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about them. So we have no interest in that. But on the other hand, if we were to seize power,

all unilateral immigration would end, mass immigration would end. There would be a policy of

multilateral agreements between countries

to negotiate the flows of populations in a rational and controlled way that takes into account

consequences. Would you support deportation then? It depends on what you're talking about

for criminals

absolutely for counter-revolutionaries

absolutely

yeah um

I don't I don't actually foresee this to be a big issue

for communists and I'll tell you, because I think that people who just come to this country purely for economic reasons or fleeing conflict wouldn't need to be deported, because if there was ever a civil war here, which is what a communist, you know, event would entail, they would leave because there's going to, shit is going to pop off here. And they're not going to, if they're not willing to, I think that Americans will be defined by the next revolution.

Whoever is willing to actually stay here and fight for this country,

and when I say fight for the country, I mean fight for the revolutionary forces,

they will be true Americans and those who leave

will

have proven that they're not

really committed to the history

of this nation and

with regard to that

who knows who will stay and who will leave but

do you think immigration, like you said,

it leads to all of these social problems?

I'm not denying that at all. But do you think it

leads us further to, like,

this moment in history?

Do I think what? Immigration leads us to what to what like to a pinnacle moment of history of where like the conditions for revolution are there no I don't think I think it's a symptom of neoliberalism you know it's a symptom of the breakdown of the integrity of the welfare state and the labor movement.

And, you know, it's a type of, it's really a type of chaos.

It's like the phenomenon of mass immigration serves the purpose of weakening the cause of labor and the movement of labor, not even just the organized labor movement, but even the unorganized and implicit standards of living that is expected by the American worker.

And it's an economic weapon with regard. that is expected by the American worker.

It's an economic weapon with regard to that.

But wouldn't the way

capitalism unfolds also

lead to the conditions of revolution

at some point?

I think the era of revolution at some point. I think the era of

revolutions in the sense

of what happened in the October revolution

and the French

revolution, I don't think we live in that

era anymore. I think we live in an era of

civil wars. I think we live in that era anymore. I think we live in an era of civil wars.

I think we live in an era where states will break down in an operational capacity.

And uh, Suez! What's up, bro? States will break down in an operational capacity.

And, you know

more countries will probably look like Haiti

where there will be warlords

and gangs that just fill

the vacuum. I had a Mexican

communists tell me this recently. It was

a good critique that he made.

I was glad I got to talk to this guy.

But he said, he made the point that there's only been one revolution that really started with a communist party setting out to create revolution.

It always comes from some kind of societal breakdown.

What revolution was that?

I think it was either, I think it was China or Russia?

Because that even that's not really true.

Because in China there was

the warlord era where there was

practically no central state. And then there was the war with era where there was practically no central state

and then there was the war with Japan

which severely so even then

it wasn't true you know

right and it's not also happen in Cuba

like uh... that's called like

talking about like creating the conditions

no because they didn't start out as communists.

The communists and Cuba

actually hated Che. They thought he was

adventuristic. They thought he was

egotistical and individualistic

and they, you know, didn't

believe that the peasants could constitute a revolutionary

force. Yeah, okay force yeah okay so sorry just

to get back to like immigration um so there was this really interesting letter like written by lennon

i forget the exact uh title of it but i know you're talking about. Yeah,

where he says that like immigration

accelerates the breaking

down of national differences

and yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yes,

yes, yes. And so

would you say that like this is like the

conditions have changed?

Yeah, they definitely have.

I can explain precisely how they have to.

So Lenin was writing at the time of the second international and then later the breakdown of the second international

respectively because i think he commented on the issue twice if i'm correct

first time is when he was reflecting on

the specific congress of the second international i forget forget. Well, anyway, the Second International

more or less believed that the proletarian revolution would come as an international and

simultaneous movement of the entire global proletariat, which will in one swoop overthrow global capitalism and establish a kind of new, you know, global

proletarian dictatorship that is centered in the advanced capitalist countries, which is Western Europe.

So there is this expectations that, you know, there's going to be this imminent world revolution, not necessarily imminent in the sense it's just about to happen, but that's what's on the horizon, more or less. That's what is to be anticipated, right? And at nations, you know, they're going to be a thing of the past. And, you know, the events of the first imperialist war, the breakdown of the second international, it disproved this thesis, the experience of the October Revolution, it disproved this thesis.

The experience of the October Revolution, it disproved this thesis.

The proletarian revolution did happen.

It happened in Russia. It didn't spread to the whole world, let alone Europe and Germany and

England where they thought it would...

Well, it kind of did spread to Germany, but it ultimately failed.

It spread to Bavaria specifically, and that was a very...

That had no chance of, you know, becoming a...

Something that could, you know, take over the whole German state

but in any case

yeah in Hungary and whatever

but those see

even those were like made on the expectation

that yeah the Red Army is going to get here soon

and it's going to and it never happened

right and so there was a lot of hype and the hype

you know when there's hype people take risks more but then it was shown that this was a folly

so um that thesis was disproven by practice.

And then in the 1930s, we had the rise of fascism.

And the rise of fascism forced communists around the world to take a more realistic appraisal about the relationship communist parties will have to the nations they're working within where you know you're not necessarily just

permanently occupying a position of you know complete antagonism and hostility to the entirety of society and trying to overthrow it at any given moment there's also this kind of emergence of the idea of the popular front,

where the communists need to unite with the labor movement,

and they need to unite with even to some extent those who are willing,

the social democratic movement,

and more or less create a kind of bulwark of

hegemony within civil society to defend the gains of the workers and consolidate them and

launch and from that basis you know create the context for the eventual victory of communism,

not to mention to fight the rise of fascism.

So that was a kind of successful strategy, and it led to, you know, very powerful labor movements

across the world, even

in Europe as well.

And, you know, the

at that point,

it was clear that

within the class war, when it came to the strategy of immigration,

the idea that immigration is going to hasten this kind of simultaneous global revolution,

it just became not

it wasn't

it wasn't something people were anticipating

anymore it was more kind of like this is a specific

tactic within the class struggle and we need to fight it on our own

as well and there there isn't going to be this imminent simultaneous world revolution

that is on the horizon. It's going to erase, put it this way. Communists eventually realize

they have a lot of work to do when it comes to developing leadership over their nations, respectively. They can't leapfrog this process and just kind of

jump into a melting pot of all nations mixing together. There's going to be a long process of

assuming leadership of your nation, defending its history and developing

that history and the process

of, you know,

the dissolution of national antagonisms

will be a very, very long one.

Such as what

experience has shown us, at least.

Okay, but would you say that these, like, immigrants coming over to the United States that do cause, like, like, you said, like, cultural, lack of, like, cultural cohesion?

Like, do you think immigrants play like a crucial

role in the revolution?

Or just like organizing?

No.

No.

No. And by the way, we're talking about mass immigration.

In the case of mass immigration,

people are coming here to live a better life.

They're not coming here to, you know, die for the cause of the proletariat. They're coming here to live a better life. They're not coming here to, you know, die for the cause of the

proletariat. They're coming here for... But in a lot of ways, they live in very precarious situations.

Like, I'm sure you would agree with that. Right, which is why, you know, but at the same time they still regard it as worth it to stay because

and send money home even sometimes because they're making more here relative to the purchasing power

i think if they want to they can i mean if they there are people who like come from Cuba thinking America's the

freaking land of free and land up on the streets.

And if they want to dedicate their life to fighting to change this country, that's fine.

But what Hodz is saying is true, most of them come here looking for a better life,

come here because they don't see any hope in their own country and just are trying to find a better place for their family, which isn't the best consciousness for communists.

I mean, yeah, yeah, like, you're absolutely true, but, like, a lot of people come to, like, the United States and they're, like, severely disappointed and they continue to like live in poverty in very like precarious situations and like obviously like if you're like undocumented you would have like less of a voice right like you I'm gonna ask a stupid question but like, then why don't they go back home?

Sorry?

Then why wouldn't they go back home?

I mean, I mean, like, I guess, like, relatively it might be better, but I mean, like, are you denying that, like, a lot of, like, immigrants do live

in poverty?

No, they do, but it's still better than, they still consider it better than what they had back

home, probably.

Or maybe I'm wrong about this.

I'm just assuming.

I mean, okay, so, like, I come from Canada.

I think, like, whether you want to

consider what's happening in Canada, like, mass

segregation, like, a lot of people would.

But, like, a lot of people come here

and they're, like, kind of, like,

stuck, I guess. Like, they don't, like, have, like,

the resources to go back or

whatever, but obviously

yes, like, you are right in that

a lot of people do find better jobs. But what I'm

saying, sorry, is that

obviously undocumented immigrants

have a lot less of a voice in civil society.

So I think it would be a particularly good opportunity for the ACP to focus on empowering undocumented immigrants.

They can't be empowered because they don't have leverage.

What's to stop the state from just deporting them I mean like

absolutely nothing but

like you're right they have no leverage

but like the ACP's

looking to like build like a mass movement is it not

yeah a mass movement is it not?

Yeah, a mass movement of the actual national majority who has a stake

in the country but

people who have no rights

and who are you know not

recognized as citizens, how could we defend them

on what basis?

We'd have to go to war. We'd have to start an armed struggle and overthrow the state or something.

Like immediately. And then we'd fail, by the way.

So, like, on what basis could we defend them we couldn't i mean uh say what you want but the working class

of an american working class the native one or whatever they can't just be deported if even a single

one of them was deported it would cause

social instability they say

well if this is a violation of our rights

you can't do this you know we have

it would it would stir the pot so to speak

but if undocumented immigrant

is just deported it's well you know

but does this not go backwards from what you were saying undocumented immigrant is just deported. It's, well, you know.

But does this not go backwards from what you were saying earlier that, like, if undocumented immigrants wanted to contribute to, like, revolutionary struggle, they'd be, like, welcome to?

Yeah, I don't see why not, but I'm just saying like why we have no reason to count on that

Is what I'm saying right. It's not gonna be like a strong basis that where we should look for support whereas the