were for instance a

lot of republicans that would support

trump but then wouldn't support down

ballot republicans or there were a lot

of democrats that would support biden

but wouldn't support down ballot um

democratic you know senators or

congressmen so i think you absolutely

can support third-party candidates on

local levels while also supporting you

know a mainstream president or a

mainstay like one of the political party

presidents so you can increase the the

outcomes or whatever group of people

you're advocating for on the

presidential level

for the final thing the idea that like

you can you have to take some stance as

a matter of optics once more i think

it's a privileged position to be able to

wear a political flag

optically or rhetorically rather than

out of necessity like a lot of poor

people are right now for instance that

are helped by the child tax credit that

exists under biden that probably

wouldn't have come under the republicans

um or you know for diabetics that have

health insurance that wouldn't have what

they do thanks to the aca

or you know for people who can feel a

little bit more secure about their

future because they were daca recipients

that aren't constantly being attacked by

trump anymore these are people that

don't have the luxury of wearing a

political outfit as like a rhetorical or

optical device but rather they rely on

these political parties to secure a safe

existence in the united states okay so i

discerned five points and uh i'm just

gonna respond to each of them and i'll

count them up

my hand right so the first one um was

about

the unless you think the democratic

party is today about to collapse i'm

actually curious as to your view on what

a situation would look like

uh what would it look like for a party

to collapse because the way i see it

um

for example we're looking at an

infrastructure bill that's not

embarrassingly can't even be passed not

because of the republicans but because

of a faction of the democrats right i

mean

that's just one example too the

political realignment is so profound

today

within the two constituent parties i

don't see how you could say

oh yeah the democratic party enjoys

widespread popularity well which

democratic party because if you look at

the factions within the democratic party

it is not a unified party so i'm curious

as to which party you're referring to

because unless you can prove that

there's like a you know uh

like unifying support for the democrats

in general like regardless of the

differences within them which is a

completely based like kristen cinema and

joe manchin's base is not voting for the

democrats for the same reason that

democrats elsewhere are voting for the

you know there are really specific class

demographic

differences and the reasons why people

vote democrat so i'm curious what would

it look like for a party to uh to

collapse the second thing you said

was that there hasn't been a political

realignment

uh like the one that happened around the

civil war in 200 years first of all

that's just not true right the democrats

and republicans only share continuity

with those parties historically in all

but name today right we all know that

um the parties have fundamentally

changed and um if you look at the

origins of the modern democratic party

it's actually really interesting it was

because of uh initiatives like the

populist party and the farmers alliance

in the late 19th century and early 20th

century that led

to this kind of unity between you know

the the

led to the synthesis that is the new

deal democrats which eventually would be

um you know

champion the causes of minorities and

stuff and so there's you can actually

locate two

realignments within the 20th century the

first one was the rise of the democrats

is like the party of the new deal the

second one was around the time of jfk

and beyond where the democrats

increasingly coveted the votes of

minorities

and um

demographics like that instead of the

traditional working-class white bass

the third thing you said and

if i've forgotten some of your points

you're going to have to correct me or

point out like i didn't oh you didn't

respond to this the third thing i think

you mentioned was that oh well uh you

have this dream about a third party

but

that's coming from a position of

privilege because what about harm

reduction and the thing i find so

interesting about arguments about harm

reduction is this um

this pre this assumption about the scale

of time now if you're talking about

voting individually

um for a for the democrats in order to

you know reduce even if there's still

going to be harm it'll be that much

different for that it'll make a

difference to real concrete individuals

well you're still speaking in terms of

like an abstract scale of millions of

people so if you can speak in terms of

millions of people at that scale of harm

reduction or whatever why can't you

speak in terms of time what if in the

short term people may suffer more but in

the long term you're securing a better

future what if if you don't act now and

fight for a third party alternative to

the current establishment future

generations are going to be uh more

profoundly harmed than the amount of

people who are going to be harmed now so

i'm interested if you can address this

issue of the scale of time

uh the fourth thing i think i heard you

mentioned i'm

i'll combine the last two so you

basically said you you can still vote

local and vote for democrats at the

national level

well that's true

um

you know you obviously can do that and

i'm not saying oh you're morally

hypocritical or inconsistent for it but

i'm saying in terms of what would be

necessary for building a third party um

yes in terms of this fear of the

information war and optics you can't be

shilling for the democrats at the

national level

and then voting for the uh

then then saying oh let's vote for the

third you're just telling you're not

you're telling people you're not willing

to risk

uh enough for this party you basically

don't believe in it you believe the

current options are the only ones that

releases and you're saying oh that's

privileged to focus on optics um

because you're you know you're not

focusing on poor people and doing

charity well guess what those poor

people you're talking about are the

literally the people who don't [ __ ]

vote so

i don't know why you like if it's about

them and you're using them as your

excuse and them as your shield why don't

they vote they don't vote overwhelmingly

the people who don't vote are not

privileged people it's the privileged

people in this country who go out and

vote the most and spread the word that

people should vote non-privileged people

don't give a [ __ ] about politics they

don't believe in the system and the

establishment they think it's the two

parties are the same thing in fact a

third party would mo probably mobilize

more currently politically apathetic

voters than any other political option

on the table so this is an absurd

argument you're you're leveling oh it's

privileged and then the idea that

politics isn't about information and

optics politics as i said in this

country politics is only information

plus organization that's all it is

there's there's nothing more to politics

in this country but optics slash

information and organization it's not

about charity it's not about harm

reduction it's not about doing things

now so less people suffer why don't you

sign up personally destiny you should

sign up for a soup kitchen instead of

sitting on your ass streaming if you're

going to talk about oh what can i do

individually to help the most people

individually you can why don't you give

your money to charity why don't you work

for a soup kitchen you know if you want

to go down that road and act like that's

what politics is about

you know it's uh it's a complete

absurdity

okay for going forward we're gonna go

point by point we don't have like five

or ten minute statements okay can

okay

i feel like if we do that i feel like

i've lost because now i can't respond to

everything that we said though okay so

we will have you give a three to three

and a half minutes then we're going

point by point past that i don't want to

have essays but is that

because wouldn't he wouldn't he get

basically then he would be able to

respond

well see this you got to draw the line

somewhere in this one sure yeah he

smoked like five minutes first okay so

at the very least i'll just i'll do my

response and then okay so in terms of

what would the situation look like for

the parties to collapse i don't know

exactly what that would look like um but

i imagine it probably wouldn't look like

a record number of votes for both

presidential candidates in the history

of the united states of america um it

would probably look for like it would

look like less and less people voting or

maybe the rise of third parties and

other areas um or i don't know maybe

like an inability to fundraise or i mean

there are like signs or things where

it's like maybe some huge piece of

legislation that caused a fracture from

a party like some people could argue

that january 6 was the class of the

republican party because some people

left the republican party after that

probably not enough for it to happen but

i mean there are signs that we could

look for for a collapse but whatever

those signs are we absolutely don't see

them now it's not youtube people saying

that like oh my god these parties suck

they're both the same we talk about how

the infrastructure bill can't be passed

because of democrats it's this is just

like the dumbest thing that anybody

could possibly ever say we are split 50

50 right now we are fighting for votes

49 and 50 on the democratic side we're

not fighting for any of the 50

republicans that are standing against

this piece of legislation it is not the

democrats that are preventing the bill

from being passed it is 50 republicans

plus one or two incredibly moderate or

conservative democrats that are in the

way of this infrastructure building

passed to try to say that it's the same

you try to say that the democrats are

are preventing it from being passed

shows like a misunderstanding of how our

legislative bodies work um there's not a

single republican willing to come on

board with this okay well then you need

every single democrat to come on board

with it which is really hard for what is

arguably like the largest piece of

legislation it's a new deal it's a huge

piece of legislation um

in terms of again the party is not a

unified party can you provide or show

like how there's like unifying support i

mean there were huge turnouts for the

presidential election but in terms of

like unifying support i mean like a

democrat in one area is not going to be

the same as a democrat in another area a

republican in one area is not going to

be the same as a republican in another

area but if anything this is an argument

in favor of the um of the ability for a

two-party system to work even with

dramatically different voters across the

united states you know democrats that

support that support mansion in west

virginia aren't going to be the same as

the most left-leaning democrats that

would support somebody like aoc or

democrats that exist in california um

and again like your argument you're

bringing up a lot of arguments i think

support my system right you're saying

like the parties have fundamentally

changed over time of course the parties

have a lot of tenacity much like how

marx said that capitalism embeds itself

into the government and also has

abilities to perpetuate itself over long

periods of time preventing the rise of a

socialist economy um political parties

also do as well but this this

entrenchment of the political parties

and their ability to kind of like morph

and change and be a little bit flexible

as people's opinions change that's just

arguments in favor of them continuing to

stand the test of time as they've had

both for like almost like over 150 years

for both of them um when we talk about

like

engaging in harm reduction um engaging

in harm reduction is literally about

choosing the lesser of multiple evils

it's not pontificating about an ideal

third-party nirvana that might exist 20

years from now that there's absolutely

no road map for right now in any of the

upcoming like federal level elections um

i i don't know how anybody could say

that that's a harm reduction when we

talk about like in the short term you

know people might suffer but in the long

term maybe we're securing a better

future that's just like i don't know in

the long term it could be a fascist

dictatorship that rises up after a civil

war i don't know if i would trust the

democrats or left-leaning people in this

country to win a civil war against

republicans no offense so yeah this idea

that we need to throw away like our

current electoral advantage in order to

like do this huge gamut for this future

that we have zero proof even exist that

we even think we don't even know if

there's that much support for these

left-leaning parties in the united

states it seems like people like bernie

sanders would prove that the support

that they believe is there just isn't uh

when you say that you can't chill for

dems at a national level and then vote

for a local third party again you

absolutely can your local politics your

local political scene is going to be way

different than your national level

political scene um i i don't know where

these statements are are born out of

other than just an unfamiliarity with uh

with local political scenes like you can

have local political people that are

democrats or republicans that are wildly

different in terms of what they support

uh based on the national levels you can

totally support different candidates on

a local level and different candidates

at a federal level this is exactly why

we talk about down ballot voting why

sometimes it's important sometimes down

ballot votes diverge from the from the

top of the line vote especially when it

comes to presidential elections um when

you talk about poor people don't vote

that's true but they're still affected

by policy they're absolutely affected by

policy there's a lot of poor people that

didn't vote for biden that are still

benefiting off the child tax credit or

or potentially anything that's coming

from the infrastructure bill um

and then in terms of like you know if

maybe a third party will galvanize these

people get out to vote third parties

exist right now bernie sanders tried

this like we're going to get all these

people who judicially don't vote to go

on vote people say this all the time

we're going to get these people we're

going to mobilize what would have these

people to vote it never happens if there

is some third party that can magically

mobilize or galvanize these third these

non-voters into like new voters that'd

be great it would be like a historic

thing in order to do that people have

tried people have failed um and in terms

of like i don't think politics is about

running soup kitchens either if you want

to talk about like personal charity or

volunteer work we can talk about that

but that's a fundamentally different

question than whether or not we should

support third parties

okay now from now on it's gonna be point

by point i just don't want five five

minute statements going back and forth

so that's how it's gonna be going from

this point on okay uh very quickly i'll

run down the list so the reason there

was incredible turnout in the recent

election was not because anyone believes

in the unity of the democrats and the

republicans it was a referendum on trump

and that's all it was trump defined

american politics at that point people

voted for biden not because they

believed in a unifying democratic

consensus or they believe in a unified

democratic party but because it was a

referendum on trump that's the only

reason you're going to see

such high turnout because trump has

divided this country

down the middle and that's the only

thing that unites democrats at this

point is that they're against trump um

why couldn't it be a referendum on trump

by going out to vote for a third party

what do you mean we don't have a third

party doesn't exist right now there's no

the infrastructure for one no one's

building one or not no one's people not

enough people are committing to the work

of building a third party you yourself

streamers and influencers who represent

alternative media you are not um

giving them a chance you're just

shilling for the establishment while

possessing the very media infrastructure

to make a third party possible so if you

want to ask me why do we have a third

party right now well it's people like me

and it's other people who are using

their media platforms to try and work

for one and get something off the ground

and i just started recently i don't know

how my luck is going to fare but you

already have a really big sizeable

platform and a big audience you could do

wonders for a third party yourself

destiny i'm not saying that i don't

support third parties so that's why i

don't i use my

okay

okay

when you say point by point do you mean

like i can't go down the list and

address everything or

dylan one point point we're going point

by point yes so you can like move from

one point to the next point after you've

addressed it yeah i don't know how like

we think that like the way that third

parties are going to rise in the

americas off the backs of youtubers and

twitch streamers that seems like a

pretty like well look it you can call it

youtubers or twitch streamers and i'll

call it alternative media and but

youtube sounds like a silly website and

it's a silly website on the internet

with minecraft or whatever pewdiepie but

the truth is that youtube and this is

you can read the mainstream media

because they themselves will confess

this has been an incredible platform for

alternative media even alternative media

you probably aren't so

vehemently opposed to like the young

turks for example you were probably a

young turks guy i mean your politics was

probably defined entirely for many years

as being a young turks democrat right

and that's because of alternative media

okay um

people who call themselves

the so-called progressive movement in

the united states after the obama era

its media was media like the young turks

and democracy now and these kind of

alternative media platforms that were

largely on youtube so this idea that

youtube isn't a serious platform for

alternative media well it's just that

this alternative media has first emerged

on youtube will it always be on youtube

probably not but you know like let's see

like who's who's been successful in like

making real headway into actual politics

from youtube right well i'll give you a

good i'll give you a good example um the

so-called justice democrats was an

initiative launched by the young turks

and kyle kulinski and i'm against aoc i

completely oppose eoc but where did they

where did they launch that initiative

they did it within they did it within

the democratic party yeah i know and the

reason for that by the way is because

the democratic party already had the

fundamental infrastructure and the

democratic party was a recognizable

party with a base but we've seen

actually how this initiative has turned

out and we see that within the

democratic party

the justice democrats as an initiative

failed entirely because we don't have

our own independent uh party with its

own independent streams of revenue and

its own independent um structure that's

not going to prevent progressives from

being able to take take over the party

and very early on when aoc was elected

you know they

the whole mainstream media and um

the party itself quickly quickly did

everything in its power to squash that

in its cradle and at this point aoc has

been completely co-opted as just another

democrat so that's not really a good

argument for why we shouldn't be doing

it for a third party but regardless

seriously that's an amazing argument so

i mean like the justice stems like were

probably what i from what i know of is

like the best initiative from an

alternative media platform um the young

turks and kyle kalinski but it failed

were able to do it but they

let's reflect on its failure let's

reflect on the reasons for its failure

wait wait no no wait you're saying

failure but i don't think it's a failure

they've got like four really strong

members that are elected aoc is arguably

like the most popular politics okay

since politics is about making people's

lives better what is aoc done for the

american people that makes it such a

successful initiative aoc doesn't have

the ability to leverage much so we we

have hold on aoc has been bad for the

democrats

aoc has been bad for this inability to

hold it hold on hold on in the united

states because people like you seem to

think that aoc needs to be able to solo

change no i don't but

but but at the very least for example

she could make maybe a mar she can do

like a little bit of help but aoc has

only done harm for the democrats

actually aoc um has been an optics

disaster for democrats and and a

propaganda ammunition for the

republicans at this point like

even as a democrat you can't say aoc is

an example of someone's success it's not

a aoc has been a disaster for them like

maybe trump could have won in 2020

because of politicians like aoc were so

divisive in this country aoc was the

face of

like the the wing of the democrats that

precisely has no chance whatsoever from

uh reaching out to trump's constituent

base and uh this these type of people

that biden himself was trying to win

over so no it's not a good example um

aoc was i don't know i like your your

point is that like aoc hasn't like

solely solo like drafted legislation no

i'm not i'm not asking her to solo draft

legislation i'm asking her to initiate

that we have destiny to finish his point

quick

yeah so like this idea that like she's a

felt like people say this over and over

and over again if you want i guess we

can talk about the structure of the us

government but like i'm sorry but again

this shows like the short-sightedness of

people that have these huge legislative

initiatives and can only get like one or

two or three or four people into office

like you have to build these caucuses

this [ __ ] takes time this [ __ ] takes

real work you guys want this fantasy

world we're out of nowhere you're going

to have like 200 people march into

congress thinking that they're all going

to be these third-party people who spoke

that's not how this works right now far

left like lawmakers don't really have

the leverage they need because right now

you barely barely barely have a

legislative majority in the senate if

that's the case you're always going to

be appealing to people in the middle

that can be lost next election season to

the other side like aoc can make all the

stinks she wants her seat's not being

taken by a republican there's a reason

why people like cinema or why people

like mansion have the have the leverage

and the pull that they do and it's

because they're the ones that exist

close to the center but if you had a

margin of like 52 dems or 54 dems and

you didn't have to worry as much about

that center then people on the really

far left could start making more power

plays you know where aoc is like i'm not

going to support this piece of

legislation until this happens if this

happens and it's like okay well you know

we've got some wiggle room we got 53 52

democrats in here like maybe we can

start to uh make appeals to that side of

the political outcome okay yeah right

okay okay so so this rests hold on

there's two things i want to say before

you cut me off and i'm gonna try to get

it in quick the first one is i'm not

saying aoc has to propose all this

legislation all i'm saying is she has at

least should kick-start some kind of

change within the democratic party and

she hasn't done anything like that at

least for the positive as far as the

ability for the democrats to win over

the people that are voting for

republicans currently now the second

thing is that you're basically implying

you basically make this completely a

contradictory argument on the one hand

you say well third parties are not

possible because the current political

reality is the only reality on this one

other hand you say oh the reason why and

i wanted to actually get to this point

but apparently we can't um kristen

cinema and joe manchin have leverage

it's because there's not enough

democrats that have a majority over the

republicans but that's implying that the

reason for that isn't because of these

objective political realities of

populations in the united states who

will never vote for the democrats and

will stick on the republicans it's this

idea that the reason why it's such a

slim majority right now is because

there's not enough um

politically minded young people who are

going out and voting for the democrats i

completely reject that view i think the

reason why

it's split down the middle is because

this country is actually split down the

middle and for you to say and i really

want to address this point for you to

say that the democrats it's not the

democrats fault because they can't pass

the infrastructure bill is the most

stupid thing i've ever heard

you the democrats are the ones it's a

given republicans are going to oppose it

the democrats have a majority now as a

party they're supposed to act in a

unified way if it's a unified party and

yet it's because of a faction of the

democrats that you're not getting this

bill passed you can't blame the

republicans because you already told

people to vote for democrats as an

alternative to the republicans so they

voted democrat so much to the point that

the democrats have a majority but now

you're saying oh that's not enough the

democrats have to have an even more

bigger majority well how much wiggle

room is there for democrats to win

when

you know like how much ability is there

for democrats to win over these trump

supporting uh republicans to the point

where you know you can keep making these

excuses i don't buy it i don't think

it's going to happen you're not going to

win over these trump people as a

democrat and

that seems self-evident and obvious to

me you're just gonna the country's

divided down the middle

and i don't see how you've addressed

that in any way even how how can you

address the current political

contradiction i i don't know what the

contradiction is so like you say for

instance like democrats have a majority

but they're supposed to act a unified

way but then it sounded like earlier you

were saying that like the democrat party

isn't unified it's got a ton of

different that's why that was my point

it's not unified wait so yeah but so

this is the point right if you have 50

democrats in office not every single

democrat is going to have these same

legislative initiatives every other

democrat a democratic senator from west

virginia is going to be far different

than a democratic senator from

california but the infrastructure bill

is is one of those things that defines

the unity of the democrats as a party

especially in this political moment

where

it's a test of whether the democrats can

pass bills right if you can't do this

you may as well not be you may as well

not even be in the same party if you

don't agree to pass this infrastructure

bill

i guess we can like talk about like

political strategy because that's what

this comes down to like mansion and

cinema are not going to give up their

seats to vote for something that's going

to lose them a future election like i'm

sorry but that's just like the political

reality people seem to think oh the

democrats are going to come together and

vote we don't have we don't there's only

one national level thing that we do in

the united states and that's the

presidential election otherwise you've

got 50 senators two from each state and

you've got 438 members of the house and

then one or two from d.c that don't do

anything

like and these people are all trying to

win in their individual little districts

now we come together under large wings

of who we consider republicans and who

we consider democrats but that doesn't

mean that every single person under that

wing is going to vote the exact same so

hold on cinema well they've got a

majority so hold on cinema and continue

hold on

when you have a quote unquote majority

that's literally a tiebreaker by the

vice president you're talking about the

slimmest [ __ ] margins in the world

trump had the exact same problems when

he had um even bigger margins when he

couldn't repeal and replace uh the aca

like he ran into similar problems too

where he didn't get part of his

legislative agenda passed he didn't get

the wall done like he wanted to you know

um we have a lot of problems with

gridlock right now in the senate that's

why things like the nuclear option

become a problem that's why we have

people like trying to get rid of the

filibuster like i agree that gridlock is

a problem but you can't say like well

look we got you your 50 senators where

is all of this key legislation coming

from because that's not going to happen

because by definition any political

party that includes a ton of people at

the very edges is going to have people

that are more moderate that are going to

have to be catered to when it comes to

passing legislation with incredibly slim

majorities so i don't know why you

mentioned trump having problems too

because it's also my view that the

republican party is ultimately doomed as

well the republican party right now is

trump's party if it's something beyond

trump's party then the party's doomed to

collapse so it's trump's party right now

any republican who's not on board with

trump i don't see having a future within

the so-called republican would you bet

on any of this would you bet on a third

party um is it destiny

here's my issue no no i'm gonna simplify

the issue here's my issue you keep using

this language like would you bet on the

prospects is it going to happen at what

point i get that there are objective

realities in politics like you i'm not a

utopian i don't think that politics is

just based on my personal moral views

and my personal ideology i get it there

are objective realities that reject the

objective uh realities of people's

sentiments and beliefs or whatever but

at what point does will actually make a

difference in politics at what point do

you have to stand up and work for

something and build something and fight

for something that there doesn't exist

any immediate precedent for if the

actual innovators in the history of

american politics had your mentality we

would have no change in the history of

american politics at all there would be

no abe lincoln there would be no uh

franklin roosevelt there would be maybe

even there would be no john f kennedy or

maybe if it depends on where you fall on

the political spectrum maybe no richard

nixon you have to take risks you have to

fight for some things for which there

doesn't exist any immediate precedent

for

because you can't keep deferring to what

is the current reality the current

reality isn't just objective it also

includes subjective realities and

there's a certain point where you have

to step in and actually have will in

politics

so the reason why nobody would vote on

third parties is because you guys know

that they're not a possibility like you

won't even vote with odds right i would

ask you is there a percent chance that

your party will then i'll give you ten

one odds on somebody like wait wait

destiny i want a third party to be built

yeah so if you wanna build a third party

okay you keep saying that like if people

uh thought like you nothing would happen

then build and start that that is what

i'm doing that is what i'm doing but in

order to build a system but destiny in

order to build a third party i'll

explain it simply mutually yeah yeah

okay

let's let's let's let's walk it back a

little bit if i want to build a third

party which is my goal then i'm not

going to i'm not going to enter a debate

what i'm gonna have is uh destiny finish

what he was saying about the betting and

i'm gonna have it bring it to infrared

to respond uh and i'll count personally

how long the response is and i'll keep

it under a minute and 30 seconds for

both of you

okay gotcha i'm just trying to respond

to what said so like um if you want to

build something then start building

something building something doesn't

mean doing whatever gets you the most

views on youtube or twitch because

shilling for third parties is like the

most like extremist popular cool thing

that you can do that's literally all it

is there's no real building going on by

advocating for an extreme position that

you yourself because you won't even put

money on it no it's an absolute pipe

dream fantasy it's an incredibly

privileged position to take from behind

your computer screen because it sells

well it's cool it's nice to make youtube

titles title that or whatever when it

comes to real people that need real help

this type of [ __ ] doesn't help you know

you mentioned soup kitchens and [ __ ]

earlier if you want to get real

effective political change find a local

candidate to support you could do

national level fundraising or

international fundraising in order to

support local candidates at a city level

or even at a state level or work on like

mutual aid programs these different

systems that can exist that can subsume

and then replace these capitalist

systems you know that you can replace

things like food stamps or daycare or

other things you can build these

programs out as well or find a union

that has a political slant and support

them build them up raise money for that

stuff like all of these things are

things that you can do if you want to

affect real political change just

hopping on to the most popular election

that you can to get as many views as

possible and then try to claim oh i'm

doing things to make the world better no

you're not you just want to be on the

presidential election push your

candidate because that will get you

that's what gets you the most views the

most money in the most donations

okay well i have a minute in 30 seconds

so

look destiny if you if people can't like

i said you didn't actually address the

two arguments you didn't address the

argument about national elections

because it's about information war plus

organization are what define uh politics

up and down the ballot okay and if i'm

going to advocate for a third party

which is what i'm doing i'm not going to

tell people to vote for the democrats

i'm going to get people mad about the

democrats i'm going to get people mad

about the republicans and i'm going to

broadcast as best of my ability using my

platform to get people to go out and

build a third party and focus if they

want to get involved in politics and do

that work and they have free time to do

it focus your energy on building a third

party to whom it may concern so if i'm

interested in building a third party

that's what i'm going to say you're

saying i'm only doing this reviews which

is interesting people like hassan [ __ ]

dwarf me in views and um that's also a

pun i guess but they dwarf me in views

and

they don't advocate for a third party

right now so i don't know why you're

saying that's like something that's uh

you know that's something that's only

doing it for clicks interviews i'm

taking a lot of risks taking the

position that i am and it has paid off

but that was based on risk destiny not

precedent this the other thing you said

is that uh

you guys know no one's going to vote for

a third party i don't think that's true

i think when you look at what americans

believe in terms of the issues and you

look at the platforms of the respective

political parties there is such a vast

difference between those two things then

i think the situation is very ripe for a

third party right now and like i said if

people can't vote for their own

interests use the soup kitchen charity

argument oh go vote and help people

personally if people can't vote in their

own interests because the poor people

aren't the ones who are voting those

people you're saying are victims and

need our help they don't vote if they

can't vote in their own interests why do

we have a democracy

okay uh i mean why have democracy

i mean they have the ability to vote but

i mean like yeah but what's the point of

democracy if you're just going to vote

on behalf of other people

i mean like and again like you said just

like all the all the progressives like

what's the point of democracy if you

won't support my people like why aren't

you guys like no i'm saying if you're if

your reason for voting is for other

people and those people aren't going to

be getting out there and voting for

themselves why the [ __ ] do we even have

democracy why don't you advocate for an

undemocratic technocracy in which

destiny does policies for people's best

interests

50 okay so we're going to throw it over

to destiny to respond

okay so

when you talk about how first of all

your position okay so you you vote in

the ways that you do ideally to uh make

a better world for yourself better work

for other people i guess it depends on

why people vote this idea that like

you're voting for poor people that don't

vote i just i don't understand you're

fundamentally doing the same thing no

i'm not um

except

and you're trying to say also again just

like like really far-left progressives

would say it's like oh these people they

really support us they just don't know

it yet oh they would support our

policies they just don't know it yet i

mean like if there's all these poor

people out here that aren't voting like

why haven't third parties made the

argument to them to get them out to vote

it just doesn't happen they don't go out

and they don't vote for third parties

because third parties don't have any

like local or state or third parties

don't attract their attention so there's

like no there's no third parties aren't

getting their attention right now so

when you talk about how like everything

you've done is based on risk not

precedent absolutely not people come out

with extreme points of view all the time

that was your entire branding was being

the most extreme [ __ ] you

possibly could be every single person in

here knows it your entire branding is

being abrasive and screaming like a 2016

destiny that supports a third party

instead of one of the two primary ones

um the idea that you can't focus energy

on like building a third party on a

local level also just doesn't make sense

if it's something that's so [ __ ]

important to you that you think is so

important that you think matters so much

well i mean what are you doing to help

build a third party is it literally just

the stuff that also coincidentally

empowers you to make more money on

youtube and twitch is it the stuff that

helps you build audiences and networks

and connections just like assange does

on twitch or have you actually like you

know stuck your neck out and done things

to support third party candidates like

are there any local or state level third

party candidates you support or do you

not give a [ __ ] about any of that you

just want to hop on and talk about

presidential stuff because that's where

the viewership is well okay you're wrong

on that account i have platformed local

uh people running for local elections

like steven estrada for the communist

party of long beach in california so

you're completely talking out of your

[ __ ] ass and the idea that i've built

my entire brand on being the most

extreme person possible this is such a

recklessly stupid thing to say that even

surprises me coming from you

my tone may be extreme my style

may be extreme but in terms of the

content of the views i've actually

espoused there's nothing extreme about

them i've reached out to conservatives

i've reached out to even to trump people

and right-wing people and i've condemned

far-left extremism i've condemned

extremism across the board i've called

myself almost ironically a communist

centrist there's nothing extreme about

the actual content of my views the

content of my views is actually very

tame and reasonable now

optics wise and that the spectacle i put

up is extreme but that doesn't actually

reflect the things i say if you discount

my views on history and maybe communism

and the soviet union and maybe china

maybe that would be considered extreme

in the united states but in terms of

what i advocate for here there's nothing

extreme about it so yeah they're like i

said and especially that's especially

why there's no precedent for a guy like

me a self-proclaimed marxist leninist

who doesn't pander to the extremists and

ultra leftists um that you know that

that say oh yeah all elections and

politics are meaningless we should just

advocate for revolution now and direct

action whatever the [ __ ] they say um

which is ironically sometimes something

hassan on the low key flirts with but he

doesn't advocate for entirely um

i really forgot the other [ __ ] you said

before so refresh my memory how can you

say you're not an extreme when you

literally are talking about like

escaping both political parties and

voting third-party homes yeah

but because i i think do you think the

united states has an extreme position do

you think we live in an extreme time

here in the united states i think with

relatives

relative to the political climate what

i'm advocating for is very moderate

you think that a marxist leninist in the

united states right now is a moderate

position to be in i don't think i i

don't think right right now right now as

far as the majority of people are

concerned i don't think marxist leninist

positions um have their attention or

have any significance among them but put

my marxism leninism aside i'm advocating

for a big tent third party that will

reach out to people across the political

aisle who merely agree upon the fact

that the current political establishment

is insular and gatekept that doesn't

allow up-and-coming people with bright

ideas people like uh maybe initially

before he his political uh

you know

change of tone maybe people like andrew

yang and all these people who have

innovative political ideas whatever you

want even libertarians uh the ron paul

people whatever whatever you want we can

all agree

that regardless of where we stand

politically and ideologically if you're

not part of the big club which is the

current establishment who's in bed with

special interests and who all know each

other and who all attend their family's

weddings and their families you know

um uh events and social gatherings if

you don't know these people you don't

have a future in politics right now so i

think there needs to be a big tent

people's party a third party

that

is about saving american democracy

from these um entrenched two parties

which have gate kept the ability for

politics to actually give expression to

what the american people actually want

and like i said would you deny that

there's a disconnect between the actual

policy platforms that americans mostly

agree upon and the platforms of the

respective parties because most

americans agree with each other when it

comes to meat and potatoes issues and

that's not people say this all the time

that meet with the issues

you probably should lower it a little

bit

this is uh i don't know what this is not

my mic so i don't

i don't know how to work this uh mic

okay we'll meet you then destiny

continue yeah so

so i mean

i'm gonna hold you to one thing i guess

because you you're dancing away from

every point like you are an extremist i

don't know how you could say that you're

not an extremist like when you advocate

for a third party and you at which point

was i dancing from political parties

then by definition like i'm not saying

extremist is bad or maybe you want to

avoid like the moral loading of the word

but like you you must have some pretty

extreme positions and by your own

admission there are these huge nets that

are cast by the republican in the

democratic party and you're not caught

by either one of those um i don't even

think this is the most extreme time in

u.s history and i would still say that

you have like very extreme political

views like being a marxist londoner is

just a pretty extreme unless you're

going to say that like oh you know

there's tons of mls in the united states

which i think every lefty would shoot

themselves if you ironically believe

that like there's no way everybody knows

this when you talk about how the

republicans and the democrats are

gatekeeping politics i mean like

inorganically there's probably some

extent to this going on in terms of like

deciding who gets to be hosted at large

uh debates and whatnot like i'm sure we

can say this happens but um also

organically this probably happens as

well because the democratic and the

republican party are so huge because

they include so many different beliefs

because it includes so many different

types of people and by definition it's

going to be a little bit exclusionary

because if you want to run as a third

party like chances are depending on

where you are you could probably just

run as a republican or a democrat and

you'd be fine bernie sanders is

relatively extreme but when he runs for

president he runs as a democrat you know

um

the idea that also that like all

americans agree like you you keep

repeating this argument over and over

again and it sounds nice but i'm sorry

but like people have ran with these

arguments over again everybody agrees to

me they just don't know it americans

agree they just don't have mlids in

their head they just don't know it they

just don't know it okay well then the

onus is on you to get these views out in

front of them and prove it because right

now it kind of just sounds like a whole

bunch of copium or it's like oh trust me

they love my platform they just knew

about it a lot of people know about

these platforms they just don't like

them that much um and then finally i

don't think there is agreement broadly

on like the quote-unquote potatoes

issues because we've got these huge

political divides again that you've said

do exist in the united states it's hard

to say americans agree on potatoes

issues when republicans and democrats

are more polarized than they ever have

been when it comes to how to address the

problems in the united states mean

potatoes issues might be something like

you know the earned income tax credit or

child tax credit which are like hardly

democratically supportive things mean

potato issues might be things like who

should get health care which is

something that is supported by the uh

democratic party now the republican

party um you know free education or easy

access to education time

yeah um so you're saying my position is

extreme because i'm advocating for a

third party

well i don't i like i said you didn't

address my argument we live in an

extreme political climate in which a

third party is not something that's so

extreme but if you look at the

election of trump and all the [ __ ]

that's gone down for the past you know

four years or or more

yeah i don't i just don't see it as

extreme you say oh you're extreme

because you're a marxist leninist well i

just don't think the americans are

familiar with what marxism leninism is

or how marxism leninism uh might

actually be something or marxist lenin's

leaders at least might be people that

they're interested in i'm trying to make

the case and show them that i don't

expect the majority of americans to have

sympathetic views toward marxism

leninism or to my specific ideology and

i don't blame them for it i'm trying to

make the case and i think

marxist-leninists need to prove

that

dialectical materialism and

marxism is actually useful in being able

to actually uh maneuver politically and

and win politically so that's something

i actually want to prove in practice

now i think the main thrust of your

argument is basically that

see i'm in a position where i'm able to

experiment you're saying oh it's copium

that you're thinking that everyone

agrees with you wait i'm not necessarily

saying everyone agrees with me but what

i am doing is i'm i'm trying to

establish an ability to experiment with

what people really want and just be open

to the fact that what people really want

in this country is different from what's

being represented to them in the form of

the establishment whether this

establishment is is gate kept

organically or inorganically is

completely irrelevant i don't care

whether it's inorganic organic but it's

actually funny that one of the examples

for inorganic gatekeeping was something

that had to actually be proven by

wikileaks

and that's the only reason you [ __ ]

know about it in the first place if it

wasn't for wikileaks we we wouldn't have

even have known about that so who knows

what else goes goes on behind the scenes

but what was proven by wikileaks exactly

the um the collaboration between cnn and

um hillary clinton in the democratic

debates

sure so that was definitely bad but i

don't think that rises to the level of

gatekeeping right where somebody was

passing off questions it shouldn't have

happened but that that gatekeeping an

argument well it makes it harder for

people like bernie sanders to perform

it was bad it was horrible so it's

gatekeeping they're gates keeping the

party from outsiders

perceived outsiders

sure but bernie also came up through the

democratic party you're right ran in

that primary and both of them enjoyed a

great deal of support within the

democratic party right yeah to say that

he's like an example of like gatekeeping

that's a pretty shitty job at

gatekeeping if that's the case

well they they well the point is is he

rose so much from scratch without any

institutional support within the

democrats and even then they had to work

against them so i think that's actually

a really good example of gatekeeping if

arguably like one of the most successful

politicians in the past like five years

just in terms of like national media

coverage presidential election is

somebody that was gay kept

i mean in that case i don't care about

gatekeeping because i guess it doesn't

work very well if bernie sanders able to

do it off of small donations without

enjoying anything because the small the

small donations were something that were

not anticipated by the political elite

within the democrats or the republican

even when it came to trump who didn't

primarily rely on small donations i know

that but none of them anticipated hey

this is just about money anyone with

enough money can basically rival what

we're doing and they never entertain the

possibility because like you destiny

back in 2016 or 2015 they're all sitting

around and saying ah nothing new under

the sun it's always been the same

everything's been the same there's no

possibility trump's gonna win the

republican primary he wanted oh there's

no possibility he's gonna win the

election he won it oh there's no

possibility that a guy like bernie has a

chance he did have a good chance you

know what i'm saying people like you

have always been on the losing side of

actual history especially you recently

does this make sense because all of the

people that you're talking about exist

within the realm of the main two

political parties yeah yeah i know but i

don't understand why i this is an

example of anything that supports you i

i i don't

listen i i was a

you're neglecting that i was a bernie

supporter in 2016. so i wanted bernie to

win i was fully on board with bernie

i'm i'm i'm just was going to be a great

realignment of like political party

third party's gonna rise them to do

something it seems like like 2016. i

never said third parties are going to

spontaneously rise and do something i've

always been consistent about the fact

that this is something that requires

will not deference to some external

objective reality second of all i

advocated i was a bernie supporter back

in 2016. all i've done is in in contrast

to you the so-called omni liberals and

the hassan chapo people whoever the hell

these people are i am trying to

seriously and honestly reflect upon the

reasons for bernie's failure now it's

not just the establishment it's also an

issue internally that i've also

relentlessly critiqued and ruthlessly

critiqued before but it stands uh

as far as my views are concerned and i

haven't seen you address this in any

substantive way that the time is ripe

for a third party

if the time is right for the third party

then where are they like

destiny when i'm saying the time is

right i'm talking to destiny now the

time is right now i don't you want me to

point you for an example from five years

ago when i'm talking about now we should

be getting up and working destiny we

should work to build a third party now

that's what i'm trying to say i'm not

saying we should it should have been

done uh two years ago or three years ago

forget about that

obviously it hasn't happened yet but

that's what i'm here to make the case

for it's almost like if someone tells

you hey destiny can you go to the

grocery store and get me go some

groceries saying oh why haven't i gotten

you groceries before

i'm telling you to do it now you know

what i mean like your argument doesn't

make any sense

okay

all i'm saying is that if the time is

right for a third party then where is it

i can't argue against this like

nirvanistic like i don't want to say

fallacy but this this nirvana you're

presenting it's like the time is right

it's gonna happen now it's gonna happen

now it's gonna like no i didn't say it's

gonna happen i'm saying it should happen

okay

it may not okay wait wait wait wait i'll

give him i'm doing the 130 130. i swear

to god you will have equal time to talk

i just want to make sure people can hear

what he's saying uh destiny

where are the third parties okay like

it's funny because i accused you of

engaging in massive copium and then you

literally engaged in massive cobia like

americans just don't know what ml is

like if they just if they all if these

poor people that didn't even know how to

vote uh knew what dialectical

materialism is they would understand the

material conditions they live in and

they no i didn't say that you're taking

words out of my mouth

no you that's not what i said they wrote

down that you mentioned i i said i said

i said i said dialectical materialism

i literally wrote quotes i'm writing

quotes

i didn't i didn't say i said i said they

they could see americans just don't know

i see i said i said i can do a

materialism quote i can maneuver yeah

here's what i said about dialectical

materialism destiny destiny

you're taking you're taking you're

taking my words out of context i said

here's what i said about dialectical

materialism i basically just said that

it could be proven that political

partisans who are equipped with

dialectical materialism can prove

they're anything you're saying

can prove their ability as political

leaders and organizers and lead by

example and therefore prove the merit of

dialectical materialism in practice i'm

not talking about you know

disseminating esoteric theories and

philosophies to people that they

secretly care about dialectical

materials and i'm just saying the

utility of dialectical materialism is

something that can be proven in practice

by means of

savvy and

conscientious political operatives

who are using these theories to actually

win people over and uh and win victories

now has it happened yet no it hasn't but

that's why i'm here because i believe it

can happen and if i'm wrong i'm wrong

but to say that i'm coping when i'm

merely talking about something i think

should happen and something that i'm

committing to

contribute as best as i can to happen is

ridiculous if i say oh i'm going to try

and do something

oh that's copium why because i'm enter

why because i'm entertaining the

possibility something that's being

okay

you have 20 seconds left

why because i'm entertaining the

possibility that it can happen if i fail

i'll learn from my failure and and adapt

that's what praxis means but i'm not

going to sit idly and have this

guarantee in an establishment which has

had

decades to prove its uh itself to the

american people and has failed so i'm

gonna keep failing and get better and

how is that cope i don't understand

so you keep saying people want something

that's not being represented by the

establishment yeah what is it in your

mind the third party can offer that's

not being represented by the

establishment sure i think when it comes

to broad issues like for example

uh how exactly are we going to address

this fourth industrial revolution and

this um rapid change in the uh nature of

jobs and work and with the way people

are employed especially not what the

infrastructure bill aims to do the

infrastructure can't even get passed

not yet it hasn't it's not and and it's

been slimmed down so [ __ ] much it's

the infrastructure but that's being

pushed by you're not getting your

infrastructure bill you're not getting

that bill okay if

red do you want to expand it's still

your time so if you want to expand yeah

yeah you're not gonna that's the worst

thing you could have said destiny the

infrastructure bill is precisely an

example of why the things americans need

can't actually be get uh get done

under the leadership of the two parties

or the democratic party right now i mean

it's the worst thing you could have said

debate wise opt you know wow take the l

anyway

um

what you said about um

i was losing my training

how exactly we're going to address this

fourth industrial revolution yeah good

change of nature of drought right yeah

this salad of gang [ __ ] okay okay

infrastructure bill literally aims to

try to address some of that and it fails

to tell me that it fails

with 50 democrats in the senate yeah how

the [ __ ] it's a third party going to

make a measure because because a third

party is actually going to overcome the

false divisions created by the

republicans and democrats and in my view

and i'm going to at least work to give

it a shot unify the american people on

the basis of their what i consider

common interests i don't think that's

division wait what are the false can we

do

the 30 minutes yeah i think for example

one of the reasons yeah the divisions

between the republicans and democrats

don't actually reflect in my view

authentic objective intra

in divisions as far as the real

interests of the american people are

concerned rather there are niche

cultural um

you know propaganda ideological

differences that

completely go beyond materially speaking

what matters uh to the american people

so if there is somebody that's literally

a single so my mom prince is a single

issue voter on things like abortion how

are you to decide for a voter oh that

doesn't matter to you because

abortion is the thing that brought her

to be passionate about politics

what abortion is the thing that drew her

into being passionate about politics

okay

and

running off of a mass movement a mass

popular movement will draw a great deal

of people disillusioned or otherwise

uninterested by the current political

system and political uh alternatives to

be interested in politics trump got a

lot of people to be interested in

politics who other otherwise wouldn't

have been uh bernie also did that so the

reason that you're rambling

the the reasons why people are

interested in politics differ and this

is the explanation for single-issue

voters because that issue was this

ideological and religious and um

narrative that suffice to actually draw

them to be interested in politics in the

first place the question is if we live

in a democracy why are there single

issueville voters why isn't it enough to

be interested in in politics for the

sake of

fighting on behalf of what you consider

your interests or the people's interests

well it's precisely because we have a

very big deficiency within our so-called

democracy and i think a third party

should run on a on the position of

saving america

who are you to say that some of these

social issues that people single at your

vote on how can you call that a false

division when that is a real division

and those issues are important because

because at the end of the day

yeah because at the end of the day the

way in which it actually impacts their

life is not all that significant or

profound you're so then you're

retreating back to the argument earlier

like they just don't know what's good

for them but i'm going to show them so

that they know what's good i i

definitely believe the american people

right now do not necessarily know

or have articulated the language of what

their interests are but i don't i'm not

saying i already know

but but but and this is where you're

creating a straw man which is

unsustainable as far as what i've

actually said i'm not claiming to know

exactly what it is the american people

want all i'm committing to

is a willingness to reach out and

discover what that is i'm just rejecting

the idea that the only manifestation of

the american people's interests is being

reflected at the level of the two-party

system okay so that's awesome but right

now we're not talking about politics

then so politics is trying to secure

politics is about securing political

power that's what it's about if you're

not claiming to know what people want

then you can't have a platform no

actually politics discover what people

want

politics is about you're not engaged in

politics yeah politics hold on

okay wait okay

i just want to say to both of you

if we're both talking at the same time

nobody hears [ __ ] okay okay

yeah yeah destiny stop crying stop

crying doesn't he okay anyway politics

is wait okay i did it okay my major role

my one rule is when i'm talking nobody

else is talking okay i'm not gonna move

on so

since the the problem is when you do the

point by point people are interrupting

more and when it comes to the other

thing when they do five minute diatribes

people don't want them in a giant trap

so i'm gonna do my best to control this

but i'm just gonna like i'm gonna have

this destiny go i'm gonna swallow i'm

gonna try to shorten it to 30 seconds to

one minute instead so it could be more

so destiny then has we'll do 30 seconds

one minute so it could be more point by

point but i want to go point my point

with the problems if i try to go point

by point when i go one point he goes

like you stop whining just roll with it

so much like talking stop bitching

you're wasting time dude i got places to

be

you obviously you don't if you agree to

do this you have no obligation to be

here so when you said that you're not

claiming to know what people want if

that's the case then you're not doing

politics politics is all about like

representing constituents we live in a

democracy unless you want to be an

authoritarian dictator by definition if

you're doing political action you're

doing action on behalf of other people

to secure some type of political power

for you to try to skirt all of that and

to avoid any like responsibility or

strong claims or put a stake in the

ground saying this is what i believe in

and that's what i think they wanted to

just say i'm just trying to reach out

and discover go be a pollster

yeah that's phil it's a philosophically

and politically uh ideologically

untenable view or whatever because

politics is about building power but one

of the aspects of real politics is a

genuine openness as to what uh being

able to listen to the people i mean if

you want to talk about i'm a marxist

leninist to me i learned this from

maoism it's something called the mass

line you don't necessarily begin with

the assumption you know what the people

want you just have a willingness to

build an institution to build an

apparatus to build some kind of

organization from which you are going to

enter into a certain dialectic or

dialogue or interaction if you want to

use a less loaded term with the masses

of people now that doesn't necessarily

mean you already know what they want you

will discover what they want by actually

drawing a base of contact with them and

drawing support from them and and

reaching out to them and media is

probably the most important part of that

media was the foundation of for example

the russian bolshevik party medium was

the foundation probably of every

alternative

revolutionary or third party in the

history of uh in the history of the

world

so

i so like i mean like

i've done conversations like this before

so

it's so strange just watching you hate

watch you talk so much later you say so

much and so little at the same time so

like boiling down everything that you

said before about how when you engage in

your political practices you will

discover what the people want is it

direct contradiction to what you said

earlier when you said and i quote people

want something different that's not

being represented by the establishment

how do you know people truly want

something that's not being represented

by the establishment if you don't even

know what they want yet and part of it

because that's illogical just because i

i can know what

i just thought i just said the one

minutes back and forth destiny yeah what

i said is not a logical i'm just

literally following and i'm writing in

quotes like your very own statements i

guess if you want to address that

contradiction then go how can you know

yeah i'll address something different

that's not being represented by the

establishment but then go on and admit i

don't know what people want yeah let's

address that as i do let's address it

like again you haven't even described me

like what's missing yeah yeah destiny

people that they don't destiny it's very

simple logic you can know what people

don't want without knowing exactly what

they want positively i for example if

someone doesn't want to eat [ __ ] you

don't know what their favorite food is

they just don't want to eat the [ __ ]

you just said something completely

stupid and illogical

if people don't want to eat the [ __ ]

then why did a record number of people

vote for in the last election because

there was a steaming pile of diarrhea in

their view that was the alternative to

that [ __ ]

yeah but they could have just not voted

you have some of the most engaged voters

in the history presidential yeah because

it was a referendum on trump now you're

here and you can't pass bills your

government doesn't even [ __ ] work

you're here now it works

it was a referendum on trump you voted

out trump here you are the government

the government you know what

government's about right it's not about

to own the other side it's actually

about to get things done our government

can't get things done it we can't even

pass a basic [ __ ] infrastructure bill

you won that yeah there was a record

number turnout i was advocating for

people to not vote to boycott the vote

well you got biden in power here our

government is and it doesn't even

[ __ ] work what have you won destiny

what have you won the government is not

about getting things done what's it

about the job is the government's job is

to represent the will of the people so

okay how is the will of the people being

represented right now because this

country is historically divided and

polarized in ways that it probably never

has so how is it being

represented

what how is the will of the people being

represented right now the will of the

people is being represented right now

because half of americans don't agree

with the other half on what should

happen so the government is having a

really hard time getting anything done

but that's what you would expect from a

government that is representing the

democratic interests of the people this

country is legitimately divided biden

got more votes than any president of u.s

history and trump was number two so

obviously there's gonna be a difficult

time if the government's power is

logically exciting so to you the only

the only site that has been a really

hard time for the government

so the only site at which the will of

the people can ever find representation

is in the current established options

they have on the shelves there's not a

possibility for a different product in

your view it's only what's on the shelf

it could be impossible and you can claim

this

with absolute certainty somehow never

said that

it is possible that in the future there

might be conditions that arise destiny i

need you to understand but the problem

is parties that's logically speaking

both in our media and our finances and

in our government and in everybody's

destiny logically speaking for a third

party to rise up yeah maybe you need to

know something about like uh party even

should you haven't even given me like

positions like all when i asked you like

what could a third party offer that the

primary two can your your response was

like uh how are we going to address the

fourth industrial revolution and rabbit

you said you would give me a yang answer

that's not telling you that's not a

policy position that's not like hold on

hold on hold on like some vague [ __ ]

that you could talk about hold on hold

on i'm not one destiny there are plenty

of bright policymakers who want to be

given a platform in this third party i

confess i am not a policymaker obviously

broad narratives are what's going to

define entirely new parties yeah when

i'm saying the something as vague as the

fourth industrial revolution i am

talking about a very broad issue that

has to be addressed in an equally broad

way and politically speaking now if it

was just a matter of one or two poli

it's not a matter of one or two policies

it's not a matter of three policies or

four policies it's a matter of a whole

multiplicity of polities which are only

unified by these broad

uh narratives or whatever these broad

so-called word salads you're giving if

it was just the sum total of opposing

policy prescriptions obviously um

we wouldn't be talking about anything

but it stands right now that we can see

that there actually is a certain reason

why some policies are able to make it

and others don't policies which don't

threaten the special interests

have a chance policies which threaten

the current special interests don't have

a chance so it's almost as simple as

that the two parties are bought out by

special interests

um that's a whole other conversation if

you want to have that but so like when

you say like a whole multiplicity of

policies that are painted by this broad

narrative are what you're talking about

how do you then connect with earlier you

were saying poor people are like about

like meat and potatoes issues are you

gonna have this multiplicity of you know

political

uh discussion with them you're gonna

bring this like broad thing of new

policies like every poor person yeah

broad broad hold on

hold on broad narratives are what give

expression to people's belief that they

can actually address their meat and

potatoes concerns politically so i don't

know what you're trying to say broad

narrative that isn't encompassed by one

of the two political parties no

what no what is it what is a unique

broad narrative you're asking for what

is unique broad narrative sure one of

them is um the current political system

is rigged and it serves the interests of

special interests and not the people if

we want to even have the ability to give

political representation to the will of

the people we need a third party that's

not um already captured by these

entrenched

established interests any special

interests yeah so literally let both

political parties say this all the time

the current political system is right

like the democrat the republican party

right now believes the election was

stolen trump constantly said about how

the current political system is rigged

bernie sanders was a huge candidate he

said that parts of the political system

are written the justice democrats talk

about all the time do they talk about

the two-party system talks about yeah

so do they talk about the two-party

system what about the two-party system

is that something they talk about

uh no so you're well that's something

i'm talking about your broad narrative

that establishes your third party is

there should be third parties yeah

this would be a third party i can't beat

that one

there should be a third party

okay hold on destiny let me ask you a

question what is democracy

uh

that's a really broad what is the

content of democracy just quickly what's

the content of democracy

uh ideally it's some group of people

whose will is being represented in some

way okay so what is that what does that

look like concretely

democracy on its own doesn't look like

anything i mean we could talk about like

a representative okay we could talk

about like well if if

if my position is if my position is that

a third party is the only manner by

which american democracy can be um

restored or built or revived however you

want to phrase it then obviously i don't

it's the burden is not upon me to say

like oh this is specifically the issue

that they have to focus upon but

there are many bright ideas there are

many ideas that people have i personally

think that we should be looking at

the early 20th century and late 19th

century

issue of land reform which was actually

what formed the foundation

inadvertently at least of the new deal

democrats although they didn't pursue

direct land reform themselves it

actually had influence on the

housing reforms

and the housing legislation

that eventually would get passed

especially if i recall correctly in the

post-war era right i don't care what

policies americans supported 100 years

ago i'm sorry i don't think that's

politically relevant right now no i

actually think it is relevant because i

i am also a political theorist and a

theorist so i don't know we don't have

to get into

nitty-gritty but american but no but

but but land reform is

probably the most decisive um

uh

issue or policy that actually leads to

political change historically

okay where how do you know that most

people care about this then where do you

find that support at well because if you

theorize politically the basic social

contract between a given state and its

people lies in a state being able to

give its people some kind of economic

and i don't mean this in like the loaded

uh leftist sense some kind of means of

production just in the sense of like a

solid economic basis with which they can

actually engage in economic activity so

governments if you look at almost any

state in history found its basis upon

this type of land grants or or you know

giving titles of nobility and feudalism

or during you know

the time of the french revolution

especially in

with napoleon i don't want to get to in

the nitty-gritty of this but yeah land

reform is a linchpin of political change

and uh oh it's the foundation of states

whether it's directly phrased as land

reform or not like the stability of the

american state in the post-war era was

sustained by for example those post-new

deal

housing policies and things like that

which gave americans like the minimum of

a stable economic uh

livelihood

can you give me an example of what is

what do you mean by land reform what

time what kind of land reform are we

talking about

well today that could obviously either

be um

actual land reform of giving people

actual like just straight land and space

it could be something focused on housing

like what they're doing in china they're

giving giving grants of people to sink

own

single uh home apartments when you say

giving people land you mean we're going

to do plots in montana where they're

giving that people over california hope

they move out there or what do you mean

by giving people land what happens

giving people some kind of means of

having like a minimal economic it could

even be ubi i you know it could be a lot

of things but it has the ideas

it has to function as the equivalent to

what land reforms have historically

functioned

we have 30 minutes left

before this is over

i think dead forgiveness is is an

important thing too

yeah

do you have a hearing problem

go ahead dylan okay thank you

so

for the next 30 minutes if you have any

points you want to get in now would be

the time to get them in i'm just telling

you this now so afterwards you're not

like [ __ ] i wanted to say this so if

there's anything in the back of your

pocket that you have to bring up and you

want to bring up yeah now would be the

time okay are you leaving so you guys

could get yourself i just want to say

bye steven yeah

hi steven

hi what's up

i'm just chilling you like my outfit i'm

a vampire

nice looks awesome

thanks

i just want to say she a third party

vampire or democrat vampire i'm um spike

from buffy the vampire slayer so

whatever he's british so he doesn't

participate in american politics ah

boris johnson vampire okay that's nice

they're kind of like matching costumes

because haas is a [ __ ] time vampire

over here right

i'm sorry

you can continue you got 30 minutes i

don't i don't yeah so like i i don't

know like uh i

this is every third party like debate

ever like every time it's like our thing

is gonna come and it's the third party

that represents the interests of the

people that aren't being represented but

i don't really know what those interests

are and i was like okay well like what

what like i'm not asking for specific

policies but just like broadly speaking

like what the [ __ ] are we even well what

about like land reform from the 19th

century and it's like no i i said there

could be like what the [ __ ] does that

mean right like you're basically at the

end of the day like and this is the

problem with third parties the problem

is that the democratic party and the

republican party are incredibly broad

they encompass a lot of different

political ideology when you can go all

the way left and find somebody like aoc

or bernie sanders and then all the way

right and find somebody like manchester

cinema in the same political party it's

going to be really difficult for a third

party to find space in there now i'm not

saying it's impossible there might be a

third party that makes the case we come

up and like hey you know what here are

some issues that people really care

about and nobody's talking about them

and we're going to come we're going to

hammer these issues and we're going to

start to gain political power doing it

but you haven't presented me any of

those issues talking about stuff that

happened in the 1900s or trying to talk

about stuff that uh is happening in

china like that's a good thing to sell

to the american people like these are

just not issues they're gonna win with

like the meat potatoes poor people that

you think aren't voting because they

don't have a third party to represent

them yeah i think this whole debate

really boils down to destiny's inability

to look beyond the appearance of things

and actually think about what is the

real essence behind these things like

why is it that americans vote in the way

they do why is it for example you just

mentioned this americans have a negative

view of china is that because they

necessarily do or is it because of a

deeper and more fundamental reason but

regardless of the fact i think it can be

summed up uh simply and neatly as this

um

a we are supposed to have a government

buy for and of the people this is the

standard to which we are supposed to

hold the current american government as

well as the current so-called

representatives of the american people

my only claim is that they don't satisfy

the criterion of a government by for and

of the people which works on behalf of

the interests of the people rather than

special interests and entrenched

interests and insular establishments

which claim to represent the objective

facts and the truth and the will of the

people but in actual fact and in actual

reality utterly failed to do that just

going off of the inability to get out

widespread voter turnout with the

exception of these single you know issue

referendums like the referendum on trump

but even then turnout

wasn't really that impressive as far as

a democracy is concerned maybe relative

to america it's impressive but

if for a so-called democracy it's really

not that impressive

but i mean the problem is you haven't

demonstrated like by for and of the

people none of these things describe

third parties right now you don't have

any third parties by the people they're

all there well let's see that's the

theme

you don't have to do third parties

yeah yeah the difference

destiny destiny the difference between

me and you is that you have the burden

of defending the people who now do claim

to represent the will of the people all

i'm saying is i want to fight for an

alternate i want people to look at uh

things like movement or now i think it's

no longer moving it's the people's party

right now look at big tent broad

coalition parties that are trying to

build third parties in this country

and um

you know and pre and and fight and build

and don't be afraid to risk building

those alternatives now the reason single

third party like that in the united

states that you'd be comfortable putting

money on getting a single federal seat

or two federal seats well no because

it's not a matter of a gamble this is

actually a point in politics which this

is all a gamble you just admitted

earlier so destiny this is the this is

the single argument you have

consistently been unable to respond to i

doubt you're going to be able to respond

to what i'm saying you just keep running

away from him i'm writing it down go

ahead you are treating this reality as a

matter of just this pure external

objective

thing outside of our will i am saying

there is a moment in politics in which

actual will becomes decisive i am not

saying that on its own there's this

party that's gonna make it we have to

fight to make it that way because this

is a moment that demands our actual will

our actual intervention why would i even

be here why would i even be live why

would even be talking about this if i

didn't think people actually have to

do something and actually have the will

to um fight for this if i thought it was

just gonna happen on its own i wouldn't

even be streaming right now destiny

can you summarize that

yeah um i'm not saying something's just

going to happen on its own spontaneously

i am actually using my platform to fight

for this alternative to convince people

specifically politically conscientious

and educated people with spare time to

care about politics

to do this right they haven't done it

yet can you say i'm not responsible can

you state this in the form of an

argument what is the argument here

um can you demonstrate i didn't make an

argument if you want to do that game i'm

not trying to play a game so this is

what you said you're treating this

reality as a matter of pure external

yeah because you're asking like what

you're asking like

you're asking what current third party

you just asked destiny

i didn't hear what the question was so

jesse could you restate the question so

we can have house response with the

question i don't know what the argument

is i'm supposed to respond to that

there's going to be some magical shonen

s naruto figure that's going to come up

that we're all going to put our will

behind like you can't like

you just you just avoided the argument

again

yeah you you just

it's not clicking for you

destiny

destiny

it's not clicking for you it's just not

clicking for you you just said again

sorry oh oh it was repeated you were you

you just said oh destiny's that you're

really angry you need to you just said

destiny it's okay it's just the internet

destiny you just said a naruto guy is

going to appear out of nowhere you just

made the argument again the straw man

that i'm saying something is just going

to happen out there

you literally ignore and dodge the

argument what i'm literally saying is no

i'm not saying something is just

magically going to happen i'm advocating

people to do things

to actually make it happen

right so if you are on the end of this

saying no i'm advocating for this i want

to intervene i want to have some sort of

intervention i'm going to fight to make

this what are you fighting for and when

your answer to what are you fighting for

is well i'm gonna ask people and find

out like you're you're putting a car

before a horse you're already no no i'm

fighting for a have something hold on i

am fighting for an alternative you're

offering it i don't even know other than

these like empty platitudes of like the

fourth industrial revolution the

dialectical materialistic way of

analyzing the language yeah you're using

words you don't understand nobody cares

about this yeah but no american

especially no meat potatoes poor voting

american gives a [ __ ] about anything but

it's it's not their job what the [ __ ]

you're talking about yeah yeah that's

what i was gonna get to so destiny

it's it's not the job

i gotta finish responding

okay can you please

move it over like if you were to come

here and you were like you know what i

think that there are these three or four

things none of these political parties

are talking about this [ __ ] we need to

do something instead you literally

admitted earlier the biggest point for

why your third party is arguing

something that nobody else is arguing

that biggest point was that they were

arguing in favor of a third party that's

it that was the most unique thing about

a third party is that they want a third

party to exist when you're actually

willing to admit that foundational

epistemic circularity for your entire

justification for existing it's like

what the [ __ ] is even the point of what

you're doing right that's like saying

like hey you've got two teams in

basketball we should have a third team

why because nobody else is advocating

for a third team well what's that third

team gonna do advocate for itself to

exist okay no no yeah let me be very

clear so destiny it's not the job of

ordinary people to care about all this

complex stuff i am but for someone who

like goes on stream and acts like

they're like this extremely politically

informed person and this like smart guy

it is actually your job to sit the [ __ ]

down and actually try to think this

through a little bit you can't feign

ignorance and pretend to be some [ __ ]

[ __ ] league of legends gamer which

you are admittedly but you're pretending

to be the contrary so you have to bear

with me and not you know oh daryl

just because you don't like don't know

these theories and you're just an

ignorant person

it's not really an excuse now second of

all destiny um my position has been very

clear you're saying oh all you're

advocating is for a third party yeah but

for why because policies can't even be

passed which go against the interests of

special interests party can't pass them

yeah but i think a third party can

what's the point destiny dylan dylan can

you shut this guy up am i talking or no

i just told him yeah destiny destiny my

whole position is a third party can

actually give representation

enter into contact with the american

people put forward policies and

proposals that are going to work for the

interests of the american people and

there's not going to be special interest

or captured entrenched established

interests which are going to stop them

or prevent them okay now as far as what

exactly that's going to look like what

you're demanding of me is an absurdity

you're basically saying i should

single-handedly draft every single

detailed policy proposal of this third

party without actually

let him finish destiny

he's extremely immature it's okay uh

he's used to league of legends but

anyway um

destiny you're basically trying to say

that i need to personally you know draft

these points but all i'm just you're

saying oh it's so stupid that you're

just saying there should just be a third

party but that's just because we know

the current two parties can't give

expression to

what the american people want not on the

basis of the merit of these ideas and

and the policies but because of these

external um overgrowths on our american

democracy when i'm saying i want a third

party all i'm effectively advocating for

is american democracy i'm advocating for

democracy now i don't

claim to know what exactly the result of

that democracy is going to be but i

think a third party is the minimal

standard by which such a democracy can

be possible

right now i don't think we're living in

a in a democracy i think we're living in

a uh a political system that is captured

by special interests and an

establishment which doesn't represent

the interests of the american people

it's as simple as that

i i hope in the future if we ever do a

debate i really want to go like line by

line um i like i don't have anything i

really stay against you you're it's like

the vlog strat not even actually watch

is better this you're you're saying so

much that is really just devoid of

content okay like this idea of like i'm

advocating for democracy yeah guess who

else says that republicans and democrats

right this doesn't mean anything um you

know when you talk about like oh i don't

want a third party justification earlier

you literally admitted the whole thing

the whole the most unique thing you were

advocating for in a third party was the

existence of a third why you literally

said it right what was my reasoning

attention to the conversation yeah what

was my reasoning if you if you want to

actually advocate for things and you

want to actually win people over okay

and you want to have this broad time

then you need to find issues because

this is where these political moments

start these political moments don't

start with some like random person

saying i'm going to make a third party

they usually start with some problem

that neither like or or not even neither

that no entity is addressing at that

point in time this is where people on

the ground these are these moments of

action where people gain a great deal of

political power is when these moments

come up and there is nobody offering a

solution any of these problems for you

to sit here and say you're demanding

that i fix everything that i give the

perfect utility i'm not saying that at

all i just want like a couple broad

strokes that don't involve something

from the [ __ ] 19th century or don't

involve you using the terms dialectical

materialism and mean potatoes issues and

the same [ __ ] paragraph explanation

it doesn't make any sense wait you want

to advocate for i'll explain the

relationship that you have you should be

able to have some like broad issues some

broad narrative something you're pushing

that people want and you need to be able

to defend it if that's too much for you

then you're basically asking me to

attack a utopian third party that

doesn't exist that might exist at some

point in the future that you're asking

people to suffer real material harm for

right now to try to bring it into

existence so one two the first thing

you're saying you think it's somehow a

contradiction between talking about

dialectical materialism and meat and

potatoes issues when the whole point of

dialectical materialism is to be able to

discover what meat and potatoes issues

are now that it takes a great amount of

intelligence to discover

simple things is like it's it's

basically like it's like almost an axiom

of computers like that's how [ __ ]

computers work you use a lot to get a

little it takes a lot it takes a lot of

complexity to discover simple things i

don't know like why you're acting like

it's such a huge contradiction but

regardless of that to actually address

what you said um

you know like i said you're saying that

uh oh everyone talks about american

democracy um across the aisle well all

you're doing here is meta-narrativizing

the whole debate and like complaining

about not being able to go point by

point why don't you actually talk about

the content of what they mean by

american boxes when i say we don't have

current american democracy i mean

regardless of what the american people

want even if i ideologically disagree

with it it can't get past because there

is an institutional and establishment

impediment uh the special interests and

so on and so on now if they mean oh

we're just fighting for democracy like

what do they mean by that because

clearly i mean something radically uh

different now you're saying oh what is

it you're risking for americans to

suffer so much material harm for

um i think it's very clear that

again you haven't addressed the argument

about the issue of scale

right now uh if the republicans win more

people may be harmed and

that's the argument you may make but

when you introduce the factor of time

and scale like

generations from now or even 10 years

from now or 20 years from now um your

argument collapses what if

by not doing something now

it should be wrapping up soon yeah

um

yeah

what if uh by not doing something now

you're risking uh so much for the future

you know you're meta-narrativizing

saying oh this is just like vosh and

this is just like this

but you can you can uh

stop cutting them off you can really

just focus on the actual content of the

argument you say oh you haven't said

much there's no content to your argument

you're just you're uttering so much

crazy right yeah then i accept your if

you if listen you can say there's no

content to my argument uh in which case

i'll say you just basically conceded to

me because okay so here's a question

you're just refusing to engage with

anything i've said round this out a

little bit okay do you want people today

to risk suffering real material harm for

a third-party gamble in the future which

people the people who don't vote on

behalf of averting their own material

you're making it seem like you're making

it seem like i'm telling like a homeless

guy oh no don't vote for the democrats

and make your life better those guys

those people who are suffering don't

vote

the people you're talking about who are

going to be harmed don't vote

to

destiny

all i'm at let's try this again okay

this might be our next 15 minutes i

don't know if you'll ever answer this my

question is do you want people to suffer

real material harm for a third party

gamble in the future so telling somebody

who would vote one party to divert to a

third party and potentially suffer real

material time for a gamble of a third

party in the future um people are going

to start suffer regardless that's what i

was saying

okay i i i reject the framing of your

question people are going to suffer

either way i know that without you the

democratic party and the republican

party are making the same offers the

exact same material offers to the

american public in the long term it

doesn't matter

i'm not why do you keep you do you see

how you're dodgy as [ __ ] on all of them

because i reject the framing of your

question you're making it seem like

right now is the only um meaningful side

you go to vote right now that moment of

voting is a moment that exists in

history okay and one and one year later

not one destiny not a moment later but

like

almost a year later we still don't have

an infrastructure bill so it's not in

the moment

you don't vote just for right now

you haven't even passed the bill that's

going to affect these people's lives

okay how are people's lives going to be

effective bill passes are you going to

completely change your position on all

of this holy [ __ ]

no i'm not because

they can't even pass the trimmed down

shitty subpar so-called infrastructure

bill that we have now god god knows the

one they're going to be able to pass and

by that time it's not even an uh it

doesn't even effectively

carry out what it originally intended to

if the bill was like 1.5 trillion

dollars you think that's worthless to

the american public

in the long term there's nothing

impressive about people

yeah there's nothing yeah well okay you

so destiny so you want to you want to

use the same standards for both of us if

i ask you a yes or no question you can

only do yes or no and you can't reject

it yes or no but just at least engage

with the question not like it doesn't

even matter the future is long like it

doesn't matter i refuse to reject you

hold on hold on hold on the

infrastructure bill there is absolutely

nothing impressive

about a government passing a 1.5 and

it's not going to be 1.5 trillion a 1.5

trillion dollar infrastructure bill

given the sorry just the

absolutely sorry state of american

infrastructure in regards to like the

passing of time if you look at china's

infrastructure even the infrastructure

in certain european countries

american infrastructure is absolutely

laughable so this idea that like this

watered-down bill is going to be somehow

impressive or a hallmark of why someone

had to go out and vote for biden is just

an extreme cope and also

i don't see why trump wouldn't have also

maybe uh conjured up some kind of

infrastructure bill to pass maybe he

would have had his own who knows i mean

i don't even see what your argument is

here i i i like how you ask

you both have been very good when it

comes to moderating yourself so i gotta

go use the bathroom and since you've

both been so well behaved i think you

can deal with that destiny it's your

turn

you said you were gonna ask me a yes or

no question and you just no i didn't you

said you said uh you don't you agreed

with me that you don't have to answer

yes or no questions because you can

reject yeah you can ask me a question

i'll answer it oh really opportunity to

ramble no i thought what you said is oh

you don't have to ask me a yes or no

question but at least address the

substance of my argument isn't that ad

verbatim what you just said oh yeah but

you made it sound like you were about to

ask me a question so shut the [ __ ] up

dude you literally

i literally quoted you ad verbatim

saying you didn't want me to ask you an

uh yes or no question

you so earlier you believe that um who

is this guy that is trying

i'm a mod i'm gonna just make sure yeah

oh so destiny maybe wipe a towel off

your forehead you seem really sweaty and

nervous just letting you know okay

thanks though

um so

i i the thing is i just i i can't argue

against like the the nirvana third party

where you've given me no positions you

give me no reason to think it's gonna

succeed you're telling people to suffer

real material harms right now or risk

real material harms right now um to vote

for a hypothetical third party in the

future um or and then furthermore you're

going to make the argument that the

democrats and the republicans are

materially offering the same thing to

the american public right now if trump

would have passed an infrastructure bill

like this why wouldn't he have pushed

for that more rather than the tax reform

that just benefited the wealthiest

americans he got one major bill through

and that was it

um that's like saying why didn't obama

push for an infrastructure bill because

as the passage of time changes the

policy prerogatives change obama's the

worst example because he pushed for the

aca that was his big legislation he

didn't push for an infrastructure bill

because he because he could only do one

thing

trump trump did talk about the sorry

state of america it was like a political

what did he do what was his legislative

priority what did he pass maybe he would

have after 20 years maybe he would have

after 2020.

you have one thing all i'm saying is i

don't know maybe he would have maybe he

wouldn't have but you don't know you

don't you don't know for certain whether

trump would have or would have not rich

of you to use the argument you don't

know for certain you're advocating

people to switch their vote from two

confirmed parties to a hypothetical

third party in the future for something

that might be good i'm actually i'm

actually not really just saying people

should vote for the third party i'm

saying people should focus people who

have the time to care about politics

actively like your listeners and and

even you yourself right you sit on your

ass all day and talk about [ __ ]

politics you don't represent my ass all

day you don't but okay regardless you

don't represent the majority of people

you your life is mostly focused around

talking about literally the issues that

i advocate for are literally democratic

issues who currently yeah but but

use my issues but because because

destiny because you're not like someone

who's focused on like the way you make a

living is about politics okay so if if

your life can be dedicated to politics

all i'm saying is focus your energies

and your dedication on building a third

party no why the [ __ ] would i focus on a

third party when i don't know any third

parties that are talking about the

issues that i think most americans care

about you should certainly well you

should you should there there are enough

like-minded people who agree that they

can't get what they seek to get done

through the current two parties and

those people should get together an

example of any of those issues

of what issues what are things that you

[ __ ] i have to scroll like okay there's

there's a few there's okay there's a few

there's a few there's a few there's um

debt forgiveness that's probably the

biggest one that i think can unite

people across the aisle it's the issue

of big tech monopolies and and big tech

uh censorship

um which is you know i guess a cultural

issue that people you think people are

united on issues like debt forgiveness

yeah i think that forgiveness can i

think that forgiveness can unite this

country definitely

okay um yeah i i think i think the

question is do you mean all debt or do

you mean like

just student loans i think well there is

a massive issue of just american people

being in debt right now and um

financial reform things of that nature

of housing reform that there's um

there we have a housing crisis in this

country right and i don't see how the

democrats or the republicans can address

that crisis in meaningful ways again

because the crisis is very complicated

oh yeah it's it's very complicated

because everything is just an objective

reality except when i decided to keep

saying

because because because everything

everything can be explained by me

deferring to other causes except when i

sit on and tell people they have to go

vote for biden if you want at that

moment

at

that moment a particular cause so for

instance we can talk about housing being

a complex issue housing is complicated

primarily because the people that live

in a certain district are already ultra

privileged being in houses so in order

to uproot them you necessarily have have

to act in an undemocratic fashion to do

it which is something that's very

difficult to do in the united states

that's why when you take votes in areas

about like hey like should we expand

like multi-family housing or should we

open like a [ __ ] ton of apartment

buildings well who are the people that

are most likely to vote in that area

it's not going to be the transient

millennials that come in and out of work

jobs it's going to be people that aren't

working

in that area and when you're talking

about voting for expanding housing in

those areas guess who that hurts the

most it hurts the most entrenched voters

that are the most likely to show up to

the polls they're the most likely to go

to their city council meetings so the

most likely to stay there for long

periods of time that's what makes that

issue like complicated okay rap god calm

down

rap god calm down

just because you come to this

conversation with zero understanding of

any of the policies you're talking about

please don't project it on me this

conversation could have been entirely

interesting in like 50 different ways

just because you're utterly clueless on

everything except for these weird

[ __ ] phrases that have to do with

[ __ ] dialectic materialism or

whatever philosophy to talk about

doesn't mean that i came here clueless

to argue okay simmer down rap god

rap god simmer down like you are we're

calm down i'm on the ground talking

about listen it's not eight miles we're

not on eight mile we're on twitch okay

so calm down i have to talk fast because

listen you have to chill you have to

chill if you want there you go if you

want if you're interested in dialectical

materialism uh dm me and i'll set up i

can educate you and you can be my

student so i don't know why you keep

bringing it up you seem interested in

the ideas of dialectical materialism

yeah one sec and uh it should be like

five minutes

and uh

regard and you said okay i agree that

the housing crisis obviously it's

complex but

can the way we address like is the

inability for us to address it because

of that complexity is what i reject yes

no i reject that i fundamentally reject

the third party then tell me how you

would go about doing it then i'll wait

yeah a third party can have a general

housing reform whose main linchpin whose

main policy prerogative is to make sure

americans can have affordable housing

and it can do that at the federal level

to ensure

that um at these local levels and with

all these differences between for

example high housing prices and these

issues of zoning can be addressed like

for example i know you don't like me

mentioning china but when china engages

in five-year plans for example i'm not

saying we're going to have our own but

it's just a broad policy prerogative it

does take into account the various local

realities and complexities that make it

impossible to just pass one bill that's

going to be a catch-all to solve like

the whole of the geographic and

demographic issues surrounding housing

reform so i don't see like how your

argument is relevant the fact that we

have a housing crisis in this country

isn't only because

um

uh the reasons you mentioned or because

like oh yeah uh it's only about

millennials who want to move to big

cities it's it's a it's about people who

don't have a

clear future of being able to have their

own homes and raise their own families

dylan you guys just like it's like the

perfect third party like debate like you

just you speak in these like useless

empty platitudes like well the way that

you do it is by passing a bill that

takes into account all those

complexities wow just okay so how are

the democrats i just couldn't think

so you're saying the housing crisis

cannot be solved wait

i gave you an interrupt time to speak

guess who's going to have his

interrupted time speaking then you're

both going to do outros because we're

going to wrap up uninterrupted okay so

destiny

um i just want to say that i also

support really huge complex bills that

just solve all the complex issues and i

think those bills are awesome i just

want to be

i just want to make my position known on

that okay that's all i got okay

yes it is glitching out into the outros

i'll just do my outro yep we're good

okay yeah as an outro i'm just going to

address the point i never said that

you're going to be able to uh create a

bill that's going to solve all problems

all i'm doing is saying one of the

reasons we have housing crisis in this

country or at least one of the reasons

that the current political establishment

is inept in being able to solve that

crisis is because it's captured by

special interests like the real estate

mughals and oligarchs and and financial

institutions and things like blackrock

and a third party isn't going to be

handicapped by those special interests

in being able to address the housing

crisis so that's just one example of

what i'm where i'm coming from when i'm

talking about this a third party isn't a

guarantee all it means is you have a

[ __ ] chance i have never preached any

guarantee whatsoever all i've advocated

for is a god damn fighting chance for

the american people that's all

destiny and then we'll have the vote uh

the judges will vote

um when you talk to people about third

parties usually they're pie in the sky

dreams people don't have a good

understanding of how the government

works of how policies work of why some

of these issues are so complicated uh i

can empathize i feel the same way i was

a big ron paul supporter abolished the

fed and all that [ __ ] when i was a

freshman in college uh it's really cool

to think that there are these really

complicated issues that can just be

solved with one sweeping you know

federal legislative initiative but

unfortunately as you grow older and you

look at why things are the way they are

you realize these issues are really

complicated they involve you know

multiple people fighting on multiple

sides of issues in order to get like

things done slowly over time that's how

the american system is built and so long

as we genuinely remain divided as

americans on a lot of these issues the

government will necessarily remain slow

moving when it comes to solving these

issues we don't all agree on how to

solve these issues the same way in the

united states that's why there's such a

polarization of the parties that's why

there's so much gridlock in congress and

hopefully in the future this changes but

i know for a fact that the thing that

won't change it is [ __ ] third parties

okay dylan i actually have to go so

do so i don't really care about the

belt or whatever so

we good

uh if you would like to leave you can

leave okay for sure yeah see you later

bye-bye

so

okay um

i gotta go guys uh

yeah i'm already running late here i

thought this was gonna be only like an

hour

but

i'm satisfied with the outcome of that

debate i'm gonna be uploading it to the

youtube

um

yeah

so

[ __ ] what am i thinking

um

is there anyone on twitch i want to read

guy who's live on twitch guys who should

i raid

hello

[Music]

okay um

i don't know what the [ __ ] i'm gonna do

i'm just gonna raise zurich yeah i'm

gonna rate zirco

i'm just going to raise zircon [ __ ] it

um

yeah i will

guys it's been great i wish i could

stick around longer it's been really fun

um

dude destiny's not really hard to beat

in the debate honestly he's

he's pretty much says the same [ __ ] he

always did

um

yeah you don't put up much of a fight

yeah that was bad yeah

are you still on

yeah yeah

[ __ ]

you guys

easy dub easy dove it's all cult easy

dog

easy [ __ ] dub

i mean

listen dude i didn't go in this

expecting to lose you know so that's

just you know that's all i gotta say on

that but um

yeah i'm uh

we're gonna get ready and go do this but

uh

yeah

what about the party we're gonna be

going to the party now okay

um

all right guys ah is there any closing

words i want to say guys tomorrow we're

gonna be doing irls

um

we're going to be doing irls tomorrow

we're going to be doing more austin

content hope you guys like the irl

content today it was actually really

cool

um

did i

anything else i want to say

anything else i want to say

ah [ __ ] it's too late